Guardian/Juggernaut - lowest PvP survivability of ALL classes?

[Comfterbilly]

If you cant kill anyone on a juggernaut/guardian its a you problem not a class problem.

 

Oh I definitely can - outside the war zones. Real stat to real stat, no PVP problem. ADJUSTED-stat to adjusted-stat, there's a significant difference. Warzone desingers transfer DPS players damage traits - heck they amplify it. They do not transfer the tanks attributes accurately from PVE to PVP.

 

I'll smash other players outside the warzones.

[toastmuffin]

i'll trade you kolto overload for your saber ward.

[BobaFurz]

This is a question I pose to the community because it certainly feels that way to me, which is odd, since you'd think a tankable class might have some pretty decent PvP survivability.

 

Yet so far I've played 3 classes in PvP. The Guardian is by far the most progressed (full Champion gear) and yet I die about twice as much with him per warzone than I do with my Sage or Operative.

 

Sure, they deal good damage as Focus specced but they literally only have Blade ward as a mitigation cooldown which in itself is pretty weak in PvP. Aside from that, Enure isn't a mitigation ability and pretty useless in most situations since you drop dead at the end of it.

 

Even a Sentinel/Marauder has more Pvp survivability since they have brief invisibility, short invulnerability and Blade Ward as well.

 

Sages can self heal, sprint, knockback on a fsirly short CD...all good tools to stay alive.

 

 

Guardians on the other hand have nothing to escape a fight. Once they drop to low HP, they're essentially a free kill with very little they can do about it, unless they somehow get out of combat (which is hardly viable in most scenarios).

 

Melees are always going to be the most obvious target to go for since they're always in range of everyone and tend to attract a lot of attention. They need adequate mitigation/survivability to accommodate for this play-style. The tools Guardians/Juggernauts are given in that regards simply aren't good enough.

 

You played before a Sage:

 

Well first it is great that you try other classes aswell and it is always good to see the other side of pvp, means range <> close combat. A sage is a ranged class and of course you will die less, since you are more flexible. You have the option to escape.

 

You played a an Op:

 

With an op you have to select your targets, so I guess you didnt just go into a group and start smashing around. Besides that you have vanish and when you are close to die, you just have a very powerfull escape mechanism.

 

 

Of course you die a lot more with a pure melee class, not only because your are limited with some sort of escape tactic but you are also soak in all the CC which is flowing around in this game without any diminishing returns and just a lousy resolve bar. Besides that warrior classes are rare and there is a reason why people play more ranged classes in this game...since you are playing a sage, try a BH aswell and you will find the answer for it.

Edited February 12, 2012 by BobaFurz

[JefferyClark]

only a dps merc is squishier imo.

 

dps guardians aren't supposed to be tanky though, so i don't see the problem.

 

The problem with dps Guards/Jugs is that our dps isn't making up for our lack of survivability, plus the fact that we have to be in melee range for 99% of our attacks means that yeah, we should survive more than a ranged dps.

 

Signed. My objection about juggernaut survivability is that even when the other team doesn't have a healer you can barely kill anybody, and even though you're a tank, DPS classes slice right through you while you can barely hurt them.

 

They haven't calibrated things right in the WZ's. When they equalize everybody's stats for huttball they somehow manage to carry over DPS player damage without managing to carry over tank damage mitigation - but they DO carry over tank's low DPS - to the extreme.

 

What/whichever way they have balanced stat-equalization for WZ PVP, they have calibrated tanks w-r-o-n-g.

 

However, beware, DPS classes (especially on the republic side): outside the WZ's on my PVP server, real stat to real stat, us tanks will likely stomp ya

 

Exactly right. In the real world, outside of warzones, I can stomp and be stomped. In warzones, I can only stomp if I have support in the form of a decoy target and/or a healer. We simply do not have the dps to make up for our squishyness (even in tank spec).

