Elyx
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Play what you like. why is it only 42? is it because your not sure you really like it?
You may want to re-evaluate your reasons for picking the class. Try out a few others (you have the time...no hurries), and see if any of the others appeal to you. I started on a Shadow (balance spec), then tried a Jugg on sith side, and loved it. Currently leveling my shadow and a mirror Assassin slowly, but they're not my favorite class.
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the Title should probably be renamed "So....Who is a die hard FOTM Player?"
I was worried that the post had grown so big, I Didn't think that SW had so many poor players that they would reroll the second they heard rumors that a class got "buffed". but At least there's some decent and varied discussions here.
Don't have a mara yet, don't plan on rerolling. Currently enjoying my crop of Jugg's, Pt's, mercs, and Assassin (full tank don't PvP tyvm.). If I roll a mara it will only be because im unlocking Chiss and I plan on rerolling some sith classes...and though Jugg is my favorite currently leveling 3 atm, so I may end up trying a Mara for variablility. but I doubt it will beat any of my 3 juggs to 50.
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funny how everyone has ignores vanguards... a tactics vanguard has stupid AoE and can sustain it far better then anyone else. Even thinking a sent/mara is even in the running for AoE shows you have no idea how the class works.
Vanguards as a DPS are overlooked in general, when it comes to tactics they are one of the more involved classes to play like a sent, nut at the same time they have one of the poorest gearsets out there, you basically have to get new enhancements for every piece. However when you look at a tactics vanguard with proper gear they have 0 wasted itemization you need 0 accuracy so you can put everything into upping damage.
Most players do not see troopers/bounty hunters as melee but when played right they can do nearly as much damage in melee as sentinels without having to be in melee 100% of the time.
I think your misrepresenting Vanguards/PT's there. They certainly have AoE, but they have limits just like any other class. they're biggest AoE has a minute CD. It certainly is powerful, but it's VERY burst in comparison with smash on a Mara/Jugg. it may do higher damage when it hits, but a properly telented smash is on a 12 sec CD. I can get off 6 smash's in the same amount of time. and if your specced rage, the smash is an autocrit when it happens, and has severely increased damage over other attacks. without real DPS numbers, it's going to be hard to say one over the other.
As to the other AoE skills the classes have, they pretty much share similarities. the PT has a frontal cone fire attack. again, high damage, but on a CD. The Mara/Jugg equivalent does less damage, but is infinitely spammable (given rage), and cheap. PT's have an AoE fire spread, again on a longish CD. they key is how much does the damage add up overall.
I could say that based on experience, the PT can put out the AoE easier...but thats due to the harsh requirements to set up the "smash burst" in the rage tree. But until people start posting their personal log file results, it will be hard to tell.
OP: each class has decent AoE capabilities. At this point, I don't think any specific one is king over the other so much that you should pick solely on that. As an example, in PvP Smash damage is king due to it's higher set up and burst. but in PvE, over time the sustained damage smooths out, and it doesn't really mark much higher then the other classes.
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Interesting information. I know they're out there, but it's odd that they're the least played. I have 2 of them in their mid 30's, and the only thing i can say about them is their very smooth and easy to play.
I wonder if they just don't fit the standard "tank" archetype. even though most of their attacks are 10m or less, many of their attacks are "ranged" style attacks. But the consular/assassin fit that mold as well. the Jugg is the only one that's "pure" melee. But Even though Both the Sin and the PT use a solid measure of "not melee" melee attacks, the PT is the one that feels like a ranged class (perhaps its the fact that your using a pistol vs. a saber that it makes a difference.
Perhaps it's the jedi/sith thing. PT/Van happen to be the only tank that doesn't heft a lightsaber. My main Is a Jugg. Love the class. But im rolling both a PT and a Sin to tank with. They both feel about equal in skill use and execution, though from different perspectives.
either way, it's obvious it's not a performance thing, so it's got to be a playsyle/function thing. Or like some people said...it was so easy to level and get all their gear they sidelined them now to play alts. all I know is that comparing all 3, the PT is the easiest to level as a tank/DPS. having your healer (a good healer, and a romantic option for us guys) right of the bat made most the game EZ mode. I have to work my Jugg and Asy early on due to lack of heals. It makes the class interesting and challenging. the PT feels EZ mode early on as a result. Perhaps players got bored with the class as a result of this and tried others?
