"Addons are stupid and WoW is easy."

[dmanlong]

I played wow before pugging any form of raid was even possible, due to its difficulties. If you werent in a good guild, you wouldnt see end game content. If you were bad, that was the reason.

You had to have x amount of stats before raiding and you had to do your job really well. You couldnt be carried.

 

WoW is a complete joke in standards of difficulty now.

 

If you played before the massive nerf midway through TBC You'd understand. After the nerf and change of engine... illidan was able to be tanked by a void walker at level 70 which was max level. Thats a joke. Wrath was a joke and too easy too. I cleared the whole game with my guild of friends in less than 3 months. That was before ICC was available, so we took a few months break. ICC came out and we had it on farm pretty much after a few attempts to learn mechanics.

 

Tell me that you played before The big nerf mid burning crusade, and that you found it ridiculously easy... and I will salute you.

 

My personal opinion though on this matter of add ons...

 

I'd prefer not to have meters telling me everything. It removes a sense of skill, since you learn that x combination does x amount of damage, so you turn into a mindless drone.

 

Sure having damage meters encourage people to reach for top dps. Sure it also helps tanks judge the threat on mobs with ease... but this also takes away the challenge. You have something telling you everything with minimal effort.

 

You have add ons telling you when phases are about to start, how long it is until a boss casts a certain spell. Markers placed on people with debuffs to make it extremely easy to see.

 

The sense of challenge goes out the window. I miss the old days when you didnt rely on meters and warnings. It added an extra depth of player awareness and challenge.

 

Disagree all you want. Thats my view.

 

Totally wrong. All content pre-nerf is unpuggable, they just have hard modes now. Firefighter in Ulduar pre-nerf was as hard or harder than any other content released.

 

Sorry, the same people that I play with in the game now are the same people I raided hardmodes ICC with and the same people years ago in BC. The fights are actually more difficult in mechanics now but access is easier.

 

Karazan was brutal when first released but was totally puggable along with Grulls and SSC after 6 months. T6 and Sunwell were not but they had massive gear checks. Gear is the only reason those later fights could not be done.

[Hirogen]

I played wow before pugging any form of raid was even possible, due to its difficulties. If you werent in a good guild, you wouldnt see end game content. If you were bad, that was the reason.

You had to have x amount of stats before raiding and you had to do your job really well. You couldnt be carried.

 

WoW is a complete joke in standards of difficulty now.

 

If you played before the massive nerf midway through TBC You'd understand. After the nerf and change of engine... illidan was able to be tanked by a void walker at level 70 which was max level. Thats a joke. Wrath was a joke and too easy too. I cleared the whole game with my guild of friends in less than 3 months. That was before ICC was available, so we took a few months break. ICC came out and we had it on farm pretty much after a few attempts to learn mechanics.

 

Tell me that you played before The big nerf mid burning crusade, and that you found it ridiculously easy... and I will salute you.

 

My personal opinion though on this matter of add ons...

 

I'd prefer not to have meters telling me everything. It removes a sense of skill, since you learn that x combination does x amount of damage, so you turn into a mindless drone.

 

Sure having damage meters encourage people to reach for top dps. Sure it also helps tanks judge the threat on mobs with ease... but this also takes away the challenge. You have something telling you everything with minimal effort.

 

You have add ons telling you when phases are about to start, how long it is until a boss casts a certain spell. Markers placed on people with debuffs to make it extremely easy to see.

 

The sense of challenge goes out the window. I miss the old days when you didnt rely on meters and warnings. It added an extra depth of player awareness and challenge.

 

Disagree all you want. Thats my view.

 

Sorry I can't agree with you, I played WoW from day one, with only a few 1 month breaks due my work. I played Vanilla, TBC, WOTKL, CATA... in TBC I played in one of the top 3000 Guilds (which means something about the top 50k players in the world ).

 

Sure Hyjal and BT were a joke, but Sunwell... well ... this was a hell of a ride, if you didnt have a specific combo you couldn't even kill a boss...

