Elyx
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I agree with the above. Even with a DPS spec you'll have little issues with Quinn (and it will go a bit faster).
Immortal + quinn - unstoppable tank. wont go much fastr then your average tank, but will never die.
Vengeance/Rage + quinn - fast and almost unstoppable. have to slow down a bit and work elites, but post mid 30's i don't even bat an eye at them on my vengeance jugg
the real benefit of immortal is you don't pay too heavy a price to use the other companions.And (without spoilers) they all have some great stories to tell as your Jugg plot unfolds. My second Jugg (immortal) is a great deal of fun as i don't feel as locked down to Quinn as I did on my vengeance jugg. Really enjoying helping vette with her....ahem...issues (not going to say it! won't ruin the suprise!)
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If you hadn't noticed, most the variable above involve personal decisions based on hear and playstyle. a.k.a either one is fine.
-Vette's gear is interchangeable with quinn for the most part...helps when you run into situations where you need the extra heals.
-jaesa wears force gear. if you are a synthweaver (or have one), this is a bonus as you can make most of her gear yourself. Jaesa decked out in purples at endgame is a pretty vicious DPS. And if your immortal spec you don't have to worry about her pulling aggro (great practice if you want to tank as well)
- vette is ranged. Jaes is melee. depending on the mob type you may choose one over the other. as an example...on heavy AoE mobs I'd pick vette as she avoids many AoE's by being out of melee range.
-Quinn is simply heals...pure and simple. turns a dps Jugg from a challenge to level and play into a unstoppable "juggernaut" literally.
-On that note: spec makes a big impact on your choices as well. DPS specs (vengance, rage) have much more downtime if they run vette/jaesa. But an immortal build works ebst with those two.
And thats aside from anyone you run with. optimally, you'll want a few companions geared to take advantage of pending the situation. like on my vengeance jugg I run quinn, but i switch his gear over to vette and run her if i pick up a healing player when im running heroics. so my priority is those two as they share gear. But Jaesa's gear is getting there. I am also leveling a second Jugg solely as immortal, and have been using vette 100% of the time. Starting to cycle Jaes in now that I have her on him.
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here's a pretty common PvE spec:
http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101cMZIGMRMudd0RZG.1
theres a few points that are flexible. Accuracy is one example, depending on gear you may not need it. Rampage is questionable...many currently do not use it so i didn't include it in the spec. But after 1.2 it will be a viable talent to take. And some people will pick lash out in the immortal tree over Ravager in the rage tree. I don't find myself rage starved for most the content in running atm tho, so i prefer the reduced CD on choke.
On that subject, keep in mind that much of this will change with 1.2. I forsee myself putting more points into rage tree as an example, since decimate is moving over there.
Edit: Note that this is solely for PvE. PvP would have a different spec entirely.
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...Good stuff as always...
/rantoff
Thanks for bringing some balanced logic to the thread Drac. Something your team is good at and I'm glad your there testing stuff
What's sad is that even though were all around 5% of each other, people will still choose to be ignorant about things.
I know that many people cry for DPS meters. Unfortunately, even in games with DPS meters I always found people that simply denied the truth and chose to live with ignorance.
On topic tho, how are the tests going with the PTR? you mentioned you know someone running a few...any solid data yet? any news of differences possibly resulting from the changes? My jugg is only 15 atm on PTR, so dont really have any personal info to provide.
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So True. It's really become the mold. this MMO has done an excellent job of making the leveling and alt process enjoyable, but there will still always be a time where the traditional leveling curve stops, and you have to look at alternatives.
A good Dev team will provide alternatives that meet a variety of needs. Bio has done a pretty good job of it so far. while legendary an take work at level cap, its also rewarding to play alts as well...they add to your legendary experience as they level. the unlocks you get support alts in a big way. Crafting is complex and involved, with decent rewards (that will actually be worth it come patch).
And they're weakest point, end game progressive content, is being expanded. Were getting (essentially) a new tier of raid materials (and hopefully higher tier rewards are forthcoming). Rather then putting all their eggs in one basket, they have done their best to try and spread the options out.