Ironically, the only PT tank we had in our guild is leveling a sorc, and he decided that it's going to be his main now. Just seems odd to me that a class that is so smooth to play and has really no negatives has such a low population.
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You and some others are not reading this correctly:
Species unlocks require Legacy level 5 AND 1.5 million credits. Not one or the other... both. OR level 50 of that species.
He clarified in a post a few above yours. He knows it.
ON the subject, I think that the just didn't want it a high requirement, but they wanted it to only work for a person who put at least some time into the class.
and some people don't have the level per se...just hit lvl 12 on my 50, and she's been there awhile. think i was level 9 when I hit 50...so if someone is leveling fast or lean, they could only be at 5 or a few above it by the time they hit 50
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Yup. They all do it. they all are getting some adjustements in 1.2 that will even the playing field out a bit as well.
And I agree, sorc/sage is probably easiest "transition". but I would encourage you to try out the others... I found the mercenary mechanic of heat buildup very interesting...gives you a totally different approach to healing then the typical "mana bar" approach. Coming from a shaman/druid/priest perspective, I really enjoyed the mechanic difference. My sage was familiar, but that sort of turned into "boring" really quickly (yeah, done that got the t-shirt)
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I am currently leveling both of these classes and I am having trouble with deciding which one to take to 50 first since I wanna do ops after 50 eventually. I hear melee have it really rough in the boss fights and ranged is the way to go. I enjoy both classes but the Knight story seems so much better and the gear looks cooler. Just wanted some opinions from some people who have been there. Any help would be appreciated.
either ones fine. ultimately, ranged is more popular whether they make things easier or not (they often do unfortunately)
Plus you also have to look at your alternative spec other then DPS. Even if you don't want to play it, chances are you eventually will. given that, would you rather tank or heal? both are fun in this game.
and just about every top end guild That I know of running Ops has guards/Juggs for both tanking and DPS. so they are viable, you just often have to get past the mentality that easier is better.
Guardians are more difficult to play however. Not from a melee perspective, but from a technical perspective. they have a higher learning curve. and I've seen many peeps get frustrated when they don't grasp it right away. It takes a bit of time, as it takes some levels for the Guardian class to fully come alive. But it's also the most enjoyable class I've played in the game so far. Many of the others (including my shadow and sage) feel boring compared to my Guard and my Jugg (rolling a second jugg atm, so that makes 3 of the same class).
But it's not everyone's cup of tea. try both.
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Anyways, if I don't solve my leveling issues on my main character I won't be rolling an alt. -sigh- Without being able to find groups for heroics, I have run out of quests.
Still, feel free to keep opinions coming. Consular seems to be getting a little more love.
Hit a wall? What level are you at?
space missions may be a viable inbetween. may take a bit of cash to pick up the mods for the ship to do the higher level ones, but the experience you can get from them helps a ton.
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Kinda did the same thing myself. Rolled a Juggernaut to tank with and hated it. Leveled a Darkness Assassin next and loved Tanking again. Juggernaut switched to Vengeance and loved my Juggernaut again.
Then I rolled an Agent and fell in love with Operative Healing.
Three 50s now, and a level 32 Merc. Merc is my ranged dps character, but I'm having the hardest time connecting with it. I think I prefer the melee dps of Vengeance.
I did this too. Started with a shadow consular, went jugg, stayed with jugg. played with BH for a bit, got a PT to 31, started a merc, preferred the merc.
Each game will have classes that feel and play different. going off an idea in your head is the best place to start, but i think it's important to not "kick" yourself if it's not what you like. As someone stated above....this isn't a race, your not going to be behind if you get to 20 or 30 and decide it's not your favorite class. Roll something else.
And I agree with the other posters about FOTM. Don't play something because peeps say it's going to be OP...play what you want. the Knight/Jugg is a great class, but they have a higher learning curve. But they do Excellent DPS and are great tanks (just not as easy as the others). the stories behind each class are different enough that they all can be fun to play on that alone.
It's all about having fun!
