Dear BioWare, I am... bored.

[SirMoogie]

Quality repeatable content removes the need to create content all the time. Diablo games are a master at repeatable content by using extensive itemization. MMOs could do worse than to take a page out of Diablo's book.

 

What is "extensive itemization"?

[Razyr]

...On top of that blizzard increased experience for previous content because they understand the real wow starts at max level.

 

I find it ironic that bioware sold swtor as the next mmo evolution with "story" as their major selling point, yet they made it so easy to solo your way to max level...

 

I had to reply to this because it's pretty insightful in a way I hadn't considered before. By emphasizing the leveling experience up to this point, maybe BioWare is limiting the content they can offer. After all, players are going to out level the content, it's how the games designed. On the other side Blizzard* emphasizes an open end approach by focusing on content that character won't out level, at least until their next expansion.

 

This does not mean that SWTOR is sunk, or a bad game, or any of that. It just needs more end game variety. Refocus the emphasis, diversify the content a bit.

 

I'll think on this a bit more. It might be too narrow of an approach to the issue. Still, food for thought.

 

(*I am in no way a fan of Blizzard or the World of Warcraft IP.)

Edited February 8, 2012 by Razyr

[Sirsri]

Welcome to the lack of content outside of raids in a raid focused mmo.

 

I've gotten to the point where I don't even believe a raid focused mmo is a mmo. It's more of a group-oriented game with an online component. Not much different than a rts or fps, at least once you hit 50. Only real difference is more players to have to deal with.

 

Really, when you think about it, 1-50 is nothing more than window dressing. The gameplay you enjoyed while leveling is gone at level 50. It's no longer even close to the same game.

 

Yep, I really think that raids completely destroy mmos, at least when raiding is the sole focus of end-game.

 

Um.... raiding has been the primary focus of MMO's for all the major ones EXCEPT UO that started it. And UO was about ganking other people and taking their stuff. It sort of defines the genre. If you look at the big MMO's there only ones over 1m users are WoW, (12m), Aion (3-4m), Lineage and lineage 2 which both peaked a few years ago and are under 1m each and runescape. In all of those (except maybe runescape?) there's some variant on PVP and Raids, that's kinda how the business works.

 

There are lots of other things to do in SWTOR than raids. But mini games can only be compelling for so long. The 4 man flashpoints feel, generally, too long to be worth the effort compared to the ease of raids, and without any easy way to get a group (an in server LFG tool!) that just ads more time to the process. Because raids require 1.5 tanks per 8 or 16 players, and no dual spec there becomes a serious PVE tank imbalance for the same basic content, which is PVE end game, again, wasting more time finding players. Dailies are well, dailies. Even if you had 100 dailies, they'd still be boring after 2 weeks. Pick 25 a day, every day and you've done them all a couple of times and then what?

 

PVP is more frustrating that it is fun. Rewards are applied for somewhat unrelated things (valour vs winning), which means half your team has one goal, half your team another, and because it's random a lot of times you get on a team that definitely cannot win (or medal grind) given its composition.

 

And that's pretty much all there ever is in any MMO. To use the somewhat outdated 'killers explorers achievers socializers' model. Killers want to pvp, ilum is broken perpetually and is a major task to fix. Warzones are not bad for a while, but they get old fast and I kinda discussed the other problems. They're frustratingly grindy. For explorers the world is only ever finitely big, so you can only explore so much, and they only have so many datacrons without breaking things too much. For socializers there's no real reason to add to your social group, but it does that fine (although hero engine support vivox so I'm guessin they just took a pass on voice chat for now, which might be for the best). And 'achievers' basically meld the other groups together.

