Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

[Arlon_Nabarlly]

I remember there were several months where I had really bad ability delay (I believe during 1.2). I haven't seen it much if at all since then.

[lordtwig]

The stuttering after 1.4 was real enough. That game was still playable, but it was occasionally hard on the eyes. I'm glad they fixed that. (At least for me. I wouldn't want to make a claim that anyone else doesn't still experience the issue. )

[LordSkyKnight]

The issue is real, it's there, and it has chased people from the game. It happens a lot in pvp or when there are a lot of people on the screen. It's the crap engine and I doubt they will ever truely fix it. Dismiss it as you will. Most people dismiss other people's problems when it doesn't directly affect them.

[Jemfisto]

The issue is real, it's there, and it has chased people from the game. It happens a lot in pvp or when there are a lot of people on the screen. It's the crap engine and I doubt they will ever truely fix it. Dismiss it as you will. Most people dismiss other people's problems when it doesn't directly affect them.

 

I love the garbage people throw around the forums "its a crap engine". The abilities in this game have insanely detailed animations therefore it won't be as responsive as wow which has 1 animation for each race, obviously there are some issues with delay that they have been working on and even changing animations for but i love all the computer engineers around here who spout their knowledge.

Edited January 7, 2013 by Jemfisto

[Jemfisto]

double post , sorry please delete Edited January 7, 2013 by Jemfisto

[DawnAskham]

I love the garbage people throw around the forums "its a crap engine". The abilities in this game have insanely detailed animations therefore it won't be as responsive as wow which has 1 animation for each race, obviously there are some issues with delay that they have been working on and even changing animations for but i love all the computer engineers around here who spout their knowledge.

 

I think the animations are a part of it, though the core game design / engine plays a part.

 

Case in point, getting shot off your speeder.

 

Depending on how crowded the area is and how well the client and server are in sync, you might zip by a group of mobs and be nearly instantly spotted and dismounted or you might appear to be several seconds and a good many meters away before your client displays the agro warning and begins playing the dismount animation (and this difference can occur even with sub 50 ms latency as displayed by the game, so it isn't just network latency).

 

As for the dismount, the game then has to play the dismount animation, then the slowly picking yourself up and dusting yourself off animation, before you can do anything.

 

If you are used to playing a highly responsive game, having your client show you as being well away from a group BEFORE any notification of agro and a dismount occurs can be jarring.

 

Same with now having to wait for a series of animations to play before you can engage in combat.

 

In fact it was an issue with animations actually impacting character abilities that made some of the mirrored classes unable to achieve the same level of performance.

 

For what it is worth, I chalk most of this up to SWTOR being a bit different than other games I play. But it is noticeable and abilities can and do feel clunky or slow in SWTOR due both to the game engine as well as to the animations.

 

And for some people that is a deal breaker.

Edited January 7, 2013 by DawnAskham

[Eurynamous]

I too noticed the ability delay, happens less frequently on my warrior, seems to happen the most on rage builder attacks. My buddy who plays an op, literally stopped playing because it was severely noticable or him. Can't say I care he left, was a flake to begin with. Still, the issue does exist.

 

 

There is an option in settings that allows people to change the latency input value, forgive me if ifs named wrong, I have only glanced it. Perhaps adjusting that could assist with ability delay.

[Lostpenguins]

I love the garbage people throw around the forums "its a crap engine". The abilities in this game have insanely detailed animations therefore it won't be as responsive as wow which has 1 animation for each race, obviously there are some issues with delay that they have been working on and even changing animations for but i love all the computer engineers around here who spout their knowledge.

Um... this game has one animation for each advanced class. In WoW, Orc Mortal Strike looks different from Undead Mortal Strike. In this game, Cyborg Annihilate looks exactly like Sith Pureblood Annihilate. In fact, since all the models are exactly the same it saves on all of the emotes too.

 

So maybe you should think about that...

Edited January 7, 2013 by Lostpenguins

[Shai-Huluud]

I have no emperical evidence, just personal experience. If it was a major problem that effected just about everybody then it should be fairly easy for Bioware to find the issue. If it is a bug then they should have been able to fix it already. If it is a limit in the engine (certainly possible) then there really wouldn't be anyway to fix it without re-writing the engine.

 

So either it is an obscure bug that they can not find. Or it is an engine problem that they can not fix without a major overhaul. Either way it would be understandable why nothing has been done about it for a year.

 

If this problem was truely game breaking then they would have fixed it by now. Obviously many people (including myself) don't have this problem or they wouldn't still be playing the game.

 

One final thought. It is possible that I DO have this problem, but never noticed, but I think I would notice a delay that was half a second or longer. The OP is right that even a half second is a major delay in a game.

 

 

Something game breaking for me might not be game breaking for you so I'm not sure I agree with your suggestion that "They would have fixed it by now", particularly if your second point is true. Additionally the notion that if people had this problem then they wouldnt be playing the game doesn't stand up, not least because I and many others here in this thread are having the problem yet still playing the game.

 

In conclusion, i would call it "highly game damaging", it impacts on my overall experience negatively and whilst I continue to play it is an issue that erodes my interest significantly faster than it might otherwise.