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I don't think that Bio is actually offering this as an improved general access thing at all. I really thing that this is a minor addition to:
1) expanding the neutral AH. not necessarily for "general" use, but simply making it easier to cross-trade.
2) give casuals and serious Alt'ers an easier time with crafting. right now it's almost detrimental to have to fly over to Nar shadaa to trade across (my syntheaver is on repub side...my artificer is on empire...armstech on repub...etc).
I certainly agree it's not a GTN for everyone, but It seem like that's not their goal. In light of that, I agree with the issue of cost. simply way to expensive for what your getting. I'd love to have one on my ship (use neutral AH almost more then i use the regular one) but that that cost...ill level a toon up to 18 on each side and camp them at nar shadaa TYVM
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I second Mystys comments. Jugg's do great DPS. If you browse the forum enough, and filter out all the ignorant comments, you'll find timed tests done by end game teams playing HM's that show Juggs being quite competitive.
Most the "Juggs do poor DPS" are based solely on anecdotal comments. i.e. opinion rarely supported with any facts at all.
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And also, while not ruining the suprise...
Stock up on Light force wielding armor for lvl 30-ish. it will pay off
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Marauder's ALREADY do significantly more DPS than a DPS Jugg. Especially when specced Annihilation AND in the hands of a skilled player. In 1.2, they are simply bringing all three specs in line with each other so that they are all viable. Much testing remains to be done though.
As for Jugg, Jugg tanks will always remain viable. So if you wanna tank, go Jugg. End of story.
It's Vengeance that's getting nerfed was my understanding.
DPS Juggs have always kept up with Mara's. the testing I've seen pre-patch shows this. If they're is a disparity, then it's small enough that there's no reason you shouldn't pick jugg over mara, unless you simply enjoy the playstyle more.
The patch notes are up. If you actually play the Jugg AC then you'll know whether they're "nerfs" or not.
And they're not. Rage PvP took a small hit. Vengance got a small buff, Immortal got a bit of a buff and a bit of a nerf...they really seem to be about in the same place. Jugg's are probably one of the least impacted AC's at the moment, aside from Assassin/Consulars.
Play what you want OP. Don't be FoTM. if you don't know which one you want to play, do both. seriously...I can do the intro to level 10 in about 2 hours or less. it's not too hard to get another one up, and you can try them both out head to head to see which one you like the most.
also keep in mind that while the jugg can (and do) tank, the mara will always be DPS. this may sway your decision one way or the other. juggs are great now, and they are getting better, for the most part, in 1.2
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I like how the opening post is so full of crapp and false information. As far as sustain damage output is concerned rage is undoubtly nerf (there are a lot of other buffs though but that mainly concerns PvP).
As of marauders, people needs to face the truth :
- The only bonus rage guardians have comparing to a marauder is the 6% strength boost after 1.2 and that's it.
Aside from that strength bonus, our filler points are probably worse than the marauders and they still have way better survivability through their defensive cooldowns (and a second lightsaber which adds to their damage output on non force attacks).
IMO, the only reasons you might want a rage jugg instead of a marauder in PvP (since it is useless for PvE now) are the taunts, which are great but that still makes me sad. Now, you can also use other specs with the rage tree that are good but juggs won't be feared for their DPS anymore.
Who is useless in PvE? your calling the Op out on false information and you post an ignorant rant like Juggs Are useless in PvE? no offense friend, but that really smacks of the pot calling the kettle black...
If anything PvE Juggs got a mild boost. Not what we really wanted, but it's a boost all the same. the biggest hit is the redistribution of talents that make PvP harder. Add in the mandatory crash for extra resolve, and PvP took a dive, not PvE.
Perhaps you should really go back and read the patch notes....
