The Expertise stat has to go...

[TheRiddick]

Then expertise is not the issue, you are advocating a gear neutral PvP system where once you enter the WZ, it does not matter what gear you have on, everyone will be the same. No thanks. I like to be rewarded for my efforts and improve my character in the process. I am sure there are some, like yourself, who like this type of system, but I do not. If this was so good, and this was the end all be all of PvP for the masses, then one might think it was used by the most popular and successful MMO in North America. Oh wait, it wasn't.

 

It was used by DCUO that had to server merge and go to free to play within a year of being released. If this gear neutral system you speak of was so great, why is DCUO not more popular? According to you, they have the only PvP system worth anything, skill only, no tangible rewards. Sounds fun.

 

So to sum it up, there is a gear neutral PvP system out there that is free to play, why in the world are you coming here and asking Bioware to radically change their PvP system to be the same of a failed MMO. Go play that one if that is what you really want, it will save you $15 a month as well.

 

I never said anything about DCUO, The MMO that kept me for 6 years was Guildwars, Some of the Best PvP I have ever played, it was all about skill and strategy, and teamplay, no one had the advantage, and because of that the matches were fun. I grinded my gear in this game all the time hating bioware for it, it wasn't fun at all, and do i feel more progressed no, i feel like I have a distinct advantage and find very few good matches. many times a good match that would have been epic withour gear gaps, was meh for me because of it. there is no skill involved in this game, at all.

[LanceUpercutt]

But how will that in any way fix the problem with terribads having the best gear?

 

the only way to stop that is with rated wz's/arena's giving gear based on your rating

Edited January 24, 2012 by LanceUpercutt

[shaidarlol]

thing is they have to keep pvp gear and pve gear relatively close, and if you scale back pve gear how are they going to keep making more difficult content?

 

the whole idea of expertise is to make the fights between players last longer, being blown up within a few seconds is hardly metric for skill. notice how everyone was complaining about operatives? why? because they killed you before you can even fight back. expertise prolongs the fight and as fights prolong, more decisions are needed to determine the outcome. that is the definition of skill. able to make the correct decisions. if you limit the amount of time needed to make such decisions. you are essentially killing skill and making the game nothing more than who i can kill the fastest.

[Armethious]

how many times have I said that removal is not my goal, but rather a massive scaling back, something like 50% less effective

 

if you make PVP gear less game breaking you are free to make winning PVP more rewarding and losing more punishing.

 

Then you do not understand how ineffective expertise already is as implemented. If I HAD to choose between a full set of Champ gear and a full set of Columi gear, I would take the full set of Columi gear everyday and twice on Sunday. It is that much better.

 

Now best case scenario is about 70% to 80% Columi gear and the rest in Champion. There are a few champion pieces that are better than the Columi equivalent, but not many. Because diminishing returns kicks in later on, a few pieces is all you need to get a nice efficient boost to your damage. Anything above 3% to 5% expertise is way to costly in terms of lost endurance and primary stats.

 

If they scaled it back from where it is now, then no hardcore PvPer would wear ANY PvP gear and ALL the best "PvP" gear would come from raiding.

[Armethious]

I never said anything about DCUO, The MMO that kept me for 6 years was Guildwars, Some of the Best PvP I have ever played, it was all about skill and strategy, and teamplay, no one had the advantage, and because of that the matches were fun. I grinded my gear in this game all the time hating bioware for it, it wasn't fun at all, and do i feel more progressed no, i feel like I have a distinct advantage and find very few good matches. many times a good match that would have been epic withour gear gaps, was meh for me because of it. there is no skill involved in this game, at all.

 

Then go back to guild wars and leave this game alone.

[Junebugs]

the goose is already cooked for the first batch of people to hit 50 and get rewarded just for existing in a PVP game, but it doesn't mean that it shouldn't change in the future for newer players

 

honestly, if you want retroactive change, you aren't going to get it

 

but a new system that rewards winners based on skill by de-emphasizing gear is better and more entertaining for the future of the game

 

And while we are on the subject.. what is going to be the purpose of the rated WZs? I mean what are they possibly going to reward? cause if its going to be ajoke like the valor system im prob done with this

[Sanwa]

124 vs 88 ... clearly the majority, you are just splitting hairs at this point.

