Gear based PvP is amateur hour

[Yazule]

.People have been wanting a PvP game that was based on their ability, as opposed to what they wear, for years. This is not it.

 

 

PvP'ers (unless you live with Mom) have been looking for this for years. SWTOR is not it.

 

call of duty

Battlefield

soldier of fortune

tribes

 

 

these are ability based games with no gear ftw

 

you are a fps guy, you just got the wrong gametype in your head

 

fyi planetside2 is going to beta, an mmofps maybe that is for you

 

 

personal opnion, remove the "bound" field in all gear and give full looting rights to everyone, oh and put item decay in game, problem solved vs gear hoarders as well as a nice pick me up for crafters as their gear will actually be in demand.

[_Marou_]

There can be progression outside of gear, which if you have PvP progression is where things should be focused.

 

RR10 players in DAoC had more special limited use abilities than a fresh 50, but they were wearing gear of the exact same caliber. That RR10 player might be able to activate *ignore pain* for 1 free heal every 5 minutes, and hit a similar button for recovering his mana/resources, but he didn't do significantly more damage than a brand new player.

 

You can give players abilities that add to their flexibility without making crap inaccessible to new players. You can't capture the same magic with gear.

 

DAoC had a bunch of smart ideas. You also had things like do 2/4/6/8/10% more damage (5 ranks), but each rank was exponentially more expensive, so most people would dabble 4-8% and grab more versatility abilities.

 

It also had a bunch of bad ideas, but every game does. At least they got PvP progression right.

Edited February 27, 2012 by _Marou_

[Jestunhi]

.People have been wanting a PvP game that was based on their ability, as opposed to what they wear, for years. This is not it.

 

 

PvP'ers (unless you live with Mom) have been looking for this for years. SWTOR is not it.

 

No, this is not it.

 

Nor was it ever advertised as such.

 

You could buy Fifa 2012 and make the same complaint... doesn't mean there's a problem, just that you were expecting something which was never going to be here.

[jolleebindu]

.People have been wanting a PvP game that was based on their ability, as opposed to what they wear, for years. This is not it.

 

 

PvP'ers (unless you live with Mom) have been looking for this for years. SWTOR is not it.

 

You would have the same problem with allowing people to enter wz's in raid gear.

[Zbus]

call of duty

Battlefield

soldier of fortune

tribes

 

 

these are ability based games with no gear ftw

 

you are a fps guy, you just got the wrong gametype in your head

 

fyi planetside2 is going to beta, an mmofps maybe that is for you

 

 

personal opnion, remove the "bound" field in all gear and give full looting rights to everyone, oh and put item decay in game, problem solved vs gear hoarders as well as a nice pick me up for crafters as their gear will actually be in demand.

 

To be honest thier is a subset of pvp players that laugh at even those games due to the power ups and heal packs and a hit point system. Played a game called ww2online latter renamed battle ground europe with a half scale map of europe with real physics like 2.5k distance view,travel time,and shell reaction like spalling and such.

 

Needless to say most of the guys claiming to be pvp gods in these games would rage quit in a day after getting poped for the 100th time by a guy with no scope only iron sights nailing them from 600 meters away and them never knowing what or who killed them.

 

The skill in that game was not bunny hopping or how fast you could pres a key combo but in placement and useing conceled movement that matched the terrain you played in. Also it was about working in combined ops of land air and sometimes sea power useing real life tactics. Bunny hop in that game and your dead in 1 shot lol.

[moomtazz]

I'm not sure how much you people played DAOC, but a RR10 was a beast compared to a RR1 or even RR5, in the same gear. The RR10 would have things like higher crit, higher stats, self heal, etc all based off of his accumulated realm points. Dont forget at RR5 you got bonus damage too.

 

If you look at DAOC and SWTOR, pvp progession is one thing...TIME. It could take someone over a year to get to RR10. Even in a good 8 man gank group farming the zerg, it would take an alt a couple of months to hit RR10, and that was if the rest of the group were already RR10 or close to it.

 

It took me a while to see it, but just because a fresh 50 in daoc could wear the exct same template as a RR10, they were about the equivalent of a SWTOR going into pvp with greens versus a battlemaster.

