Why is 340 gear for the select few elite

[LEEscoundral]

 I find it ridiculous that solo players who may not have the time to schedule and organise 8 elite players can not have the best gear...  For example you might be competing in random organized ops in a friendly parse off.. I don't see why solo players should be held at a disadvantage (when they may be better in skill anyway).. My suggestion would be to allow a 340 token (or up-gradable to 340 piece) to drop in a box at the end of all vet mode operations (edit.. ok perhaps not ev/kp).

 I dont get the theory behind catering for the 'elitist groups' who dont even include new raiders and mostly troll them..

How about at least leveling the playing field so randomly organised ops can be enjoyed by all without unfair advantages..

 

Edited October 5, 2022 by LEEscoundral
Suggestion

[xordevoreaux]

Quote

I don't see why solo players should be held at a disadvantage

Such wasn't the case in 6.0.  Gearing to 306 under 6.0 was egalitarian; everyone with a casual amount of effort could get the best gear.
Guess which group of players marched out to the forums brandishing pitchforks complaining about that?

So now, under 7.x, the haves and the have-nots are separated by an effort barrier. 

Under 6.0, the formula was easy: time + randomness = BiS. 
Under 7.x,  time + effort + who you know in a nightmare raiding guild willing to take you through harder content = BiS

 

[ZUHFB]

1 hour ago, xordevoreaux said:

Guess which group of players marched out to the forums brandishing pitchforks complaining about that?

Certainly not raiders, the forums are memed in voice chat all the time. I'm sorry but the people helping/complaining about balancing for example just do not know what they are talking about at all, the forums are not a place for them to look... Even if they manage to type out a well thought of and logic argument why some classes should perform lower or how to fix that or whatever they do not get a response, or the response borders trolling with something like "Well I can play full tank darkness in regs and ballast point helps me a lot!". Then the devs reply to a topic which companion you would date irl or whatever and they just feel like they are slapped around and yet, yet we get a FAIR gearing system were you can do CONTENT FOR GEAR not do the content because you have gear! Like in every other game!? 

Nobody said its unfair everybody can be max gear, I'm just saying that it's not unfair that gear is locked behind the newest content. Thats why I am fine with the idea of SM tokens being convertible to HM tokens, no more free handouts! 

[JediQuaker]

Oh **** not this again! Unless you are an 'elite' player, you don't need 340 gear. I get by perfectly fine with 'only' 330. Some people come across like the kid having a tantrum in the cereal aisle because mummy won't buy the Choco Krispies. 😂

Many of these same people would then complain that the 'high end' content doesn't give enough rewards if they don't get something special. 😏

Edited October 4, 2022 by JediQuaker

[FlameYOL]

36 minutes ago, JediQuaker said:

Oh **** not this again! Unless you are an 'elite' player, you don't need 340 gear. I get by perfectly fine with 'only' 330. Some people come across like the kid having a tantrum in the cereal aisle because mummy won't buy the Choco Krispies. 😂

Many of these same people would then complain that the 'high end' content doesn't give enough rewards if they don't get something special. 😏

To add to your point I have 331 gear (330 MM FP gear+334 Implants), and I'm able to perform both of my roles (Tank and DPS) quite well in MM FPs and SM OPs. Personally I'm not missing having max Irating gear, I was missing having moddable gear but thankfully 7.1 fixed that.

[Floplag]

This is how its supposed to be.  No MMO gives out top level gear without completing top level content. 
Now you wanna argue that its out of whack due to class balance and such, im with that, but the idea that everyone should get top gear without doing top content has never made sense. 
In the end it really doesnt matter as things like PvP are balanced to a set level attainable by all so, why does it really matter?

[LEEscoundral]

 It matters as much as balancing pvp gear.. for pvers who compete in parse... So why balance one thing and not the other?

