No, You May Not Roll on Items for Another Class and Strip Out the Mods

[VanorDM]

One side counts the primary toon in the group as being more important to playing in that group than a companion. The other doesn't.

 

This the crux of the matter yes.

 

You can exist without your companion - the other way isn't true.

 

Yes but my companion can exist with out you.

 

The way I look at it, is my companion will be with me for around 90% of the game, you won't be. As such if something is an upgrade for me, via my companion then it's still an upgrade for me. As such I have as much right to it as anyone else in the group. Not more right, but the same amount. I helped fight the thing that gave us that item. The fact that you will equip it on your character or even do so right now doesn't give you more rights to it.

 

Now if you spend the majority of your time doing FP's, Op's, heroics and the like then I expect that you'll have a different opinion on the matter. Because for you the companion has a much smaller impact on your game play.

[Loendar]

This is an irrelevant point, however. It doesn't matter if the companion aids you. It aids its main character, and it has upgrade needs that the player is choosing to facilitate through Flashpoint or Operation drops. You shouldn't be in a position where you can tell another player their desire to upgrade their companion with gear of their choice has less priority than you or another player. And you aren't in that position, even though it appears you'd like to be. As a result, a player has the ability to roll Need on something to upgrade a companion, and there's nothing wrong with them exercising that right, as their desire to upgrade their companion is equal to their desire to upgrade themselves, and likewise equal to your desire to upgrade yourself.

 

It isn't irrelevant at all.

 

You are choosing to participate in an aspect of the game with another GROUP of players. It is content that you and your companion (no matter how many loot roles you have given them) are likely never be able to complete just the two of you.

 

You are deciding, on behalf of those unfortunates unwilling grouping with you, that you will use the group game to further your personal solo game - possibly to the detriment of their game.

 

The majority of people grouping content are doing it to get ahead on their main toon for future Flashpoints/Operations - not to continue solo'ing merrily along with Kira. Roughly 90 percent of the game/rewards already cater to the solo population and doesn't require any grouping gathered items, ever.

 

On one hand you are helping your group mates advance because you are a team player and perhaps would like to enter into the next tier with them. On the other side you are in it for nobody but yourself and your immediate needs while ignoring the fact that you can accomplish those goals without ever spoiling the legitimate goals of other players.

[crica]

What a player is wearing at that moment should decide thier level of need.

 

Why do you keep insisting that other players must be forced to use your gearing priorities?

 

If you do not wish other players to roll Need on an item you want, be sure to form your own groups and set it to Master Looter, or more simply, ask them not to roll Need on the items you want and see if they agree.

 

Then you will have no issues.

[Loendar]

This the crux of the matter yes.

 

 

 

Yes but my companion can exist with out you.

 

The way I look at it, is my companion will be with me for around 90% of the game, you won't be. As such if something is an upgrade for me, via my companion then it's still an upgrade for me. As such I have as much right to it as anyone else in the group. Not more right, but the same amount. I helped fight the thing that gave us that item. The fact that you will equip it on your character or even do so right now doesn't give you more rights to it.

 

Now if you spend the majority of your time doing FP's, Op's, heroics and the like then I expect that you'll have a different opinion on the matter. Because for you the companion has a much smaller impact on your game play.

 

Then play the solo game and don't group. Don't use other people to serve your selfish ends to gear up your preferred solo playstyle.

 

Simple - you clearly don't need the gear to play in the manner your attitude would suggest.

[VanorDM]

I have yet to hear a truely compelling argument to the contrary.

I doubt there's anything anyone can say that will change your mind then.

 

My only request and I'd say the only way to resolve this is for people to actually discuss the loot rules prior to the group starting.

 

Appeals to "unwritten rules" and "common curiosity" after the fact will result in nothing other then loot drama and very likely a disbanded group.

[Loendar]

I doubt there's anything anyone can say that will change your mind then.

 

My only request and I'd say the only way to resolve this is for people to actually discuss the loot rules prior to the group starting.

 

Appeals to "unwritten rules" and "common curiosity" after the fact will result in nothing other then loot drama and very likely a disbanded group.

 

I think we can all agree with that. Upfront communication is the only way to know if your chosen group has decided to abandon established MMO social conventions. ;p

[Grecanis]

Why do you keep insisting that other players must be forced to use your gearing priorities?

 

If you do not wish other players to roll Need on an item you want, be sure to form your own groups and set it to Master Looter, or more simply, ask them not to roll Need on the items you want and see if they agree.

 

Then you will have no issues.

 

"Should" being the optimal word in that quote ..you may have missed that

 

I do form my own groups ..and I kick jawa's (except Blizz)

[Calsetes]

I'll say it in case nobody else will.

