Do not roll "Need" for companion gear.

[Rekreant]

Cool. Glad you've found a new home here.

 

Thanks bro. Fortunately I have two full groups worth of friends so I never pug ^^.

[GraingerX]

I never did get the point of a need/greed system. All it does is cause arguments and stupidity over statistics on an item or vanity, or even someones reasoning for needing something.

 

The way some of you go on about this I'm surprised you ever have anyone to play with.

 

Thank GOD I run with the guild only. We don't have these squabbles. Unfortunately, would be nice to work with people outside the "circle" but I have enough stress in my life than worrying about gear.

 

For me, I don't gear up my companion for ****! Screw him/her! I will run from 1-50 with whatever crap drops I get in the world or hit the GTN...leave the actually group gear to group players.

 

To bad you can buy like say a full set of level gear for your companion. For instance, say you are level 11 and a vendor can sell you a full set of companion gear for x amount of credits...oh and let it scale up, so it can be custom gear and all you need to do is fit the gear with mods/enhancements/barrels and the like.

 

Now tell me that **** wouldn't be cool! We can already choose appearances, why not give us scalable gear that never has to be swapped out only mod replaced - and from the vendor only.

 

Oh and add my original post about character need trumping companion need.

[GraingerX]

Right idea, but not done that way... since Greed trumps Companion then there would be no reason to pick the companion option - people would just greed (or keep picking need).

 

A better version (in my opinion) would be one I suggested earlier in this thread, with loot rolls in the following order of priority:

 

1. Need: But cannot be chosen unless your character can actually equip/use the item, otherwise the option would be greyed out
   .
   
2. Companion Need
   .
   
3. Greed
   .
   
4. (Pass)

Greying out the option to pick Need if your character can't equip it would stamp out ninja'ing for the most part. I think so anyway.

 

Nice Kal, I like that...so at least a few of us can agree on something around this suggestion I am thinking.

[Mr_Crueak]

Because most people dont roll on gear for pets, therefore it falls on you to ask since chances are the people you are grouped with will not be ok with it!

 

You dont steal a guys car for the night without asking him if its ok just because you think "its not really stealing." You KNOW chances are they wont like it ... and the fact you stay quiet about it until to roll need shows how much of an egotistical selfish brat you are and no one should ever group with you.

 

but you are defining your companion as a pet, to some they are not a pet. you are trying to force your opinion onto someone else just like you are trying to force your playstyle onto someone else.

 

Your real world analagy makes no sense as there are stated rules saying that stealing that guys car is illegal and therfore jail time. There is no stated rule ingame that rolling need on a companion is the same as stealing a car, hence illegal. analagy = fail

 

In the end, you play how you feel you want to play, other play how they feel they want to play. in both side don't agree on something then you don't group. simple as that.

[Jonlinar]

You know... I thought from just reading arguments on here and the experience in other MMOs that companions were just basically pets and that you shouldn't roll need. However, I saw the loading text in game that companions take up a group slot. So 3 dudes, 1 of which has a companion, counts as 4 dudes. In that sense, the companion should be held to same scrutiny as any other PC considering DPS, ability to tank/buff/etc. So, in that light, rolling need for companions make sense. The player with a companion is doing as much as twice the work to play them at their potential and they count against the group number allotment. Don't be hatin on companions.

[Kalkaii]

Because most people dont roll on gear for pets, therefore it falls on you to ask since chances are the people you are grouped with will not be ok with it!

 

You dont steal a guys car for the night without asking him if its ok just because you think "its not really stealing." You KNOW chances are they wont like it ... and the fact you stay quiet about it until to roll need shows how much of an egotistical selfish brat you are and no one should ever group with you.

 

That's my whole thing, it would be different if the majority thought companions should get gear. It's not though I am going to make something up and say 7/10 disagree and think it's a version of ninja looting. You're the minority why should we have to ask you when you should be asking us.

[ferroz]

Because most people dont roll on gear for pets, therefore it falls on you to ask since chances are the people you are grouped with will not be ok with it!

And people are supposed to divine this how?

 

oh wait, like I said, it's something you should state when you start the group. If you have special rules beyond "hit need if you think you need it and hit greed if you would like it but don't think you need it and pass otherwise" and are going to get bent out of shape if someone doesn't follow your unspoken rule... then really, it's your responsibility to state that at the beginning of the group.

