Sexual violence, slavery, and genocide. Just another day in the Empire?

[Yardbird]

You can't make an omelette without cracking a few eggs.

[Slightlycampana]

Ok, I only read the OP and not the rest of the thread.

 

But it sounds like you want to be a pretend bad guy - you want the aura of being "bad" without actually having to commit evil acts.

 

The problem I see with the dark side is that there is no come-back for evil acts. To create an interesting morally ambiguous game, dark side acts should have a pay-off (which tempts you to choose evil) and a bad-karma consequence. Good acts should have a cost (you sacrifice something) but a good-karma consequence.

 

Vette is an example - she doesn't leave you, no matter what you do to her. Presumably you can gain her affection purely by feeding her gifts every 30s, even if she disapproves of almost everything else you do.

 

Where, in that scenario, is the pay-off for being evil, the cost for making a moral choice, and the good/bad karma consequences of both?

[Cwyn]

What is absolutely shocking to me is how anyone could not think that The Empire, as portrayed in Star Wars, is one of the most vicious, evil and sadistic organizations ever portrayed in science fiction. Why could anyone be surprised that as an Imperial, your character may enjoy torture, senseless slaughter or even sexual violence?

 

This precedent has been firmly established by the Star Wars Universe for over 3 decades now.

 

Let's go back to 1977 when Star Wars first burst into the scene. We see The Empire building a super weapon to destroy entire civilizations. And then they use it, for no other reason than to make a point. Not to save The Empire, not because there was some great historical turning point at stake that threatened all they had established, but simply to make a point. "...millions of voices cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced." is how Obi-Wan felt it, rightly so, because millions had been callously murdered.

 

Let's not forget Darth Vader, willing to choke a man to death in plain view for merely a differing opinion. Nothing more, they simply didn't agree. Yet I have never heard ANYONE complain about this behavior. Ever.

 

Then you have the torture of Princess Leia, a legally protected dignitary. The device used on her made water-boarding look like a day in the kiddy pool.

 

The same behavior is exhibited throughout the remaining movies. Extreme torture is used, mindless killing, slavery and so much more. Is anyone really going to argue that a shock collar is more outrageous than a man slaughtering a school filled with trusting children in cold blood? This was all at the hands of The Empire.

 

This sudden uproar about a few choices the player is presented, but is not required to make, is suspicious. Either the handful of outraged people have been willfully blind to the vicious acts portrayed by The Empire in Star Wars over the last 34 years, or have an alternative agenda. What that could be may be garnering attention for themselves or simply degrading SWTOR in order to pull potential customers away.

 

So let's get some honesty. If you are truly outraged by the choices BioWare has offered to Imperial players, which happen to be fully in line with how the organization has been portrayed, we want to know if you're an idiot living under a rock for the last 30 years OR if you have some other agenda. Come clean, we are waiting for a truthful answer.

 

Either way your opinion can be disregarded.

 

Thank you for perhaps the best argument in this thread! Admittedly, the above mentioned citations are things whose gravity had probably faded from my memory in time but, I think I've always viewed most of those events as a few isolated rarities and not the norm. Furthermore, I'd always considered the largely hierarchical and militaristic Empire to be extremely compartmentalized, to the extent that the common man didn't know most of what his government did behind closed doors or away on campaigns. The common man of the Empire, cut off from the grisly details, would have had a much easier time swallowing the news and probably would have rationalized it. That's an advantage of seeing things from one point of view in a movie; the viewer fills in a backstory to make it a little more palatable.

 

We can view Tarkin's callous annihilation of Alderaan as psychological torture/manipulation show for the purpose of breaking Leia. It was necessarily mindless. There may have been other factors in selecting and destroying Alderaan that weren't included in the spectacle presented to Leia. And yes, the Empire made a point in employing their super weapon, just like Truman did when Tojo walked away from the negotiating table after Truman reduced the conditions of Japan's surrender. I've read in some military doctrine that war is a form of negotiation, an extreme form. In short, it's to make a point.

 

Vader had to reinforce his authority in what was essentially a time of war. Having that authority undermined at the very stressful point (for the crew) of outright destroying a world was unconcienable. There was a point being made for a select audience. It wasn't necessarily mindless.

 

I will concede the fact that I have a meta game weakness in knowing that hundreds or thousands of other players are making the same evil choices and that makes everything seem less secretive and compartmentalized... more common knowledge. I'm not outraged that Bioware is giving the options; I just think it's a little sloppy. And that takes away from the scheming, manipulative, conniving Dark Side that might attract someone who can rationalize it, and reduces it all to some psychotic brute-fest that will descend into its own death spiral.