 

If you make it harder to get loot for example, so you had to do 2 or 3 4 mans a day, in addition to everything else (sort of like pvp with the 'win 3' thing) you'd have more you felt like was worth doing. Especially if you required 4 man gear to do 8 or 16 mans. But you don't. So then it's a question of how quickly do you want the hampster wheel turning. My guild did most of the hard modes (all that was reasonable possible given our raid comp) 2 weeks ago, and we have some of our mains, people with kids and jobs and stuff, just hitting 50 this week. We may have actually burned through a lot of the raid content already, and we only do 2 days a week, 2.5 hours per day, if that, and none of us were in closed beta (some of those guys, and the other hardcore achievers did nightmare modes in early to mid january). It might be that BioWare is a bit too generous with loot in PVE, and PVP is too grindy and rng bursty on loot.

[Xallionn]

It would be a fruitless exercise to attempt to suggest anything in regards to how the levelling experience should be in my opinion revamped to give better replayability as there is not a chance in hell they will change things.

 

This isn't a bug but more a personal preference and games never make what would require sweeping changes for personal preference, They already seem to be set on the path of fixing bugs which is good and in the midst of already designing future content which will add to existing dungeons and raids. I don't see them addressing the level experience as being an issue they need to look at.

 

I'm not suggesting that they'd change the current content. Our feedback and suggestions will certainly affect future content. We can be sure that they will add both races and classes in the future. I'm hearing a lot of people say they don't like playing the same faction because it's too linear. Well then, if they add a new class and the keep this linear trend, they aren't really gaining anything. So, how should they change what they are doing in future content? What is important? What isn't important.

[ArcadesSabboth]

Couple of questions for the OP:

 

1) Have you played through all 4 "starter" worlds on both factions (Tython, Ord Mantell, Korriban and Hutta)?

 

2) Have you played a character to 50 on both factions? Republic side quests will not be the same as Imperial side quests.

 

3) Did you enjoy the voice acting on your first few playthroughs?

 

4) Would you prefer BioWare ditch the voice acting, which is novel for the MMO genre, and instead focus on rushing out more kill X, gather Y quests supplemented only by text instructions/quest logs, so that you have different side quests to level with?

 

 

You played WoW for 6 years, as did I, so that may be where a lot of your burnout is coming from. It's also a likely reason why you forget how devoid of true end game content WoW had when it was first released.

 

If your standard for fun end game content is the sandbox elements of SWG or other previous MMOs you're probably in the wrong place. I'm not sure how long an MMO can survive strictly on story, but that's what's carrying the ball for now in SWTOR. Personally, I'm hoping they expand space combat/missions in the future as the graphics and easy of controls is appealing. I'm not sure if space PvP will ever work, but I have my fingers crossed.

 

There's going to be limits as to how much "novel" content SWTOR can produce. Publishers, especially mainstream ones such as EA, aren't going to deviate far from the proven path (WoW) until someone else proves you can do it the sandbox way AND be commercially successful.

[fluid]

would not be this way had they listened to the most requested features during development and in beta...

 

1) deep crafting

 

2) player housing

 

those two things alone would add tons of things to do on their own in your off-time.

[DarthMeerkat]

would not be this way had they listened to the most requested features during development and in beta...

 

1) deep crafting

 

2) player housing

 

those two things alone would add tons of things to do on their own in your off-time.

 

One of those is very subjective...

[Sirsri]

I had to reply to this because it's pretty insightful in a way I hadn't considered before. By emphasizing the leveling experience up to this point, maybe BioWare is limiting the content they can offer. After all, players are going to out level the content, it's how the games designed. On the other side Blizzard* emphasizes an open end approach by focusing on content that character won't out level, at least until their next expansion.

 

This does not mean that SWTOR is sunk, or a bad game, or any of that. It just needs more end game variety. Refocus the emphasis, diversify the content a bit.

 

I'll think on this a bit more. It might be too narrow of an approach to the issue. Still, food for thought.

 

(*I am in no way a fan of Blizzard or the World of Warcraft IP.)

 

Leveling is a giant tutorial for how you will play the game. Or at least should be.

