Mid Tier Bracket PVP is an Imbalanced Mess

[SentinalMasterWW]

For Context, Mid Tier is usually if I remember Correctly levels 47-79. 

This Tier of PVP is IMO even more of a Joke than End game. It is just an imbalanced mess. 

I was playing through my Sab Slinger last night taking advantage of Double XP, I was around level 61 and thought hey maybe do some Midbies. 

First Problem, Is that Midbies is basically dead (same with lowbies BTW) 

After I get into the Match, I had players on my team around in the 50-65 Range, That is around the Average Midbie player. 

The issue was that there was a Ranked Sin player, who might've premaded, the player was around level 75-76ish, but had full 306 Gear and Gold Augs, along with their tactical of course. Who basically farmed me and my entire team.

This right here is the biggest killer of Midbies, Level 75+ players..... 

There is NO WAY, you can expect a level 54 player to beat a level 78 in 306 Gear with augs, and their tactical. 

I have no clue what the Dev's think by throwing what is basically Lambs against the slaughter, Some of my Worst PVP Experiences have been in Midbies, I've seen an AP PT go 48-0 which can be done in Endgame but is much harder since everyone is about the same Gearing and relatively skill wise. 

I've seen different ideas thrown around including making levels 71-70 their own bracket but there is just not enough players in that range to do that, and even if there was no one would Q, because they want to fight lower levels for the EZ Kills. 

My idea is simply this.... Disable Tacticals in midbies. Simply that evens out the playing field a bit more, Ideally I'd like a Temp Lvl boost where everyone gets boosted to level 80 and have their trees and abilities given to them temporarily during the match, but I think that might be a massive pain to program in. 

The only Reason the sin beat us was not skill, he literally just had the meta gear along with the meta team. I've won numerous 1v1's, and I can run a marathon around even premades, but when it comes to midbies, it literally just favors the 75+ meta. 

And in turn this kills midbies, Who wants to Q to get farmed over and over again? 

At least in Endgame you can find some enjoyment or pull a W even against a premade, but Midbies is such a massive Joke, that I would recommend players who enjoy PVPing, to just do lowbies, and skip Midbies and straight to endgame, because there is point in dealing with a broken game mode.

[krackcommando]

20 minutes ago, SentinalMasterWW said:

The issue was that there was a Ranked Sin player, who might've premaded, the player was around level 75-76ish, but had full 306 Gear and Gold Augs, along with their tactical of course. Who basically farmed me and my entire team.

This right here is the biggest killer of Midbies, Level 75+ players..... 

fwiw, the set bonus is only active the brief time that they're 75.

other than that, this is nothing new, imo.  even when brackets were only 10 levels, the balance was really wonky (thanks to more frequent ability skills ~every 2-3 levels and gear differential).

imo, lows and mids are the last thing devs should waste time on. sorry not sorry. end game requires more work and actually has potential for better balance (the other 2 brackets are far too large). look.  you shouldn't be queuing (especially solo) if you are in the lower half of the bracket. I would wait to 70 before entering mids and the last  10  levels  of the lows bracket, personally. at the end of the day, it's faster to blast through story and  heroics/quests and just do pvp very sparingly (unless you're at the top of the bracket). it's just inefficient to level in pvp and there's no reward for it (don't need/earn WZ comms or anything). 

tip: you can pass your level 75 tacticals and even 306 gear from your 80s. even w/o the set bonuses, which are only good for 1 level anyway, it's a  good help.

my /2cents  ofc. you're welcome to be understandably unhappy, but pvp below is of such little import that even asking a dev to read about it is wasting the little time they already put into pvp (apparently).

[SentinalMasterWW]

23 minutes ago, krackcommando said:

fwiw, the set bonus is only active the brief time that they're 75.

other than that, this is nothing new, imo.  even when brackets were only 10 levels, the balance was really wonky (thanks to more frequent ability skills ~every 2-3 levels and gear differential).

imo, lows and mids are the last thing devs should waste time on. sorry not sorry. end game requires more work and actually has potential for better balance (the other 2 brackets are far too large). look.  you shouldn't be queuing (especially solo) if you are in the lower half of the bracket. I would wait to 70 before entering mids and the last  10  levels  of the lows bracket, personally. at the end of the day, it's faster to blast through story and  heroics/quests and just do pvp very sparingly (unless you're at the top of the bracket). it's just inefficient to level in pvp and there's no reward for it (don't need/earn WZ comms or anything). 

tip: you can pass your level 75 tacticals and even 306 gear from your 80s. even w/o the set bonuses, which are only good for 1 level anyway, it's a  good help.

my /2cents  ofc. you're welcome to be understandably unhappy, but pvp below is of such little import that even asking a dev to read about it is wasting the little time they already put into pvp (apparently).