 

and i don't know what guarding pvp gear against pve gear even means.

pve has their own progression

pvp has their own progression

 

yes a fresh 50 is going to suck vs pvp geared 50 just like a fresh 50 is going to suck in raids vs a pve geared 50 in raids. what is the difference?

 

the only difference would be what type of content a player wants to see. some prefer only pve, some only want pvp, while others want to do both.

 

if you remove expertise it will basically force all the pvpers to pve for gear to compete

like wise if you make gear all the same the pvers will complain about the pvpers that got the same gear as pvers and come in raids when they haven't even done any raid progression.

 

it's 2 systems everyone should stop trying to splice it into 1.

in either systems a fresh 50 will still get slaughtered vs a pve/pvp geared person nothing changes but a whole new complaint system.

OMG common sense in the forum. Sir you need to leave. common sense is not allowed here.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Sanwa

[StealthStalker]

if you remove expertise it will basically force all the pvpers to pve for gear to compete

like wise if you make gear all the same the pvers will complain about the pvpers that got the same gear as pvers and come in raids when they haven't even done any raid progression.

 

it's 2 systems everyone should stop trying to splice it into 1.

in either systems a fresh 50 will still get slaughtered vs a pve/pvp geared person nothing changes but a whole new complaint system.

 

Take a look at the Ward system, a few posts above yours.

Edited January 24, 2012 by StealthStalker

[LanceUpercutt]

And while we are on the subject.. what is going to be the purpose of the rated WZs? I mean what are they possibly going to reward? cause if its going to be ajoke like the valor system im prob done with this

 

 

the point? probably so equally skilled players can play eachother more often, and they could reward the best with better gear, after all YOU dont want bad players to have the best gear

[Junebugs]

the point? probably so equally skilled players can play eachother more often, and they could reward the best with better gear, after all YOU dont want bad players to have the best gear

 

And your point? You answered nothing

 

Better gear? hmm Battlemaster? The gear all the baddies have already?

[LanceUpercutt]

And your point? You answered nothing

 

Better gear? hmm Battlemaster? The gear all the baddies have already?

 

what did i not answer? as for what to reward im sure they could create a new tier

[shaidarlol]

Take a look at the Ward system, a few posts above yours.

 

while i've never played WHO, from the reading, the ward system seems nothing more than a gated expertise system. seems you have to start with 0 wards and do something in some pvp to obtain the ward so you can get the next tier ward. sounds similar to centurion -> champ -> battlemaster. altho swtor is definitely more rng but the simple fact remains a fresh toon will get slaughtered vs a geared toon

[Kelticfury]

People will no longer play PvE encounters if both gears are equal.

PvP gear can be soloed. PvE gear requires a group.

If they are equal, most will just pvp since it is easier and can be soloed.

No one will see the PvE zones and quests.

 

There are many more things that can go wrong with this but I really don't want to educate people. Go research it and stuff. But taking the pvp stat will never happen. WILL NEVER HAPPEN. No matter how hard you people cry.

 

The one hole in this theory, and its a very large hole, is that there is a metric **** ton of people who don't pvp at all.

 

Who said its up to you how people play the game anyway? If someone wants to lvl 10-50 only doing pvp or if they want to play 1-50 strictly in story lines it has no effect on you whatsoever.

 

You are not the gameplay police. what you think or want has nothing at all to do with how anyone plays the game.

[BDutch]

124 vs 88 ... clearly the majority, you are just splitting hairs at this point.

 

and i don't know what guarding pvp gear against pve gear even means.

pve has their own progression

pvp has their own progression

 

yes a fresh 50 is going to suck vs pvp geared 50 just like a fresh 50 is going to suck in raids vs a pve geared 50 in raids. what is the difference?

 

the only difference would be what type of content a player wants to see. some prefer only pve, some only want pvp, while others want to do both.

 

if you remove expertise it will basically force all the pvpers to pve for gear to compete

like wise if you make gear all the same the pvers will complain about the pvpers that got the same gear as pvers and come in raids when they haven't even done any raid progression.

 

it's 2 systems everyone should stop trying to splice it into 1.

in either systems a fresh 50 will still get slaughtered vs a pve/pvp geared person nothing changes but a whole new complaint system.

