Why Ranged Classes Dominate This Game and Why It needs a fix

[tormeanted]

if you think this thread is about nerfing ranged then you are at the wrong thread. This is about cc limits.

 

tl;dr

 

 

 

hello people.

 

if you are going to comment please know that i am objective. If you think i missed anything comment in a friendly way. Please have the courtesy to create a respectful reply.

 

note: please read the solution to the listed problem before you comment. Thank you

 

to make sure this doesnt become a subjective opinionated thread i will personally say: Im going to go through this step by step by doing scientific study with an objective mind: I myself pvp actively with both melee and ranged classes.

 

problem

melee classes feel ranged classes are "overpowered" in many situations due to various abilities.

 

what i will do

through analyzing and study i will find and discuss whether ranged classes really are favoured and what makes them seem so. In addition i will try and find a solution to the problem.

 

main subject: Incapeable of attacking - cc

in many games, cc has been an utility both in pve and pvp used to control situations. For ranged classes this can bee all from keeping melee away, stopping targets from running, kiting etc. For melee classes this means keeping the target close and in control.

 

Cc really is an important part of rpgs, but why is it such a huge problem in swtor? First lets list the 5 main kind of cc in this game.

 

• stun
  
• root
  
• knockback
  
• slow
  
• breakable ccs
  

 

now in older mmorpgs such as world of warcraft, these things have excisted as well. So what makes swtor different?

 

stun limits

this was introduced by bioware in order to counter games were you are stunned practically 90% of the time. It is not fun looking at your character not being able to do anything besides watching yourself slowly getting killed.

 

So lets look at the top list. First lets list what kind of ccs this stun limit affects.

 

• stun
  
• breakable cc
  

 

thats it. If you reach the stunlimit you can still be rooted, slowed and knockedback.

now lets look at the following scenario as a ranged dps:

my job is to dps. I need to make sure that targets stay away. Without slow/roots, i cant keep melee dps away from me. Without knockback i cant push them off. That is why i have these utilities.

 

and as a melee dps:

my job is to dps. I need to make sure i am close to my target in order to deal damage. Without root/slow/stun i will not be able to reach my target. That is why i have these abilities.

 

So. That seems fair enough. So where is the problem?

the problem

due to the fact that in any situation were a melee and a ranged class fights eachother, the only cc which affects limits is stun. This means that the ranged class now has an upper hand towards melee classes and gives melee classes a problem.

 

But is this true?

 

melee vs ranged

ok, so we have adressed the issue with only having stun cc limits. So lets discuss if this really is a problem.

 

Ask yourself:

 

- how will a melee counter a 100% slow?

- how will a melee counter a root?

 

The answer is stun. You incapazitate your target for a short moment so you can get back in the fight. Now here is the problem: stun limits.

If the target has reached the stunlimits, a melee is at most cases ****ed and will need to retreat in order to regain the ability to get back in the fight. However due to knockback, slow and root this becomes next to impossible.

 

the solution

so how do we fix this? How can we bring melee back into the fight? Its simple.

 

Add the following:

- root limit bar

- slow limit bar

- knockback limit bar

why do we want this? Because a melee being rooted/knocked back/slowed is as crucial for them as it is for a ranged to be stunned.

 

lets look at the facts: can attack, can momentarely not attack, cannot attack

 

when a melee is stunned: cannot attack

when a melee is rooted: cannot attack

when a melee is knockedback: cannot attack until he reaches his target again.

when a melee is slowed: cannot attack before he reaches target again.

 

when a ranged class is stunned: cannot attack

when a ranged class is rooted: can attack

when a ranged class is knockedback: momentarely unable to attack

when a ranged class is slowed: can attack

 

as you see this becomes a huge problem for melee because the only true counter melee has is stuns but unfortunately this is the only current cc that affects a limit.

 

As for the ranged, he doesnt have to worry too much because he does not have these issues. He can be slowed, rooted and knocked back as much as you want it will not cause the same major impacts as it will for a melee dps.

 

why people feel this game values ranged classes more

consider a circle. Now consider 30 small rings which are split by 1meter radius. Consider your target in the middle of this circle.

 

a melee can hit his target in 4/30 of the circles with the main abilities. He needs to use his utility in order to stay in the fight.

a ranged can hit his target in 30/30 of the circles with the main abilities.

 

this gives the ranged a 26/30 or a 86.666% damage advantage to his target.

normally other games have countered this by making melee classes hit much harder so that in a timezone of t, the amount of damage x will equal the amount of damage received f(x) so that the game itself becomes more of a skillbased trade than a melee trying to reach ranged classes.

 

An easy example of this is to cut a fight into 10 frames.

take this example with a grain of salt as it is a fictional example and never the reality.

following scenario should be given for two targets with equal gear and skill for the sake of the study.

