[Jedi Shadow has very few melee abilities]

I always saw a melee class as someone who fought at melee range. its not like you step back a few feet to use your ranged skills. even though they aren't physical attacks, you do execute them from melee range for the most part. I like the combination as well...you really start to miss those ranged attacks on a guard when the ranged mob is just out of melee range. on my shadow i just smack it with a rock. very handy.

[Anyone tried balance?]

been using it since day one. only lvl 20 atm, but i prefer the balance tree. i hear that Infiltration has more effective tools early on, but i have yet to run into issues with balance. Using the lizard man as my companion. keep his weapons and armor up to date, and hes a great offtank and additional dps

 

tip: his weapon choice is picky. you wont find many tech blades at all early on, unless you are an armstech, but weapon vendors sell passable ones. the extra dps helps.

[Consular tanking... O.o does it really work?]

Most of this is for baux, who was concerned about AoE threat.

 

well, My newb tank is only 20 so far. I love the shadow playstyle though! also have plenty of experience in tanking other MMO's, some for many years.

 

I've also tanked every FP up to hammer effectively. early ones were in balance spec, but I figure ill be respeccing to kinetic once i get closer to 30 and the runs get tougher to manage without kinetic specific talents.

 

It helps out a ton early on to get used to target switching, as stated above. hit mob A with Double strike. throw project at Mob B, hit mob A again, chuck rocks at mob C, etc. use of force breach liberally (if CC isn't nearby). throw stun on a mob to reduce the incoming damage. learn how to line up opponents so you knock them back in a line when you use wave.

 

I've had little issues at these levels with holding aggro (much easier on my SC then on my guard), even in AoE situations...unless DD are focus firing on an off target. chose ranged to CC, and pull back melee into packs. be aware...this is one of the biggest issues. know when that range attacker breaks CC, and be prepared to throw a ranged attack at him to hold aggro long enough for dps to re-CC. be aware when a mob focus fires the healer. the healer may be able to handle it, but that's a few extra seconds that they aren't healing YOU. I'd rather yank aggro and have a few extra seconds of the mob running back to me and give the healer a few extra seconds to heal themselves, or me.

 

I think the practice of getting used to cycling targets with your attacks is one of the biggest. AoE's are nice, but in a game where AoE's break CC (no WoW EZ mode here), it's better to select the targets you want to hit and smack em a few times with your beat stick. if CC is far enough away, you can use force breach. wave can be temperamental...if you just spam it, you usually end up knocking mobs in all directions. practice lining it up so you can knock the melee back into the ranged attackers, as an example, or vice versa. circle the mobs so you have them pinned between you and a wall before using it. they'll blow back into the wall, and the extra few seconds it takes them to get up save you health and the healer power.

 

if its a heavy fight, or you know your healer is weak out of the gate, use your medpacks early on...the sooner you pop one, the sooner it goes off CD so you can use it again. one medpack can easily be 1/3 to 1/2 of your health bar, which can save the healer a ton of power use over a longer fight.

[Dual-Spec: The Necessary (VERY Necessary) Evil]

Where exaclty are you looking? Go back through the thread. Most people want this for flipping between PvP and PvE.

 

I also saw a good deal of people discussing the base merits solely on PvE. perhaps we were both seeing one side of that coin. i will admit that I saw the PvPers as well, I just don't think in general they are the majority.

 

 

Honestly? You truly, honestly believe that it somehow adds to the enjoyment of the gamers who are active PvPers and raiders to have to grind cash? I find that hard to believe. If so, we obviously have very different ideas about what is fun.

 

I didn't say that paying a price was fun. But i also said that i like the no respec option. paying a price IMO is a decent middle ground. Id prefer it the other way. but im flexible.

 

Also, what are you talking about as far as a bandaid? Are you talking about the healer/tank issue? Well, sure it does help in that respect, so sounds like a decent bandaid to me. If you are talking about a bandaid to help with the respec costs that active players would incur...well that's not a bandaid, its a fix.

 

it's a bandaid because the idea of using a dual spec is a poor fix to a bigger problem in class design IMO. And that bandaid can cause problems as much as solve them. But it's and easy fix which is why its often used. doesn't mean its the best.

 

I guess I am just not understanding what you are saying here, please elaborate.

 

it was my original statement before i went off on a tangent. both side already have quasi solutions in the game, they just don't like them. the re-roll camp still has their exclusivity...you can respec within a specialty, but if you want to, say, heal with your consular instead of tank, you need to reroll a consular and specialize in sage. So IMO there are already solutions in game for this...it's the nature of the solution that's in arguement.

