Elyx
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Posts posted by Elyx
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Wow, dps jugg is fine, because you have high numbers in pvp?? You do realize that hitting 6 people with a 4-6k smash is a big skew of your dps? The aoe damage does nothing for you in a one vs. one situation or in PVE boss fights. Don't misrepresent the class. They can up the damage without increasing smash and you would still not feel overpowered. I hit people repetetively for 5-6k with my sniper, trust me, juggs are underpowered. We all know Ops are even harder hitters and can take people down in a matter of seconds so if you think your damage is at par then you are foolish.
You
Know
Jack
Squat
show me the numbers plx. until then, your talking out your glutes. Like most the posters in here. the sheer ignorance amazes me.
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i wish for everything on this wish list so far!
well..If I had to state something purposefully, I would second the endurance stat in Immortal, and raise you a shorter CD on the 10pt talent in same tree.
Increase DoT's in Venge and/or shorten duration. increased base damage on shatter.
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I actually think it's ironically humorous in this day and age of MMO's that people can still assume that a "tank" class will just "do" less damage then other classes.
WoW proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that tank classes can do as much (and often more overall) then DPS classes...with DPS still pulling ahead in actual DPS instead of damage. They proved that a class doesn't have to be limited by its percieved "role", and for the most part, the populace understood that. Take the current status for Fury warriors, as an example. a great tank, and in their DPS stance one of the best DPS classes in the game.
Yet we come over here, and it seems that people are still perfectly happy to sit in dark corners, mumbling chants and waving voodoo sticks above their heads, recanting odd ideas like a tank class can't do as much damage as a DPS class....even if they are DPS specced.
now, I can't argue about raid buffs/debuffs as time goes on and content progreses. But that's like saying that you need a 10$ raise now because 5 yrs from now your rent could be too high to afford it with your current income. sure, everyone would like an extra 10$/hr, but just about every company in the world would laugh in your face at a request like that.
will we need an advantage that will make us attractive if raid progress to a point where you average Joe raider (38% of the population iirc atm) will need every edge he can get? quite possible. is it needed now? nope. but yet were getting some changes in 1.2, perhaps this will be the edge we need. and if were getting it now instead of when it's actually needed, that will be refreshing. or it may make us look OP.
Imagine if we were buffed to the point that we were simply the best DPS class out there. we outshined the best pure DPS class by 10% easily, maybe even 15. imagine if people cried about it, and Bio's response was, "well, we plan on making Op's harder, so in a few patches it will even out." I wonder how well that would go down...
Not that Im arguing against change, or that we don't need polish (especially the tank spec...it's really the only one that I can see that is actually hurting for damage atm). But I'll again reiterate that the issue here is not lack of DPS, but lack of intelligent people out there how can actually make a logical deduction about Jugg damage, rather then shut their eyes and listen to innuendo. And this doesn't include everyone, of course. but the intelligent people arent saying juggs are broke...they're saying we need some adjustment.
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Don't think your missing much. I'm personally hoping that those are a few of the things they are addressing when they said they are giving Jugg/knights "new" stuff in 1.2
But, on the flip side, they're not horribad. compared to the other options in the tree (speaking solely for PvE btw), there's not much more damage incorporating talents. they are also internal damage, which means they bypass armor (and other defense types). if you compare the actual bleed to the damage of the skills, they are reasonable buffs to those skills.
Are they worth the talent points that deep in the tree? probably not. but they're what we have for now. Hopefully they'll buff them to make them worth the points. If we were lacking damage in that department, that would be a logical place to buff it IMO.
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My DPS Jugg uses the Vengeance and will be 4/32/5 at level 50. It has been the best build for DPS Jugging so far. Here's a picture of her specs at level 42- http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2012/073/6/3/sere__s_vengeance_spec_by_vadess40-d4sq62q.jpg
I pretty much run that too. great spec. love Vengance DPS
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Marauders are far more dps, not sure why this is still a debate.
Go to Hoth,in the heroic area over by Snowblind, there is a Champion standing there next to a chest.