[Vaegaknight]

Ok, I only read the OP and not the rest of the thread.

 

But it sounds like you want to be a pretend bad guy - you want the aura of being "bad" without actually having to commit evil acts.

 

The problem I see with the dark side is that there is no come-back for evil acts. To create an interesting morally ambiguous game, dark side acts should have a pay-off (which tempts you to choose evil) and a bad-karma consequence. Good acts should have a cost (you sacrifice something) but a good-karma consequence.

 

Vette is an example - she doesn't leave you, no matter what you do to her. Presumably you can gain her affection purely by feeding her gifts every 30s, even if she disapproves of almost everything else you do.

 

Where, in that scenario, is the pay-off for being evil, the cost for making a moral choice, and the good/bad karma consequences of both?

 

There... Are consequences. Such as people trying to get revenge? Play through the Agent storyline as a dark side character and tell me there aren't dire consequences to negative actions.

[osuaaron]

Well, I can see reasons why she wouldn't, personally. If you're actually nice to her, and treat her as a friend and ally rather than a slave, it's really not such a bad gig for her, you know? She gets to travel around, live free, and hang out with someone who can protect her. Also, I'd imagine that being tagged a "runaway slave" would be FAR worse than being "a slave". The latter just gets you glared at and treated poorly (most of the time), whereas the former would get you tortured and killed.

 

Sadly, my sith warrior can't romance her, cause Vette doesn't swing that way. Which is too bad, cause they get along really well.

 

I respect your opinion. But I still believe that given the circumstances, her second question after asking to have the collar removed would be, "do you mind if I go?"

 

Sith don't have friends in the Star Wars universe. They have people they use for personal gain. This is only through Bioware's "you will have relationships no matter what" motif that you are forced to do this. The real bondage isn't Vette to your character -- it's our characters to Bioware. Personally, my Sith would have a few droids at the most. None of which talk.

[Sunstarr]

You have to control a slave through fear. That's why she's a slave and does the things you tell her to do. The concept that anyone "likes" and wants to "hang out with" a Sith is ridiculous.

 

But Bioware will do whatever it takes to have that all-important relationship dynamic in every one of its games.

 

No, you do not have to control a slave through fear. Vette is a slave because that is all she has ever known, she admits to that in game via cut scene dialogue. Like I said, treat her well, dont talk down to her, listen to her and take an interest in her backstory when it is offered and you will see the relationship develop.

 

On the flip side of this, treat her badly, shock and slap her, and you wil see a decidely different result.

 

Choices people, we all make them.

[TheTurniipKing]

****. Ebert was and is right. We have a long, long way to go.

 

tl;dr version for folks with less time on their hands:

 

The problematically 5th grade level writing in ToR touches on topics from sexual violence to torture, slavery and bigotry without even a bit of intelligent context or commentary. It reinforces why games still aren't taken seriously as art.

 

Also: read my whole post if you decide to start flaming me or calling me two-faced. It takes countless hours to properly assess an MMO of this caliber.

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2012/01/03/the-bizarre-sexism-in-biowares-star-wars-the-old-republic/ <--- Forbes chimes in. The press is already coming in.

Try playing a light-side Imperial agent. it's fascinating.

 

Sith Warrior is the "Darth Vader experience". Imperial Agent is more sort of "James Bond".

Edited February 1, 2012 by TheTurniipKing

[osuaaron]

On this point I would direct you toward the young adult section of any book store. There are some exceptionally negative themes in much of the literature you'll find there (particularly literature aimed at young women). If you are really concerned about young adults/teenagers being influenced, get back to burning books.

 

SWTOR is no different from any book you would find in the teen section. That is absolutely true.

[Wystlin]

Twi sell themselves into slavery.. they do this to better their children's prospects. Doesn't always work but there it is.

 

Do you choose to go out of your house and run someone over? Or do you choose to wait and make sure no one is coming before backing out? These are choices, you cannot fault a game for the option you can only point at those that take the option.

You are unable to do that either as this is fictional and ment as exploratory. What would happen if I do this, oh.. I see. Carmmageddon didn't ruin me, letting vette participate in a 3 way won't ruin anyone today.

 

and for the heck of it.

[osuaaron]

No, you do not have to control a slave through fear. Vette is a slave because that is all she has ever known, she admits to that in game via cut scene dialogue. Like I said, treat her well, dont talk down to her, listen to her and take an interest in her backstory when it is offered and you will see the relationship develop.