 

I think it took me 100 hours to 50. My girlfriend... more like 350. But either way, I expect to log somewhere around 1000-1500 hours in a year, right now i'm on pace for over 2000 hours by dec 13, but I expect that I'll ease back a lot now the the excitement of the newness is gone. But either way, I would think most people are looking at more like 1000 hours before the next expansion, and there's only really 200 or so meaningful hours of leveling. So what's the next 800? 5 or 6 alts? (It's a LOT faster the second time through, since you know your way around). There's certainly raids and pvp, but we've only raided hard modes for a couple of weeks and like a quarter of our people have some decent rakata gear and we can't even clear because or raid comp is still all messed up as people finish leveling.

 

And as I say, it's not like they don't have endgame, it just needs to be retuned a bit in terms of rewards /week /player sort of thing. They waste a lot of time traveling but don't give you a lot of things to do that aren't very uneven experiences (grindy, insanely fast or very RNG dependent).

[Greyfeld]

Wrong thread, deleted. Edited February 8, 2012 by Greyfeld

[Aisar]

would not be this way had they listened to the most requested features during development and in beta...

 

1) deep crafting

 

2) player housing

 

those two things alone would add tons of things to do on their own in your off-time.

 

That might keep me playing until the 19th but I would not pay for another month. The problem for me is not the lack of content, it is that they focused on story. I don't like an MMO that holds up a trophy for one thing while everything else is crumbling around them. The end result is lack of content, but more than that Bioware managed to poop out an MMO. A really painful passing that must have been (and was apparantly). Maybe some people REALLY like voice dialogue and stuff, I don't. I grew up with Everquest, WoW, well pretty much most of them and they were fine.

 

I guess this type of MMO style is not for me

Edited February 8, 2012 by Aisar

[VenthiosLestaran]

Ahhh, so instead of killing 20 harpies in a mountainous area, you can kill 30 boars in a grassy area. So much freedom.

 

No. Zones will contain multiple encounters like this

 

This is a level 15 dynamic event. This is primarily how you gain exp, through events like this, or town takeovers/exploratory event finds.

 

Let me tell you - I want to kill 45 Rakghouls instead of one of those.

 

When you knock something, do a little research first yeah? It makes for a more compelling argument.

 

Here are other examples. Since leveling to 80 is a flat line, takes as much to get to 11 as it does to go from 79-80. You don't need to "grind" these like you'd think.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1JfSbKjHHI&feature=related

 

These encounters range from low to high level, numerous per zone. Zones are vast.

[abarwan]

First off, I just wanna say I'm really enjoying the game and haven't run into any boredom issues. I have a level 45 Sorc and an alt at level 10.

 

I just want to get some thoughts on what people want. Specifically, I see people asking for more open content and exploration. Wouldn't exploring the worlds for datacrons instead of using the internet to find them fit this bill? It requires exploration in order to find them and they would certainly take a while to find if you did it on your own. A self made quest to gain power/increase knowledge/etc depending on your toon's story. If this doesn't qualify I'm wondering what does? No sarcasm, I'm asking the question.

 

I also understand that datacrons aren't the be all end all of this issue but stuff like this seems to get swept under the rug. Much like how people say there is no content when the content is clearly in the class quests. It's there but it may not be what you are looking for. Hunting datacrons is open exploration but it may not be what you are looking for.

 

Thoughts?

[RycheMykola]

How many of those games did people finish all the content in the first week or two?

 

IF so many people can clear all the content in less than a month that is saying that it is way to easy or there was not enough content to begin with.

WOW just had a major update 4.3 (or was it 4.2?) , people killed Deathwing in the first 3 hours. This expansion is supposed to last 6 months.

 

Cata - A lot of people hit level 85 and were doing raiding in 1 to 2 days.

[Urko]

Might have been said already, i havent read all the posts...

 

but ive seen a leak of info that theres loads of content (was an itemised list) planned for next month.

 

Content isnt what im looking for first though , its better available textures.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Urko

[PulseXXX]

No. Zones will contain multiple encounters like this

 

This is a level 15 dynamic event. This is primarily how you gain exp, through events like this, or town takeovers/exploratory event finds.