 

1 frame: A melee hits a ranged

2 frame: A ranged stuns melee

3 frame: A ranged hits a melee

4 frame: A melee stun ranged

5 frame: A melee hits a ranged

6 frame: A ranged knocks and slows a melee

7 frame: A ranged hits a melee trying to reach target

8 frame: A ranged hits a melee trying to reach target

9 frame: A melee hits a ranged / a ranged hits a melee

10 frame: 1 of the targets die

 

the melee hits 3 times

the ranged hits 4 times

 

this means that the overall damage output between the ranged and melee should be the same so that the melee still reaches the same amount of overall damage despite his lack of damageframes (4/30).

 

why the limits to root/knockback/slow will fix the problem

the biggest problem for a melee is constantly being slowed, rooted and knockedback in comparison to having a huge stunlimitation towards his targets. Giving limits to the listed ccs will get melee back in the fight and will give melee an equal chance to fight as a ranged.

 

Comment, debate and discuss!

 

-z

 

edit: i did not bring up los because this thread is about the ccs, both melee and ranged can be kited by los and therefor any difference between a ranged and a melee becomes a value of +0. And as a mathematical rule you can leave out values of +0 from an equation as they have no value to the solution.

 

additional notes

the class sage/sorc has been listed as overpowered in many cases. Based on the study above i believe the reason is a combination of stun, sprint, root, slow, bubble and knockback.

 

Because there are no limits / diminishing returns to root, slow and knockback and because a sage/sorc can always bubble when the melee actually does get in range, it becomes little to impossible for a melee class to get this class down.

 

I think adding diminishing returns (cc limits) to roots, slows and knockbacks will fix the above issue.

 

reroll ranged and stop qq....

[Smashbrother]

I honestly have no issue killing ranged classes 1v1, so I don't know why there is a big fuss over this.

 

Ranged classes have their own issues like having to stand still to do dps while melee can move and dps at the same time. Ranged classes also have to deal with LoS issues, whereas melee classes will follow their target around the corner and continue to dps. Maybe it's because I'm a guardian, but I don't have that much trouble staying on my target.

 

And yes I also have a commando so I know how annoying it can be to play ranged as well. It's not all sunshine and magical unicorns.

[mBass]

I honestly have no issue killing ranged classes 1v1, so I don't know why there is a big fuss over this.

 

Ranged classes have their own issues like having to stand still to do dps while melee can move and dps at the same time. Ranged classes also have to deal with LoS issues, whereas melee classes will follow their target around the corner and continue to dps. Maybe it's because I'm a guardian, but I don't have that much trouble staying on my target.

 

And yes I also have a commando so I know how annoying it can be to play ranged as well. It's not all sunshine and magical unicorns.

 

The unicorns are whimsical at best.

[justregularjoe]

You cannot be knocked back with a full resolve bar.

[maximusedward]

Perhaps what OP and other people are asking is an ease of access made for handicap people in order to play melee in swotor?

[ZDProletariat]

Why does the OP still think you can be knocked back with a full resolve bar? Also, one of the most powerful tools a melee has against a ranged to keep them in range to deal damage is a snare, not a stun. Snare them, which goes through resolve, and you can keep beating on them. Edited February 12, 2012 by ZDProletariat

[Vales]

L O S counts aswell for melee, never met players who did LOS you so you cant charge.

 

If I LoS a melee I cannot deal any real damage to him either so all it does is creating a stalemate at best.

[Mycrof]

so what youre saying is we should turn every melee class into a scoundrel/OPS?

so for every five seconde you are away from me I should only be able to cast 2 skills while when youre in range you should be able to deal the same with no casting required and 5/10% more dmg?

 

You can't possibly be this dense. It is a lot easier for a ranged to keep their target in their effect range of damage than a melee, so melee should do more damage. Knock a melee off a ledge and they can't touch you. Knock a ranged off and they happily plug away at you. Ill make the numbers simple on the off chance you really are that dense.

 

Over the course of 100 seconds, derby the ranged does 1 damage a second. Dippy the melee has to move into range for 5 seconds, but when he gets into melee, I does one damage a second. Now imagine derby and dippy have 100 hit points. Who wins? (derby wins, by 5 points.)

 

When range and melee do the same damage, range will usually win. This is what many people refer to as an unfair advantage. To offset this, you should give dippy a bonus to his damage so that he can compete with derby.

Edited February 12, 2012 by Mycrof

[fest]

no offense, but that is how melee vs. range is in every single game.

 

In other games all melee usually have in combat gap closers. Where are the Lethality/Concealment in combat gap closers? Where is the Pyrotech Powertech in combat gap closer that doesn't come at the cost of our only utility?

[astrolite]

In other games all melee usually have in combat gap closers. Where are the Lethality/Concealment in combat gap closers? Where is the Pyrotech Powertech in combat gap closer that doesn't come at the cost of our only utility?