 

 

Here is where I think the divide is happening. Like I said earlier in this thread, a large part of this comes from people who do not raid and PvP. If you had done much PvP in this game you would know that you cannot use your companions in any of the instanced PvP. As far as RvR who knows?

 

I was raiding in BC (WoW) as a tank and healer back when dual spec didn't exist, tanks did squat for damage, and costs were prohibitive for the time. I wont say that I enjoyed the cost, but I didn't mind it in the sense that I was willing to accept the price.

 

 

Don't start with that crap. As stated above your idea has nothing to do with me or the countless other raiders who PvP. It would not help us in the slightest. You are blatantly incorrect. Even if you WERE right about companions in PvP, how in the hell would that make me selfish? I am not the one wanting to impose a grind on other players when it is not anything that would involve me anyway.

 

yeah, i retract that last portion of the statement. busy at work and didn't think about that last comment, my apologies.

 

but aside from that, you would need to explain how dual spec would help you in PvP. True, companions aren't used in PvP. but then again, dual spec doesn't help you in PvP. it allows you to switch over from a PvP spec to a PvE spec. And in my edit, i did say that my solution would not help that specific case. but again, there's a solution already in game.

 

 

You obviously have very little experience with any sort of raid environment or pvp environment.

 

incorrect. just because i disagree with you does not mean that i have no experience in raiding. yoru connotating raiding or PvP experience with a personal preference choice. totally different concepts. you can currently, in game, respec after PvP to run a PvE setting. I understand your reason for the simplification of the process, but i simply disagree. and my raiding experience has nothing to do with that, neither does yours.

 

Historically hybrid specs have almost ALWAYS been inferior to pure specs in regards to ANY role, whether it be tanking, dps or support. In every game that allows dual speccing, pure classes still thrive. I have no idea where you are getting your ideas, but they are completely groundless and without any sort of factual basis. Hell, look at Rift, where you can be up to 6 classes. Pure classes are still the norm for just about anything.

 

current WoW statistics prove otherwise. can't say about rift, couldn't hold my attention long enough. i do remember playing my cleric up to 17 or so, and that was a hybrid class. But currently in WoW, hybrids are the norm and preferred. read ghostcrawlers last blog about the current state of rogues if you don't believe me. I agree with you on this part...traditionally, hybrids were always underpowered compared to pure classes. But traditionally, MMO's didn't have dual spec and you had to pay dearly for your respec options. if were talking tradition...

 

Currently in WoW (this game so far seems to be heavily modeled on their design), hybrids are at a distinct advantage to pure classes.

 

I think you mean well, but you have very little idea what you are talking about. You have ideas, but they are based on groundless rhetoric instead of real facts.

 

I appreciate your earnestness, and I apologize for my earlier quip. but I don't see my points as groundless rhetoric. we don't agree on a process in game. we are on opposite sides of that pole. that fact that you don't agree with me is not grounds to dismiss my ideas or points as frivolous, because i don't see yours the same way. i understand the logic behind peoples desire to have conveniences like dual spec. i just don't agree.

 

I've raided end game content in a few games, for extended periods of time. and the ones I enjoyed the most designed world mechanics around class design, not class design around world mechanics. and IMO, dual spec is a poor fix for a bad balance between world design and class design.

[Dual-Spec: The Necessary (VERY Necessary) Evil]

I didn't ignore the other side of the argument Axx, and I don't' see the majority wanting it for PvP. I see both camps (the PvP'ers and PvE'ers) as wanting dual spec for a variety of reasons. What you see as a pain in the ***** I see as an EZ mode option...and my comment about it being a null argument still stands. you will still have to re-roll, and you will still have respec options, whether dual spec exists or not.

 

And My option would resolve your issue with PvP. spec a PvP spec, and pick a companion that complements your weaknesses. does your DPS suffer because you chose PvP talents? pick a DPS companion..perhaps one with a healing subset, and pump up their DPS skills. or perhaps their healing skills if you need that backup support. I fail to see why you don't' think that would solve your problem. My idea was a way we could bridge the gap between the two camps, and it seems to do that effectively. It's not the answer to end all answers, but I'm at least providing reasonable alternatives, which it seems the two extreme camps do not like.

 

Edit: The only thing that my idea doesn't resolve is those that want to be able to PvP and then immediately hop into a PvE FP and be top DPS. But It bears repeating that my idea bridge both camps. I personally am perfectly happy with NOT having a respec option in the game, but i'm willing to try and tread middle ground. it seems you are reacting far more selfishly in these regards.