Have a Marauder kill him
then have a DPS Jugg kill him after he respawns
Time both fights.
People have done this. On average, the two classes are pretty close in the timed event's I've seen. Please feel free to post yours if you disagree. and PvP screenies don't count.
For anyone who is stating that the summit discussed class DPS, could I have a link to the data? Not doubting, honestly interested. If there's a disparity, I'd like to see it.
In all honesty, the only times I see people say Mauraders out DPS Juggs is when they have NO data available other then their own opinions...which are usually fed by opinions of others. pure spiculation. I've made this statement in dozens of posts, and have yet to have someone able to feed me solid data. only anecdotal experience.
So I'm awaiting links on this information from the summit. I'd be perfectly happy to see mauraders edge ahead of juggs by a fraction. but in my play and in what i see as it pertains to real data? isn't happening.
And yes, DPS specced Juggs do great damage when played well. My jugg is one of 3 different classes i Play at high levels, and she kills just as fast as my other classes...of course, this is anecdotal expeirence (like all the other rantings in the forums), so take it with a grain of salt.
the question in this post itself can be misleading. But to answer it...if Bio sees a bad enough disparity, they will adjust. But were not dealing with a true disparity most the time, were dealing with ignorance
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pretty much to save money.
at least with my biochem i know i'll save money, had a character on my old server with biochem, bioanalysis and diplomacy, he was very broke from running diplomacy a lot to work on biochem so i could get the blues/purples
so i figure i'll craft green medpacs from resources i gather and sell the mats once i stockpile medpacs. so i was thinking of doing the same thing with other crafts if it was viable enough in that the things i create would be decent at just being greens
Can't argue with that logic
Id definitely go with gathering on your main then. stick with crafting on the alts. Quick tip: pick alts that you wouldn't mind leveling at some point. It's always frustrating to get stuck with a high level craft that you don't want to drop on a toon you don't want to play
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There is an imbalance because some people are idiots and enjoy being bad. Who would you rather be a crazed wriggled old man with no friends (Palpatine) or one of the heroes who saved thousands of people (Luke).
I do not believe the sith or empire has better story lines. I do not want to play a crazed mind controlled slave. There is more freedom in the republic than in the empire because you are not under the control of one person and basically a slave to that one person.
I find the JK story epic and basically the story of KOTOR 3. The sith story is twisted and evil. I love exposing and turning in rotten senators and corrupt officials because it what I would love to do to most members of congress.
This is Star Wars where the good guys win and evil is defeated for a time.
It sort of funny how many people see the empire storyline as "crazed" or "evil" or "whatever". those are pretty ignorant statements. I've leveled multiple empire toons, and have never had to make those choices personally. with the exception of a few quests (that I've bugged for that reason).
All my toons on empire side are light toons that have chosen to help those people in the situations where the empire wanted evil to be done. IMO I'm actually doing more for good then I would be on repub side. I even have one of my toons set up as a repub plant (as far as the RP goes).
the only thing i got from your ignorant rant is you haven't even really tried to play empire side. Which is fine. but don't lump me into some whacked category of kids who get off on dark fantasies. The fact that you can't build your own story in a universe ripe with options isn't my fault.
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Both are fine with DPS. There are no stats out that definitively state that one is better then the other. Bio specifically said that all DPS specs should be withing 5% of each other.
So end result is, play the one you like. Personally, I like them both. Sage is a little more boring IMO....shield chuck rocks till dead. depending on your spec you'll have a few procs to manage. I find Shadow a bit more interesting. But I've always been more melee oriented.
Balance shadow is a nice mix of ranged style skills and melee skills if you want to do both. Plus they do make good tanks as well when specced appropriately
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I came to this conclusion while waiting for your response. The only real reason (other than being twisted) for going with dark-side options is in fact role play. I get it, honest. You play a Sith Warrior, and it wouldn't make sense for him to stop and smell a flower, or pet a bunny. It would make sense for him to kill anybody in his way. So that has opened my eyes.
Know what you mean. prior military, self-defense instructor afterwords, specialized in women's S/D. there's enough nasty stuff out there in real life that I don't need it in my game.
