Announcing The Old Republic Guild Summit

[Lateris]

I would love to go. I Live near Texas and can drive.

[Arandmoor]

How hard would it actually to set up a form on the website where players submit their questions, bioware picks out the top questions for various developers, those developers would then answer those questions on fridays like they did those other things during beta.

 

 

There, saves everyone heartache and stress, and gets involvement with your playerbase... and I'm not even on the community management team...

 

Because that's not a discussion. That's Q&A.

 

The single most effective way to have a back-and-forth discussion is face-to-face. Nothing (and I mean nothing) in the world is an effective replacement for a sit-down chat. Not forums, not text chat, not internet, not voice chat, not video conference. Nothing.

[Blue_Leader]

This does sound rather interesting, I must admit, and a step in the right direction.

But really, why does there need to be a "guild summit" to ask for feedback? Why not just ask the community here on the forum so we can all participate and give our feedback? I'm not trying to put anyone down, I just feel that the "guild summit" is a bit much for something that could be just as easily done on the forum and where everyone could pitch in their feedback. But maybe that's just me.

 

Still, I wish I could go, it would be neat.

 

 

Edit: After reading a few above posts about the discussion, I see the point of it now. Alrighty.

But still, could we get some discussion topics here as well? It would be nice to at least be able to discuss some things here as well, for those of us who can't go.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Blue_Leader

[Fiachsidhe]

Gathering information is always better when face to face first. When you do test case situations you normally always get an in person 1 on 1 with the users of your product for best results.

 

Because that's not a discussion. That's Q&A.

 

The single most effective way to have a back-and-forth discussion is face-to-face. Nothing (and I mean nothing) in the world is an effective replacement for a sit-down chat. Not forums, not text chat, not internet, not voice chat, not video conference. Nothing.

 

Based on what evidence? Because information exchanged face to face is THE most unreliable information in my experience/research. Anonymous posting allows people to say exactly what is on their minds. The purest form of information gathering.

 

How many major corporate meetings/decisions are done via video conference? Or over cel phones?

 

Why do you think voting is anonymous? Or polling? Why do you think the most important decisions that effect entire worlds are voted on in anonymity. It's because when you have the opportunity to present your opinions, you're free of judgment and pressure.

 

If you knew anything of psychology, you'd now face to face communication is plagued with all sorts of factors, that affect the way a person presents their opinions, and even if they present them at all.

 

People can write out a more decisive, collected, and structured presentation of ideas than they could ever present in person, and I really doubt each guild leader is going to have a power point presentation,

 

However, this isn't major, world changing exchange of idea, it's *********** VIDEO GAME DEVELOPMENT. If you think face to face information gathering is even close to a factor, you need to get out more.

 

But the biggest indication that drunk people came up with this idea, is the notion that literally thousands of dollars being siphoned from the budget of this game, to send a select few of my fellow players on a payed vacation to meet the Bioware developers for the most pointless, redundant reason imaginable, based on the assumption that guild leaders aren't idiots - is a GREAT idea.

 

So instead of that money being used, to provide the people paying for the game with bug fixes and content, it's being used so some jag with a guild rank one higher than mine can fly to Austin, sit in hotel, and reiterate the blindingly obvious to a bunch of dense developers who need a PR stunt one month after release.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Fiachsidhe

[Fiachsidhe]

How is this dramatically different from the way we do government?.

 

Everyone gets to vote when it comes to government.

[DTuloJr]

We are covering costs for a select group, which will make up a significant number of the attendees. We're obviously also covering all the other running costs for the event.

 

Obviously, there has to have been some discussions on what positive business outcome is a desired end goal for BioWare Austin. Because BWA has already had well over a year of highly valid closed beta tester feedback on issues that have NEVER been addressed, which seem to be also be repeated ad nauseum, predictably, across the live forums. The coloquial definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, expecting different results. So why is BWA soliciting additional feedback on the game, in person, when they already have an overwhelming amount of it about the same subject? Why in person? Why not have a lower cost video conference and/or GoToMeeting type of a situation?

 

I do apologize, but some of us are highly skeptical and critical, because so much has been ignored, glossed over, or been outright denied, for over a year, only to have those same issues be at the forefront of what players continue to expect and demand... to say nothing of some direct comments by BWA that basically told us that we *were* being ignored (Ohlen, 9/23/11, Gamasutra). Now, we get a notice that "the SWTOR community" is NOT being ignored. That's a good thing... but which is it?