I love many of the ides and things they are choosing to do with their game. but it still boils down to the current trend of "the game doesn't stop at level cap". If it did, people would pay for a month or two of play and quit.
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I roll both. Currently my Empire Characters get more action simply due to current guild affiliation. There are things I like on both sides:
Republic:
1) Intuitively I prefer the "good guys". speaking figuratively, as most my empire toons are light morally. but the Idea of the Republic being the Good guys has existed from day one when leia's ship was being chased across the huge screen in the theater when I first saw SW IV. That image hasn't left yet.
2) I like consular animations better then the inquisitor.
3) I like the planet progression better.
4) Even though you can go light side on empire, it's still not as nice as the repub light side. But the empire light side has its perks below.
Empire:
1) I like Warrior and BH animations better then their counterparts.
2) though light side on Empire is still "darker" in certain ways then Repub side, it gives you a totally different depth to your light side character. Your the light fighting the darkness in a totally different way (subversive, im a plant kind of thing). very effective foundation for RP and character development
3) Gear skins for the most part are better on empire side (my opinion only).
4) Dromund Kaas is my favorite planet of all time. Yes, it's dark, but it has such a visceral feel to it, and I'm from Seattle...I'm used to rain (just had a 2.5 week non stop session a bit ago). compared to Dromund Kaas, Coruscant is boring. And the Sith temple is all kinds of creepy.
yeah, lots of little stuff. But I don't think you can base it solely on PvP numbers. I think the biggest difference is the total package. I like many things about Republic, but overall the Empire side just seems more polished in many ways. from the character interactions to the gear looks to the combat animations and even style. Add to that the odd nature of people who like actually play bad (look at the success of Grand Theft Auto....) and there ya go.
not that everyone who plays empire wants to be a horrible person
don't get me wrong...I play my empire toons as the few people on the Empire side who want to do good things...they are just disillusioned with the Republic side (look at all the issues the senate creates all for the sake of "good". So they don't align with the republic (which they feel is just as bad as the Empire), but they don't agree with how the Empire is doing it either. So they decided to do as much as they can from behind enemy lines.So there are peeps who are on Empire that are light side...but the attraction to play someone bad is still a major player in many of those decisions as well.
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I guess we'll ultimately find out in a week or so once numbers filter in. the hilarity is the OP proclaiming victory before the information is out. Methinks the OP had some "uber" statement he made as a "prophecy" early on, and is now attempting in vain hope to act like it "came true" before the real numbers are out in hopes that he can save a shred of that useless thing that most people refer to as an "ego".
I'm not going to say one way or the other, because frankly my personal satisfaction with myself does not rely on looking like I am something I am not. But I for one am remaining with the game. I've been playing MMO's for close to 10 years, been on and off the progression raiding scene at various times in my life...just about seen and done most of it. And I like this game.
I'm glad that the OP can see that this game isn't what he wants. the humor arises that he thinks he can know what I want. you sir need to take a reality check and step back from your virtual fantasy world. sounds like you depend on it a bit too much.
Either that or your simply a troll. I wonder about that...but I'll at least give you the respect of assuming your being honest about yourself.
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Blizzard is a smart company. The sheer fact that they expanded the MMO market by tens of thousands proves that. Blizzard understood that to have fun with an appearance system you can not tie it down with restrictions based on stats. Bioware does not understand this. I have no idea why after copying so much from World of Warcraft they had to go and create such a crappy "innovative" appearance system like their orange mod gear (which is not as innovative as people think as it has been done is other MMOs).
Actually, blizzard has far from the best customization setup in the genre. they copied most of their stuff from other games. I do agree with you tho, I just wished that Blizz had done it earlier...many MMO's had them even back when WoW was a wee little vanilla baby.
One of the best (IMO) to date is LotRO's system. even with the Free accounts, you start with 3 fully customizable "sets" that you can switch on the fly. the gear is placed in the set, and then the item can be stored anywhere, or just thrown away/sold. the item will remain in your set until you remove it or replace it with another item. IIRC the item does have to be wearable as a class (no plate for cloth classes), and it has to be bound to your account (or will bind when you put it in your custom tabs). But once it's in the set, you can do whatever with it. The set is independent of the actual item
Note: you are not "modding" any of you current gear, these are completely different gear sets (they show up as tabs) in your character window, and switchable on the fly. They do not impact your current gear whatsoever, when you switch it is literally a "skin" change.