 

I still stand on the idea that dual spec is a bandaid...and a poor one at that. keep in mind that it causes as many issues as it solves. one example is the "pure class deficit" with dual spec in existence, pure classes will be pushed to extinction because they are inferior in an environment where a hybrid can dps as well as them in a dps spec, then switch to a heal spec in the blnk of an eye. the pure class does not have that option, and they would be chosen less because of that. I currently see that occurring in other active MMO's as we speak.

[Dual-Spec: The Necessary (VERY Necessary) Evil]

I think that the whole argument currently is without merit. Even if they did add dual spec, they wont get rid of specialization, so if you are a shadow consular (tank/dps) and want to heal (sage!) gratz! even with dual spec you WILL HAVE TO REROLL. all you guys arguing about the torture of being forced to reroll you will still have to. But on the other side, we already have respecs in game, so arguing against them is a moot point...unless your simply stating your personal opinion on the matter, which I respect highly. dual spec is simply an EZ mode version of respeccing. its a reflection of the McDonalds age we live in. Not IMO a good thing.

 

But the healing/tank imbalance needs to be addressed. it is a thorn in the side of MMO's. always has been. But they don't need to give us dual spec to accomplish it. That's an EZ mode bandaid. this game has better options and more flexibility then previous MMO's did. A great example would be to allow greater customization of your companions, along with more gear options to further customize them. Like actually getting drops for my lizard dude...I hate having to go to a vendor and buy him weapons because mobs don't drop tech blades. why in the world does a primitive hunter race use only high end tech gadgets for weapons! But I digress...I'm currently running with lizard-man on my Shadow Consular. He's a great tank, and does enough DPS that he can finish off weak/normal mobs on his own, or even hold off an elite long enough for me to finish off the extra mobs and start digging into the elite. But he could use some polishing and a bit more flexibility. more gear options please. Plus...

 

I'm think along the lines of giving companions small talent trees so we can choose different options....like increasing my lizard's dps as an example, with the choice of a few talents if i am rolling a healing spec. or put points in a few tank talents if i need a tank because i rolled a squishy DPS spec. then you could spec as a healer, and still have DPS output in solo play so you aren't feeling behind. Plus, when you join a team for an FP or heroic, the companion disappears, so your not going into an FP as a healer with unbalanced DPS. The trees wouldn't need to be complex either. they could be simply choices...in tier one do I pick a talent that adds to my companions damage reduction, or a talent that increases the damage on his most common attack. simple choices to give us the option of either increasing their base damage output, or their strengths in their secondary roles. Lizard head in this case would have the tank and dps talents to choose from.

 

To me that is a much more effective solution then dual spec that satisfies both side of the argument. it doesn't ruin immersion, allows non DPS classes to keep up with the leveling curve, yet preserves pure DPS classes in group settings who would suffer with a respec option (simply due to the hybrid advantage). opening up options on companions is IMO the better solution to both sides of the equation. and it preserves the RPG factor. It would also allow more flexibility to choose a companion then we currently have. you could choose any of the companions that had a dps option if you need the damage, and then choose their secondary role to compliment your weak points. best of both worlds.

[Best attack spells to use while leveling Sage Healer?]

My Sage is only 15, but I follow a similar trend. i sub in double strike for disturbance when I'm in melee range (just cause tryign to cast while being hit feels dumb), but they're really only fillers for me while i wait for project and the telekenetic throw thingy...those are my two big ones.

 

So I throw, then project, then filler, perhaps a CC, then back to my 2 favs. I think at higher levels talents will make some other skills attractive to throw in the mix, but at our level project and TT are big hitters.

[Questions questions always so many questions]

Do our regular hits ever get stronger? (I can't remember if I ever have bought upgrades for them from trainers...I have every ability the trainers sell up till lvl 20)

 

they do. At various levels, you will be able to purchase "upgrades" to them. You can identify what level your skill is at by looking at the skill in your skills tab {P}, it should list the level, or rank, of the skill in the upper Left(?)...that one is a bit fuzzy. But the rank of the skill isn't the same across all skills...you will get ranks for your skills at different levels, so as long as your hitting your trainer every time you level you should be up to speed with your skills.

 

A note about keybinds (also called hotkeys). set them up in an arrangement that is comfortable for you. I tend to like my keys close and i like my actions keys under my first few fingers, so my most often used skills will rest there. Stuff like that. there's not setup that is "the best" use what works well for you. I've been playing MMO's for so long I have default keys for skill types (builders, finishers, CC, gap closers, etc), and I often will put those kinds of skills there by default, but play around a bit and use what works well for you. believe it or not, but keybind setup can make a huge difference in your ability to play, and thus your enjoyment.