[TheIrage]

I'm pretty sure your the only one with this problem. The combat is nice and smooth now. You might just be getting serious lag or something

 

Wrong. Just about everyone I know has this issue in one form or another. I have made posts about it, filled a customer ticket, but didn't get anywhere

 

As others said; this isn't game breaking. It is however one of the most annoying performance issues the game has. Personally, it can make warzones and OPs very frustrating and pointless.

 

We cannot put a number on subs lost due to this issue. All I can say is that if/when I stop playing SWTOR, this issue will be on the top of my list.

[Halacs]

This is back in full effect since 2.0. The missfire with GCD going off, extra 0.5-1s on top of casts all with 40ms and 60+fps.

[Rabin_Lorac]

Warzones and FPs are kiilling me with this delay. I have been playing since July and Ihave not had this problem before. I have not done any OPs yet. I am and Agent Concealment. What I have noticed is when I am heading toward a mob or a mob/player is heading toward me and I am cloaked. Pardon that I do not know skill names. I uses the poison shiv that keeps my cloaked and when in ranged I click the secret shiv attack. It is an instant cast. For almost 2 seconds nothing happens and either the mob/player is stationary because it was anyways or it still runs past me. Then the animation works and it is tripped and the mob comes back to its original location where I clicked the attack, I do not know if it is happening on non trippable because I have not looked into it. But if it was moving I moved after it which means it is now behind me and I am not in range with my shiv rotation. This is an Agent Concealments main attack and begining of their main rotation.

[Beyzend]

Can some on explain to me how this is not a symptom of network latency (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latency_(engineering))?

 

Let's say we have an instant knock back ability.The ideal would be that there is minimal delay in action and response. Let's just focus only on network lag (see: http://liveqos.com/blog/latency-vs-lag-whats-the-difference/). What you are experiencing is lag; it's the direct result of latency. You say NO! But think about it, when you instant cast something, what happens really? The game needs to propagate this event to everyone. The measure of how long it takes for this to propagate to everyone is latency. Basically your delay IS LATENCY related. There is no other way around this fact.

 

But you say no it's not latency because the animation is 0.5 seconds behind, the animation has nothing to do with networking. But that's not the issue here. The issue is as you generate your "instant" cast, this event needs to propagate, thus it's a latency issue.

 

Someone explain to me why it's not latency.

 

The reason why some people claim they don't experience "delay" is because they have low ping.

 

Note: most latency issues in MMO are cleverly hidden through ability cast times. Also in FPS where it's mostly movement based you can do stuff like dead reckoning to do movement predictions.

Edited April 15, 2013 by Beyzend

[mwglynn]

Same issue for me. This delay started as soon as early release started and has not went away. Gotta love that my instant cast abilities don't instant, and a lot of the time it will still trigger the GCD and normal CD timers even though I didn't actually use the ability because of the delay.

[veyl]

What happens in that original video is definitely back (most notably on Makeb). It's beyond irritating to sit at 24 ms and have ghost casts // lag casts // gcd's be eaten without anything going out.

 

To anyone that played in Vanilla Wow, these same symptoms used to happen there with casting as well. I wish I remember what they did to fix it because there is no legit reason why I can play perfectly fine in that game with casts being what they should be... and this game be so warped when it comes casts going when they should be.

[Beyzend]

Even if you have low ping you may still have latency issues due to the sever side problems. These sort of delays would not happen in a single player game (not talking about ****** computer lags).

 

Basically I disagree with op that these delays are not related to latency.

 

WoW most likely fixed these issues by optimizing their server hardware along with client optimizations. Wow has been out for years. Also I guess their packets are probably more efficient.

 

Network lagency + network procesing lag = your ability lag.

Edited April 15, 2013 by Beyzend

[Beyzend]

yes, I realize that there can be not network related bugs in the client that causes lag. I think those should be easy to fix. It's logical to me that once not network related lag is really fixed (regression bug proof) it will remain fixed. Game lag, or the general issue of human computer interface lag is actually a complicated issue. Edited April 15, 2013 by Beyzend

[Senatsu]

Can some on explain to me how this is not a symptom of network latency (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latency_(engineering))?

 

Let's say we have an instant knock back ability.The ideal would be that there is minimal delay in action and response. Let's just focus only on network lag (see: http://liveqos.com/blog/latency-vs-lag-whats-the-difference/). What you are experiencing is lag; it's the direct result of latency. You say NO! But think about it, when you instant cast something, what happens really? The game needs to propagate this event to everyone. The measure of how long it takes for this to propagate to everyone is latency. Basically your delay IS LATENCY related. There is no other way around this fact.

 

But you say no it's not latency because the animation is 0.5 seconds behind, the animation has nothing to do with networking. But that's not the issue here. The issue is as you generate your "instant" cast, this event needs to propagate, thus it's a latency issue.

 

Someone explain to me why it's not latency.

 

The reason why some people claim they don't experience "delay" is because they have low ping.