 

Hardmodes were always challenging, in Wotkl the same in Cata... A Tribute to Insanity (25) was just a pain in the ***... and if you tried "A Tribute to Immortality" just... well like Naxx40 in Vanilla

 

Lich King Heroic was a-one-man fail encounter... if only one player forgot about the voidzone... end of the game wipe => reset => again... and this was with 25% percent buff for every stat .

 

Only One Guild in the world killed the lich king with 0% Buff... and that was paragon...

 

And in cata... well well... Nefarian heroic was pain in the ***... specific combo was necassary before you could attempt it...and the mrs Dragon aka Sinestra herself...is even now with tier13 (2 Tiers after release) just an a**kicking f***ing... b*tch, healing and DPS race...

 

-----

Clarification for others => A Tribute to Immortality => 5 Nightmare bosses, NO ONE was ALLOWED TO DIE in the whole Instance... this was a nightmare...

 

 

Totally wrong. All content pre-nerf is unpuggable, they just have hard modes now. Firefighter in Ulduar pre-nerf was as hard or harder than any other content released.

 

Sorry, the same people that I play with in the game now are the same people I raided hardmodes ICC with and the same people years ago in BC. The fights are actually more difficult in mechanics now but access is easier.

 

Karazan was brutal when first released but was totally puggable along with Grulls and SSC after 6 months. T6 and Sunwell were not but they had massive gear checks. Gear is the only reason those later fights could not be done.

 

Couldn't agree more

Edited January 5, 2012 by Hirogen

[Rigwit]

Early raiding content was about finding enough people to actually do the raids and having the time to spend 30 hours a week in a raid due to the massive amount of inefficiencies that existed. The content difficulty level was very low.

 

A 40 man guild had 20 good players and 20 afk players. Tank and healers only spammed one button over and over until he boss was dead. The hardest part was having mages spend an hour before raid making food for everyone.

 

You could get away with a stock UI and no add ons because the encounters were simple and bad players were allowed to play simply because they had the time. If the philosophy is let the encounters be easy because we we have a bad UI and no add ons the so be it, but I would rather face a dynamic and difficult boss and need add ons to make life easier.

 

Guess you're talking about early WoW raiding.

 

My early raiding experience is a guild with 100-ish members, 100-ish of whom were good players. We were also generally ready to go at a moment's notice, which we had to be since there were no instances and bosses were often on VERY long respawn timers. People made sure AFTER each raid to stock up on any items that were required during raid.

 

The most spectacular raids I've done though, were the spur of the moment Relic Raids in DAoC. The biggest one was probably some 200 vs 200 players at the Relic keep itself (after they fixed most of the crash and performance issues ) as well as groups of some 20-25 people taking smaller keeps around the map.

 

I realize MMO's have evolved, and stuff like this isn't likely to happen again, but it does show that add-ons aren't "required" (like many people like to claim) until the devs start developing encounters with certain add-ons in mind.

 

Again, I'm not against add-ons by default, just the ones that automate half the game.

[ajjw]

Only One Guild in the world killed the lich king with 0% Buff... and that was paragon...

Paragon's World 1st LK 25HC kill was with the 5% Buff, with World 2nd not being claimed until the 10% Buff was introduced.

 

I know Paragon also went back and did it with 0% much later once they had more gear - Did no one else?

[NoxiousAlby]

Another question,

If third party addons are allowed and obviously some people will use them to make their task "easier" dont we then run the risk of demanding harder content for making our tasks to easy?

 

Being able to modify your UI is something I believe will eventually be added to the game, customization is a good thing. But I just worry that 3rd party mods will lead to a slippery slope, if the current content was difficult and required them then that would be another matter.

[Hirogen]

Paragon's World 1st LK 25HC kill was with the 5% Buff, with World 2nd not being claimed until the 10% Buff was introduced.

 

I know Paragon also went back and did it with 0% much later once they had more gear - Did no one else?

 

Not that I know off, but I could be wrong and you absolutely correct with the 5% buff.

 

 

Another question,

If third party addons are allowed and obviously some people will use them to make their task "easier" dont we then run the risk of demanding harder content for making our tasks to easy?

