Elyx
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If you're min/maxing like my guild (10/10 nightmare on farm) does you don't bring a jugg to dps over a marauder simply cause of bloodthirst or a sniper cause of the raidshield etc.
So there are two options to make it more attractive to bring a jugg dps in a raid for those who min/max (mainly top guilds),
Make jugg more atractive.
Make others less atractive.
The big question is....
...do you really need to?
I've also seen guilds run NM with Jugg DPS and make it as well. Not saying anything whatsoever about your guild, but simply pointing out that you may be bringing a shotgun to a knife fight. just because you prefer overkill doesn't mean that you need it.
LotRO dealt with this allot. people who would sideline certain class/spec combos when other guilds were breezing the same content with these supposed 'inferior' specs. Nothing wrong with optimizing, but it doesn't mean a class is broke because it doesn't fit your "optimization".
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the cool floaty numbers can be deceiving. people tend to attribute DSP to big numbers, so Rage can look better then your just watching little yellow things fly out on your screen.
there's not solid data yet OP, so do what you enjoy. I run Venge, and love it. Smash isn't regular like it is in Rage, but your single target skills hit like trucks, and smash can be beneficial if you learn your radius and use it wisely (it's free in a venge spec, why not?)
But Bio stated that every DPS spec should be within a fe percent of each other. so until a way of testing come out, play what you like.
FYI..the few timed tests I've seen people actually put the time out to do, show Venge Juggs pretty high up on the DPS charts, higher then some of the "pure" dps classes. but this is timed data, not factual testing. but still, it's far better then anecdotal experience.
comparing in PvP is not a good test either...Rage is very much set up to have an advantage in PvP over Venge. Ther eal test is in the Op.
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I agree with the posters. I love how my jugg works. I did the same thing you did...started on repub side, liked the mechanics of the knight, but there was something missing in the feel and play. tried out a jugg on a whim, and fell in love.
Every hit feels like your mercilessly pounding the enemy. Very powerful in feel, from the easy swing of our sunder strike to the awesome spinning effect of Shatter. pound, pound, pound, then you scream...awesome!
i ran with a maurader friend last night, and yes...the maurader seems much more the flashy class then the jugg. both are great animation wise, but my friend seemed like a whirling spinning lightsaber thing, whereas i was rhythmically pounding away with a 20 ton heavy thing.
I prefer the pounding jugg, but if you like the flashy idea, then go maurader. mechanically they're about 75% similar, so it's not a huge tradeoff to switch over.
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I guess I need to gear up Vette and see how she performs.
Though with that said, I don't have a whole lot of downtime with Quinn. Assuming I don't die, his heals usually take care of me well enough I don't have to do a lot of hatred channeling after a fight.
On this topic, is there any reason that I can't simply equip Quinn and Vette in the same gear? That is, just strip Quinn down when I don't need him and put all of his gear onto Vette?
make sure you read my post above. on your other question, yes you can switch gear back and forth. their stats needs are almost identical. But honestly, I'd go with Quinn. if you want tips on using him to his strengths, holler. i got him fine tuned
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Vette.
Quinn won't heal you enough to stop downtime from happening, can't handle his own aggro, and makes fights take forever. He's good at first, but he becomes very useless late game.
False. Im a full Venge build, Full DPS geared (str over endurance when i can) and regularly use Quinn. he has the capacity to offtank an elite long enough for me to down a silver and a few normals, and keep us both alive. And I'm not level cap yet either, so no rakata gear to outlevel the mobs in hashing on. these are all on level mobs (or one below at the most).
On normal pulls, I almost never have to stop and heal. downtime is NONE. If you have downtime with Quinn, then you are either not gearing him correctly, or aren't playing to his strengths. And this isn't a bad thing....I've found often that most people adapt to a certain playstyle with their chosen companions and are comfortable with that.
On a side note. leveling a new Jugg, and using solely Vette. And there is a NOTICEABLE difference in downtime with Vette. but only in the mid-20's, so this could change as I level.
NOTE: Could everyone who's posting please list their spec as well? far too often i read into these threads, where people are telling me they never need heals, and i find out that they are immortal specced with defense gear up the arse. PLEASE list your spec...It's fine if your immortal, or venge, or rage, or whatever. but the OP is asking about DPS specs, so it's important to know if your set up for tanking or squishy DPS.
But for the OP: I roll with Quinn. im sure pierce could work. but sounds like for your playsyle Quinn may work better. i'd suggest a mix of crit and surge. Can't give you his stats now (at work), but for me i keep it basic...if the cunning is an improvement over the old piece, i upgrade it. Haven't focused on either solely, and hes a healing machine.
