Vader vs Revan

[madswindfeld]

Vader would definitely win.

 

remember he was the chosen one.

and like " The_edge_ender" said: vader let luke win.

and some of you mean he was weaker cause he died by a single force lightning.

but Sidious has the strongest force lightning and he was critical damage by Luke.

[TurokDarkstar]

Darth Vader, because he's awesome. I mean this really is a "who do you like better" veiled question, right? Revan has to much of a fanboy following for me to hop on board. Besides, he didn't really have a personality until swtor came out, and even so I'm not impressed with it.

 

Vader is all business. I don't care about all the prequel/EU malarkey. Vader in the trilogy is just a great character.

[Wolfninjajedi]

You can't truly guage someone in a battle when his emotions are compromised. Vader didn't want to kill his son, and he didn't want to kill his master either... In the end, did he not defeat the most powerful sith to ever live? And all he needed was compassion to motivate him to his true potential.

 

Just out of curiousity... Did Revan ever deflect or absorb blaster bolts with his hands?

 

I doubt Vader ever needed a light saber... Just putting that out there.

 

No jedi/sith ever really needs a lightsaber, their main weapon is the force. If you spend years and years mastering the force, you won't ever need a lightsaber. Sidious didn't need one, he just used a saber to mock the jedi he was beyond using a lightsaber, I would assume the same with Yoda he didn't really need a lightsaber either.

[Castiel]

No jedi/sith ever really needs a lightsaber, their main weapon is the force. If you spend years and years mastering the force, you won't ever need a lightsaber. Sidious didn't need one, he just used a saber to mock the jedi he was beyond using a lightsaber, I would assume the same with Yoda he didn't really need a lightsaber either.

 

Beyond them as in losing a saberfight to Windu? Yeah, makes sense.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Beyond them as in losing a saberfight to Windu? Yeah, makes sense.

 

You realize that Mace only won, because of Vapaad which uses the darkside against the sith right? If Mace had used any other form, he would have been cut down.

[mefit]

No jedi/sith ever really needs a lightsaber, their main weapon is the force. If you spend years and years mastering the force, you won't ever need a lightsaber. Sidious didn't need one, he just used a saber to mock the jedi he was beyond using a lightsaber, I would assume the same with Yoda he didn't really need a lightsaber either.

 

And yet Sidious had lightsabers stashed almost everywhere he went , not to mention that beyond the PT and the Books , EU showed him with a lightsaber manytimes .

Yoda used a Lightsaber in PT and taught Saber combat ..............

 

Seems to me they used them , they just didn't use them often .

Sidious had Apprentices to do his combating for him , not to mention he is one of the first Sithlords who had to get his master drunk and wait till he passed out to kill him . I believe that Sidious was a master at saber combat as well but I am not digging through my books to find it .

[mefit]

You realize that Mace only won, because of Vapaad which uses the darkside against the sith right? If Mace had used any other form, he would have been cut down.

 

So he only won because he knew how to combat someone elses type of Sabercombat? Seriously what sense does that make .............. Of course he won and it was because he was better at it .

Skilled to know how to use his saber to defend against force attacks as well .

 

I have to ask Wolf , are you on vent with the others supposed Canon heros ? You guys use the run around debate form alot lol.

[Girdeux]

You realize that Mace only won, because of Vapaad which uses the darkside against the sith right? If Mace had used any other form, he would have been cut down.

 

Theres a pretty fine line between explaining what happened in the movies using EU material. But this statement crosses it.

 

Mace won because he was the better lightsaber duelist. Period.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Girdeux

[Wolfninjajedi]

So he only won because he knew how to combat someone elses type of Sabercombat? Seriously what sense does that make .............. Of course he won and it was because he was better at it .

Skilled to know how to use his saber to defend against force attacks as well .

 

I have to ask Wolf , are you on vent with the others supposed Canon heros ? You guys use the run around debate form alot lol.

 

Well then how come Windu was struggling to hold back the force lighting?