 

Being able to modify your UI is something I believe will eventually be added to the game, customization is a good thing. But I just worry that 3rd party mods will lead to a slippery slope, if the current content was difficult and required them then that would be another matter.

 

Thats the reason why blizz "banned", as in broke the functionality, a few addons

Edited January 5, 2012 by Hirogen

[dmanlong]

The biggest issue most people have is with a add on like Deadly Boss Mods where it tell you when to move and calls out certain mechanics. I am fine without this add on as long as the boss is not so tightly tuned that you can't beat it without a add on.

 

For example when working on Heroic Ragnaros - you had a single global cooldown to move as a group in phase 2 or you would die when the seeds spawned. There was a countdown that told everyone when to move. If someone didnt move it was a wipe. This fight has a zero tolerance for failure mechanic and you need everyone alive to win. The encounters themselves were created knowing a add on would be needed.

[Hirogen]

For example when working on Heroic Ragnaros - you had a single global cooldown to move as a group in phase 2 or you would die when the seeds spawned. There was a countdown that told everyone when to move. If someone didnt move it was a wipe. This fight has a zero tolerance for failure mechanic and you need everyone alive to win. The encounters themselves were created knowing a add on would be needed.

 

I don't think thats correct, for blizz has added enought information within the "ui" to help players, but I concur with your first statement.

[Mahka]

So basically your argument to not having damage meters is it makes the rotation easier? Because you know what set rotation does the most damage? How about making damage rotations engage and thought invoking instead of mindless sequence of buttons, you know challenging. AND giving us a system to compare how we stack up against others so we can tweak that to maximize our dps in situations that require you to change around your rotation?

 

Then again we're talking about the company that can't event get a pylon even working properly. WHATS DAT U PREZD DA BOOTON 5 TIEMZ? BUGGED LOL RESET INSTANCE.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Mahka

[Hirogen]

So basically your argument to not having damage meters is it makes the rotation easier? Because you know what set rotation does the most damage? How about making damage rotations engage and thought invoking instead of mindless sequence of buttons, you know challenging. AND giving us a system to compare how we stack up against others so we can tweak that to maximize our dps in situations that require you to change around your rotation?

There should be ways to maximize dps/healing... but this will start out in cookie-cutter builds and players telling players how they should not suck as bad... and i don't think thats what we want?

 

For example... I like the 3-4 Hybrid builds that are available for Sith Assassin tanks , It just gives us more freedom to play how we like to play, and I hate cookie-cutter builds ... -.-

Edited January 5, 2012 by Hirogen

[Raeln]

This information is entirely false. LFD is not real raiding. All of the mechanics are mostly removed. Very few guilds have killed any of the bosses on hard modes.

 

I think it's worth pointing out that the number of people running WoW's LFR is greater than the number of people trying to run hardmodes - or even raid outside of LFR in any capacity.

 

People need to keep in mind that some/many/most [insert some numerical descriptive] of players only mess with raiding because it is typically the only path of gear upgrades.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Raeln

[Gvaz]

That is why they don't want them. They enjoy the playstyle of being bad and not caring. They enjoy just bumbling around and pressing whatever buttons they feel like because the attack or spell looks neat. They want a game where the difficulty is balanced around them being able to do so.

 

They don't want a game that has addons because not only does the game difficulty become balanced around people using those addons to perform their job better, but the other players also now have the tools to see how bad these people really are, and now they aren't getting their free ride through content anymore.

 

Right, they're allowed to do that.

 

However that means they should stay the hell out of hard modes and raids.

[Garrix]

Where's your heroic -anything- kill?

 

WoWs heroic endgame is still one of the most difficult challenges in the gaming world. SWTOR is pathetic in comparison. However, in terms of questing and solo play, SWTOR is much more challenging and I feel you really learn how to play your class to it's SOLO potential through doing the difficult elite story quests.

 

Also, no addons/customizing? Watch this game go the way of AoC in a few months. If you are truly a casual player, THEN WHY DO YOU CARE IF HARDCORE GAMERS USE ADDONS. How does someone elses customization ruin YOUR play?