Ran a heroic area with a maurader friend of mine yesterday with 1 quinn's out....our health didn't even dip. ran Aithiss the other day with my younger Jugg and 2 other melee (jugg tank and assassin), with the tanks Quinn healing...went pretty darned smooth. Seemed like they were experienced players as well though, that can make a difference.
But Quinn's healing not keeping up? hardly. he's not not a astronaut, but he can sure fly if he needs to
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Nice post OP! and moving very fast.
Thanks for the info. interesting stuff too, always enjoyed knowing more about the mechanics (I supposed that's what drives most min/maxing....the dig for more details.)
I would love to get more information on the DR you mention..plus there may be other possibilities not yet investigated that may be worth testing, such as threat deterioration (haven't read the original thread yet, not sure if that was covered).
Keep up the good work guys!
Note: on the topic of "hardcore" vs. "other stuff". I'm an other stuff guy. Love this game because they really do have a more full beginning and middle game process. Doesn't mean we can't have endgame, and doesn't stop people from wanting to know. As a matter of fact, I think that the less a company releases about their mechanics, the more it motivates die hard RE and theorycrafters to tinker.
Which IMO is a good thing. I love the information about the range changes to threat. so I can stop dry humping the boss on my jugg and back up a few feet for better threat on my taunts. good spot to throw in a Scream as well. Makes me glad we have a few 10m skills in our toolbox.
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All this theoretical mumbo jumbo is a waste of time.
No one in this thread has even posted REAL NUMBERS to show any deficiency from the jugg side. Those who are posting about mauraders having higher DPS should just stop. Unless you have data to back it up.
And the Pure/Vs. hybrid idea is as old as time. Isn't even worth arguing, except to say that once dual specs hit, pures WILL be at a disadvantage. period. dual spec kills class specialization. At that point, I feel that pure classes SHOULD have a slight (read slight) advantage in straight up DPS. But it should be based on skill (mauraders vs BH as an example).
However, at this point, anyone who says that mauraders/snipers do more damage then juggs need to post numbers or close their trap. your wasting precious oxygen that should go to more fully thinking individuals
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There was a huge thread about this in the knight forums too. Sad thing is, when the male skin wears a normal chestpiece and a pair of legs that are "robe-like" you don't experience the same issue.
well, if our male models didn't look like they had BALLOONS back there, clipping wouldn't be an issue. but the whole model design is a diff issue entirely (but still needs to be looked at)
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Really?, lol
Juggernaut dps is pretty much useless in pve. They need to really buff the vengeance tree and nerf the rage tree a little. because as it is the only useful warrior in pve is a mara and not even by much.
I totally agree with the bounty hunter thing tho i have a 50 jugg dps in full rakata and just recently got my merc in pretty much full rakata and i can honestly say my merc more then doubles the dps of my warrior and can *********** heal itself. my warrior seems useful in pvp as rage spec or immortal but still they have to make them kind of useful for pve as dps.
Also thanks alot for the post about `1.2 mate it gives me hopes that maybe just maybe this game got a shot. especially if it brings some of those people that quit because they hit 50 and did nothing.
you need to show the data. all the timed tests I've seen so far place Vengance juggs higher up on the food chain for DPS. Your quip about their DPS sucking is either incorrect, or it's user error. I agree that BH needs an adjustment, but comparing a class that is pretty much faceshmash DPS ( I play one as well) to one that is challenging to play, and then basing your comment purely on personal anecdotal experience, is hardly evidence.
But I think we are still in agreement. BH could use some balance, and vengance could use some polish. but 2x damage? hardly.
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Am I the only one concerned about those new abilities coming with 1.2?
Dont we have enough CDS to manage already?
I am concerned about it as well. I think most people are simply excited about the news (They really WERE looking at it!!) and they are trying to get their 2 cents in on the discussion.
I personally think that most of the Jugg/knight issues can be resolved with current skills in existence. very easily
Threat can be buffed either in the stance (30% extra or whatever it takes), or they can simply add an extra threat component to certain abilites, and tag it on an existing talent in the immortal tree.
Damage can be upped very easily for Immortals by increasing inherent Str gain, or just buffing overall damage by X% while in soresu. It wouldn't take leaps and bounds to fix. but the class is definitely already full enough with skills...we don't need any more TYVM.
And I like the feel of the class, So I don't want any of our current skills (for the most part) changed. I would like to see some polishing...increasing the DoT's by a bit in vengance...give Rage more flexibility in its damage production (not proc humping as much as it does), etc. Make Ravage a non-interruptable skill as baseline (you could give Rage an additional perk for the talent it would lose...perhaps make it an instance attack for Rage like immortal has for choke).