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Ive read a ton of theories on the subject. The one i feel is closest to the truth is:
There is a small subset of gamers that have unrealistic expectations of a game. No matter what game they play, they tend to idolize aspects of their favorite MMO or MMO's, and congeal it into a large fantasy mass in their head they label as "the standard". this could include more then One MMO (various aspects of many), or it could be only one MMO that sort of defined the genre for them. Whatever it is, they form this unrealistic idea of how a game should simply be.
this group of people are also hardline forum goers. Plus, since they're dissatisfied, it increases the volume of posts they post. either way, they post allot more then your typical player.
they also have an unrealistic viewpoint of their opinion and how many other people actually share it. It's the basic idea of hanging around a group of people who share similar beliefs, and then use that as your sample size of the population to say "you and everyone else", when it's really a small subset of people, who have gathered to together to commiserate. and in this commiseration, they think they are the "Majority".
so this group of people who think they are the "majority", who are very vocal, and have a preconceived notion of how MMO's should "be", spend the first few months of every MMO that comes out critically analyzing it with there rose colored glasses, find eventually that it doesn't meet their needs for the next "perfect MMO high", and then leave.
the evidence out here is pretty profound. I've been reading "I'm quitting...whos with me" threads since the game began, yet the player base has been steadily growing, defying their predictions. the griping slows down on the forums because they are honestly not satisfied with the game, and leave. They will usually vocalize this leaving far in advance though, becuase they honestly believe that they are part of the real majority (see the commiserate comment above).
i saw this happen with rift, Aion, Conan (though this one earned a decent amount of the grief early on...but they fixed allot too), LotRO, WoW, DAoC...just about every game I've played since late evercrack days has had this subset of players. and as each game comes out with a new feature, or does something slightly different that is better then the others, these players add it to their list of the qualities of the "perfect MMO", and the bar grows every higher for their fantasy world.
now, amidst the deterioration of the MMO perfectionists, there are honest players with honest expectations of a game, who give decent feeback and have real concerns about game balance. so not everyone who gripes is the MMO Perfectionist. But for your average player who's simply browsing the forums, it can be really difficult to separate the two groups.
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What the heck are you spending money on? Once I decided I was done buying silly fluffy stuff. I spend 2 weeks doing just the Bel dailies every morning before work with a friend, 45 mins it takes us to do all 11 there.
I am now over 2 million credits.
JJ
This. In 1.5 hours of dailies (solely bel's and ilum) I average 150k in creds from quest rewards and selling vendor trash (this is a big part, in case peeps are leaving bodies behind with junk on them).
10 days, and you have 1.5 million creds...and you have half the daily commendations you need to buy a sweet lvl 50 purple implant. It's a choice.
the week prior to this, I had 800k creds after dailies, and chose to craft like a madman. im down to 230k now. So I choose...craft like crazy, or save up and unlock a legendary? personally, im in saving mode atm. I want a chiss jedi, and I don't feel like leveling one up to 50 atm.
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See above and thanks
Yes and No. My synthweaver on repub side is my main synth. she can craft both sith patterns and jedi patterns, as well as many of the universal ones. The problem isn't the patters, it's the fact that Bio set up each side to have different skins for the same armor. As an example, the force initiates vest (iirc...pretty sure it's that skin, can't check tho as I'm at work) is a neutral colored robe-ish thing with an off white adornment that runs in a V shape down the chest...when it's worn by a jedi.
When it's worn by a sith it becomes a dark, silky vest with a hood. Black, with mildly glowing red enhancements. Very attractive looking on the sith. The repub version is....OK.
So far all the models I've seen and used are like that. Jedi versions tend towards netural colors, often with bulky looking robes and squared shoulders. the sith versions are usually darker color, with either no shoulders, or harsh, angular shoulders.
So if you want a proliferation of dark/black patterns, you may need to go empire side. didn't make me happy....I like repub side, but hated how the gear looked on my toon. still play both, just wish they had options rather then the "I'm a monastic monk living deep in the mountains" look.
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You're a very angry little man...
He's a troll...disregard him. Best way to piss off a troll is to pretend he doesn't exist.
On the subject...It's a very good thing. It's a thing that every MMO does. Whether they do it right away or do it in a tiered fashion (as WoW currently does), all MMO's do it. SWtOR is doing what everyone else does. Hopefully they'll make it standard. It's great for the MMO community.
1) raiders make money on items that are taking up space.
2) raiders no longer are "forced" to craft to get their "uber items". they can buy off the crafter. Gives them more time to raid. selling these items for ungodly amounts of creds means they don't have to do dailies, which gives them more time to....raid. I have no clue why any sane raider WOULDN'T want to sell these things on the AH
3) Crafters benefit as they can sell completed items on the AH. they don't need to raid to get high end craft items, and raiders don't need to craft to get the same.