 

On the flip side of this, treat her badly, shock and slap her, and you wil see a decidely different result.

 

Choices people, we all make them.

 

What you are describing is someone who is not a slave. And anyone who is not a slave would not want to "hang out with" a Sith.

 

Unless you're in Bioland, where it is requried.

[Vaegaknight]

What you are describing is someone who is not a slave. And anyone who is not a slave would not want to "hang out with" a Sith.

 

Unless you're in Bioland, where it is requried.

 

Why wouldn't they want to hang out with a Sith? Again. Applying real world logic to a fantasy/sci fi setting.

 

The characters in these settings don't think like you or I. No. They're drawn to the power or the protection that power offers. They're forced into it. There's so many reasons for them "Hanging out" with Sith it's kind of silly.

[Shampoo]

It's an issue I care about. I don't like the idea that kids are being exposed to media which doesn't add any significance or meaningful dialogue to something like an abusive relationship with a slave woman.

 

...again, it's easy to shove these things under the rug. Sure, we could keep reading and posting in threads about Illum incorrectly posted into general, but I'm not going to throw in the towel because you find the issue of little significance.

 

Teen rated game, Wal-Mart shelves, no carding, parents shopping based on ESRB. These are arguments that I understand you may want me to take somewhere else.

 

However, my journalist peers and I aren't going to hush up because of the same old argument that the element of "decision" rationalizes the inclusion of sexualized torture.

 

The fact that a character can choose the lesser of two evils doesn't make the poorly constructed and hateful scenario disappear.

 

It's Star Wars. It's violent. It's sexual. The Empire is a cruel fascist dictatorship. I understand all of this. I also understand that your character can treat Vette with at least a moderate amount of human decency.

 

Those arguments do nothing in the way of disproving my point: the inclusion of this type of material without proper dialogue and the failure of ESRB and EA to provide due warning is inexcusable.

 

It's still an issue to me--and to many others. I'm not alone here. I write for a gaming publication that I cannot divulge on a public forum, but I think these are important topics which the discerning public deserves to see before making the decision to purchase this as a gift or even for themselves.

 

Not to mention I know for a fact Bioware developers read these boards--and I won't let go of the idea that perhaps they'll reconsider the decision they've made to so lightly tread upon a topic like a flirtatious and abusive relationship with a slave.

 

I can only hope proper context is added next time and that if this type of content remains, that people aren't being deceived. Thirteen year olds in this day and age spend a lot of time at the computer unsupervised--it's just the unfortunate reality of the world. Not every parent is ideal and accurate product representation and intelligent dialogue could potentially avert exposure to scenes that make a joke of sexual violence.

 

I will be utilizing other communication methods to express my concern, so there's no need to dismiss me as a troll or a white-knight, this is just a good public medium--and so it goes.

 

For those that are listening, regardless of your opinion--I AM actively reading your posts and appreciate your feedback.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Shampoo

[FenraelWolfmien]

Has it been pointed out that the reason people can complain about the plot of this MMO is because it actually has one beyond "Arr, a dragon exploded on us lets get to stabbing <accept quest>"?

 

Yeah, a lot of what goes on in the game is outright senseless and psychotic. Half the dark side choices I've seen so far are apparently there just to show the world what an ******e you are and carry no significant logic otherwise.

 

I can understand the gripes about poor quality writing, but what I don't understand is the gripes about "degenerate content" - the content in this game is not pushing any envelopes. It isn't SAW9 or Rome Season 3 (that would be totally awesome though) or Peter Jackson's Revenge of the Hobbits: The Rise of the Shire as a World Power and Ultimate Conquest of Tol Eressa by chubby woad warriors (that comes out next summer). It's no more or less edgy than anything else in the mainstream Sci-Fi/Fantasy genre.

 

I can hope they can improve the quality of their writing, beyond choices like "No I won't kill babies for a free iphone" and "F*&( UR IPHONE I LIKE STABBIN BABY FACE" (+50 DS) "I will save your babies from slaveries and here's a candy cane and a gun" (+50 LS), but I can't hope for a better LOTR movie or Ep 1 to 3. Stuck with Gimli as comedy relief, commado explody orcs that aren't from the WAAGH and.. well all of Ep1.

 

Though really if you want to compare between mediums, I'd like to ask how dismembering Anakin and setting him on fire was somehow more palatable to the general public than telling Vette to **** and shocking her. Of the two, it's quadriplegic Anakin who has no witty rejoinder.

[osuaaron]

Twi sell themselves into slavery.. they do this to better their children's prospects. Doesn't always work but there it is.