Edited February 12, 2012 by JefferyClark

[Loxion]

the advantage of tank-able classes in pvp is...surprise, surprise - being able to tank. (just isn't that obvious right now because hybrid PTs and vanguards are overpowered so those specs are more popuilar. And assassins are in a very good place in dps/hybrid spec as well)

 

The reason hybrid / dps specs are more popular is because they are the only viable PvP spec. Speccing tank is a massive waste of points (as a Vanguard) simpley because your shield and def chance (main attributes for the tank spec) only proc against a very small percentage of the attacks that you will receive. The only real mitigation they have is armour and they can have that same mitigation in a DPS / hybrid spec and have the bonus of higher damage and mobility.

[info_man]

Not to be elite but if you're a jug with 14k hp...theres a reason you're dying quickly, and its not the classes fault. I say this only because I see countless jugs on my server with this. Granted I'm no elite player, my HP is only 19k but I survive just fine.

 

Honestly I think I survive longer then most classes, aside maybe trooper healers who just seem to live forever in my eyes. Alot of times I end up guarding the other door or turret myself without aid and can last long enough vs a few people while spamming "inc" over and over until others come to help defend. Its a good strat on my server and works well.

 

I just run into a battlefield, spam my aoe Taunt and my incap taunt incase the others down and do my best to hinder other peoples battles against my teammates. It's not exactly a fun job because I'm not killing countless people (although I kill a few) but I'd like to think I do my job.

 

If our job in the game is to last and keep others alive while looking like an annoying player the other team has to kill asap before I hinder more...I'm doing my job quite well.

 

Also I will say a problem for you might be if youhave guard on someone...run into a large battlefield with alot of people...it will **** you. You're not only taking damage from everyone directly, but for your teammate as well.

[Swordsaintt]

Fun fact.

 

Bounty Hunters/Troopers have no useful mitigation cooldowns in Tank Spec.

 

In fact, Minus Healing Mercs/Commandos, these ACs have the WORST survivability.

 

Fun Fact: Bounty Hunters/Troopers have ranged abilities which means no matter what they take less damage. I find it sad that I'd have to explain this to people after nearly 12 years of MMO history.

 

A DPS melee class needs to jump into the action and can be instantly focus fired to death. They need some damage mitigation for the balance or one shot type of damage to be viable in a pvp setting. It's just math bro you should look into it. It also takes more skill to play a melee class because it also requires a lot more movement.

[KyoMamoru]

Juggernauts are more about their taunts, than their raw defensive abilities. You make everyone in your ops group live longer, even if you aren't in your tank spec. Intercede and taunts should always be on CD.

[Loxion]

Fun Fact: Bounty Hunters/Troopers have ranged abilities which means no matter what they take less damage. I find it sad that I'd have to explain this to people after nearly 12 years of MMO history.

 

No matter what eh?

 

So if a Trooper is focused by 3 marauders he takes less damage than a guardian focused by the same 3 marauders?

 

Ranged DPS classes are generally squishier and that is how it should be, unfortunately this isn't always the case in SWTOR with DPS built Vanguards for example. Personally I think ION Cell (and Imperial equivelant) should be part of the tank tree not a Vanguard specific skill. If you choose to go down a DPS route you should not have access to significant tanking abilities and ION cell is the primary tanking skill in PvP.

 

The problem with that, as it currently stands, is that ION cell would need to be reasonably high up the tree which would significantly hinder low level tanks for FP etc.

Edited February 12, 2012 by Loxion

[Dee-Jay]

I think people that complain about this want to be all out DPS speced in a DPS stance. They also want to tunneling and always pushing. They want better survivability so they can continue their bad playing habits and not get killed a lot.

 

So wait, it's ok for Marauders, who fulfill the same PvP role as a Focus specced Guardian (some may even play the same spec) to have pretty decent PvP survivability while Guardians have to "deal with it"?

 

That seems like awfully poor design.