 

[VegaMist]

9 hours ago, JediQuaker said:

Oh **** not this again! Unless you are an 'elite' player, you don't need 340 gear. I get by perfectly fine with 'only' 330. Some people come across like the kid having a tantrum in the cereal aisle because mummy won't buy the Choco Krispies. 😂

Many of these same people would then complain that the 'high end' content doesn't give enough rewards if they don't get something special. 😏

I don't buy this argument. Not having access to top gear prevents many from even attempting that content. It effectively creates chicken/egg situation - you need the gear to participate, but you can only get the gear by participating. Special rewards can be cosmetics, mounts, etc. - any cool non-essentials.

[xxSHOONYxx]

1 hour ago, LEEscoundral said:

 It matters as much as balancing pvp gear.. for pvers who compete in parse... So why balance one thing and not the other?

 

Pvers that compete in parse have top parses because of their skill not becacuse of their gear, and they got their gear because of their skills

 

 

33 minutes ago, VegaMist said:

I don't buy this argument. Not having access to top gear prevents many from even attempting that content. It effectively creates chicken/egg situation - you need the gear to participate, but you can only get the gear by participating. Special rewards can be cosmetics, mounts, etc. - any cool non-essentials.

You don't need 340 gear to do anything but Gods from the Machines NiM, everything else can be done with 330 gear more than fine. The big difference in dps is not the gear but the skill and knowledge of the class and whatever fight you are doing. You can give everyone top gear like last expansions since 4.0 and with everyone with top gear most of them didn't try or clear any NiM. I Joined some nefra nim in 7.0 for offhands for alt classes and you would see people doing 10-15k dps on 330 augmented gear with terrible apm, gear won't help them get better, learning their class, rotation, utilities and movements will do that, and getting better will reward you with top gear.

Edited October 4, 2022 by xxSHOONYxx

[VegaMist]

1 minute ago, xxSHOONYxx said:

You don't need 340 gear to do anything but Gods from the Machines NiM, everything else can be done with 330 gear more than fine. The big difference in dps is not the gear but the skill of the player. You can give everyone top gear like last expansions since 4.0 and the people capable of doing NiM was no everyone with top gear. I Joined some nefra nim in 7.0 for offhands for alt classes and you would see people doing 10-15k dps on 330 augmented gear with terrible apm, gear won't help you get better, learning your class, rotation, utilities and movements will do that, and getting better will reward you with top gear.

If skill is the only difference, then it shouldn't matter if everyone has access to the same gear. The fact is gear does make a difference. Try going into any flashpoint, remove all gear (just leave the weapon) and see how well you'd do. And between two equally-skilled players, better gear will tip the scale. Also, Ops wouldn't have gear limitations if gear didn't matter. "Gear won't help you get better, learning your class, rotation, utilities and movements will do that" is a very arrogant thing to say and doesn't help your argument.

[xxSHOONYxx]

58 minutes ago, VegaMist said:

If skill is the only difference, then it shouldn't matter if everyone has access to the same gear. The fact is gear does make a difference. Try going into any flashpoint, remove all gear (just leave the weapon) and see how well you'd do. And between two equally-skilled players, better gear will tip the scale. Also, Ops wouldn't have gear limitations if gear didn't matter. "Gear won't help you get better, learning your class, rotation, utilities and movements will do that" is a very arrogant thing to say and doesn't help your argument.

Top gear is the reward you get for beating the newest op. Top gear has been used to incentivise especially in other games to do harder content, and this game too from 1.0 to 3.0 to now 7.1. I highly doubt people care what others have, at least i don't, what I want is to be rewarded by doing the hardest content in the game, and giving free gear doesnt help to make hard content rewarding nor it helps the playerbase to learn how to play correctly their class. 