 

You dont steal a guys car for the night without asking him if its ok just because you think "its not really stealing."

Circular argument based on a false analogy.

[ferroz]

Right idea, but not done that way... since Greed trumps Companion then there would be no reason to pick the companion option - people would just greed (or keep picking need).

 

A better version (in my opinion) would be one I suggested earlier in this thread, with loot rolls in the following order of priority:

 

1. Need: But cannot be chosen unless your character can actually equip/use the item, otherwise the option would be greyed out
   .
   
2. Companion Need
   .
   
3. Greed
   .
   
4. (Pass)

Greying out the option to pick Need if your character can't equip it would stamp out ninja'ing for the most part. I think so anyway.

An even better system would be

• Roll - pick this if you want it
  
• Pass - pick this if you don't want it.
  

[Darkshadow]

Ok for me, it boils down to one thing, Does anyone that can use that piece in my group can use it. I wait until everyone has rolled, if everyone rolls greed, and my companion can use it, I let the group know that I am going to roll need for my companion. If there are others of my same class, I let them know that if they could use it, and no one else could then roll need. I state this all at the beginning of a run. gives people a chance to voice theyre opions. Also most gear that are in FP is BoP, and people know if that class has a companion that uses that Item stats. So if all are going to greed, then its vendor trash anyways, or someone is going to RE it anyways for theyre own profit. So why should I get to profit from it by not having to buy my Companion gear to help me get throw the next area? And if I am not using that companion other then to run missions then I dont gear them.

[GraingerX]

You know... I thought from just reading arguments on here and the experience in other MMOs that companions were just basically pets and that you shouldn't roll need. However, I saw the loading text in game that companions take up a group slot. So 3 dudes, 1 of which has a companion, counts as 4 dudes. In that sense, the companion should be held to same scrutiny as any other PC considering DPS, ability to tank/buff/etc. So, in that light, rolling need for companions make sense. The player with a companion is doing as much as twice the work to play them at their potential and they count against the group number allotment. Don't be hatin on companions.

 

Ok, going to head you off on the pass for this one.

 

I have ran with 2 other people and my companion, let's call him Quinn (FFS the most awesome healer EVER - Kolto bomb FTW! hehe).

 

So that makes 3 human players and 1 companion. All my companion is doing is healing...on auto. I don't have to click ****! It isn't any work. For anyone who clicks buttons for their companion I have to worry about because that is where the auto's come into play.

 

Now, even though Quinn is healing and keeping the group alive, I am not going to screw over someone for gear - WHICH I might add, has happened COUNTLESS number of times that I have given up gear for a players character not companion.

 

All companions are are just for someone you can roll with. It is part of the story that you engage in. It's not like in WoW, where you have to find said companion - you and him/her are part of story. With that being said, anyone who chooses their companion over a human player is sad. Besides, why not just ASK the group if it is ok that you roll need on the gear if it drops?

 

You want gear for your companion...take yo @ss to the GTN or get green drops through missions or rewards - don't screw over real players who can increase their stats with the drops that come from group missions.

 

Man, the more I see it...it just looks as if more and more people are just as selfish as usual.

Edited January 17, 2012 by GraingerX

[ferroz]

Thank GOD I run with the guild only.[ We don't have these squabbles.

Yeah, guilds never have loot drama.

 

Oh and add my original post about character need trumping companion need.

none of the arguments I've seen on that are any more valid than "you should pass on that because it's a bigger upgrade for me than it is you" ... which is behavior you can reasonably expect from a good friend, but not from a random pug

[OldBenSmokin]

Right idea, but not done that way... since Greed trumps Companion then there would be no reason to pick the companion option - people would just greed (or keep picking need).

 

A better version (in my opinion) would be one I suggested earlier in this thread, with loot rolls in the following order of priority:

 

1. Need: But cannot be chosen unless your character can actually equip/use the item, otherwise the option would be greyed out
   .
   
2. Companion Need
   .
   
3. Greed
   .
   
4. (Pass)

Greying out the option to pick Need if your character can't equip it would stamp out ninja'ing for the most part. I think so anyway.

 

While I agree of the order you placed this in, the problem is you'll still have the ****** kids who will choose "Need" over "Companion Need", even though it is, in fact, for their companion.

[Jonlinar]

Ok, going to head you off on the pass for this one.