 

Yes, it matters to us Sentinels when your Sage rolls need on Smuggler stuff, because you are affecting everyone in thr group when the Smuggler could have used that to deal more damage or heal better. Yes, we're being so greedy because of that.

 

Honestly, I'm pretty much done with the whole argument, because all the arguments boil down to people justifying them as "my definition of need and greed is right because it's my definition." And it's not worth the headache, honestly. If the person isn't willing to change their mindset, then screw it - simple solution is do not play with them again, and an immediate solution after asking them to stop is just booting them from the party.

 

If you're not part of the solution, then you're part of the problem, and other such words of wisdom.

[Eldren]

It isn't irrelevant at all.

 

You are choosing to participate in an aspect of the game with another GROUP of players. It is content that you and your companion (no matter how many loot roles you have given them) are likely never be able to complete just the two of you.

 

You are deciding, on behalf of those unfortunates unwilling grouping with you, that you will use the group game to further your personal solo game - possibly to the detriment of their game.

 

Let's assume we're talking about PUGs here, as loot distribution is rarely an issue in guild or friend runs.

 

Yes, I'm deciding that I'm using the group game to further my personal game. However, I'm not deciding it on behalf of other players, solely on behalf of myself. Just as every other player in that group is.[ Each player is cooperating to have a chance at loot that drops that they personally want. It will have future group utility and future personal utility, and both are equal.

 

The majority of people grouping content are doing it to get ahead on their main toon for future Flashpoints/Operations - not to continue solo'ing merrily along with Kira. Roughly 90 percent of the game/rewards already cater to the solo population and doesn't require any grouping gathered items, ever.

 

On one hand you are helping your group mates advance because you are a team player and perhaps would like to enter into the next tier with them. On the other side you are in it for nobody but yourself and your immediate needs while ignoring the fact that you can accomplish those goals without ever spoiling the legitimate goals of other players.

 

You're going to have to show me your statistics when you start using terms like "the majority". People are running that content, in my observation, to gear themselves up, and as this thread makes amply evident, they're doing so for a variety of reasons.

 

You're right, I'm in it for nobody but myself, and I cooperate with others so I have a chance to get gear I couldn't get on my own. My obligation to the group extends as far as assisting them all in reaching that same goal: to have a chance at gear they want which they can't acquire on their own. But the instant the loot drops, every single player is rolling for themselves, not for the group.

[VanorDM]

I think we can all agree with that. Upfront communication is the only way to know if your chosen group has decided to abandon established MMO social conventions. ;p

 

"Established MMO social conventions" don't work here, because the system here is different then every other MMO out there.

Edited January 30, 2012 by VanorDM

[ferroz]

You are deciding, on behalf of those unfortunates unwilling grouping with you, that you will use the group game to further your personal solo game - possibly to the detriment of their game.

False. I'm deciding that I'll use the group game to further my personal game: solo, group, and raid all. Just like they're using the group to further their personal game: solo group and raid all as they chose.

 

 

Roughly 90 percent of the game/rewards already cater to the solo population and doesn't require any grouping gathered items, ever.

I don't see your point. 90 percent of the game/rewards that cater to the group population also doesn't require any group gathered items, ever.

 

You don't NEED the drops. Period. You WANT them, plain and simple; deciding that your wants are somehow legitimate than someone else's wants is extremely self centered.

 

On one hand you are helping your group mates advance because you are a team player and perhaps would like to enter into the next tier with them. On the other side you are in it for nobody but yourself and your immediate needs while ignoring the fact that you can accomplish those goals without ever spoiling the legitimate goals of other players.

Lets not be absurd eh? In both cases, you are advancing yourself with the aid of a group, working toward whatever priorities you have with the game. Painting yourself as some sort of martyr, when the reality is that you're upset about not getting loot that you've decided belongs to you without having to win it is being extremely disingenuous. Edited January 30, 2012 by ferroz

[Setanian]

What other standpoint is there to judge from. Except the knowlege of what's right and wrong. These Jawa's know that also and yet continue on with no regard for thier fellows.

 

Unless you're some chemically imbalanced sociopath, you know the difference between right and wrong. If they have no objections to disrespect in a digital world, chances are they'll take whatever opportunities arise in rl to do the same. The only thing stopping them is that in rl there are actually consequences.

 

I'm pretty sure you have no medical degrees to tell us about sociopaths. Additionally, in relation to your comment about what people do in game being reflected in Rl was pulled from some dark place, as it has been proven, people rarely act the same in and out of game.

 

Basically, all, irrelevant.