 

While I understand everyone's opinions here, apparently we're stuck between a rock and a hard place on this one. Previously (for the Fan Site Summits) we invited a select group; we got complaints that it should have been open to others even if they paid for themselves. In this case we invite a select group and in addition open up attendance to anyone who wishes to apply, and some are frustrated that we're asking people to attend at their own expense. Like I said, we understand people's reactions, but we won't be able to please everyone.

 

Communication with your customers, especially two way, is a VERY good idea. Hold the event, in some form, no matter what people say.

 

As stated, we will have a significant presence from EU guild leaders. We are conducting the summit in English, but most of our developers are English speaking, so it's a necessity. As I stated, an EU summit of some kind is still possible at some point.

 

This is a significant business decision, as the cost of airfare alone could be monumental. Thus, I return to my original questions; what does BWA hope to get out of the event, that they could not already accomplish, via the myriad of other communications that they've already received?

 

Again, we'll have ways for people to interact with the summit who aren't present at the event. That was always part of our planning and we'll have more details soon.

 

So... like many things related to this game... this was only a partial release? ::sigh::

 

Once again, I'd like to ask for comments to remain constructive in this thread. We are proceeding with the summit and would love to hear your comments about how we can make it a success.

 

Is this a Summit, or a SWTORcon? Basically, let us know the business drivers behind holding the expensive in-person meet, what BWA intends to get out of the event, and what BWA intends to *give* out of the event, and be truly above-board with all aspects of the event, and the success of the event will take care of itself.

 

Yes, some of us are highly critical, but that's because we believe in the STAR WARS IP, and want BWA to achieve great things with it. We don't want to see BWA stop with "good enough" or something mediocre.

 

Good job. You're not done, yet.

[blakkmantis]

I hope this brings about some new ideas to Bioware, and they actually listen. I would have loved to go to this, but it's too short notice for me, and don't think I can make this trip for the summit.

 

One thing I would like to see brought up to them is a better guild invite system brought into the game.

[Fiachsidhe]

All I can say at this point, is that money wasting, player alienating, favoritism-laden PR bull **** like this, is making The Secret World look more and more appealing. I never thought I'd say that. Edited February 2, 2012 by Fiachsidhe

[skuggz]

Difference is, those who participate in government are ellected to do so. ALL of them particpate. The government doesn't "cherry pick" in that sense.

 

A) I would remind you that less than half of the populace in America votes, and that in the vast majority of offices below the State Senate, we're voting based on who we've seen more signs from, or who has a better one paragraph description in the voter handbook... and that's without even getting into the advertising dollars higher level campaigns put out to sway who gets elected. It's hardly a science.

 

B) You're right, the government doesn't randomly pick, but it's not like we all go out and vote for whoever we think would be best and then they get the job... we select from a list CHOSEN FOR US almost all the time, and every once in a great while, a write-in gets through. The government doesn't "cherry pick" persay, but, systemically, a similar process occurs. The analogy stands.

 

Frankly, I think a random grab of guild leaders is as good or better than that, and promotes a broader and less inherently biased base.

^That's just my opinion.

----------------------

"Firstly I think you misunderstand what I mean by "survey". I'm talking about multiple choice questions, with answers given that the player selects from. Perhaps with an additional place to put comments. Depending on the nature of the questions they can be precise and concise.

 

Now such a community wide survey, with a link on the launcher gives EVERYONE a chance to get involved in it. If some wish not to, then that is their perogative. But the fact still stands that a survey prevents "cherry picking" individuals to ask questions."

 

Clearly, I did misunderstand what you meant, and now that I do, I don't understand how you could possibly see it having the same effect as an actual meeting with representatives.

 

As I said before, A survey is a GREAT way to discover baseline sentiments from a broad group... but, you cannot go into depth, you cannot collaborate, you cannot plan. I have to take BW at their word that those are the purposes of this meeting. Therefore a survey, while it's something they probably SHOULD be doing, is not a viable replacement.

 

I think your fundamental disagreement with all of us is that you choose to believe the opposite of what they are saying. If you're foundational premise is that they are lying, then we can't even get on common ground to reason with you...