 

I have ran with 2 other people and my companion, let's call him Quinn (FFS the most awesome healer EVER - Kolto bomb FTW! hehe).

 

So that makes 3 human players and 1 companion. All my companion is doing is healing...on auto. I don't have to click ****! It isn't any work. For anyone who clicks buttons for their companion I have to worry about because that is where the auto's come into play.

 

Now, even though Quinn is healing and keeping the group alive, I am not going to screw over someone for gear - WHICH I might add, has happened COUNTLESS number of times that I have given up gear for a players character not companion.

 

All companions are are just for someone you can roll with. It is part of the story that you engage in. It's not like in WoW, where you have to find said companion - you and him/her are part of story. With that being said, anyone who chooses their companion over a human player is sad. Besides, why not just ASK the group if it is ok that you roll need on the gear if it drops?

 

You want gear for your companion...take yo @ss to the GTN or get green drops through missions or rewards - don't screw over real players who can increase their stats with the drops that come from group missions.

 

Man, the more I see it...it just looks as if more and more people are just as selfish as usual.

 

Woops, you got me pard'ner! Am sho iz glad you headed me off, mmmmhm.

 

But really. Meh? The only thing missing from companions is the ability to tell them exactly where to stand on command. Other than that they are a full fledged group member. You're counting as half the group and without that companion you'd be dead. If another healer came along they could roll need, right? Thought so.

[Kalthorine]

While I agree of the order you placed this in, the problem is you'll still have the ****** kids who will choose "Need" over "Companion Need", even though it is, in fact, for their companion.

No doubt, but at least:

 

1. If someone rolls Need and is challenged why (if it is an odd choice of item for their class), and they answer "my companion needs it", then the rest of the group can tell straight away that they have a ninja on their hands!
   .
   
2. At least if the Need option is greyed out for items not useable by the character rolling, the number of times this would happen would be dramatically decreased, even though it is next to impossible to stamp out completely.

[Fredcat]

The thing is the OP's post is pure opinion, NOT fact. Even if the majority agrees with you, you can't force your opinion on others in a PUG. They may disagree with your assessment which is their right under the current system. They probably think the current system is fine.

 

The only thing you can do is only group with friends and guildies who are much less likely to do this. When my guild groups we are all on vent and just ask each other who needs, who might want for a companion. Problem solved. You may have occasional guild drama but it is sure a lot less likely then in a PUG.

 

Personally I have never felt entitled to a piece of gear. The other guys helped clear the area and if they feel they need something so be it. I'm not getting stressed about something trivial like loot. I'll just deck my companions out in PVP gear and not worry about winning rolls.

[SnoggyMack]

with up to five companions spanning all armor types and gear progressively getting better, you ARE talking about people NEEDing everything.

 

this thinking is so flawed and obscured by selfishness

 

That's not how that works out in real gameplay. And by suggesting it is, you're simply furthering this paranoid delusion that people are stealing your loot.

 

Most players run with one companion most of the time solo. Their class or playstyle doesn't mesh well with some of their other companions so they don't use them for combat.

 

There's dozens of threads all over the place with people discussing which companion they use and which they prefer. Everyone can read for themselves and see that people who roll for companion loot are for the most part rolling for the companion they use.

 

But this thread's elitism breaks down when placed within the context of actual gameplay.

 

What happens is ONE single loot roll becomes the anecdote that gets put forth as the nightmare. So someone loses an item to someone else who says they were going to give that to their companion. And these horror stories and nightmares get laced with hyperbole.

 

Suddenly it's a bunch of filth and jerks (tcalusine's words btw) who are rolling need on every drop. And feeding them to an army of companions.

 

You look through the posts though and find the people who DO discuss their actually rolling need for companion and you find that they go on a run, maybe roll on one thing the entire run. May or may not win it. And you talk to them about their companion playstyle and you find out that just like you, they're using one companion they prefer in combat. And the rest to run errands for crafting.

 

Nobody's rolling need on everything and blaming it on companions. And nobody's gearing up all 5 companions at your expense. The loot drama queens just want you to think that, when they're not spending time in this thread calling you a jerk.

[Darekar]

i agree with the OP.

 

personnally i wish people could only roll on gear they can use and that the loot box give those option:

 

Need : only player who can use (stat match spec)

need companion: remove vendor price and lock-in item mods

greed: do i really not to explain that?

pass: see greed

 

then the roll priority would be need > need for companion > greed

 

might be a pain to set up, but i believe it would be a good compromise.