[sjmc]

All I ask is that people take the other three members of thier group into concideration before rolling need.

I respect my fellow players enough to let them decide for themselves what they need. I'm not going to check everyone's character sheet at each battle to see if their need is higher/lower than mine.

 

If I do roll need on an item, I am not taking away their right to roll need if they so choose.

 

Depending on how much I might need an item, I might wait to see if anyone else presses need first. I'm probably not going to take something that adds +1 to my main stat when the item might complete someone's perfect set of "Super Awesome Marauder Armor". +1 to my stats is easy to get, while the final leg piece of your appearance might not be. On something that is really important to you, it might be worth speaking up and saying so.

 

Is there really that much loot out there that is so awesome that you can't continue the game if you don't win it? Other than orange gear, most loot that I have won has gotten outleveled in a few days at most. Orange gear is a special case and there are more reasons than just the included stats that someone might need it to progress their character as they are looking to do.

[Setanian]

I think we can all agree with that. Upfront communication is the only way to know if your chosen group has decided to abandon established MMO social conventions. ;p

 

No we can't. Where you polled that statistic from is anyone's guess. My guess is you posted it hoping someone will agree to it.

 

Established? How can you can have establish, when BW added something to the game, i.e.: companions, that are in no other.

 

Your assumption is incorrect.

[Kashaan]

As neither of those factors are needs, a restricted system would work fine.

 

Then the rules would actually somewhat mirror common practice and the selfish among us would lose thier only argument.

 

 

This is just plain false. Not to mention only your personal opinion on what a need is.

 

 

The vast majority of the game is played with a companion. There is a compelling argument that gear for companions is a need.

 

Orange equipment is BW's version of an Appearance tab. Appearance means a lot in MMOs, and could easily be argued to be a need.

 

 

See, this is exactly the problem. You have an opinion on what you consider a need and are highly restrictive in it's definition. But what people like you can't get through their skulls is that not everyone has the same definition for what qualifies as "needable".

 

For the record, I do follow the "golden rule" of looting. If something is an upgrade for someone that can use it, I will greed. Sometimes I will ask if I can need too.

 

However, what I'm able to understand that many of you don't is that your way is not the "right" way. You cannot expect everyone to adhere to your rules, and it would be entirely ridiculous to restrict people from Needing on gear if they have plausible reason to. Which is what greying out the button if it's not for your class would do.

 

Communicate, don't regulate.

[Grecanis]

I'm pretty sure you have no medical degrees to tell us about sociopaths. Additionally, in relation to your comment about what people do in game being reflected in Rl was pulled from some dark place, as it has been proven, people rarely act the same in and out of game.

 

Basically, all, irrelevant.

 

A person doesn't need a degree to obtain observational skills.

 

To your other point ..I would say the lack of civil discourse prevelent in todays society would indicate differently.

[ferroz]

A person doesn't need a degree to obtain observational skills.

Yes, but observational skills alone are not sufficient to diagnose ASPD... nor do observational skills mean that you know anything at all about the disorder. Pretending otherwise is kind of asinine.

 

I'm not saying that you can't talk about it without a medical degree, just that you're not defending that point in any way.

 

Oh, and that you're flinging around a label instead of an actual argument. But that's neither here nor there.

Edited January 30, 2012 by ferroz

[Eldren]

A person doesn't need a degree to obtain observational skills.

 

To your other point ..I would say the lack of civil discourse prevelent in todays society would indicate differently.

 

This is an entirely unconnected aside, but as I do happen to have a medical degree that allows me to properly diagnose sociopathy (an outdated term, btw; the current clinical term according to the APA is Antisocial Personality Disorder), I can say that observational skills alone don't constitute a reliable diagnosis, particularly since this is such a highly misunderstood and debated condition to begin with. Trust me, you're going to want to be sure your diagnosis is accurate when you're mucking around with peoples' mental state and declarations of fitness (or the lack thereof).

[Walfredo]

It's pretty simple, Need > Greed > Disassemble.

 

If you're disassembling something for its parts to use, reverse engineer, whatever, you're being even more greedy than someone who's just going to vendor/sell it on the market.

 

Disassemble should NOT take precedence over a greed roll. I've noticed in a lot of PUGs I'm in that people roll Disassemble as their greed roll. That is completely *** backwards.

[sjmc]

The majority of people grouping content are doing it to get ahead on their main toon for future Flashpoints/Operations - not to continue solo'ing merrily along with Kira.

I think there are probably a lot of reasons why people do grouping content. A lot of people group to do the group quests as they are levelling and then go back to soloing on the next planet. A lot of people do occasional flashpoints and then go back to doing quests. A lot of people solo most of the time but need good gear so that they have a better chance in PVP.