 

Let me tell you - I want to kill 45 Rakghouls instead of one of those.

 

When you knock something, do a little research first yeah? It makes for a more compelling argument.

 

Here are other examples. Since leveling to 80 is a flat line, takes as much to get to 11 as it does to go from 79-80. You don't need to "grind" these like you'd think.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1JfSbKjHHI&feature=related

 

These encounters range from low to high level, numerous per zone. Zones are vast.

 

My comment was regarding the comparison to WoW zones, not GW2.

 

As to your response though, I would point out how well that experience worked out for WAR.

[Razyr]

Couple of questions for the OP:

 

1) Have you played through all 4 "starter" worlds on both factions (Tython, Ord Mantell, Korriban and Hutta)?

 

2) Have you played a character to 50 on both factions? Republic side quests will not be the same as Imperial side quests.

 

3) Did you enjoy the voice acting on your first few playthroughs?

 

4) Would you prefer BioWare ditch the voice acting, which is novel for the MMO genre, and instead focus on rushing out more kill X, gather Y quests supplemented only by text instructions/quest logs, so that you have different side quests to level with?

 

 

You played WoW for 6 years, as did I, so that may be where a lot of your burnout is coming from. It's also a likely reason why you forget how devoid of true end game content WoW had when it was first released.

 

If your standard for fun end game content is the sandbox elements of SWG or other previous MMOs you're probably in the wrong place. I'm not sure how long an MMO can survive strictly on story, but that's what's carrying the ball for now in SWTOR. Personally, I'm hoping they expand space combat/missions in the future as the graphics and easy of controls is appealing. I'm not sure if space PvP will ever work, but I have my fingers crossed.

 

There's going to be limits as to how much "novel" content SWTOR can produce. Publishers, especially mainstream ones such as EA, aren't going to deviate far from the proven path (WoW) until someone else proves you can do it the sandbox way AND be commercially successful.

 

Most of the answers I've already posted, you can find what I've written by either clicking on my name or looking for the orange Tahoma font.

 

Voice acting is great, period. It is a non-issue from my perspective in regards to this conversation.

 

Keep in mind, you aren't seeing a 'rage quit' thread from myself and many others replying that seem to feel the same way. We understand that BioWare is working on content, and they have kept the entire development team in place to do so.

 

We just want something more than a boring a*s grindfest. I think many people realize you can have the themepark in place as a solid foundation to the game experience while offering a few more diverse sandbox elements, such as what fluid posted:

1) deep crafting

 

2) player housing

[VenthiosLestaran]

My comment was regarding the comparison to WoW zones, not GW2.

 

As to your response though, I would point out how well that experience worked out for WAR.

 

Aside from that, killing 30 harpies is different from killing 30 boars as it's your choice to switch if you like. You can kill Grimtotems - or demons in the same level range, or elementals, or naga. There all in the proper range of 30-35, with quests according to those areas.

 

The experience didn't work well for WAR because their contribution system was fouled. However, people did enjoy Public Quests. We'll see if GW2 can get it right, I'm not claiming they did. However, from an interest standpoint, and from a choice standpoint. SWTOR is giving practically none.

[PulseXXX]

Aside from that, killing 30 harpies is different from killing 30 boars as it's your choice to switch if you like. You can kill Grimtotems - or demons in the same level range, or elementals, or naga. There all in the proper range of 30-35, with quests according to those areas.

 

The experience didn't work well for WAR because their contribution system was fouled. However, people did enjoy Public Quests. We'll see if GW2 can get it right, I'm not claiming they did. However, from an interest standpoint, and from a choice standpoint. SWTOR is giving practically none.

 

So, they give the same content in a different skin and you see that as variation? To each their own I suppose.

[SirMoogie]

I just want to get some thoughts on what people want.

 

[...]

 

Thoughts?

 

I've played nearly every Bioware RPG since Knights of The Old Republic so I enjoy the way the class quest lines (and several story arcs on planets) have progressed. I don't like when joining a group this story tends to take a back seat or my character's personality does. For example, having to go along with the dark sided options when I'm mostly light sided.