 

If the Sorc designer worked on Operatives:

 

1. Cloaking Screen would remove all negative effects

2. Lacerate and/or Shiv would apply a snare + have a longer range snare to use

3. A gap closer on a 20s cooldown would be added

4. A sprint would be added

5. Shield Probe can be used on others and the cooldown is shorter than the duration it is on the target.

[HollowVamp]

One statement....L O S makes them beyond worthless and has no cooldown. Play them smarter. Wait behind LoS until cooldowns are back up etc. If you are fighting one with all cooldowns up and you have 0 cooldowns up..well..That's the nature of MMOs to lose.

 

Edit: I'm a melee DPS with no Force Charge or a healer in WZs.

 

statement: L O S is a dysfunctional misfit, if a cast STARTED before you went los, it will still hit you through the wal

[maximusedward]

You can't possibly be this dense. It is a lot easier for a ranged to keep their target in their effect range of damage than a melee, so melee should do more damage. Knock a melee off a ledge and they can't touch you. Knock a ranged off and they happily plug away at you. Ill make the numbers simple on the off chance you really are that dense.

 

Over the course of 100 seconds, derby the ranged does 1 damage a second. Dippy the melee has to move into range for 5 seconds, but when he gets into melee, I does one damage a second. Now imagine derby and dippy have 100 hit points. Who wins? (derby wins, by 5 points.)

 

When range and melee do the same damage, range will usually win. This is what many people refer to as an unfair advantage. To offset this, you should give dippy a bonus to his damage so that he can compete with derby.

Yep because derby isnt affected by a gcd and has high atk speed and auto atk that can be combined with his skills not to mention Dippy cant leap, stun or pull derby.

But yeah if dippy is dum enought to charge derby head on whithin derby's los after he's been knocked off the ledge then yes I believe dippy totally deserve an ease of access feature for his handicap issue of being retarded.

 

last I checked all but one melee could go invisible while the one whos always visible could leap through the air like the hulk.

Edited February 12, 2012 by maximusedward

[fest]

last I checked all but one melee could go invisible while the one whos always visible could leap through the air like the hulk.

 

With how much AoE and stealth detection this game has, this argument fails horribly. Stealth isn't as effective as you think it is. Sure, it has it's pluses, but it no where near as useful as a leap is.

[Kanthric]

statement: L O S is a dysfunctional misfit, if a cast STARTED before you went los, it will still hit you through the wal

 

No it won't. Well, at least mine don't.

 

You have to be in LOS and in range when I start casting, and in LOS when casting completes. After that, it doesn't matter where you go - out of LOS, out of range, the attack will follow you.

 

Channeled abilities break as soon you're out of LOS for a tick. They seem more forgiving (to the caster) if you move out of range, but you can take yourself out of range if you go about 50% beyond the usual casting range area.

[mBass]

It still boggles my mind that melee classes actually think it's unfair that they can be hit at range. Even if we continue to ignore your very effective gap closers and cc, you people are grossly undervaluing your ability to do fast, instant, uninterruptible damage. If you aren't completely pummeling ranged classes when you get in melee range then you're doing something very wrong.

[Cayemril]

<<<<Playing a Commando and a Marauder currently

 

Couple things to talk about:

 

Firstly I've got to talk about threat management thresholds. Take, say two batteries of RDPSs duking it out (which, to be fair, is pretty similar to a lot of Warzones I've been in). Now, they both know that the only CC effects that are worth putting on their counterparts are stuns and mezzes. Thus, they spam their stuns and mezzes at each other. Now say three MDPS characters run in. Let's call them Jim, Bob and Jimbob, a Jugger, Marauder and Assassin. Now, since the only CCs the ranged guys have been using are mezzes and stuns, they're free to fire off all their KBs, roots and slows at poor hapless Jim, Bob and Jimbob, rendering them useless.

 

Now, say you get a block of RDPSs and a similar block of MDPSs. The RPDSs are free to use all of their CC (including the stuns and mezzes they were using on their counterparts last time) on the MDPS block, breaking them up and destroying them.

 

So here, by having a Warzone group entirely comprised of Ranged characters, you've invalidated a good 3/5ths of your opponent's CC, making it much more even ground.

 

 

 

The last MMO I played before SWTOR was WAR. WAR's PVP was dominated by a number of medium-range classes with incredible amounts of AoE damage. In this paradigm, only a few classes were at all viable. Healers were still great, as many could do decent damage and stop the RDPSs' backlash damage from killing themselves. There was exactly one viable MDPS, and that because he was both a) able to stealth to approach and b) do their damage just outside the "obscene damage" range. There were only two viable true melee classes: the Ironbreaker and the Chosen. The Ironbreaker worked because he combined being nearly unkillable with having tons of disruption and AoE CC. The Chosen worked because he provided huge buffs to the rest of his party, was extremely tough, had a decent amount of CC and dealt enough damage to destroy squishy RDPS without much trouble.

