The Secret to Guardian Tanking

[xCOLBYJACKx]

OH GOD FINALLY I CAN POST.

 

Anyway, awesome guide. I think I'll do my Guardian this way, though I hope this is current to some people's concerns. Thanks!

[Slowpoison]

Great Guide Sir.....May I ask at what level does one get Challenging Call and Force Push?

[Imacomputa]

Thanks seraphimm, it definately made me think about respecing. As I dove into guardian's abilities and how everything you mention works out on the battlefield i started to respec you build a little, so it would suit my play-style a little more.

 

Here it is:

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#500cMGMkZhRrMrhzdMM.1

 

now for the explanation part.

 

So to start off, I switched command which sounds pretty good but in reality, you can either keep agro if you party attacks the same monster or tab to other enemy and use taunt. Basic strategy is to stun elite, finish off all weak mobs and then attack the elite one - so once again, one challenging shout should be enough for one battle. Also, I extracted remaining point from shield specialization as I don't believe 2% would give any noticable benefit. As I base my build on your theory (which I think is pretty amazing) I tried to enhance my sweep as much as possible (to make it just as threat generating ability as challenging call). So I put some points into Pacification (10% boost to sweep dmg, oh yes). Mommentum - this is controvertial, since I can't test this build at this time, because I'm still level 30 and at work :-P but so far, mommentum gave me a huge advantage in the battle. Leap>sweep>storm and at this point, you'd run out of focus - which is a huge dps-flow-block causing you to 1. lose riposte+overhead slash combo 2. lose blade barricade. dust storm - worst skill for a tank imo. you write about it as it's pretty nice boost, which i think is a lie and here's why - you dive in with leap, use force sweep and you're standing there with melee mobs missing you and now you're not able to use riposte which grants you 6% melee+ranged def while ranged mobs hit you = bad idea. as a guardian tank, you want to get hit, just as often and as lightly as possible because with each hit you gain focus and riposte. now accuracy - it's so little boost it's almost not noticable - and you loose 2 points which i rather put into gathering strenght. now i know you've said it's a bad idea to put points in here and i think you're wrong. i myself get impaired a lot while going thru nar shadaa or tatooine and few extra and STACKING percent of damage to every focus costing ability (sweep, blade storm, overhead slash - am i seeing it right? those are ONLY abilities we really use!). okey so to sum it up - free 10% damage per 1 stack so up to 50% more damage if you like to use sundering a lot before applying damage OR 2 percent more accuracy. burning purpose - here are our missing 2 points! ah yes, why oh why would i put two points in this? well, i like things burning and all BUT most of all, it's an additional damage (mostly appriciatable * sorry if spelled wrong * in fights with elites). even better, think about blade storm now, you get 133 damage over 6 seconds, now sum it up with 200 damage when using overhead and you get 333 damage over 6 seconds. so it's over 50 damage per second absolutely free-of-focus.. you can even switch to other target if your enemy is nearly dead.

 

so that's that and see you in game ^^

 

oh! btw. i totaly agree with you in terms of guardian strike. it's much less sunder and damage if you count dps.

 

EDIT: switched blade barricade with commanding awe since it grants permament 4% instead of 4% after the usage of riposte and as i understand it, commanding awe also reduces DOT. you can now choose to either boots barricade and get 4% more damage reduction or boots your sweep with pacification.

 

Are you able to tank flashpoints effectively in this spec? I am interested in trying it, as I agree with some of your points, I'm just worried that survivability is lost a little when we don't get any of the later-tier skills in defense. My problem is keeping aggro on multiple targets. I can hold aggro on one mob just fine, its when my healer is getting aggro and I have to run all over the place to gain threat again. Also, I've been having survivability issues with seraphimm's spec. Don't know if it's because my healing companion is completely incompetent or if it's the spec, but I feel like I barely do any damage and can barely stay alive on some elite fights.

[russmanOR]

Been trying this spec out questing on Ilum and such, no flashpoints yet cause my server sucks and almost no one is 50 yet to do stuff with. Have trouble getting enough focus to actually keep up with the shorter cooldowns on this stuff without the improved soresu generation and courage cutting things down. Damage is definitely higher, but I'm actually worse at killing elites now without the various stuns full Defense gives you(instant stasis, hilt strike).

 

I like the idea, and I agree that the top of defense is weak and guardian strike in particular is bad, but being forced to leap around is inconvenient, if not fun. I think ill be going back to full defense...or just rolling a Shadow as Guardian in general is just frustrating me.

[Kyle_Lin]

I am a beginner so this might seem a stupid question but:

 

I noticed that in your PvP build some abilities work in soresu form and some work in shien form.