But pleeeeaase...no more new skills. just polish the ones we got, and for heaven's sake, buff immortals damage and mitigation. I don't want us to be OP...I just want to see jugg's able to tank HM's without sweating the enrage timers.
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I dont PvP at all. the design of PvP in this game lends towards easy high end items, which skews the nature of this "poll" so far fewer people PvP in this game for the enjoyment, more PvP simply because it's an easy way to get gear.
I don't PvP in this game solely for that reason
And i dislike games that try to mix the genres.
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This bothers me. I guess they wanted to keep the characters locked to their class look, but bah.
There's no proper robes for Marauder! If I actually get decent Sentinel robes (and they get black robes in addition to brown robes, for some reason) they turn into marauder robot armor, rather than stay as robes.
Its frustrating!
There are some out there, you just need to hunt them down...they are definitely not the norm. the more common ones i find have the hood down. just bought a red one for my new Jugg off the standard GMT
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Why are we even comparing the games? what a waste of time. I personally love ToR, and coudl care less about going back to WoW (though I quit it in early wrath..played other quality games out there).
But when I first started WoW, I loved it. as it progressively changed, I liked some aspects of what they did, and hated others. It eventually killed itself IMO because it simply grew away from what I enjoyed in a game. ToR still has much of what I enjoy in a game. My hope is that as it progresses, it doesn't lose those aspects.
Most of the posters here that are dynamically one sided (either direction, take your pic) are either tunnel-visioning on purpose, or woefully ignorant of both games. you can't limit your vision to only your preference, and expect others to accept it.
WoW early game is dead. they decided long ago that their focus is going to be on PvP and end game progression. Naturally, those who played and enjoyed WoW will see those things as good. WoW's popularity was as much a product of their capability to develop addicting aspects to a game as anything involving their approach to design.
Having said that, there's plenty of games out there that are developed on different criteria. A game does not need to emulate WoW to be successful. I think the problem with ToR is that is emulates allot of WoW style mechanics, making it very easy for those who are attuned to WoW (perhaps its the only MMO they've played), to make the comparison.
WoW isn't horrible. But it simply isn't the game i remember. ToR has picked up on many of the mechanical developments that MMO's have done in the past, but still has rough edges to smooth out. I think it will do quite well
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I'm not a huge fan of the whole harcore/casual argument. it's almost older then MMO's themselves. a small group of the populace thinks far too much of themselves. the bulk of the populace fails to understand how the edge game content drives innovation in a genre. they are both critical elements to the game folks!
On this conversation, the game does need progressive content...but it doesn't need to be cutting edge. I've played plenty of successful games that put out challenging end game content that didn't require edge of your seat min/maxing. there certainly is a place for that, but it doesn't have to be every game.
I don't fit into either of the categories people are arguing about. I did my share of raiding in various games. Don't have any need for it. but I love challenging content. and I enjoy challenging myself through the entire process of the game, from lvl 1 to lvl whatever.
I don't see any reason why they shouldn't balance dev time. the problem (and the reason) so many casuals dis the "upper edge content" is that games like WoW have decided to ignore the middle content and make the end game THE game.
Swtor has been great in the fact that its early and mid game is very rich and rewarding. they really shouldn't stop that! there's a huge player base that loves that material (me included). but end game content drives innovation (much of it beneficial...not ALL, but much).
the part about this argument that tends to get on peoples nerves (on both sides) is the completely childish idea that one aspect of the community is more important then the other. Now...a Dev has to make a decision based on lots of parameters, and unfortunately, player population is a big part of that. but they also recognize that without progression (whether it's flexible progression or hardlined progression),that the game doesn't mature.
Flip sides of the same coin friends! lets not shoot ourselves in the foot. we need progression at end game, AND rich early and mid game content, as well as a fully fleshed out end game that doesn't force anyone into a mold (raiding vs. PvP vs. crafting). there's absolutely no reason why they can proportion dev time for each.
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Great posts here guys. Thanks as i have recently hooked up with a guild who has already have two viable tanks. So i been ask to go dps. Good thing i am sythweaver and can make two Rakkata pieces so look forward to trying dps.
Gonna love it man
so far its my favorite class to DPS with, bar none. Good to hear your guild is intelligent enough to bring along a real DPS class (hehehe).Make us proud! For the Empire!
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the new video that came out says they have teams working on fixes around the clock....no they dont...for the past few updates i have seen nothing for us juggys..we need fixing but yet they ignor us..starting to make me stop paying until its fixed..
that is a pretty rude...and inaccurate statement. Your assuming that because they haven't implemented the 'fixes' you want on our class, that they are lying about working on the game. In General. they never specified that they were working "around the clock" on our CLASS.