 

Note: most latency issues in MMO are cleverly hidden through ability cast times. Also in FPS where it's mostly movement based you can do stuff like dead reckoning to do movement predictions.

 

Sadly, you are very wrong.

 

BioWare has acknowledged the fact that due to the animations and how the server is built up in form of prioritization, there will be ability lag. This was non-existant during the server stress test right before launch, but it was very severe after launch and for several months after. They managed to make it much better after several patches, but it has never been as good as it was during the stress test beta. If you imagine how WoW's ability responsiveness is, that is how good it was during the stress test.

 

This issue is indeed back in 2.0, and I don't see BioWares 2 monkey debug team being able to squash this within the next 6 months, and even if they do fix it, they won't make it as smooth as in WoW - simply because the game's animations and how the game engine is built up, won't allow it. If EA allowed BioWare more manpower and more funding, I'm absolutely sure they would have been able to make it perfect, but the fact of the matter is; EA is getting it's 4th Worst Company in America award by the end of May, and that is not because they post nudes on the interwebz. Rushed content, withheld necessary funding, and lack of manpower is how EA dictates it's subsidiary companies. Thanks to this, the customers suffer for it as EA is highly skilled at hyping games up and giving the players just enough candy to waste their entire allowance on buying out half the candy store.

[Tekkoclarky]

I've came back to play my old character to level 55 and I am pretty shocked and disappointed to find out ability delay and missed gcd's are still in this game.

[Jetflair]

I've came back to play my old character to level 55 and I am pretty shocked and disappointed to find out ability delay and missed gcd's are still in this game.

 

Well I haven't done any PVP but as healer I noticed I've started missing my heals after patch. They sometimes don't start or start somewhat delayed.

 

My wild guess is that its about stress on servers. All the performance problems seem to relate how many concurrent users somewhere exists. Prolly when game was launched there was more simultanoues players on same zones and now as expansion comes it again creeps up.

[Nemmar]

I've came back to play my old character to level 55 and I am pretty shocked and disappointed to find out ability delay and missed gcd's are still in this game.

 

I'm pretty sure they werent on the last patch. With 2.0 and the increased traffic in the server made everyone lag and this issue occurs more often again. I do not know the specifics, but when the lag goes down, so does this issue. Despite what some people will try to tell you because they havent been around for the last few months to test it.

[Beyzend]

Sadly, you are very wrong.

 

BioWare has acknowledged the fact that due to the animations and how the server is built up in form of prioritization, there will be ability lag. This was non-existant during the server stress test right before launch, but it was very severe after launch and for several months after. They managed to make it much better after several patches, but it has never been as good as it was during the stress test beta. If you imagine how WoW's ability responsiveness is, that is how good it was during the stress test.

 

 

Exactly. That's what I meant. I meant latency as in ping time + server processing time. How the stress test reflects reality depends how it's designed and but it will likely miss things (sure you can design for randomness the fact is it won't reflect 100% reality; the only way to get reality is ... reality).

 

Think about what happens say when I cast Salvation--a two second cast ability--on one of my sage chars. On the client side I would immediately play the ability animation as soon as I get detect ability usage. There shouldn't be any lag here under normal circumstances. Now as I play this animation, the client immediately informs the server where this AOE ability was dropped. This will take some time before the server gets this message. The server looks at this, realize it's a top priority event, it immediately sends this event to other clients (where this AOE is dropped) in a top priority packet. This AOE event is propagated. The ability has a 2 second cast time, so under normal circumstances that is enough for this AOE event to propagate to other clients before the animation finishes. But imagine on a expansion release date. Now imagine that there are still optimization that hasen't been implemented yet on the servers. Now imagine maybe the server code really sucks. Now imagine maybe some client are running on 486s. NOW imagine League of Legends season final is going on... see what I mean now.

 

Not to mention my char who casted the Salvation spell. It's been 2 seconds. But for some reason she got the AOE spell packet from the server later than 2 seconds, after she has finished playing the animation. Now the #YOLO420SWAG dude sitting behind her is pissed. *** there is no responsiveness. *** this game.

Edited April 15, 2013 by Beyzend

[jibboo]

On my Sin:

 

The wind up and the....nope

 

The wind up and the....nope

 

The wind up and the maul! Finally!!

[Beyzend]

WoW's responsiveness: sure we would like that. The thing is that we have no idea what the architecture is like for SWTOR and WoW. One would there there should be some sort of convergence toward some ideal. But really we just won't know especially considering how WoW is designed to run on your grandma's 10 year old laptop. Give it some times for optimizations.

[veyl]

WoW's responsiveness: sure we would like that. The thing is that we have no idea what the architecture is like for SWTOR and WoW. One would there there should be some sort of convergence toward some ideal. But really we just won't know especially considering how WoW is designed to run on your grandma's 10 year old laptop. Give it some times for optimizations.

 

Wow fixed its ability responsiveness before Burning Crusade came out, well before the major optimization. I would love to see that happen with this game because I do enjoy to play this instead of Wow.

 

We need some Community Management Team love in this thread to hopefully find out some concrete answers. (Ones that do not include testing Latency//ability issues from the same building as the server.)