 

---------------

"Who says I'm not a fan of player input? This "summit" sounds more of a PR stunt than a valued means to get player input. Why? Because it doesn't actually try to actively involve the entire community. Only a select few."

 

And the input of those few isn't input? Is a frog less of a frog because it's a small frog?

You sound more exclusionary then BW does with this statement....

---------------

"I think it is unfair to infer that unguilded players are worth less, in terms of player feedback, than guilded ones. Guilds rise and fall all of the time in lots of MMO's. More often because of poor populations. Those populations are governed by what the individual player decides to do. Which in itself dispells what you claim.

 

I never said Unguilded players are lesser beings... They are part of the community as well, but if you can't understand my point.... that more responsibility, and therefore, attentiveness to the state of the game, lies with the GL... not to mention the fact that they are, by and large, having more and more consistent interactions with ALL aspects of content through their other guild members... Then I fully understand why you can't get on board with BW's reasoning.

[skuggz]

Everyone gets to vote when it comes to government.

 

Ahh yes, cling to the illusion of control... It's adorable...

[mrcaptainpants]

<snip> Even though there is very little that can be achieved in the summit that cannot be acheived via more convenient, concise, less costly and more accurate ways.

 

See, this is what I keep coming back to as well. And although there have already been a couple of official responses, it seems as though they are specifically avoiding trying to address this issue.

 

I just can't understand how flinging lots of dollar bills around to fly people out to a summit only to have them tell you the same things that everyone has already been telling you right here in your own forums makes any sense. It implies that you refuse to acknowledge it here on the forums, but if you're told about it in the summit, then it will suddenly be worth listening to.

 

I, too, hope something good will come of this summit. But it just seems as though if you were listening to us on the forums, this entire thing would not be necessary.

[Dragonexadon]

However, this isn't major, world changing exchange of idea, it's *********** VIDEO GAME DEVELOPMENT. If you think face to face information gathering is even close to a factor, you need to get out more.

.

 

This is why face to face is a big deal to me. Less condescending remarks hiding behind antonymous screen names. More productive talk with accountability.

 

Also the voting system you speak of happens after a campaign of debates, Q and As, the candidates meeting from state to state doing in person speeches, answering questions, and sharing their idea before your "vote" takes place.

 

You also mention the human psych and how in person communication is not effective. find that funny seeing as how most psychologist meet their patients in person.

 

That's neither here nor there though. I don't pretend to know the best course of action for bioware. This is the course they picked and I agree with it. If it is the wrong course they will lose money and subs. Their loss. Our lives will still go on.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Dragonexadon

[Fiachsidhe]

Ahh yes, cling to the illusion of control... It's adorable...

 

Yeah and the illusion of control is not totally blinding in this case.....it's adorable you think that after ignoring the beta testers for a year, the PTR forums and suggestion forums that this guild summit is going to be any different.

 

I was asked what the difference is. I said it. If you think this is more than an illusion of control than you're more naive, than you're attempting to make me look.

 

They chose guild leaders to butter up, because they have the most influence over the largest sums of players and may be able to convince the most amount of people to continue playing. It's PR nothing more. Their opinions don't mean jack.

 

This is Bioware imitating CCP Games

[AssistSenn]

Question number 1:

 

When will there be server mergers? Is there a target date for it ?

[WarheartZero]

WOW! People are still on here whining about something Bioware doesn't have to do, something that can only benefit us all in the end.

 

Others are right, you people will find anything to whine about. I don't get it, if you have so much hate why are you here!

 

And if your just so mad cause you expected more out of the game, your not gonna help by making everyplace you visit negative.

 

I'll get flammed, but who cares. It's ridiculous how serious people take games and allow their emotion to take over and get on the edge of having a temper tantrum about a game.

[skuggz]

All I can say at this point, is that money wasting(In your opinion), player alienating(by this you clearly mean yourself), favoritism-laden (you assume) PR bull **** (symbolic, potentially-enlightening gesture) like this, is making The Secret World look more and more appealing. I never thought I'd say that.

 

^Adjusted, as a reminder that perception isn't truth...

 

Again... I find a person who's basic premise is that BW is lying, that they don't want our input, that what we say won't matter... I'm never gonna convince you it's worth it, and vice versa, cause the reasoning has nowhere to start... So, I'm just settling for a reminder that there is more than one way to view things.