 

Does that mean if you go that way you constantly have to switch between forms based on the situation?

Edited December 30, 2011 by Kyle_Lin

[Lord_Paladin]

I dont know if you tested blade barrier on a level 50 but is most definately not 500 dmg, if you dont have blade barrier, you shouldnt be main tank. In hard mode esseles a head shot from the madolorian boss can take me to 25% but with blade barrier up it takes me to 75% and i have 18k hp.

 

also, i find a mostly straight up defnese build works much better in hard mode fp's and ops than these hybrids.

 

I've been reading that Blade Barrier could be based off of a healing stat. So that could possibly put power above Strength on the list, since it would boost this as well.

 

Anyone else find this?

[Carousel_t]

sorry for this post as it's going to be a short one.

 

yes i can tank using vigilance tree, now i'm full vigilance as im trying to get 4% end & 4% def boost from vigilance, then im going def tree. i tank just fine and i do loads of damage (people are actualy mistaking me for a sentinel as i can hit 800 damage with single blow) plus i have now over 6600hp on level 33 (mixed def/dps gear). on top of that i can switch from soresu to shii-cho form freerly with huge benefits. i do miss defense build as it made more sense to me..you know, free riposte and defense boost from riposte.. it's just stupid how little guardian benefits from defense tree..

[Liania]

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#500fMGcubrozMZhRr0M.1

 

Spec I plan to use.

 

Its based around keeping survibility as high as possible (lets face it, we are tanks), while also sticking in as much aoe threat as possible + high usage of Blade Storm.

 

Edit: Reason for not going up in vigilance and staying in defense is that all the jumping around with guardian / force leaps in the op, seems to ehm, unefficient to me.

 

In defense tree you get a great self shield from blade storm (which gets reduced cost from courage) and you get no channel on force stasis + longer enure + a bunch of aoe threat talents + hilt strike.

 

Wasting 8 points to get the leap thing in vigilance just isent worth it.

Edited December 31, 2011 by Liania

[FalcoLombardi]

I've changed my plan recently. I'm doing practically full Defense tree, only 50% chance for 1 focus from Sundering Strike, no Hilt Strike focus reduction, no Resolute cool down reduction. 2 points in Focus to reduce Stasis and Master Strike cool down, 4 points in Vigilance for more Force Sweep damage and 50% chance for Sundering Strike to put an extra stack of Sunder Armor. With that and Guardian Slash I can reduce a foes armor by 20% in no time

[Pwnzie]

I wouldn't go tanking FP in hybrid spec, ever. The talents higher in the tree are not much but still very needed.

[pure_laced]

I am going with this:

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#500fMGcubrkzRZhGM.1

 

Thus far it seems to be doing fine, with no issues whatsoever, and actually performs better with larger packs of mobs I have noticed. I also think they will improve the Jedi Guardian soon defensively, and it will be more beneficial to go this route in the near future.

[Jediwran]

I am going with this:

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#500fMGcubrkzRZhGM.1

 

Thus far it seems to be doing fine, with no issues whatsoever, and actually performs better with larger packs of mobs I have noticed. I also think they will improve the Jedi Guardian soon defensively, and it will be more beneficial to go this route in the near future.

 

I was thinking of going that route too, in hopes that soon they will fix things.

[angrydurf]

So assuming that if Blade Barrier is not working as intended and is instead supposed to be equivalent to the vanguard/shadow versions of the ability it seems like it's worth going further up defensive tree.

 

How does Guardian stack up to overhead now? seems like the CDs are the same now and Guardian will be doing more damage if there is a full stack of sunders (which is virtually guaranteed if we're using Sundering on CD) and only slightly lower damage with 3 sunders if popped early enough in the fight that there isn't a full stack. Seems to me guardian (appropriately since its a 31pt skill) is better.

 

Looks to me like the high end of guardian may have been buffed 4% to elemental and internal (that is not stopped by armor) is pretty solid even if inure is of minimal use and cyclonic sweeps seems worth it just for the increased focus gen from soresu.

 

Now for leveling it may still be better to go hybrid as your solo DPS will be a bit better with the hybrid but for tanking group content seems like the top end of the defense tree is pretty solid now.

[seraphimm]

So I've been doing some pretty serious Blade Barrier testing. I also have been doing lots of research on the mechanics behind this particular mechanic.

 

This is pulled from SITHWARRIOR.com and I am not the source behind these numbers:

 

Elobi Wrote:

I've been trying to find a way to figure the Static barrier/blade barrier for quite some time now.