 

So here I am as a valor 55 vanguard, and I ***** and moan all the time about how the imps are all gear, which they are, but I have finally come to realize it is nothing different than DAOC realm ranks....except I will get to that RR10 (BM) much much faster than I would have as a casual solo player in DAOC.

[_Marou_]

I'm not sure how much you people played DAOC, but a RR10 was a beast compared to a RR1 or even RR5, in the same gear. The RR10 would have things like higher crit, higher stats, self heal, etc all based off of his accumulated realm points. Dont forget at RR5 you got bonus damage too.

 

If you look at DAOC and SWTOR, pvp progession is one thing...TIME. It could take someone over a year to get to RR10. Even in a good 8 man gank group farming the zerg, it would take an alt a couple of months to hit RR10, and that was if the rest of the group were already RR10 or close to it.

 

It took me a while to see it, but just because a fresh 50 in daoc could wear the exct same template as a RR10, they were about the equivalent of a SWTOR going into pvp with greens versus a battlemaster.

 

So here I am as a valor 55 vanguard, and I ***** and moan all the time about how the imps are all gear, which they are, but I have finally come to realize it is nothing different than DAOC realm ranks....except I will get to that RR10 (BM) much much faster than I would have as a casual solo player in DAOC.

 

I played the hell out of DAoC. If you ever went to DAoC Catacombs you probably planned your char on our calculators.

 

Yes, an RR10 was a beast, but he wasn't a beast for the same reasons you hit in this game. He didn't have 40% more HPs, do 50% more damage, and take 50% less damage + recieve 10-13% extra healing. That's what this game is, greens vs geared. You can say it's comparable but it's really not.

Edited February 27, 2012 by _Marou_

[Irishbrewed]

The fattest guy in the room rules pvp in this game...Nuff said Edited February 27, 2012 by Irishbrewed

[Dansully]

Oh yes it has. They kept telling us how great PVP would be because they got all the best ideas from Warhammer or something like that (lol?).

 

And I disagree that this kind of progression based PVP is PVP at all. It's just PVE all over again, with some of the players taking on the role of a mob. You're not playing against the other player, you're playing against his gear, so it's not PVP.

 

Actually you are playing against another player with reaction times and a method of strategy and play style. Gear as a crutch is a cop out for those who don't appreciate a gear grind.

 

A fresh 50 can take out someone in full BM gear because of a mass quantity of skill involved. The gear differences in this game between no PvP gear at all and full BM gear are so ridiculously minor its not even funny.

[Vydor_HC]

For me the bottom line is there is a plethora of example that have in depth pvp to choose from. They could have taken their time and delivered a "best in class" game for PvP, or at least something that would keep players from reaching the pinnacle in mere months. Yet, the PvP options they gave us seem to be copies of the worst mistakes made by previous games.

[ShizuXIII]

I'm not sure how much you people played DAOC, but a RR10 was a beast compared to a RR1 or even RR5, in the same gear. The RR10 would have things like higher crit, higher stats, self heal, etc all based off of his accumulated realm points. Dont forget at RR5 you got bonus damage too.

 

 

I played DAoC a lot pre-ToA. Druid RR8.

A RR10 had a distinct edge over a RR1, but it's an extreme scenario.

 

It was very easy to quickly reach RR4 or 5 (even in the battlegrounds, against player of the same level and realm rank), wich was more than enough to fill the bigger gaps against a RR10.

 

And with the exponential increase in the cost of multi-level realm abilities, the difference between a RR5 and a RR10 wasn't even that great.

By "not that great" I mean a good RR5 was able to beat an average RR10.

Two equally skilled players? Then yes, the RR10 beats the RR5 most of the times.

But that's to be expected in a mmorpg.

 

Also, DAoC had a heavy emphasis on group gameplay. It wasn't a game for lone cowboys, so the whole "RR10 vs RR5" argument is even more irrelevant.

Hardcore pvp guilds running with full parties of RR8-10 was annoying for the casuals sometimes, but that's when they called the strong guilds from their own realm.

REALM vs REALM.

 

 

So what could we learn from DAoC, but all the modern developers fail to achieve every single time?