Ironically, I went empire.
It could be RP reasons, though i stick with light side empire. I adjust my RP to reflect that. tried the dark option...just can't do it.
My main reason to go Empire (not dark....empire), was the character design and animation. I love my juggernaut, but I don't enjoy playing the knight on repub side. I like BH, but find the trooper boring to play (and don't like the rifle option). the animations on many of the empire toons are more interesting to me. I also like the gear styles more on empire side (again, not dark). On a different note, I prefer the sage/consular animations over the inquisitor (yes...im one of the rare peeps that doesn't like the lightning. feel like a bug zapper). I like the storylines on empire side more, but i like the story intent (and some portions of the plot development) on repub side more.
So I end up mixed. One of my big issues is many of the quests don't really give you solid light/dark options. I'm thinking of one in particular (of many), on coruscant. where you have a girl whos family was destroyed by the war, and is fighting a senator whos against the movement. she makes sense. I want to help her. i get caught getting info from the droid. the guy who catches me gives me some speech about ruining democracy. so my choice is to allow a bad senator to continue his mis-information (light choice), and give the girl false information, or take the truth back to her, which was dark.
And to top it off...i had to lie to her to continue my light side points.
many of the quests just leave me scratching my head as to why i got what I did. I'm actually happier about my light side choices often on the empire side. Most of them feel like your giving the person a break, and really helping them out. many of the repub light choices leave me feeling like im at best a poor negotiator. a family gets kicked out of their farm. I go back, and aliens there say their claim is more important. so I have to decide who to give it to? I guess my option for making them both farm the plot is the best....but I didn't feel like i was really being the good guy at that point. just too many times i wondered if it was really a good choice on repub side. whereas on empire side, it was very black and white. i could play the light side person, put some intresting RP into it for the character, and the choice between dark side and light side were often very clear. far more then on repub side.
the light shines brightest in the darkness. Empire and republic are mere shells for the evil and the good are on both sides. your choices make you who you are.
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Gratz on your post OP. I've always enjoyed GC's insight. He was a rare breed.
But I also find many of their insights failry interesting, as it seems that after running different molds, they are falling back on many ideas that they had in the older game, that they eschewed in Wrath and Cat.
An example is shoehorning people into areas. by creating avenues for raiders to more easily get to raids, by creating raid environments that allowed them to isolate themselves from the rest of the world detracted from much of the enjoyment of the world, turning the game into a slot machine for tokens.
yet, at the same time, they made many of those choices specificaly to try to take much of the "tedium' out of the process. the idea was to get the player to what they wanted without things they didn't want in the way.
A great example of this is the RDF tool. designed to streamline instances and grouping, it's net effect was that it took away any need to actually see or go to areas!
I remember running with people in RDF that wouldn't know how to get back to the instance when we wiped. I'd ask them if they'd ever done the run before, and they're comment would be along the lines of "a half dozen times or so. bet never been to the actual instance before"....it usually left me speecheless.
It's these kinds of changes that have allowed Blizz to figuratively "shoot themselves in the foot". So it's humorously ironic to me that they are now realizing that in much of this "improvement' process, they have lost many of the richness of what made MMO's so attractive to those who played them.
they lost the forest for the trees. While i hope that Bio learns from the mistakes of WoW, I think it's good to remember that yesterdays "Mistakes" can easily turn out to be todays "improvements". and vice versa of course.
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Deleted, double post
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I may have missed it, but why are you only crafting greens?
Blue patterns tend to proc often enough that ill do a few extra Re's to get the blue. Or are you avoiding missions altogether to save money?
If that's the case, the key with missions is to sell what you don't use on the GMT. if your only crafting to gear up companions, then level up the mission skill you need, take a few blue items for yourself, and sell the rest on your GMT. You'll actually end up in the positive.