 

I agree with your prediction of what would happen if we simply removed expertise. The other stuff is irrelevant because we're clearly not on the same page; I was quoting someone else who quoted me.

[StealthStalker]

while i've never played WHO, from the reading, the ward system seems nothing more than a gated expertise system. seems you have to start with 0 wards and do something in some pvp to obtain the ward so you can get the next tier ward. sounds similar to centurion -> champ -> battlemaster. altho swtor is definitely more rng but the simple fact remains a fresh toon will get slaughtered vs a geared toon

 

It's for PvE...

 

I also stated at the bottom that you could remove the ability to obtain Wards via RvR (PvP).

 

The only thing higher tier gear gives is slightly higher stats, and possibly varying Set bonuses.

 

With the way they've stated they want gear to work, one could then remove the set bonuses they've obtained from gear and place it on other gear. In the future that is.

 

Please read that post in its entirety.

Edited January 24, 2012 by StealthStalker

[RJChief]

the goose is already cooked for the first batch of people to hit 50 and get rewarded just for existing in a PVP game, but it doesn't mean that it shouldn't change in the future for newer players

 

honestly, if you want retroactive change, you aren't going to get it

 

but a new system that rewards winners based on skill by de-emphasizing gear is better and more entertaining for the future of the game

 

I read a few of your posts but I don't fully understand you. From what I gather you are suggesting the following:

a) Expertise gear is overpowered because of the damage boost + damage reduction?

b) And/or raid gear is underpowered because it only boosts damage and NOT damage reduction?

c) That Expertise gear should either be harder to get or not as effective?

 

Feel free to correct these premises.

 

If you believe premise A then how do you feel about the Overcharge Consumable (boosts Expertise by 15%) or the In-Game Expertise box?

If you believe premise B then what are dedicated PVP'ers supposed to do to defend themselves against raiders? I haven't done the math but I believe that the PVE gear does significant damage even with respect to its PVP counterpart.

If you believe in premise C then what would happen to those who leveled their Valor with their player level? Those who spent many hours PvP'ing in <50 bracket? (and coincidentally reread my counter to premise A).

 

I am a PvPer in a PvP guild. Sure we run some raids but not nearly enough to gear up. Just something as a change of pace, and sometimes we don't quite finnish (because our pvp gear holds us back). I want to PvP, not spend 5 hours in a row trying to grind through a hardmode operation.

 

WHAT IF:

We keep the PVP gear on PVP servers and remove it from PvE servers?

Nerf the Expertise bonus in WZ but allow it/increase it in Open PVP?

Increase the duration of Overcharge Consumable for players with less than 2% expertise?

Edited January 24, 2012 by RJChief

[Kyrinic]

The people whining to remove expertise will be gone within the next week or so after they get a bunch of champion pieces.

[Junebugs]

what did i not answer? as for what to reward im sure they could create a new tier

 

Hmm and how will we obtain that? The skill of RNG game, ugh i cant help but to get off topic im sorry, just so many flaws in this design

[StealthStalker]

The people whining to remove expertise will be gone within the next week or so after they get a bunch of champion pieces.

 

I played WAR for two years, and DAOC many years prior to that. There was no PvP stat. WAR didn't even have Realm Rank abilities until very late (read: just before I left)

 

I played to kill people. Advance my RR just for shiny new titles, and overall just enjoy myself.

Edited January 24, 2012 by StealthStalker

[RJChief]

The people whining to remove expertise will be gone within the next week or so after they get a bunch of champion pieces.

 

I agree... With all respect the smart person could hold 1 champ bag before 50, stack 1000/1000 comms for 5 bags, complete 2 dailies for 2 bags and 2 weeklies for 3 bags each (all in 24 hours of turning 50) --> Total 15 bags nearly immediately. I notice lots of beginners luck with some good rolls out of the first few bags and then no more complaints.

 

EDIT: In addition to whatever Champ gear you get, thats 45 Cent comms thats worth ANY tier 1 piece except the weapon.

Edited January 24, 2012 by RJChief

[shaidarlol]

It's for PvE...

 

I also stated at the bottom that you could remove the ability to obtain Wards via RvR (PvP).

