Juggernaut/Guardian tanks Could use a Threat buff

[Dragonexadon]

I really wish bioware would look at this and hope someone brings it up at the guild summit

 

Jedi Knight Guardians are the class I wanted to play at day 1. I don't understand why our threat generation is the lowest , as well as our dps, and our survivability compared to the 3 other tanking classes.

 

I remember on many of Q and As where they said any class that speced tanking would be just as good as any other. Yet this is very far from the truth

 

I love this game, I know how to play my class, and I am frustrated that my choices are to "reroll" if I want to be decent

[SuperSair]

TANKS could use a threat buff.

 

WoW threat is +300%, SWToR threat is +50% generation for tanks. That's a huge difference. Sure, WoW threat is now reduced to the point of easy mode non-existence but it sure puts it in perspective as to the difference. I'm not saying we need a drastic increase, but we do need a increase, another 50-75% would do the trick.

 

DPS threat increases as they get gear, Tank threat doesn't, at least not anywhere to the degree it does for DPS. Vengeance eventually solved that problem for WoW by making a tank's threat scale with the content(and their health pool to a degree) based on the damage they recieved, but until BioWare can solve it in their own way, a increase in threat generation is necessary.

Edited February 17, 2012 by SuperSair

[GarfieldJL]

I think the rate of Guardians/Jugs dieing will go up significantly because I don't think the class can handle the increased pummelling.

 

Guardian/Juggernaut tanks are the weakest in game from an offensive and defensive standpoint.

[truevalon]

Agreed 120%

 

50% threat bonus in general is not good enough when you take endgame scaling into account. Tank threat from rating 116 gear to 140 gear gets only a small boost, while the dps from dps specs skyrockets.

 

Just to repeat some points I've tried to make before;

 

1. The Defense tree is poorly designed as too many talents are tailored towards countering the focus penalty from Soresu form instead of boosting threat/survivability

 

2. JK abilities in general are on a too long cooldown. This severly hampers JK threat as the defense tree does not offer any cooldown reduction.

 

3. Where as shadow and vanguards have a wide array of tech and force attack that; ignores defense, ignores armor, not affected by shield or cannot miss, most of guardians attacks are subject to all of these. Also giving guardians a threat disadvantage compared to other tanks.

[TKMaster]

Quoted for truth

 

If you go back over the WoW patches and look at threat it has always been a changing issue. Don't you think the wisdom of such a development team as theirs would have GOOD REASON to set threat levels to 600% for a patch or two? (lol you can read that in so many ways, gg blizzard)

 

Yes 6 years worth...not 2 months.

[bahugboto]

Go vigilance, and 'trust' me, it gets the job done. Normal WZ I always get about 8-9 medals (after water nerf) and can easily take down healers and tanks.

 

Vengeance//vigilance is the PvP spec for me.

 

I am actually playing 12/29 hybrid build and can easily farm 9-12 medals in pub games even after the heal nerf, but like i said that is not the point, any other class could do the same if their main purpose is to farm medals in pub games, it's about balance of classes in PVP, and the utility of a jug in pvp is far inferior to that of a healer, a sorc, a powertech or a shadow, the only other class that is at our level of gimpness are gunslingers, atm. People always use public matches for comparison, but the guys who play pub matches usually aren't that skilled, farming medals is easy, that's not the point of competitive pvp.

Edited February 18, 2012 by bahugboto

[Dragonexadon]

Any chance bioware could comment on this post, just want to see if their numbers confirm what we are saying

[Grange]

I would love if a Dev visited our post here. Even if it was just a standard "we are aware of this" or even a "working as intended".

 

they moved this post which means they must have seen it, but they haven't commented on it.

 

to me the lack of communication is annoying at best....

[Alastairz]

Yes 6 years worth...not 2 months.

 

I don't understand your reply - do you mean that BioWare must start from a blank slate and not look to other tried and tested models to derive any sort of helpful information?

[FrostyDroid]

Guardian/Jugg are WAI. Vanguard/Powertech are not.

[Alastairz]

Threat boost!

[Vid-szhite]

I'm torn. I feel like we do need a threat boost, but I don't want it to become too *easy* to tank either. I like having to work hard.

[Shinkenryu]

I agree and have from the get go noticed my jug had threat issues and while I don't miss the *let my cat play in the keyboard and tank arthas* threat. I'd like to feel more solid as a tank over all. I know I'm not capped yet and I'm hoping that maybe..Just maybe its the gear and not a welp..your not carrying a gun or in cloth so were gonna have to pass situation coming

 

50% I feel from what i've read through various threads seems a bit weak for the high enders with the unknown factors on bosses end game. 75%85% would be good and still leave room for that risky *look away from the screen OH FRICK* moment which are always fun.