There is a big difference between having no gear and just 10 less IRating

Ops have no gear limitation, fps had gear limitations before in 1.0. You can enter to any NiM op with 0 gear. The gear limitation is created by players or "community sugestion" 

It's hardly an arrogant statement, i am far from the best players but did every operation on every difficulty and their timer. You can go into a fleet pug of ev kp or nefra, open star parse and you will see it for yourself.  Newer people on avarage don't know how to play the game or their class because the game removed the difficulty and teaching progress it would give the player the knowledge to get better. Newer players go from sm ops that you can do them while sleeping to hm and they are lost because they dont know what rotation to use,  that the operations actually have mechanics  and cant be ignored like in sm, how to gear properly and what stats to have, how to interrupt, move while dps and more

Edited October 5, 2022 by xxSHOONYxx

[VegaMist]

18 minutes ago, xxSHOONYxx said:

Top gear is the reward you get for beating the newest op. Top gear has been used to incentivise especially in other games to do harder content, and this game too from 1.0 to 3.0 to now 7.1. I highly doubt people care what others have, at least i don't, what I want is to be rewarded by doing the hardest content in the game, and giving free gear doesnt help to make hard content rewarding nor it helps the playerbase to learn how to play correctly their class. 

There is a big difference between having no gear and just 10 less IRating

Ops have no gear limitation, fps had gear limitations before in 1.0. You can enter to any NiM op with 0 gear. The gear limitation is created by players or "community sugestion" 

It's hardly an arrogant statement, i am far from the best players but did every operation on every difficulty and their timer. You can go into a fleet pug of ev kp or nefra, open star parse and you will see it for yourself.  Newer people on avarage don't know how to play the game or their class because the game removed the difficulty and teaching progress it would give the player the knowledge to get better. Newer players go from sm ops that you can do them while sleeping to hm and they are lost because they dont know what rotation to use,  that the operations actually have mechanics  and cant be ignored like in sm, how to gear properly and what stats to have, how to interrupt, move while dps and more

It doesn't matter whether the limitation is created by players in the op - under-geared players still can't join. And they can't learn the mechanics since they can't join hence chicken/egg situation. You believe top gear should be rewarded for top content only and that's where we essentially disagree. I believe there should be a path (slower one) for everyone to obtain the same-level gear (similar to 6.0) and then let the skills decide the best players. I also believe ops should provide unique rewards, but those should be limited to non-essential (though cool and desirable) cosmetics, mounts, etc. As proven by this thread (an many before it), I'm not alone in it.

[xxSHOONYxx]

55 minutes ago, VegaMist said:

It doesn't matter whether the limitation is created by players in the op - under-geared players still can't join. And they can't learn the mechanics since they can't join hence chicken/egg situation. You believe top gear should be rewarded for top content only and that's where we essentially disagree. I believe there should be a path (slower one) for everyone to obtain the same-level gear (similar to 6.0) and then let the skills decide the best players. I also believe ops should provide unique rewards, but those should be limited to non-essential (though cool and desirable) cosmetics, mounts, etc. As proven by this thread (an many before it), I'm not alone in it.

Trust me, gear has nothing to do with who gets invited and who doesn't. You will never see top tier raiders pugging on fleet, they have a selected discord/group they will go to do whichever op. For fleet pugs i never did many, but the ones i did i didn't see anyone asked to leave due to gear, but if that happens it sounds very dumb to not let everyone join easy operations.
The place for people to learn operations and get better is in actual teams, i've seen a lot of recruitment posts lately, hm teams usually just ask for 326 augmented gear (some experience in hm and some not), nim legacy usually just ask 330 with augment and unless its a team going from hm to nim they will ask for nim experience and previous clears, and r4 are asking 330 with augments and experience or not depending if they are on IP-CPT or on a different boss.

I will give it to you though, to reach the top tier of the game is hard and gatekeeped by biowares own decisions and i don't mean r4 gear. The gap between top tier and avarage player has only been getting bigger and top tier players is not like they are mean but have been playing the game for years and don't have the patiance to wipe over and over by bringing people that only do sm ops into nim ops, they just chose to run with each other. And the influx of new NiM capable people is just low, for several years new players had no real incentive to get better outside of old cosmetics or titles because gear was given freely, and those that actually wanted to get better due to people not being incentivized had a hard time getting in groups or trouble finding like minded people that want to get better. Those that want to get better and do nim content first need to find a hm team to clear the hm ops, then into nim, then into r4 hm, then into dxun and gods. So it ends up on a tight knit community that doesnt want to get out of itself but itactually welcoms people that reach that level, story mode people or hm people and people that want to reach that nim level but have a very hard time finding like minded people because of lackluster incentives. I remember when i joined the game and saw people in max gear by doing nim EV and KP, it motivated me to get better, drived me reach that level, probably not everyone is like me, but i know it is something that works at least for people to actually get better and motivate them. 