 

If you are on a PVP server, then you are going to want you and your companion well geared (beyond what is required for solo content) or you will be at a disadvantage when you encounter the enemy.

[Eldren]

It's pretty simple, Need > Greed > Disassemble.

 

If you're disassembling something for its parts to use, reverse engineer, whatever, you're being even more greedy than someone who's just going to vendor/sell it on the market.

 

Disassemble should NOT take precedence over a greed roll. I've noticed in a lot of PUGs I'm in that people roll Disassemble as their greed roll. That is completely *** backwards.

 

According to whom should a disassembly not take precedence over a greed roll? If you're going to make absolute statements, at least back them up with facts, because in this case, what you're stating is an opinion.

[Ronamo]

Not that it will likely make a difference to those arguing in favor of cosmetic gearing, but as an aside to the argument of "everbody participated equally, they should have equal chances at the loot" train of discussion, as it may have an impact on those suggesting that players simply "solo the content later for the aesthetic gear you want":

 

Ostensibly, gear in flashpoints drops for the classes (n.b. base, not advanced classes) which participate. If, for example, you have four Troopers running a flashpoint, you should see only heavy +aim armor, blaster rifles, and assault cannons, eschewing any "accessory" gear drops (non-weapon offhands, relics, implants, earpieces).

 

If you do not have a class capable of wearing the armor class intended to boost their performance and durability through their maximum armor and stats, said armor will not drop. I am not 100% certain that medium +strength armor will not drop for Guardians / Juggernauts, as heavy aim tanking gear and balster rifles do still drop for Commandos, but I do not believe that medium cunning armor will drop for Knights.

 

Without the person putting in the time and effort within a group setting, the gear with stats (regardless of its modability) intended to augment their class performance will not drop. However, if a companion is present whose armor and stat type does not fall into the subset of all performance enhancing gears for the rest of the group, that type will be added to the drop tables (i.e., three light willpower users and one heavy aim tank companion will yield light armor, and heavy +aim armor, but no medium or +strength heavy armor).

 

This has been my empirical understanding through all the flashpoints I've run, and through anecdotal evidence offered by other players. If it is not the case, please do speak up.

 

In short, what this offers is the viewpoint that without said player, the loot would not even be available.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Ronamo

[Setanian]

The problem is, that equal chance becomes nil the moment someone presses need.

 

What a player is wearing at that moment should decide thier level of need. External factors such as aesthetics and companions, IMO, do not rise to that level.

 

I have yet to hear a truely compelling argument to the contrary.

 

What the player is wearing has absolutely nothing to do with their level of need. Sure, they maybe wearing rags but they might roll need on an item for their companion. That's how I play. My companion is my tank, so I gear him as primary aim, my character comes second.

 

Regardless of any of that, I don't need a reason for anyone else to press 'need', once I want to press it, that's all that matters. The other 3 people can decide for themselves, I am certainly not going to dictate which button they press, and as such, I don't expect to them to dictate to me.

[Grecanis]

This is just plain false. Not to mention only your personal opinion on what a need is.

 

..and I'm pleased that the vast majority of those I come across share that opinion.

 

 

The vast majority of the game is played with a companion. There is a compelling argument that gear for companions is a need.

 

Did the companion contribute to the instance? ..if no then it becomes an external factor and should not rise to the level of need.

 

Orange equipment is BW's version of an Appearance tab. Appearance means a lot in MMOs, and could easily be argued to be a need.

 

No, it's not.

 

Explain to me how appearence improves a characters chances to succeed.

 

See, this is exactly the problem. You have an opinion on what you consider a need and are highly restrictive in it's definition. But what people like you can't get through their skulls is that not everyone has the same definition for what qualifies as "needable".

 

For the record, I do follow the "golden rule" of looting. If something is an upgrade for someone that can use it, I will greed. Sometimes I will ask if I can need too.

 

However, what I'm able to understand that many of you don't is that your way is not the "right" way. You cannot expect everyone to adhere to your rules, and it would be entirely ridiculous to restrict people from Needing on gear if they have plausible reason to. Which is what greying out the button if it's not for your class would do.

 

Communicate, don't regulate.

 

But at the same time you are forcing your notion of what a need is on the other three members of the group. Somewhat hypocritical isn't it?

Edited January 30, 2012 by Grecanis

[ferroz]

According to whom should a disassembly not take precedence over a greed roll? If you're going to make absolute statements, at least back them up with facts, because in this case, what you're stating is an opinion.

eh, given how often disassemble is bugged (destroys the item, noone gets anything), I'm kind of in favor of removing it... at least until it gets fixed.