 

even with smashes sweeps mob packs my aoe threat at my current level just seems fragile at best

 

Getting a dps pack in a pug to hold 3 seconds is almost impossible. Unfortunately now a days its all GO GO GO GO bah I DIED YOU SUCK /KICK/leave etc responses. Good groups of friends/guildies/roomies? yeah possible..otherwise just a pained experience from what I've gone through and pretty sure lvl 50's prolly not much better as the higher self entitled and better geared players forget the other players didn't pay 500 per month to be BW's in game god moders and free gear to be numba1's.

[Vid-szhite]

At 4) Backhand got 1 min cd, this is one of our best threat generating abilities if you can put 2 consecutives on a target - it helps a lot. Would make it 3 or put it higher so it's not abused by hybrids in pvp, of course the resolve could prevent it but yea.

 

Yeah, but you can't even use Unleash unless you're CC'd or Slowed anyway, so you have no consistent way to control consecutive Backhands except for PvP, where CC/Move Slow is rampant. Not to mention, using it for threat on a Slow means you don't have it for breaking actual CC.

 

Proc it on Enrage and add the talent to Sweeping Fury or Dark Blood. We already use Enrage for threat, and forcing people to spec that far into Immortal for it would kill Hybrids trying to abuse Backhand.

Edited February 20, 2012 by Vid-szhite

[Vid-szhite]

I agree and have from the get go noticed my jug had threat issues and while I don't miss the *let my cat play in the keyboard and tank arthas* threat. I'd like to feel more solid as a tank over all. I know I'm not capped yet and I'm hoping that maybe..Just maybe its the gear and not a welp..your not carrying a gun or in cloth so were gonna have to pass situation coming

 

50% I feel from what i've read through various threads seems a bit weak for the high enders with the unknown factors on bosses end game. 75%85% would be good and still leave room for that risky *look away from the screen OH FRICK* moment which are always fun.

 

even with smashes sweeps mob packs my aoe threat at my current level just seems fragile at best

 

Getting a dps pack in a pug to hold 3 seconds is almost impossible. Unfortunately now a days its all GO GO GO GO bah I DIED YOU SUCK /KICK/leave etc responses. Good groups of friends/guildies/roomies? yeah possible..otherwise just a pained experience from what I've gone through and pretty sure lvl 50's prolly not much better as the higher self entitled and better geared players forget the other players didn't pay 500 per month to be BW's in game god moders and free gear to be numba1's.

 

I've never experienced bad groups like that, but I have experienced inability to hold hate on anything that's immune to taunt and has an Enrage timer. If anyone kicks you or leaves for dying, they're ******es. Even with me and a group of randoms, we'd just re-attempt the fights with a new strategy if we wiped.

 

It's not a matter of slowing down to let you get hate, either. In endgame ops, DPS can't slow down when there's enrage timers, because if they do, the boss will randomly go ape**** and one-shot you, and even if they give you a few seconds, they'll catch up eventually, so if you can't hold the hate, there's nothing you can do to fix it except taunt... and the very first boss of KP is immune to taunt and pretty much can't be tanked (but half of the other bosses require 2 tanks). The only way to increase our hate right now is with better damage, but since none of our gear has damage stats on it, we straight up can't keep up with the DPS. Intercede and Guard only helps so much when there's 6 DPS who are all pulling aggro.

 

Incidentally, Intercede would be a MUCH less unwieldy ability if we had target-of-target.

Edited February 20, 2012 by Vid-szhite

[Locustone]

I've never experienced bad groups like that, but I have experienced inability to hold hate on anything that's immune to taunt and has an Enrage timer. If anyone kicks you or leaves for dying, they're ******es. Even with me and a group of randoms, we'd just re-attempt the fights with a new strategy if we wiped.

 

It's not a matter of slowing down to let you get hate, either. In endgame ops, DPS can't slow down when there's enrage timers, because if they do, the boss will randomly go ape**** and one-shot you, and even if they give you a few seconds, they'll catch up eventually, so if you can't hold the hate, there's nothing you can do to fix it except taunt... and the very first boss of KP is immune to taunt and pretty much can't be tanked (but half of the other bosses require 2 tanks). The only way to increase our hate right now is with better damage, but since none of our gear has damage stats on it, we straight up can't keep up with the DPS. Intercede and Guard only helps so much when there's 6 DPS who are all pulling aggro.