Edit: on the note of craft choices, I did something similar. I went with gathering on my main (arch, scavanging, UT for my blue items), and then created alts for synth and cybertech (you could sub in armortech for synth if your preference is BH/agent over force weilder). gather on your main, craft on your alts. it's not an end game design, but worked like a charm for me for leveling.
at higher levels i dropped the gathering skills for artifice (kept arch) and TH so i could craft crystals and the relics/sabers. I was very satisfied with the results. only downside is with that your not going to get the hilts for your sabers. But it's a tradeoff...you could sub in TH instead of UT, but then your synth and mods would suffer. best option is to set up one of your alts with artifice and TH, and then feed them money for the TH.
But if you really want to stick with greens...you can probably run with bio/arch/scavange, and feed the results to 3-4 different alts for craftings skills. cyber, artifice, synth, and bio. but your going to get quest rewards and drops that are green already...other then the rare slot that you simply don't find, there's not allot of logic to crafting for only greens...
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For me its a pick your poison. if you go with armor craft, you can often craft armor that you will have a hard time finding moddable pieces for (belt, wrist, etc). plus if you make the right choice, you can often gear up your companions as well with the craft (they can easily get left behing in the questing gear rush). Plus, most the quest gear from companions is green, and i prefer my pets to be as well equipped as I am.
The downside to armor crafts is your limited to the armor type of your choice. your synthweaver cannot make armor for your Bounty hunter (with those rare exceptions of moddables that aren't class locked).
Cybertech is nice that you can make mods for anyone. plus the speeders, and something most people forget...the explosives, and shields. i use the shields allot as most shields you get questing are green.
the downside with Cybertech is if your regularly upgradeing you and your companions gear, your crafting ALLOT. for every one piece you craft with synth (from green to blue to purple) your having to craft 3 mods to equal it. more crafting, more time, and more materials (even if just by a little bit overall). Plus the speeder patterns are BoP (though that will change soon).
So I think it's personal preference. I have all 3 though, so I don't have to really choose. interestingly enough, my cybertech is the highest...but my best geared toon has always been my sage with synthweave. my other toons can use the mods, but they end up with green accessories for the non moddable items. but my sage is decked out in blues and purples completely.
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I leveled up entirely as Immortal, adding the Venge points at the end. Though I had friends to tank for along the way. If you're not doing FPS on your way up you may want to consider a DPS spec to get you there.
^^ This. early on, your biggest issue will be rage generation. most the rage generation tools you will have are in the immortal tree, so start working up that. as a matter of fact, two skills in the first immortal tier are golden for rage efficiency. a free force scream every time you leap (very heavy hitter), and an extra rage point every sunder strike really helps out at the low levels.
On Gear: quest gear can be fine. when the option comes up to get a commendation rather then a gear piece in a quest though, i'd suggest you take it. the commendations can be used to buy new gear from vendors or mods to put into your orange gear (many commendation vendors have moddable gear for sale too!) Each planet will have one equipment commendations vendor and one equipment vendor.
option 2 is crafting. takes more time, but many people enjoy the crafting aspect, as you can make other items for friends as well, or sell your extras at the GMT (auction house) for more creds. Cybertech can make mods for your moddable (orange) gear, synthweaving can make you better gear then you'll get on quests...artifice can make you mods for your lightsaber, etc.
lots of options, but not for everyone ( I love it personally ).
last option is the GMT. usually expensive to do for all your gear, but ill always keep an eye open for choice pieces. found a purple wrist for my Jugg the other day, perfect upgrade. but i avoid it if i can...realistically you can level just fine with what you get from qeusts and commendation rewards
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Hm. Never thought to do that, because back in the day when I was rolling with him, that move ended up saving my bacon a few times. Might be worth doing, though, if I can improve his heals. Will give it a shot.
I really should have asked this question long before I started stacking crit/surge on Quinn. I think you're right, because even all geared out for it, his crit chance isn't very high.
that could be a playing style thing too. I think I've adapted to it now, and it does help out on those situations when you have an extra silver or elite join the fray. he'll often keep it frozen. of course, he can freeze the wrong mob too at times hehe...but i learned to adjust. Im a fan of pommel/hilt strike, so i take advantage of it everytime i see a mob covered in grey.
but it is true that he's not healing when hes freezing, so i guess it would depend on the mob that he's freezing as to whether its worth it or not. would that mob be doing more damage to me then he could heal?