 

Well yes, there is that factor. Twi'leks aren't really known for their backbones and spirit. I should be factoring that in. The disconnect is that if that were the case as a species, some wouldn't be able to become Jedi or anything of any substantial meaning.

 

I admit to label an entire species as one thing or another is wrong. I'm sure it's just a percentage of Twi'leks that want to be slaves or what have you, or have no spirit whatsoever. In essence, Vette is a weak-willed character, which goes against her personality, and creates confusion.

 

 

F*&( UR IPHONE I LIKE STABBIN BABY FACE" (+50 DS)

 

lol'd heartily.

Edited February 1, 2012 by osuaaron

[Vaegaknight]

... The OP clearly doesn't actually read any posts but his own on this topic.

 

Go on OP. push YOUR moral agenda onto others. Let's limit and regulate our world just a little more so you can sleep better at night. Right, right. That's the way to go about things!

 

The easy way is the right way, yeah?

[LyriaFrost]

I respect your opinion. But I still believe that given the circumstances, her second question after asking to have the collar removed would be, "do you mind if I go?"

 

Well, from what I recall, after removing her collar you basically say "It's you and me against the universe". She kind of goes "aheh...uh...okay". So she's not entirely convinced that you're a nice person yet, so asking if you'll let her go might be pushing it, at least from her point of view. I can see why she wouldn't, immediately, since you being nice to her MIGHT just be an act, after all, and asking to leave might get the collar slapped on again, or worse.

 

Sith don't have friends in the Star Wars universe. They have people they use for personal gain. This is only through Bioware's "you will have relationships no matter what" motif that you are forced to do this. The real bondage isn't Vette to your character -- it's our characters to Bioware. Personally, my Sith would have a few droids at the most. None of which talk.

 

Correction, Sith *NPCs* act that way. Your character is your own to play, and act out. Yes, your dialogue choices are limited -- there's no way to give a player absolute freedom of choice, after all, especially in an MMO setting -- but you still don't HAVE to treat everyone like potential pawns.

 

My sorceress, for instance, is honestly a nice person. She was just born into a horrible, twisted society, and she's trying to make her way in it as best she can. She has a nasty temper, however, and it sometimes gets the better of her.

 

My sith warrior thinks other sith are mindless, drooling idiots who can only think of themselves and personal power. She enjoys standing up to them, slapping them across the face, and smirking as they try and threaten her. She's a ****** and she knows it. But she treats all the NON-sith with respect, because they're what makes the Empire actually WORK. Troopers, Intelligence, the average citizen -- these are people she actually respects. The fact that she can fling people about and wave a lightsaber makes her more POWERFUL, but it (in her mind) shouldn't automatically grant her respect. That's earned.

 

But anyway. This is going off onto a rather broad tangent.

 

In short, I CAN see why Vette would (initially) choose to linger around, probably out of fear of being killed/punished if she pushed things. Then, after time, as she gets to know your (light-side) sith warrior, and realizes they're actually not a bad person after all, she chooses to stay voluntarily.

 

So I wouldn't call it poor writing or anything; you just have to look beyond the surface motivations. That's what storytelling is all about.

Edited February 1, 2012 by LyriaFrost

[Limedust]

... The OP clearly doesn't actually read any posts but his own on this topic.

 

Go on OP. push YOUR moral agenda onto others. Let's limit and regulate our world just a little more so you can sleep better at night. Right, right. That's the way to go about things!

 

The easy way is the right way, yeah?

 

I thought the OP was a troll post and it was time to move on? Didn't you say that? Or am I reading too much into that one too?

[Vaegaknight]

I thought the OP was a troll post and it was time to move on? Didn't you say that? Or am I reading too much into that one too?

 

You read WAY too much into my first post.

 

But what is the point in singling me out? Are you... Trolling, perhaps?

[Max_Vitor]

I think the bigger question isn't that there were dark choices to make, it's why you made them? Morbid curiosity perhaps?

You can't fault the game designers for giving you free will any more than you can blame a gun manufacturer for the victims of their product, it's the person holding the gun, the person making the decisions, in this case, you.

The empire has been established to be a totalitarian and dystopian regime, ruled by a sadistic noble class that have elements that are paragons of evil. To be able to realistically portray these characters as truly evil, then truly evil options must be available, but having free will, these options you don't have to take.

As with any group there are moderates, even the Nazi's had people who were appalled with what their more radical brethren were doing. Would you participate in mass genocide even if you could safely avoid it, or would you choose to participate simply because that option was made available to you?