 

Also no, don't use vent.

 

Mace won because he was the better lightsaber duelist. Period.

 

No duh, where did I say in my post that Windu wasn't?

Edited April 13, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi

[mefit]

Vader would definitely win.

 

remember he was the chosen one.

and like " The_edge_ender" said: vader let luke win.

and some of you mean he was weaker cause he died by a single force lightning.

but Sidious has the strongest force lightning and he was critical damage by Luke.

 

Vadar did let Luke win , I don't care what the INEEDCANONTOBACKMYBADDEBATETROLLS say.

Vadar had a lifetime of training and Luke had what 6 ? If Vadar was ""In It To Win It"" Luke would have been wishing he was "Just a Farmer" and never listened to that oldcoot Ben and his crazy JediTalk.

Edited April 13, 2012 by mefit

[mefit]

Well then how come Windu was struggling to hold back the force lighting?

 

Also no, don't use vent.

 

 

 

No duh, where did I say in my post that Windu wasn't?

 

Sure he was struggling to hold back Force Lighting , after all Sidious was the most powerful skilled user of it . Sidious was just outmatched by Saber Combat, and that says alot because Sidious was a very good lightsaber combater . He used forcespeed to increasee his ability with a lightsaber while Anakin was still in his moms tummy and no one cared for Luke ......

 

Edit : You didn't you said " Mace only won due to knowing a form to combat Sidious's form."

Run around debate as always but give you a A in getting me to feedya

Edited April 13, 2012 by mefit

[mefit]

Ok on to the next Edited April 13, 2012 by mefit

[Girdeux]

Well then how come Windu was struggling to hold back the force lighting?

 

Also no, don't use vent.

 

 

 

No duh, where did I say in my post that Windu wasn't?

 

Windu was struggling sure. Lucas also says he was deflecting Sidious's lightning and Sidious had to exaggerate his weakness to turn over Anakin to kill Windu. Also mentioning Sidious was straining so much energy while melting his face off...hmmm

 

Your saying Mace only won because of his "special ability"...Something thats never mentioned by lucas or the movies. Clearly EU crap of an explanation.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Girdeux

[_Zorth_]

Vadar did let Luke win , I don't care what the INEEDCANONTOBACKMYBADDEBATETROLLS say.

Vadar had a lifetime of training and Luke had what 6 ? If Vadar was ""In It To Win It"" Luke would have been wishing he was "Just a Farmer" and never listened to that oldcoot Ben and his crazy JediTalk.

 

 

Your thoughts betray you, Father. I feel the good in you, the conflict.

 

~ Luke when facing Vader, He sensed the conflict within DArth Vader and knew that Vader could not bring himself to kill his own son.

 

Oh and it's VadEr, not Vadar.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Sure he was struggling to hold back Force Lighting , after all Sidious was the most powerful skilled user of it . Sidious was just outmatched by Saber Combat, and that says alot because Sidious was a very good lightsaber combater . He used forcespeed to increasee his ability with a lightsaber while Anakin was still in his moms tummy and no one cared for Luke ......

 

Edit : You didn't you said " Mace only won due to knowing a form to combat Sidious's form."

Run around debate as always but give you a A in getting me to feedya

 

Ya I know....which made Mace the better duelist in the fight. Because he was using a form, that Sidious had never seen before and was a master of said form so he was the better duelist in the fight. I ain't arguing that.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi

[Castiel]

You realize that Mace only won, because of Vapaad which uses the darkside against the sith right? If Mace had used any other form, he would have been cut down.

 

.................

[Rayla_Felana]

.................

 

He was the better duellist because of the form he invented, what is so hard to comprehend here?

[Castiel]

He was the better duellist because of the form he invented, what is so hard to comprehend here?

 

I said Sidious wasn't better than any given Jedi with a saber, since he lost to Windu. He basically told me in reply that Windu won because he won... You guys are really overexerting yourselves on this fanboyism of yours...