There's far more to the game then just our class, and it isn't even in a really bad spot. it needs some love, thats about it. but they've been adding more to the game and polishing it more then any other team I've played with.
I dont' disagree that we need changes. And I also eagerly scan every update to see if they're there. But considering that I'm used to other MMO's taht will wait 3-6 months inbetween updates, and often still not fix the issues with my class...the fact that they're doign updates almost every week, if not every few weeks, is pretty good in my book
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While it's certainly not the standard, you will find the ignorant pushing a jugg to tank. But on the whole, I've gotten warm responses most the times I've ran. Having a guild is also a good choice as well. Im in a smaller relaxed guild, and we will run with whatever and whoever.
But also keep in mind the general perception of tanking classes, no matter which MMO you play. Even if yo like DPS...you did pick a TANK class. For the most part...tanking classes can be rare, so often you may be the only one in the group that even HAS a tanking spec/stance available. So you may end up in situations where you sitting there waiting for a tank...and 10-15m pass by...usually at that point ill say "nevermind guys, ill tank it." I just want to get the run done.
so even if you prefer DPS, it would behoove you to get used to how your class tanks. remaining ignorant of it wont help you...you'll probably end up in situations like above where you will tank on your own choice. But it doesn't mean you should always have to, and for the most part, I've been free to pick on my own in most runs.
A good tip: if your responding to query's in chat, don't reply with "I'm a juggernaut, ill run that instance with you". far too often people will just assume that your going to tank. Instead, reply with "I'm DPS, ill run that instance with you." then at least they understand your coming in as DPS...whether they agree with it or not.
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I just pretend that when fighting we actually never hit with the blade. The opponent dodge and parry untill we wear down his defenses and ultimately land the killing blow with the blade. And hiltstrike is an attack that we augment with the force.
I like that
got my new hilt strike image. -
What I love about tanking as a Jugg is exactly what others have stated they hate, the complexity of it. If you want the definition of a boring class, try playing a Merc healer. You basically spam 2-3 abilities (heals) over and over and over and...you get the picture. On my Jugg tank I have to virtually use all of my abilities. Some people consider that "a pain in the butt," but I consider it a fun challenge that keeps me on my toes.
Just my $2 credits
Couldn't have said it better myself. I've actually rolled another jugg because the other classes just don't feel as engaging anymore. Every time im on my SC or Inq or BH, I keep thinking (man...wish I had leap at this point....could really use a quick attack like force scream...keep reaching for my push)
I was playing my BH last night, and while they certainly do good damage, They just feel slower in executing that damage compared to my Vengeance Jugg. so many of my Jugg's abilities are instant, fast execution skills. Really enjoy the class.
Note: Forgot to mention in my original reply, that Bio also stated they are working on improving the Jugg/Guard's threat and mitigation. No news yet, but hoping its just enough to bring them up to par, without ruining the feel of the class.
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Hello.
I just leveled an inquisitor to 12 and turned him into an assassin Because I love tanking and love the idea of using the force to tank. However, I didnt fully actualize that you could not respec from assassin to sorcerer, and I would like to have a sorcerer too. But I dont want to play the inquisitor story twice when there are so many other great stories out there. The warrior included.
So now im thinking of letting the SW be my tank and the inquisitor be my backup healer.
So.... What is in like to tank as a Juggernaut? are they more AOE or single target threat? Are the mechanics fun? challenging? boring?
How does force leap (or whatever its really called) change the game as far as a closer goes?
it's amazingly awesome. It's by far my favorite gap closer in the game, aside from push (which resets your leap skill). the difference of course is that your smack dab in the middle of the pack of mobs. takes a bit of mob management and planning at times, but nothing any worse then planning who to CC with your sorc
Also, for those of you who have played the Sorcerer at higher levels, what is that like? How fun is pvp? pve?
How is healing as a sorcerer? Is it similar to the whack a mole game in wow?
only played sage (mirror) to low 30's. very EZ mode to me...actually puts me to sleep. high level play may be different. but I prefer the more engaging aspects of my Jugg.
Does the SW endgame gear have the ability to look more mystic in incorporating cloaks and robes, or is it obvious to everyone your just a hulking rage machine?
sort of. the stock warrior gear does tend to get more...juggernauty...as you gain levels. but there's enough different moddable gear selections that you can pretty much look like almost anything. And subbing in a piece of light or medium armor wont kill you...armor isn't as great as people think for damage reduction in this game, so 1 ot 2 pieces of lighter armor won't break the bank.