[Hi I just felt like chiming in to say that...]

First off, extremes never help guys, the whole "class is horribly broke" and "class is fine, your the issue" don't work.

 

I think if you started with the JG and that's all you play, you probably wont care one bit. If you play other classes though, you'll noticed the difference. My initial class was a shadow consular. Then I played my JG.

 

The biggest thing I noticed was that my SC had more tools earlier in the game to deal with complex situations. I struggle for keys on my JG that aren't there in tight situations when my SC has the tools within reach.

 

I also notice that my JG has more downtime...when I play him in a similar pace to my SC, he dies. I son't realize that his health is so low until hes down, when in similar sitiuations my SC could just keep going. On the flip side, there's something addicting to leap...I just want to leap into everything perhaps thats my issue. but still...my SC can go full steam often with little downtime, and my JG has more.

 

Of course, my experience is in the 20's...If I trust what the later level guards are telling me, it smooths out later on when you get the talents to fill in. perhaps this class is a late bloomer. Which is OK...But I can empathize with those who are frustrated...in this day and age, with the financial backing that this company has, and the time they took in development, they could have balanced this class out better. the level ranges that are having the issues are critical levels.

 

People aren't going to play a class that's hard to level for the first 30 levels, only to finally smooth out and be EQUAL to other classes post 30. If the guard was an amazing class post 30 compared to others, that would be different. but from what I'm hearing from most forums, the catch up with the other classes at that point, and thats the big issue. You shouldn't have to wait till 30 to be equal to everyone else.

 

Some simple changes are all that's needed. move some of those CC options lower in the trees so their accessible, or make them baseline skills. remove that stupid cast time from the defensive tree. Make blade storm a real cone AOE...spending that much focus on a single target attack? but a cone that stunned a few non-tough mobs would work very well, and give early JG's the edge they need. Stuff like that. The stun types are acceptable...very few classes have stuns that affect anything past a strong mob. but some defensive backup could help.

 

we really need our tanking stance at 10, not 14....I know its a small thing, but it's just weird things like that that make the class seem unbalanced. I take a tanking class, and I don't get to tank right away? I had companions pulling threat off of me in my first Heroic. Yet my SC was tanking and holding AoE threat from level 10 up.

 

Yeah, I know, level 14? small fry. but yet, its these small things that are all adding up to the bigger issue for early level JG's. If my SC can tank end game as well as a JG can, then

why is the JG so unbalance early on?

[Level 35 and seriously considering rerolling a trooper]

This sounds very much like a classic easy/hard class issue.

 

Take one class that is OP, one that is UP. The OP class will be dominated by EZ mode players Who are used to WoW style gameplay. The UP class will be picked up by those who enjoy a serious challenge.

 

The problem is trying to find a balance. In most traditional MMO's, the challenging classes get a payoff in special capabilities that the EZ mode classes do not have. But this method of gaming is rapidly disappearing in a world of mainstream MMO's. Can we really give a challenging class enough of an advantage to offset the difficulty? If we do, those classes often dominate end game once everyone gets their playstyles down. This is the reason why its a fading species.

 

The Big question right now is...is the amount of people who are willing to put up with the current state of said UP class greater then the amount of people who will leave it for other classes? And is the payoff for said UP class worth it? 2 things to keep in mind:

 

1) no matter how much people think the class is fine, if its too difficult to play, then people wont play it, and the Dev's WILL change it. sorry for those who like to feel special. but a class that isn't played is a waste of costly dev time. it will change.

 

2) No class is FINE. There's always room for improvement. However, no class is BROKE currently in this game either. So There's no need for complete overhaul. But were still a brand new game...Most MMO's are still changing, even 4 and 5 years into development. this ones been open for 2 days. lets get a bunch of Sentinels to 50 and play end game and see where the cards lie before saying a class is broke.

 

I think at this point it may help to start putting in specific points of improvement. If you think their survivability is horrid, then what would you change? what would you add to their skills or talent trees to increase this surviviability? just saying its broke doesn't help...and for all those who hae no problems with the class, saying it's fine doesn't work either. NO class is perfect. But I also think we need to give it time too.

[Chill out people, you're not missing much]

It does seem sort of odd that they run into issues on launch, when the beta stress tests held a much greater load. perhaps there's other things going on behind the curtain we don't know about...

 

And I agree...the only thing the really bugs me at this point (and it's rather small) is the name thing. I'd rather skip the lag and crowds if I can, but having all the names i like snatched because someone got access before me. well, I do tend to pick odd names, so i doubt they'll be taken (crosses fingers)