I'd rather them fix Endgame Don't get me wrong, but even just a small change like I suggested of disabling Tacticals would even out a bit more. 

Honestly Though, At some points because of how Dead midbies and lowbies is, Honestly Tempted to say just remove them and have endgame be the only PVP, but that might be a hot take from me. 

[TrixxieTriss]

14 minutes ago, SentinalMasterWW said:

I'd rather them fix Endgame Don't get me wrong, but even just a small change like I suggested of disabling Tacticals would even out a bit more. 

Honestly Though, At some points because of how Dead midbies and lowbies is, Honestly Tempted to say just remove them and have endgame be the only PVP, but that might be a hot take from me. 

The other solution I’ve presented multiple times over the years is to merge the lowbie & mid brackets into one bracket & boost all players to lvl 79/80 abilities & give cookie cutter stats. 

Everyone from lvl 10-79 can then participate in PvP as they lvl up & everyone is on a level playing field regarding stats/gear & available abilities.

This would then be a great place for people to learn as they lvl up & it would consolidate player numbers into 1 bracket. I would even go one step further & make the existing lvl 80 bracket a proper end game bracket that gated entry based on gear. And if you’re lvl 80 & don’t have that gear yet, you have to play in the new proposed bracket till your geared. 

So the new combined bracket would be a proper reg/learning bracket that you would obtain gear towards entry into the current lvl 80 end game bracket. Players could start farming gear from lvl 10. 

That fixes end game without actually needing to do too much too it because people would learn as they lvl & have to grind gear in the combined bracket to get into end game. So by the time they actually gain entry, they should have the required base skills & gear. Then it’s just practice to get better. 

Edited December 25, 2023 by TrixxieTriss

[sithBracer]

18 hours ago, TrixxieTriss said:

The other solution I’ve presented multiple times over the years is to merge the lowbie & mid brackets into one bracket & boost all players to lvl 79/80 abilities & give cookie cutter stats. 

Everyone from lvl 10-79 can then participate in PvP as they lvl up & everyone is on a level playing field regarding stats/gear & available abilities.

This would then be a great place for people to learn as they lvl up & it would consolidate player numbers into 1 bracket. I would even go one step further & make the existing lvl 80 bracket a proper end game bracket that gated entry based on gear. And if you’re lvl 80 & don’t have that gear yet, you have to play in the new proposed bracket till your geared. 

So the new combined bracket would be a proper reg/learning bracket that you would obtain gear towards entry into the current lvl 80 end game bracket. Players could start farming gear from lvl 10. 

That fixes end game without actually needing to do too much too it because people would learn as they lvl & have to grind gear in the combined bracket to get into end game. So by the time they actually gain entry, they should have the required base skills & gear. Then it’s just practice to get better. 

While I agree that this would work, there is still one very important question to be answered for BW/BS. How does this help the cartel market?

Edited December 26, 2023 by sithBracer

[meddani]

low/mid pvp has never been balanced like EVER and it'll never be balanced.

mid tier has always been a "learn to play your class in pvp" thing.

[Xerekfell]

14 hours ago, meddani said:

low/mid pvp has never been balanced like EVER and it'll never be balanced.

mid tier has always been a "learn to play your class in pvp" thing.

Yep but a lot of these people on the forums and in game don't have a clue how half of their abilities work, let alone the different damage types. Mostly from what i noticed is they refuse to learn and just queue for the xp or because the Seasons has a pvp reward.

Edited December 27, 2023 by Xerekfell

[meddani]

1 hour ago, Xerekfell said:

Yep but a lot of these people on the forums and in game don't have a clue how half of their abilities work, let alone the different damage types. Mostly from what i noticed is they refuse to learn and just queue for the xp or because the Seasons has a pvp reward.

"looks at mercs who conc round you into a dot*

you might be on to something lol

[DeannaVoyager]

On 12/26/2023 at 1:06 AM, TrixxieTriss said:

The other solution I’ve presented multiple times over the years is to merge the lowbie & mid brackets into one bracket & boost all players to lvl 79/80 abilities & give cookie cutter stats. 

Everyone from lvl 10-79 can then participate in PvP as they lvl up & everyone is on a level playing field regarding stats/gear & available abilities.

This would then be a great place for people to learn as they lvl up & it would consolidate player numbers into 1 bracket. I would even go one step further & make the existing lvl 80 bracket a proper end game bracket that gated entry based on gear. And if you’re lvl 80 & don’t have that gear yet, you have to play in the new proposed bracket till your geared. 