 

All I'm really asking is that DPS Guardian survivability is made on-par with Marauder survivability. Because currently it isn't.

[Idockdudes]

So wait, it's ok for Marauders, who fulfill the same PvP role as a Focus specced Guardian (some may even play the same spec) to have pretty decent PvP survivability while Guardians have to "deal with it"?

 

That seems like awfully poor design.

 

All I'm really asking is that DPS Guardian survivability is made on-par with Marauder survivability. Because currently it isn't.

 

Thats not really what Im saying. What I am saying is its possible to have decent survivability as a DPS speced Guardian. Its really kind of hard to tell the exact issues you are having, some of it might be the way you play.

 

The other part may be the way you are speced. Guardians/Juggs are built to get more DPS the more survivability they give up. Thats not how marauders work, they have defensive CDs and thats their survivability. The only choices they make are how to do damage.

 

In other words if the highest output DPS speced Guardian had the same survivability as a Sentinel, then the most Defensive speced Guardian would probably have way too much.

 

They are different classes though and its hard to compare them. Stop worrying about what other classes may or may not have over you and just do what works for your class.

[Jabbb]

As a pyro PT all I can say is boo *********** hoo. PTs are just as squishy as Juggs in dps spec, but you know what Juggs do differently? They leap at enemies and get themselves into **** and then wonder why they die. Play more defensively and pick your battles if you're gonna be dps. If you wanna be tanky, roll tank spec.

[Jabbb]

No matter what eh?

 

So if a Trooper is focused by 3 marauders he takes less damage than a guardian focused by the same 3 marauders?

 

Ranged DPS classes are generally squishier and that is how it should be, unfortunately this isn't always the case in SWTOR with DPS built Vanguards for example. Personally I think ION Cell (and Imperial equivelant) should be part of the tank tree not a Vanguard specific skill. If you choose to go down a DPS route you should not have access to significant tanking abilities and ION cell is the primary tanking skill in PvP.

 

The problem with that, as it currently stands, is that ION cell would need to be reasonably high up the tree which would significantly hinder low level tanks for FP etc.

 

Dps vanguards are mostly melee, noob. Also Ion cell removes the ability to snare in pyro spec unless you're the hybrid spec in which case your damage is greatly reduced. A DPS VG won't use ion cell unless he never wants to hit anything.

[Geewiz]

I think the problem might be too many classes have armor piercing attacks, or internal type damage.

 

We cant mitigate that, and once out cooldowns are down, we are toast.

[mdkmaster]

Vigilence specced guardian.

Level 50.

Mostly champion gear.

50.35% raw damage mitigation in soresu.

I use guard.

Occassionally I am focus starved, but not frequently.

I am constantly higher than average for damage, and mitigation on the boards.

I can achieve 7-10 medals with moderate work.

I am bored enough with the game, that i've moved to skill clicking, no change in damage output, medals or defensive capabilities.

I survive quite well in normal pvp circumstances.

Under focus fire...I die.

I'm not an elite player, barely good from my perspective.

I'm not seeing any major issues with this class, except the focus bomber build...which in all honesty does need toned down abit, and the entire focus tree balanced abit.

I do believe that they may need abit of a tweak as far as what armor/shield/absorb affects or is affected by, but nothing drastic.

Otherwise, complaining about the only middle of the road class is moderately pointless.

[Comfterbilly]

I think the problem might be too many classes have armor piercing attacks, or internal type damage.

 

We cant mitigate that, and once out cooldowns are down, we are toast.

 

My complaint is that they just have not transposed the tank's class to PVP in such a way that he arrives in the war zone able to play the role of a tank.

 

Meanwhile they have over-amplified the transposition of other class's traits.