In addition, most of the gear in the game can be changed via "ink" you can buy off the AH or craft (if your a scholar). almost unlimited combos, especially as the base color of the original gear impacts it's new color. The one thing that Bio IS doing that I wish LotRO would emulate is the color "matching" option with your chestpiece, very nice move Bio.
The gear sets are switchable on the fly, and you can hotkey them as well. Easily the best customization system I've seen to date. Blizzard could take a few notes from them, as could Bio. there is absolutely NO reason why your ability to change the look of your gear should be limited.
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this
most viable specs come within 5% dps of each other, so just choose what you feel is more fun
..qft..
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Yeah, it was quite anti-climatic for me.
I'm glad it's a baseline ability...I probably wouldn't buy it if it cost me skill points.
I think they should just give us another simple CD, and buff it for Immortal. something along the lines of:
Making Sonic barrier baseline. give it a 30 Sec CD. change the immortal talent to add a HoT to the baseline ability (so you shield and get a small amount of health back over the duration or for 9 sec or so), AND to also reduce the CD of Sonic barrier every time you effectively retaliate. A few retaliations and the CD is back up again. the HoT would balance out the increased CD (since immortals currently get it once every 9 seconds), and they could adjust the HoT to compensate the immortal for the time variance.
IMO the shield would be far better then simply "another" DR skill. Plus it would give us a unique thing that other tanks don't get...our own little sor/sage bubble. Not a complete idea there (pulled it out of my heiny while i was reading), but it's a start. and it would be tons better then the weird thing that is Enraged Defense.
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Don't get me wrong, I'm 100% behind Juggs getting a self heal, but not one that's going to completely demolish our resource pool and shut down our outgoing damage at the same time.
I think that's my biggest gripe about it too. The cost overall just seems to steep. give me another CD, or give me a basic ability that costs X rage, and then ticks over time. I can deal with that. but it just seems far to gimmicky for my taste. If I'm taking a hit on my resources, then I don't want a % of whatever damage i take back...I want a real HoT. i want something i can hit and let it do its work.
If we accidentally pull aggro in a fight, then this ability is lost the second the tank pulls it back. If were playing solo, then hitting it at the end of a fight (when you may have excess rage to burn) is wasted. you actually have to hit it when you are in the situation, and NEEDING the resources to do damage. when you actually have excess resources, its not useable.
I think they're trying to force us to make a choice with our resources. But overall I don't see this as a valid comparative. It's almost like they want to give us a damage reduction, but they don't want it to look like one. Cmon guys..were Ok with "just another" DR ability. this new thing seems very weird and complicated.
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Bingo..
You want dps, be a dps class. Not a watered down one in a juggy
Do you also believe that the earth is flat too? I can probably direct you to a site that has more information on how the earth really is flat then there is info in these forums on Jugg DPS.
come out of the dark ages plz. MMO companies nowadays have an amazing ability to develop classes that can do both! I know...it's amazing...
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I've seen these arguments come and go OP. I've seen people try to theorycraft the idea into the ground. The simply truth at this time is there is NO prevailing evidence that Jugg DPS is behind the other DPS classes.
Bio Stated that all DPS specs should be within 5% of each other. 99% of the stuff coming out on the forums is simple ignorance. there's nothing wrong with saying that a Maurader FEELS like more DPS...but until the numbers come out, it's all fluff.
I've seen just as many Jugg's top their raids as I've seen Mauraders. Play what you want OP...but remember, pulling max DPS from a Jugg isn't a walk in the park (similar for maurader too actually, but still the point...) many of my other classes are fairly easy compared to my Jugg. But I wouldn't enjoy playing anything else.
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yes the poster did state that the build was indeed immortal but wasnt a tank build it was using immortal for DPS.