So the new combined bracket would be a proper reg/learning bracket that you would obtain gear towards entry into the current lvl 80 end game bracket. Players could start farming gear from lvl 10. 

That fixes end game without actually needing to do too much too it because people would learn as they lvl & have to grind gear in the combined bracket to get into end game. So by the time they actually gain entry, they should have the required base skills & gear. Then it’s just practice to get better. 

I was leveling shadow and a guardian the other day, the first time I am leveling anything since 7.0. You really can't do anything with the lowbie skills. Guardian got some kind of rotation around level 40, but my shadow is still missing a lot and it has horrible force management. I can't even think of trying to pvp with it because no gap closer, and after a few hits the only thing you can do is saber strike. 

The only way I can see to make lowbie & midbie pvp worth it would be what Trixxie is suggesting here. It would also be good practise for the class and something to wait for when you level up. I think it's a bit silly that we can't have a proper rotation to practise with while leveling up. No wonder people won't learn to play, when they have to spam saber strike to kill anything while doing the story.

 

 

[Beyrahl]

I'd worry about it not having a population in the first place rather than an impossible balance.

We used to get currency for doing PvP at a non-max level that'd help level up upon hitting max level or gear mains. Giving the incentive to play lower level PvP outside of just playing PvP. Currently, I think it only contributes to conquest and conquest contributes little to nothing for lower-level players and isn't impacting anything but the guild when it comes to account-wide or legacy-wise. 

[TrixxieTriss]

13 hours ago, Beyrahl said:

I'd worry about it not having a population in the first place rather than an impossible balance.

We used to get currency for doing PvP at a non-max level that'd help level up upon hitting max level or gear mains. Giving the incentive to play lower level PvP outside of just playing PvP. Currently, I think it only contributes to conquest and conquest contributes little to nothing for lower-level players and isn't impacting anything but the guild when it comes to account-wide or legacy-wise. 

That’s why combining the bracket lvls & boosting everyone’s stats to lvl 80 with max abilities would solve the population issue. Then adding back a gear grind for that bracket & gear gating actual end game lvl 80 PvP would be a solution towards improving the pvp eco system. 

Edited January 1 by TrixxieTriss

[frizzydude]

I honestly think they need to disable augments, tacticals and set bonus for anyone < level 80. It is ridiculous. There are a few players on Shae Visla that are 75, full set bonus and augmented. It kills pvp. It is not fun to play against. Realistically, there is no reason why anyone less than level 80 requires augments, so they should remove them. Or at least disable them in pvp. I also agree with the comment about merging low and mid bracket pvp. Currently there are long queue times and when we do get a warzone pop, both teams are only half full. Bolster to 80 and make pvp at low level more enjoyable.

[supertimtaf]

9 hours ago, frizzydude said:

There are a few players on Shae Visla that are 75, full set bonus and augmented.

Yeah, I see them on Malgus too. Unsubbed players that are abusing the fact that they cannot level up to 80 to farm everyone else with their tactical+set bonus.

I honestly don't mind the level imbalance, bolster does a pretty good job at managing that but while these lvl 75 players are not good enough to be a serious threat to actual decent players, they still definitely ruin games for people with less experience in PvP. And no, you can't learn anything from getting destroyed by someone with full gear while you're not. It just contributes to emptying queues for mid bracket, and doesn't help new players learn anything about PvP

[meddani]

i agree about the lv 75 set bonuses (which only lasts one level anyway lol) but everyone can spend 100k ish for ossus gear at lvl 70

[Darkestmonty]

On 12/25/2023 at 6:06 PM, TrixxieTriss said:

The other solution I’ve presented multiple times over the years is to merge the lowbie & mid brackets into one bracket & boost all players to lvl 79/80 abilities & give cookie cutter stats. 

Everyone from lvl 10-79 can then participate in PvP as they lvl up & everyone is on a level playing field regarding stats/gear & available abilities.

This would then be a great place for people to learn as they lvl up & it would consolidate player numbers into 1 bracket. I would even go one step further & make the existing lvl 80 bracket a proper end game bracket that gated entry based on gear. And if you’re lvl 80 & don’t have that gear yet, you have to play in the new proposed bracket till your geared. 

So the new combined bracket would be a proper reg/learning bracket that you would obtain gear towards entry into the current lvl 80 end game bracket. Players could start farming gear from lvl 10. 

That fixes end game without actually needing to do too much too it because people would learn as they lvl & have to grind gear in the combined bracket to get into end game. So by the time they actually gain entry, they should have the required base skills & gear. Then it’s just practice to get better. 

Copy ffxiv, all players boosted to 80, all players have access to all skills, stats are preset, equipment does not exist but players get to pick implants and tactical.

This creates one pvp bracket.