 

1. Healers: they should definitely be able to significantly affect the outcome of a WZ, but having a healer on my team vs. a team with no healer should still fall short of making my team practically immortal. I watch in Voidstar, three or four players on a group without a healer will be trying to kill, say, one level 19 trooper and a lot of times they still can't do it even as described focusing all their attention on one player of a class not particularly known for being resilient. The healer should still be a significant advantage, even a very significant advantage, but near-immortality is a little much.

 

2. DPS classes in a war zone pretty much come at you with all the resilience of a tank and more; in a WZ where neither team has a healer, a tank will attack a marauder while barely damaging them at all - the DPS class has been transposed in such a way that their resilience buff outperforms your tank's damage nerf. But the tank's armor and damage resistance have not been transposed in such a way that he is able to mitigate or equalize the marauder's attacks.

 

Outside the war zones under true-stats this is not the case, and that's why WZ transpositions are a problem for tanks in this game.

[Dee-Jay]

Thats not really what Im saying. What I am saying is its possible to have decent survivability as a DPS speced Guardian. Its really kind of hard to tell the exact issues you are having, some of it might be the way you play.

 

The other part may be the way you are speced. Guardians/Juggs are built to get more DPS the more survivability they give up. Thats not how marauders work, they have defensive CDs and thats their survivability. The only choices they make are how to do damage.

 

In other words if the highest output DPS speced Guardian had the same survivability as a Sentinel, then the most Defensive speced Guardian would probably have way too much.

 

They are different classes though and its hard to compare them. Stop worrying about what other classes may or may not have over you and just do what works for your class.

 

What a bunch of BS.

 

Why do you act like you have some sort of "insight" into how each tree was designed?

 

What you are spouting out about Guardians giving up survivability for damage makes no sense whatsoever, especially in a PvP environment.

 

DPS Guardians die more frequently and easier than any other class in game. That's pretty much a fact. Part of that is because they are melee and this get targeted more often, but it's also because they have very little in the way of active suvivability.

 

They simply lack the tools to survive. It has nothing to do with "sacrificing" survivability for DPS. It's simply an oversight.

 

Just look at how the Focus and Vigilance trees are designed. They have very little in the way of added survivability.

[EduardoJN]

Who said your goal is to survive?

 

I have a lvl 50 guardian and sometimes my role is to essentialy die in order to delay the enemy, distract someone or hold the line until reiforcements arrives.

 

Your guardian/juggernaut doesnt have to be Conan, the Barbarian, slashing through the enemy lines with a knife between his teeth and surviving after that.

 

You gotta stick to the objective of the game (cap the ball, the door or the turret), who cares if you die or not?

 

Respawn and charge again.

 

If your talking about 1x1, if u have a nice geared guardian, it will be hard to take u down.

[Howbadisbad]

Scoundrels have less survivability tbh.

 

They can get away once every 2 minutes. Other than that, they melt like butter.

[Alizaro]

I play a dps Jug. Every other day I remind myself I should probably be playing the tank spec but in the end it's only one more defensive cooldown and you lose so much for the sacrifice

 

I've found with either vigilance or rage spec you've just got to stance dance but quite honestly I'm mostly in soresu which starves you for rage at times but the vigilance tree that gives you 4 rage when are cc'd keeps you alright most the time.

 

I agree with some of the sentinent here. I think the reason we get beat up so hard is simply because they can. Why not take out the guy with the potential to guard a healer and aoe taunt?

 

You feel like a huge ragdoll getting knocked around, locked up. I'm only shy 2 pieces of full bm gear armor wise and sitting at 15.5k. Problem is if you go with the defensive gear you're wasting stat on defense that is largely wasted in pvp. IMO if you can't dps as a jug you're wasted. Yeah you can play healer guard but they hardly die anyway with more than one and then you're damage starved.

 

I don't think the class needs a huge buff but I think if they removed the need to be in an offensive stance to receive rage gaining bonuses and tossed a little more endurance in the pvp armor it'd go a long way to making us something other than the obvious punching bags.