My main uses Darkness (tank spec) for dps i know its kinda odd but im looking for a straight up tank build and its pro/cons in pvp
You looked at it, works for me. On the whole, however, you'll notice that he doesn't deviate much from a basic Tanking build. A few skills are switched out for more PvP oriented use, but they aren't specifically DPS skills at all.
Take as an example this basic PvE tanking spec below: (pulled from the sticky at the top)
http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101dMGcubrouRZhGM.1
There's only really a few small skill choice differences in that and the one Schwartz has in his thread. the skills he subs out are really general PvP skills, not necessarily DPS skills. Now...the skills schwartz drops out of the immortal tree are real tanking skills...but only from a mitigation standpoint.
From a PvP perspective, often control abilities trump sheer mitigation (not always though). like schwartz dropped Blade Barricade and shield spec, but picked up Intimidation and Unleashed. loss of general mitigation (shield and base defense proc) but reduced the CD and the rage cost on key control abilities for the immortal spec.
Edit: also note that he did not take any skills in the immortal tree that require Soresu. The idea is that you won't lose anything by cycling between Soresu and Shii-Cho. But on the flipside, the talent you would gain from that is a rage reduction on retaliate....not really a better option in PvP then reducing the CD on your CC abilities.
Other then the PvP control abilities, there's not much else different except perhaps the points in accuracy. don't need that, so they're dropped into Ravager instead, again reducing the CD of prime control abilities (especially for the immortal, as their force choke is also instant).
so in reality, the "DPS" immortal is really a "PvP" immortal. The extra DPS increase (if any) would come from damage from the control abilities that are coming a few seconds faster (a.k.a not much).
the true DPS from an immortal probably comes from gear and playstyle. I don't play immortal on my jugg, but from the people that do play immortal, I've heard the greatest issue is damage capability. the other tank classes simply produce more damage. You have a few more control abilities that are unique to the immortal class (a.k.a you'll have it whether your pimped up in DPS gear or maxed out in tank gear.)
But Schwartz thread has a ton of info in it about playing as an immortal jugg...I highly suggest you read it because it discusses many tactics that you wont get from a talent spec.
TL : DR - the "DPS spec is pretty much a standard "PvP" spec. no changes in that spec are specifically focused on DPS as much as PvP in general.
Edited to revise a few terms, misleading
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Look approximately 5 threads down from this one (at time of writing). its a thread about PvP Immortal builds, and has a great discussion revolving around it.
In case you can't find it, here's a hint: it has "PvP Immortal build" in the title.
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Im pretty satisfied with the changes. Not everything I would have hoped for, but I do take into account that my vision is limited by what I know.
And I don't PvP. so the resolve thing is a moot point from my perspective. it's actually a great bonus on PvE, simply because it's 2 less seconds that initial mob is hitting me. less damage? sounds good!
If someone was asking me if it was the end all of patches...no. But it's a solid step in the right direction, with nothing really wrong.
I would have liked a bit more added to our DoT's. but if our damage is currently good now (so far looks like it is), then adding more to the DoT's would give us too much DPS. so jury's out on that one. they shuffled few skills...didn't like how they moved our smash damage increase to the rage tree and gave us more damage mitigation as talents. I personally believe that giving us some better baseline mitigation would be better.
But we did get some of that. only it's got a pretty heavy price atm. So not sure if the price of admission is worth it. but it's definitely not a nerf, so my only concern about that is it's viability. If you give someone a great skill, but with a high price, it doesn't matter how great the skill is, people wont use it if the price is too high.
But again, nothing but some small shifts and adjustments, and the other items are actual buffs (even if indirect and/or expensive resource-wise).so I'm happy. My vengeance jugg will still be rabidly played along with my second one I'm leveling (I've been resisting vengeance on this one so i can try leveling as immortal..so far smooth. no worse then leveling as vengeance, but I am using a DPS companion vs. the healer.)
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Read the sticky for juggs at the top of the forum. If your impatient scroll with your mouse wheel until the words "Leveling as Vengeance – The Preferred way to level to 30" show up reeaaal big. read that part.
Can't believe i just wrote up a quick and dirty guide on how to read a quick and dirty guide....