 

Incidentally, Intercede would be a MUCH less unwieldy ability if we had target-of-target.

 

Exactly. I don't understand why the threat issue has not been fixed...

[SirRobin]

Meh... I finally got fed up with my Jug, sad because I am a Vader fan, and rolled a Pow.

[thalanisone]

I'll be honest i'm not having too many problems with jugg tanking, sure its harder than other MMo's but it reminds me of warrior tanking in Vanilla WoW and BC, aoe is ok as long as your dps let you LoS pull and are intelligent enough to only use there single target abilities on the mob you are targeting (wouldnt target of target be great about now? -.-), single target i have noticed i will lose threat every now and then but my taunts are normally off cooldown by then, it keeps me on my toes so i'm enjoying it.

 

That being said they could deffinatly do with a threat boost but i wouldnt say they are game breaking either, the only reason they seem unviable is because other classes have a stronger tanking ability at the moment.

 

as long as they dont give tanks a 500% buff so they can hit once and AFK like WoW did in Cata i couldnt care less how they change the class

Edited February 22, 2012 by thalanisone

[Grange]

Yea i think in general most of us do not want a garuanteed threat lock on mobs.

 

just maybe higher damage or higher threat %'s. I think the easiest buff would be a boost to Soresu but many others in this thread have put forth idea's as well.

 

i tanked in other MMO's like WoW and i also would hate if they went that way and gave us %6000 threat as well. it shouldnt be that easy....

 

Just slightly easier, to bring us in line with the Assasins, and Powertechs of the world.

[Heith]

aoe is ok as long as your dps let you LoS pull and are intelligent enough to only use there single target abilities on the mob you are targeting

 

thats the thing no group wants to be held up because they brought a gimp tank they want a tank that can hold it all and run through stuff

[Zalgred]

Interesting discussion.

 

As a Guardian, fully traited for tanking, i have to agree that we need a buff, skill, miracle, food, etc... to be able to hold aoe agro or a full dps assault in single target.

 

I was thinking about a skill that had a 30 second cooldown that allows the guardian/juggernaut to steal a 25 to 30% of the groups agro.

 

This way we could control the fight without problems, specially with those bosses who clear the agro you have when they disappear.

[Locustone]

Yea i think in general most of us do not want a garuanteed threat lock on mobs.

 

just maybe higher damage or higher threat %'s. I think the easiest buff would be a boost to Soresu but many others in this thread have put forth idea's as well.

 

i tanked in other MMO's like WoW and i also would hate if they went that way and gave us %6000 threat as well. it shouldnt be that easy....

 

Just slightly easier, to bring us in line with the Assasins, and Powertechs of the world.

 

Nobody has said they wanted a guarantee aggro lock except you... If you have exhausted every threat cooldown you have and you still lose aggro to an equally geared dps then there is something rotten in Denmark. I have no problem holding aggro after the first 10-15 seconds of the fight on a single mob as long as I've gone through my rotation well. If there happens to be two well geared dps in the raid one will get my guard the other will not. It is usually the one who doesn't have guard that pulls threat and makes me spam tuants. Can they control their threat? Perhaps, but when there are enrage timers involved losing 15 seconds of dps can mean the difference between a kill and not. Intercede is useless for threat control most of the time when you are tanking a boss as well unless you want to have your raid swiped by the boss due to the leap to target effect.

 

For those immortal juggs who say they have no problem holding threat on multiple targets i'm going to have to call BS on that... No matter how well you work you rotation the aoe damage output of the ops group will allways out threat us at this point. Basically as soon as your aoe taunt falls off you lose 5/7 mobs to aoe threat and you can smash and sweep all you want but your basically sitting helpless watching your team getting beat on. Sure you can choke one, back hand another, interceed, but that still leaves two lose targets and a long cool down on aoe taunt. I'd like to see a video of a BW team working through an operation where they have an immortal jugg keeping agro on an aoe pull...

[Battilea]

For those immortal juggs who say they have no problem holding threat on multiple targets i'm going to have to call BS on that... No matter how well you work you rotation the aoe damage output of the ops group will allways out threat us at this point. Basically as soon as your aoe taunt falls off you lose 5/7 mobs to aoe threat and you can smash and sweep all you want but your basically sitting helpless watching your team getting beat on. Sure you can choke one, back hand another, interceed, but that still leaves two lose targets and a long cool down on aoe taunt. I'd like to see a video of a BW team working through an operation where they have an immortal jugg keeping agro on an aoe pull...