4) the economy has more creds floating on it at a player level. money sinks suck money out of the economy...this circulates it among players more effectively.
5)it helps balance out a crafting system that seriously needed help. up to this point crafting with those "special" items didn't even net you the best gear i the game. you still only got that from raiding. So moving these special crafting items to BoE doesn't impact that end game gear AT ALL.
6) 1.2 is allowing crafting to make the best items in the game (that will still need mods from gear that still only drops in Raids).
and last but not least...It's going to happen, no matter who whines
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THAT is a PvP discussion. I certainly support my PvP bretheren in their concerns, but plz stop posting that as some giant nerf for the "class" in general. PvP certainly is affected, but PvE is not.
Again, PvP is only part of the game. please don't misrepresent the issue, your only hurting your stance.
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So I currently have a level 16 Juggernaut and i am speccing into rage. I also have a level 12 sniper moving into marks.
What i am trying to figure out are what the general opinions of these two classes as dpsers.
Both are great DPS. But both also require allot of work too. enough that some people don't want to bother. Me? I love my Jugg, and have a hard time playing anything else (they all seem boring after playing my jugg).
Haven't played Op yet, but the 3 that i play with in my guild say they're just as complex as my Jugg (one of thems the GM, and he runs a 50 jugg as well as his Op).
so Gratz! both are great classes, and both do excellent DPS.
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After I get my legacy on my Slinger I'm going to be playing my Jugg, so I was thinking of making him a Tank/DPS specced Jugg. As far as builds go here, I'm TOTALLY lost. Can someone show me what a basic Tank/DPS build would look like (which trees do I climb and how far up the trees)? I want good survivability, but decent DPS as well (more so damage then tanking, but enough tanking to take hits easily and live, using healer if necessary, if that makes sense). Any help would be appreciated!
Also, at what level do Juggs get "good" at PvP? I'm coming from a ranged class, on which I did really well even at like level 11. My fall back was Powertech in case the Jugg doesn't work out, but when do Juggs begin to get good at PvP?
Thanks!
tough question to answer Sabre. you got allot of variables in there, q big mixture of tanking and DPS wants. One of the main problems with Juggs is as you delve deeper into the tanking tree, you really start to see your DPS slow down.
the mid 30's is when the specs really start to shine. That's about where Vengeance gets impale (main damage ability) with its bleeds, rage fills out their heavy hitting AoE abilities, and immortal really starts to see their mitigation go up...as well as getting their crowning Cc abilities.
problem is, that's also the point that you have to decide which direction you want to go, as you don't have enough talent points to be able to spec that deep into 2 trees. So it's one or the other.
From the perspective of your desires, I'd say vengeance is a good alternative. It has very good PvE dps, and many damage mitigation skills as well. Plus, if you don't spec all the way into that tree, you can put the extra points into immortal, to get more survivability. the vengeance/immortal hybrid is actually a very popular pre-hardmode PvE tanking spec.
Here's an example of a DPS hybrid (very basic, just threw it together):
http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101fRMMu0MZIrMoMuzd.1
more DPS oriented, but takes advantage of many of the defensive talents early in the immortal tree. But it is focused around the use of the Shien form, so you'd lose a bunch of DPS by switching to Soresu for tanking.
You could drop impale and Shien form, and put extra points into immortal to get high enough to use backhand and Force grip, which would increase your control skills dramatically. you would lose the extra DPS from Shien and impale though, which at that point it may just be better to work your way up to crushing blow in the immortal tree. but now were getting into a more traditional tanking spec, which isn't know for it's high damage.
Your real best bet is to go full Vengeance, and take all the defensive talents you can in that tree. Then you can rely on your backup to heal you, and your taunts to keep aggro. I find that when i play full Vengance, as long as the other DPS didn't get a leg up on me due to burst damage, I can use a combination of taunts and sheer DPS to keep the attention of the mob I'm hitting.