[mefit]

Your thoughts betray you, Father. I feel the good in you, the conflict.

 

~ Luke when facing Vader, He sensed the conflict within DArth Vader and knew that Vader could not bring himself to kill his own son.

 

Oh and it's VadEr, not Vadar.

 

You know I know it is Vad"E"r but I do seem to keep typing Vad"Ar" ..................

[ReiKai]

Give us some examples?

 

Pretty much everything that spews out of Sid's mouth is a lie. It's what he's most known for. You want more examples, all you ever have to do is pick up any book that has him in it.

 

Again, examples?

 

Meetra and Scourge gettin beatin by an old Dark Council member, until Revan stands up, with full memory, absorbs a half dozen bolts of Force Lightning, then returns to sender with greater power and turns her into dead charred husk.

 

The Golden Age was during the clone wars era..

Which is inbetween EP2 & EP3, enough with the bullcrap.

 

No, that marked the end of it. Because they were dying. Jedi were getting killed, the peace was broken, people started to stop believing in them, distrusting them. Some Jedi, like that 4armed guy in TCW, were breaking allegiances. Their golden age was over. Everything was downhill the entire war.

 

Sidious = Most powerful sith to ever exist..

 

Vader's Potential = 200% of that

 

Vader's prime = 80% of Sidious, Which is ALOT OF POWER.

 

1. Hyperbole.

2. Irrelevant

3. Further irrelevance since you can't quantify it. For all Anyone knows, Revan could be 99% Sidous. Will we ever know? No, because Nobody cares about those figures.

 

Are you saying that Revan had more potential than the chosen one of the force?

Source?

 

I'm not saying that. Jedi Masters were saying that -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BB4KaWJML9g

 

Was he THE master of Djem So?

 

He was -The- master of Everything. Because when he was done, the Jedi had nothing more they could teach him. Also, Djem So isn't a mobile combat form. It's an Agressive form focusing in brute force and powerful attacks. And it's Common Knowledge that Vader lost a lot of his mobility in the suit.

 

No he has not, He is jedi one moment then sith the other. Loads of force users have tried both paths, Revan was confused and did not know which one to pick. Nothing impressive there.

 

Uh, no. Revan was the most powerful Jedi of the order, then got tainted by Vitiate and become a Sith Lord, one who ended up having more knowledge put into a failing holocron than Darth Bane could've discovered in the entire Sith Library on Korriban. Then it took the entire Jedi Council to mind wipe him, which failed as he regained his memories later. Revan is both Jedi and Sith and he has a unique perspective. He is not confused in the slightest.

 

How does that help him?

What lightsaber form is he a master of?.. none

 

Do you think mastering one lightsaber form has any meaning to it at all? Bane was a master of Djem So and, unlike Vader, didn't have any cybernetic parts, so his mobility didn't suffer. And Darth Zannah was still able to fend him off using Soresu. Jedi/Sith tend to use their Preferred Style, that doesn't mean they are Limited to it. Revan, like any Intelligent person, studdied and mastered all of the lightsaber forms.

 

One achieved true Balance in the Force. The other was a bad*** in black armor and an evil looking helmet. Now, who has the better beard?

 

Vader never had a beard. Heck, Anakin never even had peach fuzz. Revan has a scruffy beard. So Revan wins that one.

 

Just out of curiousity... Did Revan ever deflect or absorb blaster bolts with his hands?

 

In game? Yes. Because it was an ability. In Novel? He dodged, deflected, absorbed and redirected Force Lightning. That's even better.

 

Sure he was struggling to hold back Force Lighting , after all Sidious was the most powerful skilled user of it .

 

Untrue. George may cling to his "Sid is most powerful sith ever" crap, but that doesn't mean his Force Lightning was the strongest. Someone actually did a comparison. In one comic we have Sid using 7 steams of Force Lightning. In the Revan novel, the Sith Emperor (Vitiate) is using twelve streams of Force Lightning.