Skill system should be redesigned. All skills are accessible to the player at level 1 but are grayed out until they reach the right level to unlock them. Players can still place the skills on their hotbars and pick their skill tree but until grayed out skills only become active in pvp, around a test dummy, or once they reach the right level.

The ffxiv system isn't fair for everyone but it is more fair than our current system of a level 45 agaist a level 75 with set gear and tactical

Edited January 10 by Darkestmonty

[Darkestmonty]

2 hours ago, meddani said:

i agree about the lv 75 set bonuses (which only lasts one level anyway lol) but everyone can spend 100k ish for ossus gear at lvl 70

There are numerous people who stopped subscribing in 6.x that are maxed out at level 75 destroying everyone because they permanently have access to level 75 set gear and a tactical.

I run into them when ever I level new alts.

Edited January 10 by Darkestmonty

[supertimtaf]

44 minutes ago, Darkestmonty said:

Copy ffxiv, all players boosted to 80, all players have access to all skills, stats are preset, equipment does not exist but players get to pick implants and tactical.

Sadly this they do not want, as this would tremendously reduce the engagement players have toward their gearing system which they spend way too long trying to set up (and still isn't right imo). I'd think that they'd agree if gearing was much more stable and engaging right from the start. But at the moment it isn't. So they try to find ways to keep players invested in it. This includes forcing players to gear up correctly for PvP. Which I don't mind anyway, because it allows tanks to get rid of useless tank stats. :') I think that once they get a better gearing system in place, and possibly make tanks more interesting with tank gear in PvP then we could see that happen. In the meantime, it's simply never gonna happen sadly

[meddani]

1 hour ago, Darkestmonty said:

There are numerous people who stopped subscribing in 6.x that are maxed out at level 75 destroying everyone because they permanently have access to level 75 set gear and a tactical.

I run into them when ever I level new alts.

i didn't even know this works lol

[RACATW]

22 minutes ago, meddani said:

i didn't even know this works lol

Just wait until you run into the perma 75s accounts abusing a new gear exploit. @JackieKo @EricMusco I reported a major PVP bolster gear exploit a few days ago quite a few players in a specific guild are purposely abusing in mids to retain their gear advantage.

 

Maybe the exploit exists in 80s PvP too, I haven't checked their characters in 80s PvP since they changed their names on different accounts but have seen some anomalies this week with characters I'm nearly 100% certain are theirs in 80s.

 

80s is slightly less of a big deal due to tradeoffs but it still creates a significant issue.

Could you please look into this bolster exploit for us? I'm happy to provide more information if necessary by PM.

Edited January 10 by RACATW

[Darkestmonty]

Just now, RACATW said:

Just wait until you run into the 75s abusing a new gear exploit. @JackieKo I reported a major bolster gear exploit a few days ago. Could you please look into it for us? I'm happy to provide more information if necessary.

the only "gear exploit" I know of is playing through the Manaan questline and getting BOL 322(?) gear which was released with 7.0 and the level requirement is 75.

I don't think people who stopped subscribing in 6.0 can access Manaan daily questline which means they are stuck with 306 gear max.

I know people like myself who use that Manaan quest gear at level 75-79 since it is the best gear you can pick up until 80 but even then that gear barely makes up for the lack of the level 75 set bonus.

[RACATW]

11 minutes ago, Darkestmonty said:

the only "gear exploit" I know of is playing through the Manaan questline and getting BOL 322(?) gear which was released with 7.0 and the level requirement is 75.

I don't think people who stopped subscribing in 6.0 can access Manaan daily questline which means they are stuck with 306 gear max.

I know people like myself who use that Manaan quest gear at level 75-79 since it is the best gear you can pick up until 80 but even then that gear barely makes up for the lack of the level 75 set bonus.

I'm not going to say what the exploit is, (in public) but it's a pretty big one damage wise.

Edited January 10 by RACATW

[Darkestmonty]

1 minute ago, RACATW said:

I'm not going to say what the exploit is, (in public) but it's a pretty big one damage wise.

so it's not just using the level 75 gear from Manaan.

[RACATW]

Just now, Darkestmonty said:

so it's not just using the level 75 gear from Manaan.

No, unfortunately.

[supertimtaf]

15 minutes ago, RACATW said:

I'm not going to say what the exploit is, (in public) but it's a pretty big one damage wise.

Did they find an obscure low level implant or relic that gives a stupid stat boost, *again* ? 

[RACATW]

2 hours ago, supertimtaf said:

Did they find an obscure low level implant or relic that gives a stupid stat boost, *again* ? 

Yeah, something like that. Except it might be worse, since the stat boost is massive and the damage noticeably higher.