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My first Jugg was Vengance. Rolled with Quinn when I got him, never looked back.
My second jugg is solely Immortal. Been leveling with Vette. so far it's not been bad. just hit Alderaan. you do run into times where even with a tank spec you take damage that vette can't heal. I find Biotech to be a nice balancer. endless use med pack on level very easily make up the difference.
Quinn is saved for nasty fights when my immortal would take too much damage. but honestly, haven't even used him. defensive CD's last long enough to take most elites down.
But in spite of this, I do see more downtime on my immortal with Vette then my Vengance did with quinn. Healer companions are sorta OP IMO. but the damage isn't something that I can't get past. running vengance with no heals sucks. but you don't see too much of a difference until your mid 30's in the specs.
Tank = Vette
DPS = Quinn
Honestly, you could probably run with a rabbit as your companion, and fight al your battles with a toothpick. wouldn't be easy, or enjoyable tho. the combinations above make the process smooth enough that you can enjoy the class.
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No I didnt miss it , but it sure seems to be different opinions, perceptions or player-L2read-issues in that particular department. And since the issue comes up every time theres a discussion . Maybeit would help us moving forward if there was a big yelloq post sauing "No you are supposed to be able to perform according to AC.description" or "Sorry guys, typo - Its actually says TANK"
This "juggs arent supposed to do dps because they are a taaaank class" starts to get old real fast and putting that issue to rest once and for all could only move the discussion forward IMO.
spelling = just woke up
I think that was his point (though he may not have communicated it in the best way). Bio has stated that all DPS specs are supposed to be within 5% of each other.
The confusion is not really confusion. It's ignorance. in spite of what Bio has said, In spite of the COMPLETE LACK OF REAL DATA to prove otherwise, people have been maintaining an immense level of ignorance about the whole issue. While being ignorant isn't a bad thing, it's the sheer fact that they are acting like it's FACT. That's whats causing the confusion.
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Love my Jugg
Rolling another one on the same server
Juggs are great for PvE. I don't play PvP so i can't comment on that. don't care too. But Im going to roll another once 1.2 hits on a species I prefer.
best class in the game IMO. have yet to find on that I enjoy more.
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The fact that Id most likely be filling a dps role for my group, however the word on the streets is (especially after 1.2 hits) that marauders are THE dps class to play and bring raid wide utility.
The forums are filled with mis-information and anecdotal opinionated judgements....and no real data. After close to 10 years in MMO's, I have found that opinions tend to very closely follow the phrase "opinions are like a#$ holes, everyone has one and they usually stink."
Even with the patch on the horizon, I have yet to see anyone use the new combat logs to parse Jugg/Maurader DPS. if there they're, then I applaud them, and want to see more. Until then. it's all opinion man. not a shred of evidence to back it up.
Also keep in mind that 90% of the DPS threads that discuss the issue are talking solely about PvP...which is a totally different environment then PvE.
And the reductions on the jugg side are impacting Rage spec the most...which happens to be the LEAST played spec in PvE. I firmly support my PvP brethren in their fight to maintain solidity from that perspective. But I get impatient when the opinions fly for PvE without solid evidence. I've seen plenty of PvE situations where Jugg's outpaced mauraders. this is not proof...it's merely anecdotal evidence with points out that Juggs do good DPS.
A good Jugg player will keep up with a good maurader any day of the week. There is far too much "skill" involved to say it's a class issue. until we have a few months of solid across the board combat log data to work with , it's all rumors man. Play what you want.
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Although the 50% increase is pretty simplistic. it's not like buffing our threat stance is any less simplistic. Adding a few buffs to the talent tree would be easy to do.
add a bonus ToT or direct threat buff to Revenge.
Add a threat component to Heavy Handed
change Guard stance to add an additional 2/4/6% damage buff in addition to the defensive buff WHILE in soresu. Immortals could use some DPS love, and the Soresu limitation would keep dps specs from really taking advantage with it.