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Biochem will still be useful. People will still want high level stims and medpacks and buy off the GMT. people will still have Bio on their mains for easier farming of materials. It just won't be the "popular" choice.
the key for Bio is to not go overboard with the other crafts. but at the same time, they're goal is to make most of the items BoE, which means you wont lose access to certain craftables if you don't have the craft itself.
so level Biochem if you like the idea. not because its the latest and greatest. My newer juggernaut is running it because i want the medpacks and stims available for cheap as I level, and I want to implant schematics as well. if anything, perhaps they'll make the implants the "hot" ticket for Bio (in a similar vent as augments and the armor crafts)
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In addition to the % change to RE, they are also going to list on the item tooltip whether it can result in a new schematic or not, as some green items currently cannot DE into blues (like many vibroblades).
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Nice to see a general Topic with a good conversation for once (a few ninnies, not bad though). Kudos to the OP and for the paced and intelligent responses.
Its interesting to see how many different aspects of gaming that people are dealing with, but more interesting is the simple aspect that it seems everyone agrees on.
The attitude of the general public in MMO's has gotten worse.
your initial comment about how MMO's used to be better is telling OP. The real question is...is the community worse because people stopped being a part of it, or did people stop being part of the community because it got worse?
My time in MMO's (like many others in this post, 10+ years) has lent me to believe that the community has gotten worse. I too pine for the "good old days" when grouping was a fun and social event. but if you look at many of those games in the past, they emphasized play time over rewards. there were certainly rewards, but you got far more rewards for the group then you did by simply obtaining marks/tokens/whatever.
It's not like my view changed overnight. It's not like I suddently decided to stop playing with groups. but over time, as I continually came back to the games I enjoyed, I saw less and less of the aspects of the game THAT I enjoyed actually there. I used to love grouping. even hanging out at portal stones you would talk, discuss classes and specs, and wonder where they heck that healer was running too.
it was fun, it was relaxed, and i enjoyed it. But over time, things changed. In part, i blame the market. companies realized there was an untapped market available, so they generalized their games to take advantage of that. quick reward systems came in place soon after. Everything was simplified to give everyone a fast and easy result. groups changed with this as well, and I lost allot of desire to do them. eventually, MMO's even had to change how they grouped people. it's almost as if they had to band-aid an issue they had created themselves.
I remember my last sojourn into WoW (before I gave it up for good), and I had heard about the random LFD tool. to me that was the death of the early MMO game. it was no longer about the community...it was about a slot machine. pull the lever, deal with a few personalities online for 20m, and you get a token! Wasn't it Pavlov's Dogs that proved that idea...decades ago....
Seems the MMO developers have re-realized a very simple aspect of the human nature.
Not that all changes have been bad. Graphics design, skill and tactical improvements, storylines and plots...all great things. but they overshadow a much deeper issue.
It's ironic that you OP, are worried about the direction MMO's are going with community, when most the people in this thread seem to agree with you. most of the reporters here are playing solo BECAUSE of the community, and where it's gone. But this is definitely partly the fault of the development of the MMO's themselves.
so...are MMO's going in the wrong direction? yes. But most of us veteran players don't have any control over that. It's the teeming mobs, and their new internet mentalities, that have spurned this. most of us players that wish for the old times are just sitting back and playing solo...waiting for a game that will put the dev time into something that is not mainstream, but still a well made game. that won't attract the mob. Or, I should add (as an edit), they are sticking to their well known buddys in a guild, or a small group of people.
Here's a nice story. The guild IM currently in (very small) was formed out of sheer luck one night by a group of 4 people, most of us well into our middle ages, with kids, who hit it off well on a few heroics on Dromund Kaas. We formed a small guild and were loving it. we all have severe alt-itis, and each play at least 3-5 toons at the same time. there's never nothing to do in our guild, whether its running a low level Fp with an alt, or running a planet for holocrons, or simply helping another guildee out. and we only have about 10 people in the guild
It's out there...but it's not the norm anymore. it's the exception. which is the real problem.