[Fiachsidhe]

1. This is why face to face is a big deal to me. Less condescending remarks hiding behind antonymous screen names. More productive talk with accountability.

 

2. Also the voting system you speak of happens after a campaign of debates, Q and As, the candidates meeting from state to state doing in person speeches, answering questions, and sharing their idea before your "vote" takes place.

 

3. You also mention the human psych and how in person communication is not effective. find that funny seeing as how most psychologist meet their patients in person.

 

 

1. Right, I'm sorry if you think people aren't condescending in person and the only way Bioware can garner such info is by showing blatant favoritism toward a small chunk of players they assume will be intelligent, polite and not totally enamored with the whole process.

 

The thing is, there are tons of non condescending posts all over these board, you're assuming Bioware is too lazy, incompetent or stupid to somehow glean the information from them because the condescending ones are just too gosh darn distracting. At least that's what I'm getting from you.

 

Because this entire event isn't also a condescending concept.

 

2. and yet EVERYONE VOTES and they do it anonymously. Those campaigns are done by those in charge. Ultimately the votes are what the common folk are involved in. That's our part.

 

3. Yes i did mention psychology, I also studied it, and spoke to psychologists enough to know that psychologists can take years, or even decades, to get a patient to actually open up and provide the information they need to heal. Funny how that works.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Fiachsidhe

[Callabhan]

Love the idea, but wouldn't it be easier to host a live chat over google+ or something? Having people pay to fly to Austin and pay for their own lodging is hardly an incentive.

[Fiachsidhe]

^Adjusted, as a reminder that perception isn't truth...

 

Again... I find a person who's basic premise is that BW is lying, that they don't want our input, that what we say won't matter... I'm never gonna convince you it's worth it, and vice versa, cause the reasoning has nowhere to start... So, I'm just settling for a reminder that there is more than one way to view things.

 

Oh thank you adjusting my post to reflect the blindingly obvious, because you have no real argument other than "That's your opinion". While ignoring the fact that such an action ALSO APPLIES TO YOUR PERCEPTION, which by the way, is being fed to you by a PR machine.

 

So aside from telling me what I can't possibly not know, do you have anything of real merit to say? Or are you just fanboying it up?

[Dragonexadon]

1. Right, I'm sorry if you think people aren't condescending in person and the only way Bioware can garner such info is by showing blatant favoritism toward a small chunk of players they assume will be intelligent, polite and not totally enamored with the whole process.

Of-course people are. It happens less in person than online though.

 

The thing is, there are tons of non condescending posts all over these board, you're assuming Bioware is too lazy, incompetent or stupid to somehow glean the information from them because the condescending ones are just too gosh darn distracting. At least that's what I'm getting from you.

I never said any of this. Bioware has been reading the forums daily it seems to me and has been responding to many of our concerns. I am over all happy with their forum presence.

 

2. and yet EVERYONE VOTES and they do it anonymously. Those campaigns are done by those in charge. Ultimately the votes are what the common folk are involved in. That's our part.

Common folk can become more involved it they wish to.

 

Yes i did mention psychology, I also studied it long enough to know that psychologists can take years, or even decades, to get a patient to actually open up and provide the information they need to heal. Funny how that works.

Have they done this faster online or via another point of communication?

 

But honestly I don't want to debate with you endlessly about this. I truly think it is a good idea. I know your points and where you are coming from. I just don't agree with you that it is not a good form of communication.

 

So in an effort to not make it a quote war back and forth I will stop it at this point. If you have other points to bring up that's fine. I still believe that it is the best form of communication through my live experience. As well as I believe it is a great move on biowares end to get feedback.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Dragonexadon

[Fiachsidhe]

Of-course people are. It happens less in person than online though.

 

I never said any of this. Bioware has been reading the forums daily it seems to me and has been responding to many of our concerns. I am over all happy with their forum presence.

 

Common folk can become more involved it they wish to.

 

 

Have they done this faster online or via another point of communication?

 

Maybe, you don't know that. If you can prove it.

 

You implied it. Otherwise it wouldn't have even been brought up. It's a non factor. Other game companies have dealt with forums without need of summits for over a decade.