Seriously, companion cannot be used in pvp and dungeon...why should people be able to take loot over a player for them. (as for world pvp...well yes they can be used but world pvp does not give reward like flashpoint,ops and warzone)

[profaneascension]

I've espoused my views on this issue a number of times already, but I just wanted to express a few more concerns I have regarding rolling Need for your companions.

 

Actually, that's not entirely correct. This issue really isn't about rolling for your companions, but rather rolling for an item that you believe you need, regardless of reason. After all, if you can roll for your companion, why can't I roll to disassemble the item, or vendor it for credits? Without establishing an hierarchy of need, every one in the group now has an equal right to roll Need on the item regardless of whether they actually need the item.

 

I want to make it absolutely clear that I am not accusing anyone of being greedy for wanting to perpetuate that mentality. That debate is pointless as no one so firmly entrenched in their position will ever admit (at least openly) to being greedy. What I do want to do is outline the consequences of using that set of loot rules over the more traditional one established in past MMOs.

 

When you open up loot rules to the point where anyone can roll on anything, chances are that the item will go toward some alternate purpose rather than upgrading the character that needs it most in the environment in which it was obtained---in this case, Flashpoints. What happens then is that the principal characters involved in a Flashpoint will receive no tangible upgrades, even though they may have a better solo experience due to an upgraded companion, or have a fatter wallet because of the mats or credits.

 

So if you're someone like me who just wants to upgrade my main character (and, in many cases, to help others gear up their mains), what is the point of running a Flashpoint? Chances are, someone will out-roll me for an item that only I can equip and is an upgrade for me, since no matter what the item is, I only have a 25% chance of winning. Without the incentive of getting geared up, I stop bothering with Flashpoints altogether, and those who think like me will also do the same, resulting in fewer people participating in FPs.

 

Also, let's use a gambling analogy. You can view the game's RNG as the house and your group members as fellow players. Using an hierarchy of need, the players are in fact rolling against the house (since it's up to the game to determine which type of item drops). Using the "roll Need if you need" system, the players all roll against each other. It's a matter of perception; I don't want to roll against other players. I want to beat the house.

 

So, take that as you will. Greed does not enter the equation. I just think one system makes more sense than the other.

Edited January 17, 2012 by profaneascension

[Kaphik]

A guy in my group today rolled Need for their companion on a piece, only after everyone else rolled Greed AND he asked. That guy was cool.

[SnoggyMack]

[*]At least if the Need option is greyed out for items not useable by the character rolling, the number of times this would happen would be dramatically decreased, even though it is next to impossible to stamp out completely.

 

This doesn't work well with hybrids, classes that can use all forms of armor vs. classes that can't (A heavy armor wearing jedi can roll need on every piece of armor that drops, while a light armor wearing sage can roll need on just one armor type), or with the way armor customization is pretty much intended to work (you now can't start running content at end-game, you remember that boring daily mission content everyone complains is just a grind? Well now in this system you can't "grind" to improve your character a tinsy bit with a modification upgrade).

 

All this restrictiveness does more harm for the game's overall and longterm playability than assuaging the feelings of a few loot drama queens who lost out on green items to a cloth wearing class.

[Warlocc]

I can't believe this argument is still going on.

 

Nine times out of ten, if you say "Hey, that item is nice, mind if I roll Need too, my companion would benefit from it.", people will say yes.

 

I know, I've done it, and I've also been one of the ones to say yes.

 

Further, we have /ignore. If someone really bothers you that much, just /ignore them. Worst case scenario, you have just the one argument, and you never group with them again.

 

By the late game, enough of the problem people will be ignored that they'll almost never be in groups with you, because at least one person in you group will have /ignored them.

[inquisitorshadow]

The thing is the OP's post is pure opinion, NOT fact. Even if the majority agrees with you, you can't force your opinion on others in a PUG. They may disagree with your assessment which is their right under the current system. They probably think the current system is fine.

 

Thing is, unless yer party leader, think twice before picking up companion gear. I can tell you, other players in the group will be merciless in their self righteous viewpoint of what they consider to be fair, and you won't even get a chance to explain your POV before you're booted from the group.