- gear progression isn't the sole conceivable goal to put in a game. Pre-ToA DAoC proved it

- a character progression of some sort can be implemented, without making it totally imbalanced between fresh and veteran pvpers. Again, DAoC proved it. The first realm ranks was easily attainable, giving a fresh pvper some 30-40 realm points to spend in 1-2 weeks.

- dedication was still rewarded. RR10 had an edge over a RR5, but not so insurmountable to discourage the RR5 from even trying.

 

 

I'm not one of those "copy/paste DAoC to achieve great pvp" people.

But some concepts really REALLY need to be retraced, revamped and implemented in a modern mmorpg.

We'll see if GW2 manages it. Not holding my breath.

Edited February 27, 2012 by ShizuXIII

[Keldaur]

in an mmo

 

E-Sports are much more skill-based

 

So you didn't played AoC. You can count fighting games as e-sports, and they don't require the skill, aim and movement skills AoC required, not to speak quantity of keybinding combinations. Yep, you got combo's, herp derp.

 

You are right, most MMO's can't even get close the skillcap on those games, but atleast show some knowledge instead of being the parrot who says whatever other people says.

[Bobby_Dazzler]

Translated to in-game: You see a guy in much better gear (the Porsche in my example above)... run. He's better than you (face it, yes he is), has worked harder, longer than you, and has EARNED the right to the advantage. BUT NEWSFLASH!!!!!! Just like RL, you too have the exact same opportunity to be in the same position. You just have to EARN it.

 

Exaggeration and trolling aside I really hope (for your sake) that you're not that naive in real life.

 

This game does not take that long to get champ gear; I've done it twice and I'd rate myself as casual. One character ahead of the curve (who at the time was almost unkillable) and one behind it (who was a tank and died ten times as quickly). Funny how my "skill" was determined significantly by the gear of those around me. I think people are worried that with the rumoured gear updates it will become even more gear based. At that point I will quit (no drama pls).

 

Finally just because mmos typically are gear based doesn't mean that they have to be. Fair, skill-based gameplay is ten times as rewarding as any gear they could possibly give me

[Rogmar]

Actually you are playing against another player with reaction times and a method of strategy and play style. Gear as a crutch is a cop out for those who don't appreciate a gear grind.

 

A fresh 50 can take out someone in full BM gear because of a mass quantity of skill involved. The gear differences in this game between no PvP gear at all and full BM gear are so ridiculously minor its not even funny.

 

What a joke. I have BM/Rakata and I crush opponents when I see they have 13-14k health. They will never win a fight because of how much stronger I am statistically.

[moomtazz]

1v1 BM gear has a not insurmountable advantage over centurion

 

What happens when you get 8 BM vs 8 centurion? Is it still a small advantage?

 

Ask a republic player on almost any server.

[Irishbrewed]

1v1 BM gear has a not insurmountable advantage over centurion

 

What happens when you get 8 BM vs 8 centurion? Is it still a small advantage?

 

Ask a republic player on almost any server.

 

Yeah that's bs....

[Darth_Gao_Gao]

looks like someone shouldn't be playing MMOs.

[UA_Wookie]

Protip: Its call carrot on the stick. Gives incentive/reason to actually pvp.

 

Yeah, heaven forbid people actually want to play a game to have FUN anymore!

 

Heaven help kids today...

[Irishbrewed]

Yeah, heaven forbid people actually want to play a game to have FUN anymore!

 

Heaven help kids today...

 

No worries guild wars 2 understands what pvpers want..

 

Competitive pvp that takes gear out the equation.

 

Gear grinds are for pve heads IMO.

[Zombifikation]

thats not true.. Guild Wars made it and GW2 is going for it as well.. its called compettetive PvP. All have same gear, access to same skills. If you want to be different, you change your look, but stats remain.. thats it..

 

Basically this. PvP should be about skill not gear. Work toward vanity items and special items but not gear. What a lot of mmos lack is a lifetime stat keepig system, so people can compare to others based on kills, wins, objectives capped/defended, etc. If thwy had that then not having gear to grind for would be secondary, since people could then focus on their stats and not how uber their gear is vs everyone else.

 

It should be "I'm the best bc my stats say so" not "because I have better gear than you."

[kickinhead]

.People have been wanting a PvP game that was based on their ability, as opposed to what they wear, for years.