 

So? Is that limited to a small number of people who can get more involved, or that a personal choice anyone can make?

 

EDIT: There are several online therapy websites and studies are going on as we speak of anonymity in psychology and how it can benefit patients. Why do you think suicide hotlines are so successful. Depressed teenagers have an easier time opening up to a peer over the phone.

http://dawnsutton.suite101.com/internet-counseling-a213809

 

What kinds of problems do people share online? A cloak of anonymity frees people to be brutally honest in sharing the most shameful moments and memories of their lives. “Are you there right now? I need to talk to someone who doesn’t know me so you can’t judge me” is the desperate plea from an eighteen-year-old girl seeking help with a family crisis.

 

People may be less condescending face to face, but anyone who knows how the human mind works and how society has functioned for centuries knows that they aren't as honest.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Fiachsidhe

[skuggz]

Yeah and the illusion of control is not totally blinding in this case.....it's adorable you think that after ignoring the beta testers for a year, the PTR forums and suggestion forums that this guild summit is going to be any different.

 

I was asked what the difference is. I said it. If you think this is more than an illusion of control than you're more naive, than you're attempting to make me look.

 

They chose guild leaders to butter up, because they have the most influence over the largest sums of players and may be able to convince the most amount of people to continue playing. It's PR nothing more. Their opinions don't mean jack.

 

This is Bioware imitating CCP Games

 

Ok, first, sorry, I was more making a social-political statement at your expense. Which is bad form.

 

Honestly, yes... I do think this is a symbolic gesture Pretty sure I said that... If you look back... I was the one who proposed that these two iterations of this phenomena (US politics, and this summit) were similar in the first place.

 

My point is that we've trusted that there is power in that symbolism for 200 years with our government... why couldn't it be the same here?

 

We've assumed that rule by a few can get things done better than rule en masse for much longer than that...

 

I'm just saying this is not some crazy notion BW picked up just to "butter up" a specific group.

 

I've said it too many times already, but reason doesn't matter here. You say they're lying, I'm assuming they're not... and we're both carrying our assumptions out to a logical conclusion....

 

On a side note... I hope they become a bit more like CCP... They certainly have problems too, but I HAVE seen action from them to fix those... Clearly, I'm the optimist here, who believes that BW can become more like that.

[PyxisNautica]

I think many of you here are misunderstanding the purpose of this summit (or perhaps *I* am).

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the purpose of this guild summit to provide an open dialogue between guild leaders and developers regarding issues that affect GUILDS and not overall gameplay?

 

If that's the case, those of you who choose to remain guildless won't have much to contribute to this particular conversation.

[Dragonexadon]

Maybe, you don't know that. If you can prove it.

This is true I do not have the stats on it. However in my 27 years of life I have been cussed out more online than in person

 

have been made fun of more online than in person

 

and have had my life threatened only online and never in person. So currently I am speaking just from experience.

You implied it. Otherwise it wouldn't have even been brought up. It's a non factor. Other game companies have dealt with forums without need of summits for over a decade.

When they were first inventing the telephone I am sure people said

 

"we have used telegrams for decades and we were fine!"

 

The comparison is not exactly 1 to 1. Having conventions, summits, and other form of player to delevoper communication is nothing new. The point though is that just because it "worked fine" does not mean there are other methods that could work better.

So? Is that limited to a small number of people who can get more involved, or that a personal choice anyone can make?

Bioware already stated they will open this up to the public and more details to come on it. Most likely a live stream format.

[Tarka]

I think many of you here are misunderstanding the purpose of this summit (or perhaps *I* am).

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the purpose of this guild summit to provide an open dialogue between guild leaders and developers regarding issues that affect GUILDS and not overall gameplay?

 

If that's the case, those of you who choose to remain guildless won't have much to contribute to this particular conversation.

 

In many respects, what affects guilds also affects ALL players, regardless of whether they are in a guild or not.

 

Besides no mention has been made that the subjects being discussed specifically pertain to guilds.

 

"The goal of the summit is to facilitate an open discussion between guild leaders and the game design team. This event will provide an opportunity for attendees to voice their feedback directly to the teams responsible for the design of Star Wars: The Old Republic, hear the team’s thoughts and reasons behind design decisions, and discuss the current direction of the game."

Edited February 2, 2012 by Tarka