 

So in the course of figuring out the mechanics behind the barrier I datamined this:

 

 

 

Its from String: Abl/Jedi_Knight/skill/defense/Blade_Barrier/0/2/

 

However, im not that experienced with dataminind and how to navigate the the names, types and value.

 

But can anyone see a connection of some sort ?

 

StandardHealthPercentMin and StandardHealthPercentMax are referring to the values in another table called cbtStandardHealingInfo. (If this was a damage ability, they would be referring to values in cbtStandardDamageInfo).

 

In that table, you will find a several sub-tables of numbers, for various "toughnesses" (weak, normal, strong, etc). If you scroll down about halfway through that table, you'll find a sub-table with the heading "cbtToughness_player".

 

Then there is a list of numbers from 1-50, which is the level at which you last trained a rank of the ability (for trained abilities) or the rank at which the ability becomes available (for skill tree abilities). Since Blade Barrier is the latter, and becomes available at Level 30, the corresponding number is 3670.

 

So the ability absorbs 367 damage.

 

Like a few abilities, Static Barrier is listed under a different (earlier?) name in the data files, and is called "Backlash". For Backlash, you will see StandardHealthPercentMin and StandardHealthPercentMax are 0.164, and the HealingPowerCoefficient is 3.27. Since the last rank of Static Barrier is trainable at Level 50, the corresponding number from the cbtStandardHealing table is 7085.

 

That means StaticBarrier absorbs 0.164*7085 = 1161.94 + 3.27*ForceHealingBonus (at Level 50).

 

So these numbers were really confusing me, so I set up some very controlled tests.

 

These results are my own experience and I have not reached 50 yet. These number will vary depending on your specifics (more on that later).

 

TEST:

The test I set up was an easy (and easily repeatable) duel between my Guardian and a Sage friend of mine. I did this for the simple reason that I wanted him to throw rocks at me.

 

So first test.. I have him throw rocks at me until I am hit by 3 in a row without a shielding proc (was easy enough). All three hits did between ~600 to ~750 damage each.

 

Now I simply hit him with a Blade Storm, allowing Blade Barrier to proc. He then immediately hit me with another Telekinetic attack for a Whopping 30 damage.

 

So this very simply and hardly scientific test told me that my Blade Barrier stopped about 700 damage.

 

However according to the math: StaticBarrier absorbs 0.164*7085 = 1161.94 + 3.27*ForceHealingBonus

 

I should be stopping much more than the ~700, so that got me thinking...

 

The answer was fairly easy. Checking my defensive stats I found my Armor was reducing incoming damage by just over 37%

 

Now I'm not 50 but I do have alot of +power additions currently (I was leveling not tanking) so That had some influence over the *FORCEHEALINGBONUS* part of the equation.

 

But the simple and un-scientific part of the math showed that the reason I had found Blade Barrier so lack luster in Beta was because of the order in which the damage was applied.

 

That is, ~40% (depending on your armor) of the damage that Blade Barrier absorbs you would not be taking anyway. The damage reduction from your armor score would mitigate that percentage of the total.

 

This was a bit suprising, and explains why I didn't much care for it during testing. While Blade Barrier does absorb far more damage that I thought at first, it isn't damage that would ever be realized.

 

 

Also now that I know the mechanice behind the skill, I also know how to amplify the skill. That's both good news and bad news.

 

The good news is you can boost the amount that Blade Barrier absorbs by stacking large amounts of +power and willpower.

 

The bad news is that +Power is what I would consider a tier 5 Augmentation (+Defense>+Accuracy (to 100%)>+Shield>+Absorbtion>+Power). Willpower is not even a stat I would ever even bother with since it would remove a piece of +Strength equipment at a minimum.

 

I will be adding this to the front page.

 

I don't think it will change anyone's mind. People either think that the Hybrid build improves performance or hinders defense.

 

The fact that depending on your armor levels close to 50% (end game) of the benefit to a blade barrier proc would be what I like to call over healing makes me dislike the skill even more than I did before.

 

While others would still see that even at 50% it's damage you aren't actually taking.

 

It is just my thoughts, but IMHO - Unremitting+Effluence > Blade Barrier

 

Thanks for everyone's continued thoughts

Edited January 1, 2012 by seraphimm

[Oobly]

Thanks Seraphimm for a great guide with good explanations of the choices made! I have a low level JK guardian and can still go either way with the build, so I'll be checking in here regularly to see what the latest info is.

 

That said, I think we should all keep an eye on the patch notes and be prepared to re-spec later if they adjust the defense tree talents to be better for tanking.