Im new to SWTOR and, in the past, ive only been interested in tanks. But I am interested in having both a SW and an inquisitor for story and RP reasons. Im just not sure which one I want to be my tank.
based on current performance, the Inq has an easier time tanking. but the Jugg can tank all endgame content atm. so don't let that hold you back. just keep in mind that Juggs have been verified by bio as being slightly behind other tanks in damage and mitigation. so the Jugg IMO tops the Inq in play, from DPS to tank, but you will have to work your jugg harder to get similar results from tanking.
DPS is not worry. Juggs slaughter. but its a playstyle that will require parctice to get down. But it is BY FAR my favorite class
Read my answers in yellow
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yeah all of the classes heal fine. most of the healing preference is biased on personal experience. the Devs have stated that they all have played each healer in every role though all the content in the game, and all healer have no issues healing current game content when played well. so pick the one you like the most
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You talk in circles. We dont need a heal, learn to spec, and learn to play. We have awesome survivablity, awesome utility, and average dps. But we can turn the tide in any battle if we play well and we can whittle away at almost any opponent and out last them.
I would take a 5%-10% increase to dmg across the board in immortality but other than that we are fine.
enphasis mine. Just wanted to point out that it was average DPS in immortal. think you meant that, figured id quantify it tho. the DPS specs seem to be doing pretty well, based on the data I've seen so far.
other then that, I agree with you, especially on the damage buff for immortal. other then that, all we need is a bit of polishing. the class is great
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Know what you mean OP. although I love the plot development with every class, sometimes the response choices leave me saying, "what?" like when i get light side points for lying out like a dog, but if i tell the truth...i get dark side points. even when the result isn't a dark option!
My favorite whacky one is actually on repub side. A generic quest (all classes) in the senate building. outside is a girl who asks you to steal information from a droid in side to help the rebellion. innocent girl,lost her father, senate lying to hide it, yada yada. so you go in and grab said info from the robot...
...and someon catches you and demands that you return it, saying that interrupting the democratic process is some kinda horrible. your light side choice is to actually agree with him, and hand over bogus information (deceiving the girl), and then lying to her about it (yeah...my jedi lied to get light points). the darkside option was to refuse the guy and get the information on the crooked senate member....um,yeah...OK.
I actually felt guilty handing the bogus information over to her! she was so happy....
so yeah...my first sith I wanted to play the "support the empire" idea rather then just total random chaotic whatever...and you dont even get light side for that. it ends up being an odd mix, and you can't get past light I or dark I to save your life.
Personally, i figured supporting the empire with your decisions is a dark path...but i guess the only way to be "dark" is to be some horrid blood thirsty psycho. Darth Vader does not come across as that in the movies if you ask me....
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Quinn works great. just a few things to do/adjust:
get him good gear. That means keep him up with you. there are times that ill give him the gear if it boils down to a him or me choice). his heals scale well with decent gear.
watch your range. if your leaping from maximum range, he can (and will) resort to fighting over healing. not sure if his heals have less range then his Dps skills, but for some reason he just picks shooting over healing at max range. take a few extra steps in first. or use the hotkey idea in the next paragraph.
Watch LoS. even if you can see him, there's still a possibility that ground interruptions that force him to move around them can break up his healing. an easy solution to this is have one of his heal hotkeyed...if he bugs or starts shooting, hit the hotkey. this can often break him out of whatever funk hes in and he starts healing again. Other then that, just watch out for ground breaking clutter. make sure you have a decen't path to the group.
His heals also scale well. as levels have gone on, i worry less and less about my health as he just turns into a healing machine.
Plus, don't forget that even with quinn, the jugg/mar is still a very skill and gear dependent class. you can't just go EZ mode because you have said healer...your still paying attention to skill selection, using CD's when necessary, and calculating your pulls. it's just easier to do that and enjoy the class with quinn
got my new hilt strike image.
When is jugg dps going to be not just viable, but effective?
in Guardian / Juggernaut
Posted
I agree...It's actually sorta funny to watch these threads. without a shred of real evidence, people spam their opinions like they're notes from above. I think it, therefore it is fact...
...what a bunch of tripe. at least Bananaface's argument made sense...though i don't agree with him, but its their approach and they stick with it. But everyone else here is spouting tirades and opinions like they have some magical damage meter that no one else has
FYI folks...your about as clueless as everyone else. only Bio knows at this point. And they say that the dps SPECS are very close.
If your guild is sidelining your jugg, then you need to find another guild. if you think Jugg DPS is sub-par, then by all means...
SHOW ME THE DATA. I'd like to see some spreadsheets or dps meter results please. until then, keep the trap clamped. your wasting precious oxygen.