 

The only viable melee in that game were ones who were way stronger, tougher and had more utility than their competition. For the record, the Assassin has all three, the Operative has two, the Jugg has one and the Marauder has none.

[Renlotho]

Bump to show OP from Melee are Kings of PvP what a well crafted, objective post about game mechanics looks like from someone who has tried both melee and ranged classes.

[wwkingms]

without reading anything in this post i cant pretty much assume i can summarize

 

 

 

"hi i play a melee class, even though i chose to play melee i demand that if 2,3,4 or more ranged classes are shooting at me that i survive. in fact its ridiculous i die ever!"

 

"also i feel i should have 100% up time on ranged classes, or do twice my dmg so that when i am on them they drop in about 2 or 3 seconds"

 

"its unfair that a ranged class uses his cc to kite me, i know i have cc too but ranged should have no cc"

 

"i would also like to do more dmg than ranged classes, especially those light armor wearing sorc's.. oh what? i have better single target dmg than sorcs do? well i still would like them to die faster because i deserve to beat everything 1v1"

 

 

 

 

that about right?

Edited February 13, 2012 by wwkingms

[Mycrof]

Yep because derby isnt affected by a gcd and has high atk speed and auto atk that can be combined with his skills not to mention Dippy cant leap, stun or pull derby.

But yeah if dippy is dum enought to charge derby head on whithin derby's los after he's been knocked off the ledge then yes I believe dippy totally deserve an ease of access feature for his handicap issue of being retarded.

 

last I checked all but one melee could go invisible while the one whos always visible could leap through the air like the hulk.

 

There is no auto attack in this game. Most range have stuns and cc as well as instant attacks they can use while moving. All ranged have knock backs of some form. If you move out of Los when a skill is already being cast, it goes through. Tell me what charge you think shadows, operatives, assassins, smugglers and non tank vanguards have that allow them to leap back up after being knocked down down from a platform.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Mycrof

[vimm]

Nerf Sniper!

[JuicyFruits]

So here, by having a Warzone group entirely comprised of Ranged characters, you've invalidated a good 3/5ths of your opponent's CC, making it much more even ground.

 

Couldnt agree more.

 

A coordinated group of RDPS can just chain AOE knockback and basically IGNORE any amount of melee trying to come close. By the time they all have used their KB, the first one is already refreshed and its ragdoll party all over again...

 

I dont want this game to become like warhammer, with melees being useless and being forced to roll ranged

Edited February 13, 2012 by JuicyFruits

[wwkingms]

nvm that knockbacks and pulls effect resolve more than anything else, about twice as much as stuns, gl getting knocked back more than twice.

 

just as so if two operatives open on my sorc i will go from 100% to 0% without having one moment of control over my character

 

 

GET OVER YOURSELF

 

just because there are situations which affect you negatively doesnt mean other classes dont have things to complain about either

 

 

your complaints are not more valid than the next

 

 

play the game

[skotish]

^^ Nothing wrong with this game apart from the knockbacks they need toned down drastically, your char should not be like a bloody ping pong ball ever when playing:D Edited February 13, 2012 by skotish

[BobaFurz]

^^ Nothing wrong with this game apart from the knockbacks they need toned down drastically, your char should not be like a bloody ping pong ball ever when playing:D

 

 

So true, but I guess before this will happen 2/3 of the playerbase is gone anyway.

 

Edited February 13, 2012 by BobaFurz

[Raice]

LOS is not a reliable way to avoid taking a hit and is not a very good argument against the problems with Snares/Roots.

 

LOS does not protect you against DoT.

 

LOS does not protect you when you need to heal, but can't heal while you are moving.

 

LOS does not allow you to win a fight, because you need to see your opponent to kill them.

 

LOS does not help the Melee fighter. It only helps other Ranged fighters.

 

LOS does not help Melee Fighters who do not have a gap closer - Scoundrels/Operatives.

 

LOS does not help you when you are taking damage and are Snared - because you can't get to it.

 

LOS does not bother a Ranged Class unless YOU are a Ranged class - because if you aren't a Ranged class... you simply will not hurt them.

 

Everyone should be immune to Roots and Snares when they are on Resolve Cooldown. The only people who do not want this, are Ranged Classes, because for them... it doesn't matter. This sort of change will only effect Melee Fighters - who more or less are at the mercy of Ranged classes because of this very reason.

 

It is not the nature of the MMO that Melee Fighters are at the mercy of the Ranged Fighters, because not every MMO has a jacked up Class system where Ranged classes can be Tanks, Healers, and Nukers all in one build. Usually, this is not as big a problem, because the Ranged classes are ALWAYS squishy. This simply is not the case in TOR.