 

If you say because they harass you for being bad by linking meters, I have bad news for you. You are actually bad, and someone pointed it out to you after carrying you through that content.

 

If anything is pathetic its you? The game is not even 3 weeks old! WoW didn't have heroics when it was that old. It had no BGs, no arena, no dungeon finder, no raid instances, even some 5 mans were not in yet, and not just end game but stuff like Maraudon! If you are 50 already, do yourself and the rest of us a favor........don't ***** becuase the endgame isn't keeping you busy 24/7. Pretty soon you'll have all the gear and be QQing that the game has not content, which is what you are doing here already. How about you log off and go explore the real world for a while. No life QQ baby!

[socoamaretto]

I would just be happy with a dps meter.

 

Boss mods are a crutch. I raided heroic lich king without dbm/etc....and this game is no different. Once you learn when stuff comes, via %, visual queues, or by what they say, you know what to do without a mod.

 

 

But the fact I feel I'm doing just as much dps in heroics as the tank and we wipe to enrage upsets me, and I have no way of telling them they suck cause I can't prove anything.

[Gvaz]

Yeah. I was just leaving WoW when that came in.

 

What would be great is addons - or a degree of customisation - that are very carefully implemented and thought through to avoid misuse, i.e. Bartender type addons and external combat logs, e.g. World of Logs etc. They'd be cool.

 

What I absolutely don't want to see is in-game Recount type resource. I kinda like the idea of WoL taking some skill to interpret - what's not cool is having Recount (et al) misinterpreted, where DPS is the be all and end all. In 8 man hardmode Ops, I'm almost certain appropriate use of each classes versatility / survivability tools will be equally as valuable.

 

tbh, I'm not sure that both sides of this fence are really disagreeing. What we ALL want is an optimum gaming experience - it's just that my side of the fence may be looking for caution in implementation.

 

You're raging against the user not the program.

 

The program is fine, the user misinterprets and applies it improperly is when that goes wrong.

 

Rage against stupid pubbies who shouldn't be in charge of it, not the application which itself has good merits.

[Darthlemi]

Doesn't anybody think it's strange that 3rd party addons are basically required to do content in WoW?

 

That said, I'm fine with having addons for those who want them.

[Darthlemi]

The perception that tons of people are trying to get free rides through content is really silly. That perception is just more elitist sentiment. In 4 years of MMOs I have never encountered anybody like that.

[DoYouReadThis]

Where's your heroic -anything- kill?

 

WoWs heroic endgame is still one of the most difficult challenges in the gaming world. SWTOR is pathetic in comparison. However, in terms of questing and solo play, SWTOR is much more challenging and I feel you really learn how to play your class to it's SOLO potential through doing the difficult elite story quests.

 

Also, no addons/customizing? Watch this game go the way of AoC in a few months. If you are truly a casual player, THEN WHY DO YOU CARE IF HARDCORE GAMERS USE ADDONS. How does someone elses customization ruin YOUR play?

 

If you say because they harass you for being bad by linking meters, I have bad news for you. You are actually bad, and someone pointed it out to you after carrying you through that content.

 

I'm not going to bother reading anything but this thread:

 

I will summarize what you want: An easy "tell-you-what-to-do" addon that tells you exactly when you hit button x or y. That is not a challenge, and spare me, WoW heroic endgame is not difficult.

[spookybits]

Having done a few operations now and many many HM flashpoints the one thing I really want is a DOT timer, or an option to only show your buffs/debuffs on a target.

 

In flashpoints it is not too bad but we had 3 DPS sages one night (me being one). It is almost impossible to keep track of which debuff is yours and when it needs to be refreshed when there are 3 of them mixed in amongst all the other debuffs, you end up not really watching too much of the fight and instead concentrating on the debuff bar only.

[Zerosix]

I'm not going to bother reading anything but this thread:

 

I will summarize what you want: An easy "tell-you-what-to-do" addon that tells you exactly when you hit button x or y. That is not a challenge, and spare me, WoW heroic endgame is not difficult.