[SerikFox]

If these guys fought in a fierce battle at their prime, who would win?

 

I think vader because he has 8 pack and stronger arms.

 

Before he was injured on mustafar, Vader. After, Revan. Think of Revan as Galen Marek - vader wouldn't stand a chance against him when he couldn't move fast enough (keep in mind that the entire jedi order was cowed by Malak, and Revan came on the starforge, killed tons of sith and force empowered droids, then beat Malak at Malak's absolute strongest, and flew away and lived). However, if it was before Vader was injured, then Vader. I love Revan, but not even close. Anakin lost to Obi-wan for 3 reasons: reason #1 (the most important one) the dark side draws it's power from emotion and passion - Obi-wan was Anakin's mentor, Anakin had just stranged his wife, and he thought his wife and his mentor had conspired to kill him. On top of that, he though the entire jedi order had conspired to kill Palpatine and take over the republic. Needless to say, Anakin's emotions were pretty messed up at that point - he was not at his best. Reason #2: Obi-wan and Anakin were well tuned to how each other fought. They sparred, they fought together, etc. Anakin, being emotionally upset and all (aka, not thinking clearly) was against the jedi master known for winning impossible fights through tactical advantage, who also happened to know every detail of how Anakin fought. Reason #3: Obi-wan was regarded as the greatest master of Soresu. No one was said to equal his skill at it. So essentially, he could outlast almost anyone in a fight. Shien (Anakin's form) was the second most physically intensive form of all, fighting against Soresu, the least physically intensive form. Anakin, being prone to using his lightsaber before the force as a weapon, had trouble overwhelming Obi-wan. However, if Anakin had unleashed on Obi-wan with the force, then Palpatine would not have been the emperor for very long. Basically, Obi-wan barely won the fight and he had every single possible advantage in the world working for him in the fight. When Yoda said "you are not strong enough to face the emperor" to Obi-wan, he really meant "I stand a chance against the emperor - Anakin would **** my face so hard that my great grand kids would say ouch". Even Revan couldn't have beaten Anakin at that point - literally, the only person who could beat Anakin was Obi-wan. After Obi-wan beat him though, a bunch of people would have been capable of beating him (although not that many still - only the incredible powerful ones like Luke or Galen or Revan - most would simply die).

[Aetiuss]

first, let me say that this is an excellent topic!

 

however, I do not feel we can make a fair decision as to which is better. Simply put, Revan is still very much an enigma when compared to all the material about Vader. Sure, Revan is mentioned frequently, and even appeared in some books and comics. But to compare those with the utter colossus of writing that exists about Vader? Not even a fraction.

 

Furthermore, Revan is not dead yet in the old republic story. We don't know what happened to him, only that he disappeared. Therefore, there is still much, much more he is capable of at this time. His full abilities can only be fairly judged once we have a confirmed death, one he won't be walking away from. Only then can we begin to make a reasonable comparison of vader and Revan. Only then will we have a definitive beginning and end point with which to work from.

 

 

However, I will say this:

 

in KOTOR II, Kriea tells meetra Surik that the current force users and lightsaber wielders are like children compared to the ancient sith. It is a stretch, and not one that can be confirmed by any real means, but it is possible that such a decline in mystic and martial prowess has continued well into the reign of Palpatine and Vader.

 

I also do not feel Palpatine is the most powerful Sith Lord. He was far more powerful than nearly any force user at the time and probably more powerful than any since Bane, but I do not think he surpasses some of the older sith. He had incredible foresight and understanding of the future (one theory I`ve read is, similar to revan, Palpatine organized a takeover to build a militarily strong galaxy in preparation for a coming threat [Revan's being the true sith empire and Palpatine's the Yuuzahn Vong]).