I like your ideas about moving the defensive skills lower in the vengance tree. particularly Deadening Defense and Unstoppable. only downside with that is they also become available for rage tree as well. Don't know if that would be bad or good. Plus we would have to either move some DPS talents up the vengance tree or the PvP talents at the lower tiers. Either way, the DPS crowd (me included) wouldn't want to lose our early DPS advantage.
Not sure ultimately about the necessity for increased AoE threat, but we are noticeably lower then the other classes. even if it's not "necessary", it still should be moderately balanced so the option is there if you want it. a ToT on smash would fit the bill. or make it a separate talent so people can choose the extra AoE threat if they want it:
"Circle of Rage" - Smash and Sweeping slash now have a ToT component added to them. Stackable buff, stacks up to 3x for a duration of 18 seconds per stack."
...or whatever. we don't really have to get amazingly creative here...the class as it is plays very well, there's not need to add fancy new stuff when we can just buff the skills that are already there.
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I found that playing though the game as Lightsided Sith was far more rewarding from a moral standpoint then many of the other classes. Besides the SI, whose story I didn't really find interesting at all, all the other classes fit with being light side because only the SW and SI really practice the dark side of the force.
Being a Sith Warrior and picking lightside choices, you feel like a mercyful god stalking the land rather then a "Oh my god, I will kill everyone that so much as looks at me" type feeling when you play darkside.
And what truly makes it interesting, is that we have all seen and read story's of the good guy turned bad, or the evil person being evil, but this has to be the first real instance I have experienced where I use dark side powers, and yet I break the mold by being somewhat good.
The turning point that really made me love the Light side Warrior was after finishing a part of your story quest where you help some republic soldiers, one of them says as you walk away, "Goodbye Sith, and thank you for saving my life". Easily the most profound moment for me in the game.
I've had many of those profound moments with my LS sith warrior as well. it pretty much sold me on the light side sith. there are plenty of times I've totally shocked republic soldiers (and even had them come to my aid later on simply due to the honor I showed them in combat). Two of the most profound for me were on Balmorra when you have to "kill" the republic general spy. the level of respect the general and the light side sith had for each others honor sent shivers up my spine. I literally had to force myself to click the inevitable "lets fight now" button.
the other was where you were looking for Darth Baras's sister, and you have to essentially team up with the jedi. I actually had the guy speechless! Thought he was gonna hug me at the end there too (ew). but it was a revealing moment when he just sorta stood there and was like, "wow. i did not expect that from a sith" .
I don't see what I was doing as manipulative for the most part. usually the times i was being manipulative I was actually trying to direct the conversations of the sith/soldiers that were doing evil things, and I was pushing them to go along with me. I almost saw myself as the "republic operative" my characters actual background story involves growing up on republic side, only to discover their true heritage as a sith. the story picks up as they arrive on Korriban, determined to learn more about their true ancestry, but for the reason of bringing the balance and honor she learned from her republic parents to the destitute on the empire side.
The light story fit perfectly with that. and was very enjoyable.
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Arent Jugs and Mara's equal damage? I chose Jug and i love it, plus you can tank if needed eventually.
many people are of the opinion that Mara's do more damage. There are no actual numbers or data to show otherwise, but logic would dictate that a pure DPS class should have a mild advantage over one that has other specs as an option.
However, with either class the ability to put out heavy DPS is VERY skill based. I've seen Jugg's that leave mara's in the dust. I've seen mara's that put everyone else to shame.
But the froums wont represent that really, because who really wants to say that they can't do good DPS because they suck? hence most of the information on the forums about DPS is anecdotal information, and opinionated at best.
You will do fine no matter which one you choose. just keep in mind that the biggest game changing patch in the history of mars invasions is coming in a few weeks, and that will change much of how the classes play. so pick what you want, and enjoy it.
Why do you hate Vette?
in Combat Styles
Posted
My first 50 was a female Jugg. I rolled a second one just so I could romance Vette.
Full of win. She cracks me up every time she laughs in combat. and I crack up every time I poke her and she responds with the "pervy sith" comment.
Only downside is I do feel like im kissing my sister at times. Jaesa may be psycho, but she also screams "inviting" at the same time. something about those sultry lips and pouty look...
...what were we talking about? oh yeah, Vette all they way!