 

No one is asking for that, what people are asking is for example addons that

 

1. Can move your bars around(make it 1 big block where all the skills you use are rather than how it is now(not enough space)

 

2. An addon that for example shows the cooldown on abilities as a number rather than a slider so you know exactly when you can use it rather than guess(you dont scratch off the numbers off your car's speedometer because it makes it "HARDER" do you?)

 

3. A combat log/parsing tool/damage meter that can allow to see what rotations are the best for when people face hard bosses in less gear or even just to perfect their ability to play the class.

 

Also where are these "addons that tell you what to do exactly when you have to use x or y" ? Have played WoW for years yet I've never seen or even heard of such addons. Now you knowing about them may be from using them yourself?

[morporkia]

Also where are these "addons that tell you what to do exactly when you have to use x or y" ? Have played WoW for years yet I've never seen or even heard of such addons. Now you knowing about them may be from using them yourself?

 

I feel as though a lot of the people disparaging the use of add-ons don't have a clear idea of what they're allowed to do (at least in WoW).

 

Healbot's name is misleading, for example: it doesn't actually make healing robotic. I believe -- I may be wrong; this was before my time -- it did at one point suggest spells to use, or targets for healing, or something of that sort, but Blizzard put an end to that. These days, it's just another raid frame add-on that allows healers to customize the information they see on raid frames and 'click-heal' (bind left-mouse-click to Flash Heal, for instance, and right-mouse-click to Greater Heal), freeing up a few keys for other keybinds. That's it.

 

It doesn't automate the process of healing. Add-ons like that aren't allowed in WoW, and nobody's suggesting that they should be allowed in ToR.

[fireflyking]

After reading 28 pages of posts I've realized this has become entirely off topic with most people just wanting to argue for the sake of arguing. No one is open minded, no one considers the opposing opinions views or stand point. They just want to argue and complain and discuss WoW.

[Zorke]

After reading 28 pages of posts I've realized this has become entirely off topic with most people just wanting to argue for the sake of arguing. No one is open minded, no one considers the opposing opinions views or stand point. They just want to argue and complain and discuss WoW.

 

 

Pretty much. Though, there really is no logical argument against the use of addons, or even the proper tools we need to play an mmo competitively. Saying "i got bullied because i suck at dps and stand in fire," is not a valid argument. That is a problem with the players, not the tool.

 

In an mmo, you have a choice of who you play with. If you don't like someone, do not play with them. I have been playing with the same group of friends for nearly 5 years now, the core of us remaining the same as some come and go. You should learn to make friends, it's pretty cool.

[Nicdanger]

I prefer to use tools that allow me to improve and play at the top of my abilities.

 

Sure add-ons force gamemakers to create more difficult encounters. Why is that a problem. I'd rather have challenging content while I'm playing well than be handicapped and tee off from the women's tee box, no offense ladies!

[Kurrinos]

With addons in place, you start paying attention to the numbers and your performance instead of just playing and enjoying the game. They drain the fun out of a form of entertainment. That is why casual players don't enjoy them.

 

For me this is just NoNoNo! The exact opposite is true, because of Not having add-ons and it's very simple really.

 

To be a better player you need to utalise all your skills to their full potential, which in regards to my first class a Defence Asassin, I can not do without staring at the tiny row of icons above my health bar. Some of main abilities give a chance to give an on hit effect which is indicated by a tiny icon, there is no extra glow effect, sound, or anyother feedback from the game to indicate they have activated apart from those damn icons.

 

So, I tend to spend most of my time looking at 1% of the screen waiting for little boxes to apear so I can use the correct skills at the correct time. This isn't fun...at all. If there was something more central in the screen that could customised, which indicated when these special on hit effects happened then people wouldn't have to do stare at 3 icons. This could be done with a UI mod, or by having an extra effect occuring on the player char, anything really.

 

Untill this happens, anyone who wants to play thier class to the best of thier abilities will be forced to play a very boring game of hit the weasle and have eye strain after playing for more than an hour.

 

I don't mind for damage meters, or threat meaters, or the other million and one mods we have seen in other games.. but I hope for peoples sanity (and thier future eyesight) something is done about the current UI's state, as some of it is, in my opinion, close to being not fit for purpose.