 

Here is my prospective build: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#500fMG0uMZhGrMMhzzM.1

 

I figured the extra 33% chance of blade storm being free (making it 99%) was better than the 2% shield chance. As I say, my JK is still low lvl so I haven't tested it, so please correct me if I am wrong.

 

Finally, a question about unremitting. Does the 20% damage reduction only last for 4 seconds or does that only apply to the interrupt and control immunity? If it is so short, maybe the 10 second blade barrier is easier to fit in a rotation?

Edited January 2, 2012 by Oobly

[Creovex]

Nice Guide.

[Helixed]

This is awesome. Thanks alot for doing OUR homework, m8!

 

I'm respeccing tank today, and i'm trying out your build/guide.

 

Thumbs up!!

[Orabus]

This is it!! The guide you’ve been looking for. Right here!

 

EVERYTHING YOU NEED TO KNOW ABOUT JEDI GUARDIAN TANKS!!

This is my opinion (with the help and support of many who wish to be the best Guardian Tank possible). Any recommendations herein represent my thoughts and experiments while Beta testing. This information is valid as of the last build used during the last test, and I do not promise similar results in any future builds.

 

FYI on post page 16 there is a follow-on to this guide: To add a bit of Q & A

 

 

Q) But, Seraphimm, you ask, what makes you an expert in either the Jedi Guardian or in Tanking in General?

We’ll I’m glad you asked, ambiguous forum stranger. Let me give you some of my background. You may recognize a few tanks in the bunch. Shadow Knight in EQ, Guardian in EQ2, Ninja in FFXI, Jedi in SWG, Invulnerability tank in City of Heroes, Warrior in GW2 (briefly), Ice Tank in DCUO, Protection Pally and Feral Druid in WOW, Warrior in DAoC, Templar in Aion, Bear Shaman in Conan, AND I Fly Blaster Boats in Eve (though this might give me negative points)!! Oh and level 50 Jedi Guardian during Beta! Well there you are, decide for yourself.

 

Q2) Why on earth, Mr. Seraphimm, would I want to play a Jedi?

Well, aren’t we all questions today. As a Jedi, you get to carry a lightsaber (I mean how cool is that?), you get your own astro droid, AND you get a mouthy little vixen with a saucy eyes that follows you around and calls you master from time to time. Winning.

 

Q2a) But Mr. Seraphimm, I hate astro droids, and I get the other two things as Stih.

Yes, Mr. Negative questions, but as a Jedi you don’t have to worry about your higher-ups Force-Choking you because you missed a spot on that toilet you cleaned that morning…. ENOUGH with the questions.

 

This part right here, was enough to convince me that you are my hero

[Bakarn]

You absolutely do not need to spec as a tank below level 50. Don't bother. Spec Vigilance. It even makes FPs easier because you can always switch to Shien to get rid of weaker mobs. Edited January 3, 2012 by Bakarn

[Darklander]

Great work on that guide!

Now, after several days of searching for the right skills for my unskilled Lvl. 21 Guardian, I've IMHO found the best way to level up.

Thanks a lot.

 

Greeting from Germany

Darklander

[SceneGG]

I am going with this:

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#500fMGcubrkzRZhGM.1

 

Thus far it seems to be doing fine, with no issues whatsoever, and actually performs better with larger packs of mobs I have noticed. I also think they will improve the Jedi Guardian soon defensively, and it will be more beneficial to go this route in the near future.

 

I use this setup too, and find it does quite well in both pve and pvp

[adre_nalin]

Awesome work. I drew the same conclusions, working through the skills. Different from your build, i wanted to go with shien form, to get some versatility into gameplay. I also identified riposte and force sweep/leap as bread and butter skills, which i didn't expected. So this is what i came up with:

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#500fMG0uMZIMMRMuzzM.1

 

Your build seems quite similar und you confirmed my suggestions. Again thanks for your thoughts.

 

Greetings from Deutschland.

Synclayr, Jedi Hüter

[Civillien]

Thanks for this. This puts a lot into perspective!

[Bluetickone]

I started a gaurdian, but the rotations quickly become stupidly, insanely, mind-wrackingly complex. Any class that has a "32-second" rotation is badly broken and needs to be reconsidered.....bad, terrible, horrible no good design.

[Theronlas]

I started a gaurdian, but the rotations quickly become stupidly, insanely, mind-wrackingly complex. Any class that has a "32-second" rotation is badly broken and needs to be reconsidered.....bad, terrible, horrible no good design.

 

*sigh* This is not a rotation class, you need to actually RESPOND to what is happening, what is on CD, how much focus you have etc.