 

ever heard of guild wars?

[Nuzt]

DAOC's skill based system.

 

Why more companies dont look at this is beyond me.

 

Much better then gear based. Towards the end they made RP's way to easy to earn but still a superior system. Part of the issue is most present day gamers come from WoW so they probably would be up in arms if they didn't have the gear grind. I don't mean that as an insult and I might even be wrong but somehow I don't think I am.

[MPagano]

Those of you saying there needs to be a carrot to dangle are mistaken. Interestingly enough, there only needs to be an incentive like that when there's nothing about the gameplay to draw the player in.

 

DAoC players would spend years (literally) sieging the same keeps. That sounds boring as I type it, but I was there, and I remember the rush that never waned. We didnt' PvP to equip some cool helm or to get more of a stat that meant nothing. We did it for the glory.

 

I'm not saying that everyone should love pvp with no gear component. What I'm saying is that "true" pvp'ers are looking for that. We do love to siege the same keep for years. We want the persistent realm filled with objectives and landmarks with strategic utility. Our incentive to pvp in games like DAoC is to pvp. That's it! It's a means to its own end.

 

I want to see my guild's emblem hanging from the ramparts. I want to be there when we smash down the gates and flood the courtyard. I want to contribute to the 8 hours back-and-forth that has been taking place amongst three factions over a relic keep.

 

I still get chills thinking about those moments in gaming. Going to bed, waking up the next morning and logging in to find that this battle never subsided. All factions swapped out players to sleep, but everyone maintained their numbers and refused to let up.

 

I don't get chills when I remember getting the server first Ragnaros or Nef kill. I'm not a "true" pve'er.

 

GW2 is the first game (since WAR) to come remotely close to offering this. So those of you who are wondering if there is more to PvP than expertise, or resilience, or whatever dumb bloated mechanic used...there is. I'm not telling you GW2 is going to be the best game of all time. But it's free to play, and if you've never tasted this sort of visceral, patriotic and frenzied world pvp design, I invite you to join the rest of us and see for yourself what we're all longing for in every new MMO that has the slightest hint of pvp.

Edited February 27, 2012 by MPagano

[Nuzt]

Those of you saying there needs to be a carrot to dangle are mistaken. Interestingly enough, there only needs to be an incentive like that when there's nothing about the gameplay to draw the player in.

 

DAoC players would spend years (literally) sieging the same keeps. That sounds boring as I type it, but I was there, and I remember the rush that never waned. We didnt' PvP to equip some cool helm or to get more of a stat that meant nothing. We did it for the glory.

 

I'm not saying that everyone should love pvp with no gear component. What I'm saying is that "true" pvp'ers are looking for that. We do love to siege the same keep for years. We want the persistent realm filled with objectives and landmarks with strategic utility. Our incentive to pvp in games like DAoC is to pvp. That's it! It's a means to its own end.

 

I want to see my guild's emblem hanging from the ramparts. I want to be there when we smash down the gates and flood the courtyard. I want to contribute to the 8 hours back-and-forth that has been taking place amongst three factions over a relic keep.

 

I still get chills thinking about those moments in gaming. Going to bed, waking up the next morning and logging in to find that this battle never subsided. All factions swapped out players to sleep, but everyone maintained their numbers and refused to let up.

 

I don't get chills when I remember getting the server first Ragnaros or Nef kill. I'm not a "true" pve'er.

 

GW2 is the first game (since WAR) to come remotely close to offering this. So those of you who are wondering if there is more to PvP than expertise, or resilience, or whatever dumb bloated mechanic used...there is. I'm not telling you GW2 is going to be the best game of all time. But it's free to play, and if you've never tasted this sort of visceral, patriotic and frenzied world pvp design, I invite you to join the rest of us and see for yourself what we're all longing for in every new MMO that has the slightest hint of pvp.

 

The bold, good times theres never been anything like a battle that lasts an entire weekend since, not a special event either this was just the way it was on a regular basis.

[moomtazz]

1v1 BM gear has a not insurmountable advantage over centurion

 

What happens when you get 8 BM vs 8 centurion? Is it still a small advantage?

 

Ask a republic player on almost any server.