 

I learned this the hard way when I started playing this game as it was my first MMO. I didn't even know what the need vs greed system meant at one point, and at another it was an issue of me picking up for companion gear.

 

I asked someone in game about why he felt it wasnt acceptable to roll for companion gear, and his answer made sense. Quite simply, you could use that rationale (oh I need it for my pet) as an excuse to choose "need" for just about anything, particularly at higher levels when you have a variety of different pets that use different stuff.

 

The need/ greed system does a suprisingly good job at keeping things fair with the help of the community, and tolerating folks rolling need for pets would undermine the system.

 

As suggested, there should be a 3rd option of "need for companion" that has a greater chance than greed but a less chance than need.

Edited January 17, 2012 by inquisitorshadow

[CommanderFrog]

Companions are a part of the game.

You use them at all levels.

You have many of them.

They are as strong/stronger then you.

Rolling on gear for them is legit, not ninjaing, though I usually do wait to see if anyone else needs it before I need it for a companion, get used to companion rolls.

 

What I would like to see is a companion roll feature...split need into companion/your self. The priorities from most to least being - Yourself need, companion need, greed/disassemble (same priority) - pass

Edited January 17, 2012 by CommanderFrog

[SnoggyMack]

I learned this the hard way when I started playing this game as it was my first MMO. I didn't even know what the need vs greed system meant at one point, and at another it was an issue of me picking up for companion gear.

 

You've been terribly misled. If this is your first MMO, you should definitely do some more research into the slang and the history of MMORPGs.

 

Ninja Looting isn't even being used in the proper context in this discussion. Ninja Looting used to happen in MMORPGs where if a boss died ... the boss took 40 or more people to kill. The body was there. On it were 4 pieces of loot. For 40 people to decide how to divvy up.

 

And the body wouldn't despawn in the fast time that a regular trash mob would. It'd be up there for awhile. Because there would be a system for loot distribution about to take place.

 

Ninja looting though, involved people gaining access to that corpse, and thus the items, and swiping them away before any loot decision could be made.

 

This is in a time when there were no forced rolling buttons (I.E. that wonderful little "Need, Greed, Pass" option this game provides) and master looter controls didn't even exist.

 

Real ninja looting was when you wasted a couple hours of your Friday night killing Lord Nagafen only to watch some actual NINJA LOOTER swoop in, while you're still being rezzed, and take a Cloak of Flames and then log out.

 

Poof.

 

Gone.

 

No roll.

 

No "need for companion."

 

Whoever you talked to in THIS game has been misleading you about ninja looting and loot ettiquette and not given you enough of an MMO backstory to really do you any justice.

 

Use the internet. Get acquainted with other MMOs and get up on their slang. Knowing is half the battle and all that. And you're lack of experience is only going to prevent you from making the most informed decision you can about ettiquette.

[Warlocc]

You've been terribly misled. If this is your first MMO, you should definitely do some more research into the slang and the history of MMORPGs.

 

Ninja Looting isn't even being used in the proper context in this discussion. Ninja Looting used to happen in MMORPGs where if a boss died ... the boss took 40 or more people to kill. The body was there. On it were 4 pieces of loot. For 40 people to decide how to divvy up.

 

And the body wouldn't despawn in the fast time that a regular trash mob would. It'd be up there for awhile. Because there would be a system for loot distribution about to take place.

 

Ninja looting though, involved people gaining access to that corpse, and thus the items, and swiping them away before any loot decision could be made.

 

This is in a time when there were no forced rolling buttons (I.E. that wonderful little "Need, Greed, Pass" option this game provides) and master looter controls didn't even exist.

 

Real ninja looting was when you wasted a couple hours of your Friday night killing Lord Nagafen only to watch some actual NINJA LOOTER swoop in, while you're still being rezzed, and take a Cloak of Flames and then log out.

 

Poof.

 

Gone.

 

No roll.

 

No "need for companion."

 

Whoever you talked to in THIS game has been misleading you about ninja looting and loot ettiquette and not given you enough of an MMO backstory to really do you any justice.

 

Use the internet. Get acquainted with other MMOs and get up on their slang. Knowing is half the battle and all that. And you're lack of experience is only going to prevent you from making the most informed decision you can about ettiquette.

 

This is correct. Technically, we'd want to be using the term "Ninja Rolling", I would think. Or, you could simply say the terminology has evolved with the loot systems.