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Do the heroics, there's quite a few that you can complete without killing anything. When you get to 50, you can do the three Belsavis heroic 4s all by yourself, too.
I support this. hop back to the early planets (balmorra/taris and Nar shadaa) and hit those side quests. and advertise in chat for the heroics.
I've leveled over 9 toons into or past nar shadaa, about an equal amoutn on both factions. I picked up most the side quest (not allot really), and simply followed those chains as i did the storyline. most of the "side quests" are actually directly in line with the areas for the story quests, so you really don't have to go out of your way to get them done.
The most i've had to do is stay in an area for a bit longer (bit as in 15m) to finish off some of the bonus quests. Which are still in the same areas as the story quests. they usually involve a few steps, killing an elite at the end, and collecting a VERY nice fat reward for them (very worth it). I highly recommend the bonus series...almost would rather just do those then the main quests at times
On at least half of my toons I rarely ran heroics, just did the side quests, and I usually had to drop a few to skip up to the next planet, as i outleveled them. So you don't even need to DO all of them. so don't skip the bonus portions as well. great rewards, and can make up the difference in the quest disparity.
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To be honest, this game I've found is better then WoW, even at the point it is now. I will stay subscribed and will be subscribed until the day this game dies. The game is worthy of support, more so then any other MMO I've ever been part of, and I've been part of alot. Age of Conan, WoW, LOTRO, DDO, Global Agenda, COH/COV, Champions, DCU... Each one had its pros and cons but honestly, they are incapable of a good storyline. So long as this game gives us a strong story line, I will support it, and fortunately? Thats what Bioware Specializes in.
Its a shame people will quit before the game even gets a good chunk of its content, but eh, their loss.
My reply echoes Sem's above. couldn't say it better. and I highly respect others opinions on the subject, but I will say that not all games will meet the same objectives or goals. At this point i have no desire to even go back to WoW. I'll stick with this and LotRO until they make a better SW based game.
In spite of all those who trump wow as "the game", I personally lost my desire for it a long time ago, and despise what it's become now (even with many of its advantageous features, learned through years of refining their game).
Im staying. But i would still support server moves. they really need to push for that. even paid ones.
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I guess some people really just need something to whine about. guess it validates their life?
I work on large scale networks for a living...they need downtime for maintenance. most MMO's probably don't budget enough for the scale of networks that would allow enough redundancy to work on the network at any time.
even with Blizzards huge network, they have to drop things on occasion. most other companies have to rely on maintenance periods to get things done (which means everyone else)
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Immortal spec....I know, I'm the underdog....but hell, I still have fun and contribute alot to the team actually surprised at the lack of Immortals posting here. they're all over the place elsewhere in the forum.
But, on that note, Full Venge. Couple of points in odd places, but I like the build. one of my guildees is already running immortal on his, so i stick to my DPS. which I love.
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I'm 9/10 NiM myself (raid in 2 hours, hopefully Soa tonight for 10/10), so I know where you're coming from. Current content is ridiculously easy, but hey, the point of these tests wasn't to allow us to kill things we couldn't before. Pursuit of knowledge, nothing more. Can't "waste" time if you enjoy doing it.
As far as we can tell, there's no threat deterioration in-game. However, from experience, I know that there are a lot of NPC abilities/effects that reset threat, either globally or for a particular target. We'll do some more focus testing on it, however, it shouldn't be hard to demonstrate one way or another.
the other thing I love about posts like this is it proves you dont need graphs or meters to play a game. some simply testing with a controlled group of people nets just enough results to do what you need to do...or just walk away happy that you got a bit more info about the game
When is jugg dps going to be not just viable, but effective?
in Guardian / Juggernaut
Posted · Edited by Elyx
I love all that raw data and timed tests you threw in there. GJ man...I wonder if i list all the extra accessories my car came with that it would make it faster then your car. Or perhaps we'd need to hit the local track and do a 1/4 mile to be sure.
Yeah...I think ill wait for the 1/4 mile results. good luck with all those accessories your spamming up there