 

The only thing higher tier gear gives is slightly higher stats, and possibly varying Set bonuses.

 

With the way they've stated they want gear to work, one could then remove the set bonuses they've obtained from gear and place it on other gear. In the future that is.

 

Please read that post in its entirety.

 

 

lol i may be super dense but i just dont follow how that is in any way better than the expertise system

[Sanwa]

I agree... With all respect the smart person could hold 1 champ bag before 50, stack 1000/1000 comms for 5 bags, complete 2 dailies for 2 bags and 2 weeklies for 3 bags each (all in 24 hours of turning 50) --> Total 12 bags nearly immediately. I notice lots of beginners luck with some good rolls out of the first few bags and then no more complaints.

 

Thats what I did granted I only got 2 things out of those bags I was lucky one was my main hand. Really what this boils down to is .

 

1. I just started why do you have an advantage over me even though you have spent many days trying to get the little bit of gear you have.

 

2. I only pvp part time and Im sick of dying by somebody who is better. So I have to blame it on something. Because it couldnt be im not as good as that other person.

 

3.Im in full champ gear and have gotten rolled by guys in Rakata/Columi gear you know what Maybe they were better maybe it was there gear I just dont know. Im just saying you can be competive in pvp with raid gear.

[Treebyrn]

And where this system is flawed it would be easier to get raid gear from PvP than PvE and we would get people with no intention of PvPing in our groups farming for their PvE gear therefore ruining the core PvPers experience

 

I think it is time developers make pve only servers so that people like you can do all the pve you want to do with out having to worry about pvpers getting their gear 1 day before you do.

On these new pve on servers there is no pvp at all... no warzones and no open world pvp.. you can still do Illum but now all rewards are tied to killing npc's.

 

After doing this then the developers can then make pvp/pve servers where you can either pvp or pve for your gear and there is no longer a pvp stat to c*ck block people with. On these servers the more time you dedicate to the game the slightly better gear you get but not enough to ensure an outright win every time.

 

Oh and to the person I quoted I am not trying to call you out... just trying to quote the whole pvpers would get gear faster and easier example.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Treebyrn

[StealthStalker]

lol i may be super dense but i just dont follow how that is in any way better than the expertise system

 

 

What you gain by going to a higher tier of gear is very slightly higher base stats. I mean single digit differences here on each stat/piece of gear. The second difference in different tiers of gear were set bonuses. The latter of which can be quite potent.

 

Gear in WAR had up to 5 set bonuses (later on up to 6), starting with 2 pieces generally. So people began wearing gear that they liked the set bonuses of more than anything.

 

Interestingly the first couple of set bonuses were stat based. So you could see people either going for higher stats by mixing two sets, or going for a full set for the potent last bonus.

 

Now, to prevent people from just going in and PvP'ing for great gear, then taking it into PvE (as you mentioned in one of your posts), you had to deal with wards.

 

Wards theoretically can then only be obtained by progressing in PvE content. You must get a drop from a certain boss, or kill that boss X amount of times. Basically any # you deem acceptable as having farmed that boss/tier of content before needing to go to the next one.

 

Gear obtained in PvE also has only slightly higher stats (relative to previous tier PvE gear), and different set bonuses. These are generally focused towards PvE, while the PvP ones are obviously generally focused toward PvP.

 

There's no gear-inflation. There's no way to use PvP gear in PvE to progress. PvE gear then doesn't overpower PvP, because the stats are equivalent.

 

Ideally you could tack on a Realm Rank system so that long-time pvp'ers still have an advantage over those who PvP less... but that's another topic.

Edited January 24, 2012 by StealthStalker

[shaidarlol]

the funniest thing about this is, everyone is complaining about this system because the game is so new. within a few months when majority of the population is 50 and have a decent amount of expertise. all these complaints will go away, because when everyone has the same amount of pvp gear it really boils down to skill or maybe some ppl will go back to class imbalance posts.

 

expertise may or may not be the perfect pvp system, but it's good enough. if you dont have it, take the time and get it. instead of wanting to remove it simply because you got trashed by someone who put in the time or got super lucky and got the gear needed.

 

none of this is going to matter later on. frankly, i find class imbalance posts much more interesting and entertaining.