 

As for Vader, he gets a bit of a bad rep for the FU games. however, remember that Vader was clearly powerful enough (and scholarly enough to continue training even after falling to the DS) to live on as a "force ghost" like Obi-Wan and Yoda, as shown at the end of Episode Six. That alone is a testiment to his power. This is another reason why I feel a comprison of Vader and Revan is incomplete until Revan's confirmed death, because we can't yet know if Revan has the capacity to become a force ghost. Only time shall tell.

 

Personally, I want to cheer for Revan, largely because of how captivating he is with his force neutrality and mysteriousness (even since the first KOTOR he's been a fascinating enigma, saying not a word, having no visible identity beyond his robes and his mask). However, I fully acknowledge Vader's great powers. it would surely be a titanic battle, one well worth watching.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Aetiuss

[_Zorth_]

first, let me say that this is an excellent topic!

 

however, I do not feel we can make a fair decision as to which is better. Simply put, Revan is still very much an enigma when compared to all the material about Vader. Sure, Revan is mentioned frequently, and even appeared in some books and comics. But to compare those with the utter colossus of writing that exists about Vader? Not even a fraction.

 

Furthermore, Revan is not dead yet in the old republic story. We don't know what happened to him, only that he disappeared. Therefore, there is still much, much more he is capable of at this time. His full abilities can only be fairly judged once we have a confirmed death, one he won't be walking away from. Only then can we begin to make a reasonable comparison of vader and Revan. Only then will we have a definitive beginning and end point with which to work from.

 

 

However, I will say this:

 

in KOTOR II, Kriea tells meetra Surik that the current force users and lightsaber wielders are like children compared to the ancient sith. It is a stretch, and not one that can be confirmed by any real means, but it is possible that such a decline in mystic and martial prowess has continued well into the reign of Palpatine and Vader.

 

I also do not feel Palpatine is the most powerful Sith Lord. He was far more powerful than nearly any force user at the time and probably more powerful than any since Bane, but I do not think he surpasses some of the older sith. He had incredible foresight and understanding of the future (one theory I`ve read is, similar to revan, Palpatine organized a takeover to build a militarily strong galaxy in preparation for a coming threat [Revan's being the true sith empire and Palpatine's the Yuuzahn Vong]).

 

As for Vader, he gets a bit of a bad rep for the FU games. however, remember that Vader was clearly powerful enough (and scholarly enough to continue training even after falling to the DS) to live on as a "force ghost" like Obi-Wan and Yoda, as shown at the end of Episode Six. That alone is a testiment to his power. This is another reason why I feel a comprison of Vader and Revan is incomplete until Revan's confirmed death, because we can't yet know if Revan has the capacity to become a force ghost. Only time shall tell.

 

Personally, I want to cheer for Revan, largely because of how captivating he is with his force neutrality and mysteriousness (even since the first KOTOR he's been a fascinating enigma, saying not a word, having no visible identity beyond his robes and his mask). However, I fully acknowledge Vader's great powers. it would surely be a titanic battle, one well worth watching.

 

Canon is that Kreia is a liar, The golden age of the jedi was during the clone wars..

Canon is that Sidious is the most powerful sith lord ever to exist, near godlike and Vader is 80% of that.

Canon is that Revan may have saved the galaxy from his own mistakes, but he never faced opponents or even won over opponents that are on teh power level of Vader, Palpatine, Luke, Dooku and all the other guys from the movie era.

[Anthonysison]

How could you not say Revan? He mastered the light side and dark side. Anakin didn't know squat about the light side, and he was strong in the force, but he didn't master every aspect of it obviously.

[Castiel]

Canon is that Kreia is a liar, The golden age of the jedi was during the clone wars..

Canon is that Sidious is the most powerful sith lord ever to exist, near godlike and Vader is 80% of that.

Canon is that Revan may have saved the galaxy from his own mistakes, but he never faced opponents or even won over opponents that are on teh power level of Vader, Palpatine, Luke, Dooku and all the other guys from the movie era.

 

Canon this canon that. Seriously ? It's the lamest argument any mindless drone could spew out. Give it a rest, none of us care.