Here's a "defensive" build i use in solo PvE:
http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101fMhZIGMRMudd0R.1
All i did was take a few points off of the classic vengeance spec and move them into defensive talents. the accuracy reduction and defensive bonus help towards mitigating damage while your still in your DPS form. and your going to do enough damage to keep up for the most part with other DPS. throw your taunts in on CD, and you should be OK.
keep in mind that this is a "defensive DPS" spec, not a tanking spec with extra DPS. Juggs simply don't have that option atm. The minute you switch out of Shien form, you lose a ton of DPS via rage loss as well as the simply lack of the extra damage in form (12% extra damage to be precise). You will be able to switch over to Soresu, but in all honesty (I run often with a few dps in my guild doing heroics), I find it easier to just stay in Shien form and use the taunts to offset other dps who may pull aggro.
and one last caveat (for those who may misinterpret my direction with this advice). This is NOT a tanking spec. this is a damage spec that subs out a few dps skills for a few well placed and advantageous mitigation skills.
now that all thats said and done...don't forget that you have some pretty powerful DPS companions available. You could easily run a traditional immortal build, as an example, and gear up vette through the teeth. I've seen her plow through silvers faster then I could at times. Just because you are a tank doesn't mean you can't kill fast.
Edit: Sry, forgot your question on PvP. read up on Schwarzwald's thread for a great discussion on tanky PvP. It's probably your best choice if you want all 3 worlds. but your PvE DPS will suck b @ll$.
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What makes me laugh a bit is the companion you are most likely to max out first has a different class than yours. Ex. Tank will have a DPS or healer with them.
So you'll pretty much need a tons of gift to get a bonus relevant to your class, marauder excepted (class works well with anything).
Also, slightly confused : does EACH character unlocks 1 bonus for the whole account, or you get one bonus account wide? Or each character unlock their own bonus?
I think you may be confusing how the companions get affection. they get it from 2 general sources. gifts (you got that one), and then the decisions you make during quest cut scenes with NPC's. Your class doesn't impact that. my jugg doesn't have problems with Jaesa's affection because he's a warrior...he has issues because he chooses light side choices...and she gains rep from dark side choices for the most part.
But I've been gaining rep with vette from day one, even though she's a ranged DPS and I'm a tank. because im choosing light side choices that she prefers. although it's not always light side choices. Especially when it involves slaves...you need to choose carefully. Vette has some sensitivities about slave trading (wont give you details...it's fun to discover).
I actually like that aspect of the game. really makes your companions feel that much more real. the fact that I have to take their "feelings" into account when making decisions.
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Yeah...the biggest issue with the OP is that Every Companion has choices you have to make, and they may not like those choices. I'm currently having a hard time getting my rep up with jaesa on my light sith. so i will probably miss out on the buff I get from her.
Ultimately, most people will have one or more companions they wont mesh with, hence they wont get the buff from that companion.
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more worry
MOst of the change impact PvP solely. the impact to PvE is still hotly debated (i.e. there are people on both sides). but the impact to PvP is pretty straightforward.
1) talent changes make it difficult for most PvP Players to run the specs they are used to.
2) the passive stun on leap (the one sole gap closer for PvP Jugg's) adds resolve to the opponent, essentially shooting yourself in the foot for wanting to get closer to that sorc that just unloaded lighting zapper on you.
While I personally am not a PvP player, I can easily see how the changes impact Pvp negatively. But just remember that its mostly PvP impacting. PvE actuall benefits from many of the changes, though many are still on the fence about the tanking adjustements. i think were were for the most part just expecting a bit more. It's obvious from their general changes (looking at more then just my jugg) that they want healing in general, and AoE abilities controlled more and used less. Just about every class got some nerf in the form of healing or AoE reduction.
Dps Guardian or Dps Sage?
in Combat Styles
Posted
I love this.
you spam a rumor without any specific data whatsoever (ignorant ranting at best), and even when people post real life examples of out DPS-ing other classes, you pick the only comment in this thread that is more basal then yours and use it as an example?
Laughable at best Pal. Try Harder.
There have been numerous examples of people in NM and HM Ops pulling and outpacing the other DPS classes on their Juggs. You can read them if you like. I don't feel like searching, but the evidence is there if you even took the time to seriously read posts in these forums.
Once 1.2 hits, we'll probably start to get some real data as a comparison. Guess we'll finally see. But so far, most of the naysayers don't bring a shred of proof. Just like you and stephen. You rely on undocumented opinions to fuel your own undocumented opinions.