Things could be much worse, this game is fairly bloodless, there is no gore, no mutilation, vivisection and the more bloody kinds of death and torture that evil forces indulge in.

I think that the dark side portrayal in this game is mild in comparison to what it would be if things were portrayed realistically. I applaud this game for not going into the gruesome detail that it could have gone.

 

But in the final analysis it's still only a game, it's a mistake to read too much into it.

[Safiir]

Sith don't have friends in the Star Wars universe. They have people they use for personal gain. This is only through Bioware's "you will have relationships no matter what" motif that you are forced to do this. The real bondage isn't Vette to your character -- it's our characters to Bioware. Personally, my Sith would have a few droids at the most. None of which talk.

 

 

This is actually not true. The concept of friendship exist among the sith. There are cases where sith would value friendship more than personal gain. The same holds true for honor, mercy, forgiveness etc.

 

Also it is not necessary for companions to be bonded by friendship. If their objectives are similar then it's only logical to be traveling with a sith.

[Sneakycheeks]

I have yet to make a Sith character..and I wasn't aware until reading this post what horriable things you could do to Vette. BUT...This is a game about CHOICES. As many others have said..you can CHOOSE to remove her shock collar..and you can CHOOSE to be nice to her and to other characters. Its not like Bioware is forcing you to torture her or go around doing other things that you don't want to do.

[Cancrizans]

Well the problem is, in Star Wars the Empire is genuinely evil. It isn't like in WoW where you could make a rational argument that the Horde(with possible exception of the Undead and Blood Elves) could be the good faction rather than the Alliance, you really can't do the same thing with the Empire.

 

No matter what some people may want to point out about the Republic's flaws...they have political corruption like we do in the real world, they don't always act in the true public interest(the Republic military seems rather prone to this with all of the secret weapon projects and reckless experimentation that ends up putting the entire Republic at risk...but I think this intentionally parallels our own situation), there is just NO WAY you can even begin to compare those negatives with the complete lack of respect for life the Empire displays at all times.

 

That is why I sincerely hope the majority of people who chose Empire did so because they saw a unique opportunity to experience such a twisted environment in a game. Anyone who actually thinks the Empire's position is remotely acceptable is likely a very sheltered person who leads an extremely unexamined life with no idea what it is they are actually standing up for and has no understanding of the world around them at all, which I find unlikely(though sometimes reading these forums I get the opposite impression ).

[Sunstarr]

What you are describing is someone who is not a slave. And anyone who is not a slave would not want to "hang out with" a Sith.

 

Unless you're in Bioland, where it is requried.

 

And yet, Vette still stays. Apparently you've not been paying attention here.

 

She stays, because the dynamics of the relationship changes if you treat her well . You still assert the dominance aspect, and she (can) interpret(s) that as a surrogate fatherly figure, and admits to that via cut scenes as she talks about her background.

 

The definition of slave goes beyond to what most people consider. It is not always about whips, chains and poor living conditions as it is so often portrayed. A slave can also be seen as a person who is the property of and wholly subject to another; a bond servant. How an individual treats said person is the choice of that individual, which is what we have here in "Bioland".

[juanni]

TLDR: calling yourself a media pillar when you cannot even be bothered to spell-check your wall of text is a bit of a joke.

[Vyrion]

This thread is a wonderful demonstration of Poe's Law. It is impossible to tell if the OP is trolling because the people that actually think this way are already a self satire so any satire of them is basically just a verbatim restatement of their beliefs, with maybe a bit of a twinkle in the eye.

 

Where I do agree though is that a lot of the violence Empire-side feels too knee jerk and short sighted, there should be more blackmail, assassination, demoralization etc. especially for the Inquisitor, who is mostly Son of Sam with a lightsaber. A nice quest would be something like secretly taking the family of a Republic captain hostage and telling his that unless he moves his ship out of position during a key battle you will execute them, he does as he is told and the Republic loses the battle, then you kill his family anyway to break his spirit. That kind of evil feels less random and is much more interesting.

 

Oh, and no OP, shocking Vette is not "sexual violence" just because she is female. By that logic my Inquisitor shocking all of the male NPC's he has shocked is also "sexual violence" because male is a sex as well and it sure is violent. As for kids playing this game, get over yourself, kids are people too and people in general select toward their dispositions, if a kid wants to shock then they can, otherwise they won't, and even if they do, that doesn't mean that they would do this to an actual person and to imply otherwise is absurd, stop trying to blame the creations of humans for the nature of humans.