 

I understand in a group everyone cannot get their way. However, there should be some repercussions, or means of retaliating against the psychopaths. A flashpoint that combines PVE with PVP would be interesting. Take for example, the black talon. Instead of letting the psychopaths kill the most knowledgeable person on the ship, have a diverging path where the lightsided player(s) defend the bridge.

 

I'm not suggesting they redo the existing flashpoints, but having more diverging paths in future flashpoints would make them more enjoyable to repeat. I know that some of the flashpoints have some variability (black talon being one of them), but it'd be nice to have more variety and possibly more control over what happens (rather than dice deciding). Keep in mind I'm one of those players that hasn't completed every flashpoint, so this may already exist in some capacity.

[Gustomucho]

First off, I just wanna say I'm really enjoying the game and haven't run into any boredom issues. I have a level 45 Sorc and an alt at level 10.

 

I just want to get some thoughts on what people want. Specifically, I see people asking for more open content and exploration. Wouldn't exploring the worlds for datacrons instead of using the internet to find them fit this bill? It requires exploration in order to find them and they would certainly take a while to find if you did it on your own. A self made quest to gain power/increase knowledge/etc depending on your toon's story. If this doesn't qualify I'm wondering what does? No sarcasm, I'm asking the question.

 

I also understand that datacrons aren't the be all end all of this issue but stuff like this seems to get swept under the rug. Much like how people say there is no content when the content is clearly in the class quests. It's there but it may not be what you are looking for. Hunting datacrons is open exploration but it may not be what you are looking for.

 

Thoughts?

 

Thing is, you know what you are chasing. You are chasing stats. You want the fastest way to increase your stats. If you could explore and find very rare items in the game (ie 10000 random spawn points of 1000 unique special items every 3-4 months) it would add personality to the game. Having random stuff happen to you is what makes the game fun, when you know 100000 people went through this same exercise... it feels like you are on rail and just burning stuff you "need" to do.

 

Random unique stuff is fun. Bringing the plague to a big city, spawning a deadly mob on lowbies, raiding the other faction... those bring uniqueness. Right now Swtor is the MMO equivalent of the space combat the game has : You see everything, think you are free to do what you want only to realize you are in a tunnel, you can move in the 3x3 square but everything outside is untouchable.

 

The game is stale, Ilum is boring. The pvp is no where it should be, Imps and Reps only fight for gear, not for honor. Honestly, I don't know why BW decided to go this way, they do great single player games, horrible multiplayer.

[Mazing]

TL,DR: I am a huge fan of Star Wars & BioWare, and have given the game a solid chance. It needs more content. Please fix.

 

[Reserved for responses to thread]

 

chrisftw: I'm not looking for more Flashpoint grind, although some people may enjoy it.

 

I agree TL;DR

[Marlaine]

That might keep me playing until the 19th but I would not pay for another month. The problem for me is not the lack of content, it is that they focused on story. I don't like an MMO that holds up a trophy for one thing while everything else is crumbling around them. The end result is lack of content, but more than that Bioware managed to poop out an MMO. A really painful passing that must have been (and was apparantly). Maybe some people REALLY like voice dialogue and stuff, I don't. I grew up with Everquest, WoW, well pretty much most of them and they were fine.

 

I guess this type of MMO style is not for me

 

The big difference is that you don't have to be a crafter to enjoy this type of system. The reality that crafters have to accept (that includes me) is that we are a pretty extreme minority. Likely there's even a lot less of us than people who actually like raiding. So, just as I think it's a mistake to create a mmo catering to raiders, I also think it's a mistake creating a mmo catering just to crafters. After all, that's why SWG failed.

 

But, a game with deep crafting creates many opportunities for non-crafters to have a REASON to be out in the world treasure hunting. In a raid-oriented game all you do is go to your weekly raids and you are done. In a deep crafting game, you could still do raids but you would also have incentive to play outside the raid so you can hunt Kryat Dragons for or Rancors for special crafting materials to make gear and weapons that are a cut above those you can get raiding (or can be on par with heroic raiding).