 

To be fair, it doesn't really matter what you are on an AoE pull, the right AoE DPS will pull off you if they want to. My Pyro merc has 4 AoEs that are good and one of them is spammable, bit heat intensive, but I've got Vent Heat and can use one ability for no heat every so often. That spammable one also procs my fire dot, further raising damage. I can also position myself better to hit things with them than the tank can. Easy for me to flamethrower in the tank's direction and hit all the mobs surrounding him. If he tries it, he won't hit the ones to the rear. If I open up, I'm taking aggro on a chunk of the pull unless you taunt. Don't care if you are a BH, Assassin, or Jugg.

 

That said, I do agree that juggs could use a bit of a threat buff. I wonder if, single target, it has to do with the armor debuff, that Juggs essentially generate the same threat as the other tanks, armor buff included, but the DPS with them generate more than they do with the other tanks, thanks to said armor debuff.

[Grange]

Nobody has said they wanted a guarantee aggro lock except you... If you have exhausted every threat cooldown you have and you still lose aggro to an equally geared dps then there is something rotten in Denmark. I have no problem holding aggro after the first 10-15 seconds of the fight on a single mob as long as I've gone through my rotation well. If there happens to be two well geared dps in the raid one will get my guard the other will not. It is usually the one who doesn't have guard that pulls threat and makes me spam tuants. Can they control their threat? Perhaps, but when there are enrage timers involved losing 15 seconds of dps can mean the difference between a kill and not. Intercede is useless for threat control most of the time when you are tanking a boss as well unless you want to have your raid swiped by the boss due to the leap to target effect.

 

For those immortal juggs who say they have no problem holding threat on multiple targets i'm going to have to call BS on that... No matter how well you work you rotation the aoe damage output of the ops group will allways out threat us at this point. Basically as soon as your aoe taunt falls off you lose 5/7 mobs to aoe threat and you can smash and sweep all you want but your basically sitting helpless watching your team getting beat on. Sure you can choke one, back hand another, interceed, but that still leaves two lose targets and a long cool down on aoe taunt. I'd like to see a video of a BW team working through an operation where they have an immortal jugg keeping agro on an aoe pull...

 

woah ok maybe i did word it kind of wrong after your post.

 

maybe i should have read yours more thoroughly i dont want instance lock threat.

 

I have seen other people on other threads say "they should just make it like wow" and i think you and i agree that would be very bad.

 

my bad on this maybe i was misleading. let me be clear, I DO NOT WANT tanking to be faceroll. I just want it to be even or if we are suppose to be better single target tanks then make us better single target tanks. Losing aggro during a key boss mechanic could wipe a raid.

 

And your right with the way enrage timers are asking a dps to throttle back should not be a viable answer.

 

Lets hope we keep this thread going, and hope we see some attention some time soon.

Edited February 28, 2012 by Grange

[Moondragon]

50 Guardian, 31/10/0 (Defense)

Used to run hybrid but then shifted to see how full D runs. From my personal results:

 

Single target threat: I really don't have much problems with. On occasion I will indeed lose threat to the damage dealer. I have 3 different "taunts" to rotate through and Guardian Leap for a little "assist", so I'm ok to reacquire pretty fast.

Group threat: Sad panda. 1 group taunt and then 2 group strikes that will break CC if too close. One of the strikes doesn't even hit all the targets...just a random few (yeaaaah...Cyclone Slash ftw! -_- ). In either case, I really have to work to hold on to 3-4 targets. I don't mind. Keeps me on my toes. Occasionally mates might get dinged for some damage, but I manage to wrangle the mobs in and we're fine.

 

...HOWEVER...

 

Vanguard tank, rolling in the same group as me one day. If I remember correctly, he was 2-3 levels lower. Started off with the Mortar Volley (nice group threat AND damage), used his harpoon maneuver (sorry, don't know Vanguard) and some of his other skills. End result from the multiple multi-mob battles? Only by using Taunt could I break guys off of him...but they soon went back to him. At that moment...I felt a little jaded.

 

Every MMO I've played, I've always used a tank. So I'm used to different patterns, different styles, different "rotations" and I like to try new things. I'm not the best by far...but I am good at my job. That was a kinda heartbreaker. The ease at which that Vanguard could just pull and hold hate, even in mobs. Really made me consider rolling up a Vanguard. Maybe that's by design? I don't know. Maybe I'm missing something that I'm not using properly? Could be. Maybe the Vanguard is SUPPOSED to be a "ultimate tank" with Jedi tanks being "secondary but solid". Couldn't tell ya.

 

Ah well...I'm a glutton for punishment. Playing on a different server and ...rolled another Guardian Tank.

Edited March 5, 2012 by Moondragon