 

I do agree many including myself go charging in like idiots but with this class you sometimes feel like you best do as much damage for your team as possible if dps spec because you sure aren't guarding any single person for long. Just throwing out taunts religiously is only gonna give you about 20 or 30 k in most wz.

 

I definitely continue to learn things almost daily but the class does still need a bit of attention imo.

Edited February 17, 2012 by Alizaro

[Golarz]

This is a question I pose to the community because it certainly feels that way to me, which is odd, since you'd think a tankable class might have some pretty decent PvP survivability.

 

Yet so far I've played 3 classes in PvP. The Guardian is by far the most progressed (full Champion gear) and yet I die about twice as much with him per warzone than I do with my Sage or Operative.

 

Sure, they deal good damage as Focus specced but they literally only have Blade ward as a mitigation cooldown which in itself is pretty weak in PvP. Aside from that, Enure isn't a mitigation ability and pretty useless in most situations since you drop dead at the end of it.

 

Even a Sentinel/Marauder has more Pvp survivability since they have brief invisibility, short invulnerability and Blade Ward as well.

 

Sages can self heal, sprint, knockback on a fsirly short CD...all good tools to stay alive.

 

 

Guardians on the other hand have nothing to escape a fight. Once they drop to low HP, they're essentially a free kill with very little they can do about it, unless they somehow get out of combat (which is hardly viable in most scenarios).

 

Melees are always going to be the most obvious target to go for since they're always in range of everyone and tend to attract a lot of attention. They need adequate mitigation/survivability to accommodate for this play-style. The tools Guardians/Juggernauts are given in that regards simply aren't good enough.

 

Yeah, give a tank all tools dps have.

Spec as a tank! Play Your role.

[raccomedia]

Yeah, give a tank all tools dps have.

Spec as a tank! Play Your role.

 

pls tell me what does make the defense tree so special that we magically get more survivability. warding call is nice but 3min cd for 10seconds of 40% less damage doesn't make us tanks in pvp all of the sudden, the blade storm blade barrier is another joke that doesn't compare to the defensive skills other classes get.

 

the defense tree is a pve spec and every guardian that is running around in pvp with that spec is simply hurting his team, that tiny bit of survivability (which does nothing when you get focused) and control you get with the tree isn't worth the bad dps you have to live with.

[Khabarach]

pls tell me what does make the defense tree so special that we magically get more survivability. warding call is nice but 3min cd for 10seconds of 40% less damage doesn't make us tanks in pvp all of the sudden, the blade storm blade barrier is another joke that doesn't compare to the defensive skills other classes get.

 

the defense tree is a pve spec and every guardian that is running around in pvp with that spec is simply hurting his team, that tiny bit of survivability (which does nothing when you get focused) and control you get with the tree isn't worth the bad dps you have to live with.

You are correct in that it doesn't give a huge amount of active/passive mitigation, but saying it only hurts your team is incredibly wrong. Aside from being the best ball carrying spec in the game (especially if you pick up unstoppable), Immortal has an incredible amount of utility and control that other specs simply don't. Edited February 17, 2012 by Khabarach

[Drengir]

@OP:

 

You high bro?

[UnwantedFoe]

2. DPS classes in a war zone pretty much come at you with all the resilience of a tank and more; in a WZ where neither team has a healer, a tank will attack a marauder while barely damaging them at all - the DPS class has been transposed in such a way that their resilience buff outperforms your tank's damage nerf. But the tank's armor and damage resistance have not been transposed in such a way that he is able to mitigate or equalize the marauder's attacks.

 

Outside the war zones under true-stats this is not the case, and that's why WZ transpositions are a problem for tanks in this game.

 

I have a lvl 43 Sith jugged that's immortal/rage focused, and I have had no problems at all taking on a marauder or sent, its almost easy, its just when there are multiple enemies at once its tricky and I likely die, but usually I kill atleast one enemy, I also use the defensively stance, that makes the armorial rating shoot up a lot