 

Deep crafting just provides more incentive for everyone to play, even if you're not a crafter.

[Chessack]

I'm sorry, but WoW had more content at launch, and more mechanics to work with.

(snip)

Until Cataclysm, the vanilla portion of WoW remained relatively untouched, but it still held interest for reasons mentioned above.

 

Well I never got past level 18 in WOW so I can't comment on its endgame.

 

BUT... BUT...

 

the OP said this in criticism of TOR's endgame:

At 50 the game really becomes another hamster wheel that we ran away from after 6+ years of World of Warcraft.

 

So the OP was calling the WOW endgame a "hamster wheel" which I take to mean repetitive.

 

This means YOU ARE MAKING MY POINT FOR ME, which is that NO AMOUNT OF CONTENT any team of devs makes for endgame will ever be enough. Ever! Because the OP was complaining about the WOW endgame being a "hamster wheel." That's right, even the game you all say TOR should have been more like, was still too repetitive and had too little endgame content for the OP.

 

My point wasn't that TOR has enough, but that no game will EVER have enough to satisfy you people... because what you really want is a game that goes to level infinity, and has new content from level 1 to level infinity. And that's impossible.

 

And the really REALLY annoying part is that deep down you all KNOW what you're asking for is impossible, but you are asking for it anyway. I mean you don't even hide it, because in the same breath as complaining that TOR doesn't have enough to satisfy you, you also admit that WOW, which arguably has the most content ever release of any game in the history of all video gaming since the dawn of computers, doesn't have enough.

 

Nothing will ever be enough when people burn through content as hard and as fast as you folks do. Not if all the dev teams of all the MMOs on earth got together and built one game could they put out content fast enough to keep up with you guys.

 

As I say, come on now. You guys know all this is true. So why this charade of pretending to be outraged by not being given something that you know is impossible in the first place?

 

Really now, who is kidding whom?

[Caelc]

Bioware decided to try something different and that was adding a real story to a mmo. Most mmos don't really have much of a story, only small little bits and pieces here and there. Bioware tried to create large stories for each class and they succeeded.

 

This has ups and downs, the ups is, you can get a lot of people that are not really mmo players to try your game. it can be played like a single player game. It also affects the grind, it doesn't feel like you are grinding to level as much as most games do. other games, like WoW you know you are grinding to level, the only thing that makes it bearable is the exploration and getting new gear as rewards.

 

the down side is you get more linearity in the leveling. I for one don't mind, I actually think it is a good thing. It helps you to level more jobs, where others feel too much like deja vu.

 

What matters is where they go from here. I am hoping that the story to 50 is like a big introductory. After that they shouldnt follow the same format for story, it is done. So if there is a level cap increase, which there will be at some point, I hope they make the leveling more open. So all your content is on fully explorable planets where you pick up quests and such and explore at will with the knowledge you may run into an opposing faction and have to fight it out.

 

Personally I find that this game has far more content then any mmo I am seen at launch when you consider the story.

 

So before getting all bent out of shape, wait and see where it goes from here. The mmo just came out, you cannot expect content of wow as it was after 3-4 years in this game at 2 months in. if you do you need a reality check, and if you have finished all the content so far in the game, I suggest you go outside and enjoy the fresh air a bit more.

[PjPablo]

I don't think the issue here with TOR is the amount of content. It's the speed at which it is completed. The amount of content is only as relevant as the amount of time to complete it. The content in game at this moment can be completed comparatively quickly when compared to other MMOs. Look at WOW at launch. It wasn't that there was a ton of content at endgame. It's that it took time to work through it. By the time BWL came out the majority of PVE players were still on MC. You can't say the same here and thus the "I'm bored' comments.

 

Long story short....it would be helpful for the long term health of the game if the game were slowed down a bit.