If people want to get better, as i adviced in a different post, is best to join swtor theorycrafters discord, there you will learn almost everything you need to know about your class

Edited October 5, 2022 by xxSHOONYxx

[AdsAillard]

7 hours ago, VegaMist said:

If skill is the only difference, then it shouldn't matter if everyone has access to the same gear. The fact is gear does make a difference. Try going into any flashpoint, remove all gear (just leave the weapon) and see how well you'd do. And between two equally-skilled players, better gear will tip the scale. Also, Ops wouldn't have gear limitations if gear didn't matter. "Gear won't help you get better, learning your class, rotation, utilities and movements will do that" is a very arrogant thing to say and doesn't help your argument.

... TBH, I have done just that. I have gotten into a MM Kaon Under Siege on my healer, unaware I had no gear save my mainhand/offhand, my tank was an insane maniac that pulled whole rooms and really we just died closing in on the last boss encounter, where he pulled like 3 groups to LOS and I couldn't keep up (still killed a bunch of them). 

Now, I complained through the whole thing that my energy management was awful in 7.0, and these were not randoms, but the fact that only when I opened up my crate and got 320 gear that I realised I was naked should say that it's not really about gear; specially given I'm not even good, merely passable. 

Sure, gear will tip scales between two equally-skilled players; but it won't allow players with less skill to clear harder content. And while "learning your class" may sound arrogant, it really is what will make a true difference. And, well, Ops don't have "gear limitations" per se - any SM (save R4; may be rough on Gods) can be easily cleared in 320 gear; and legacy HMs can be done in 326. The 330 gear of the solo player should be good enough for it too... Although, if they're a solo player, does it matter? I'm truly confused by this argument. 

 

4 hours ago, xxSHOONYxx said:

Trust me, gear has nothing to do with who gets invited and who doesn't. You will never see top tier raiders pugging on fleet, they have a selected discord/group they will go to do whichever op. For fleet pugs i never did many, but the ones i did i didn't see anyone asked to leave due to gear, but if that happens it sounds very dumb to not let everyone join easy operations.

Only ever seen it asked for NiM Nefra (pre 7.1 even), and that's because it's real rough bringing a 320 tank into it, specially a pug you never seen. But even then, the ask was 326 which was easily obtainable by pretty much any path.

 

5 hours ago, xxSHOONYxx said:

So it ends up on a tight knit community that doesnt want to get out of itself but itactually welcoms people that reach that level, story mode people or hm people and people that want to reach that nim level but have a very hard time finding like minded people because of lackluster incentives. I remember when i joined the game and saw people in max gear by doing nim EV and KP, it motivated me to get better, drived me reach that level, probably not everyone is like me, but i know it is something that works at least for people to actually get better and motivate them. 

Yeah, I don't dabble in NiM myself, but I have friends who do from what I can witness about its community from participating in certain raiding communities is that there's a significant amount of NiM raiders that are happy to each HM ppl NiM; Learning NiM teams, simply being really good in welcoming new people to the group. Mind you, there are still the unbearable elitists, but that's not the average.

And the funniest thing about this thread is that... NiM doesn't even give you 340 gear.

[DeannaVoyager]

People tend to compare casual SM players and organized sale runners and other NiM teams when talking about who needs BiS gear to make an argument, and that by default is wrong.

You're forgetting the people between those levels who are not casuals, but would benefit from better gear because they are not quite there yet, but enjoy doing harder content. You're forgetting the people who had did NiM and Hardmare content before 7.0 but lost their teams because 7.0. You're comparing those people to casual SM players just because they don't have a team anymore. It's easy to say "casual SM players don't need BiS gear". True, they don't. But there are people who do, but are not getting any because they don't know the right people or don't have a team anymore. 

Unfortunately BiS gear is only dropping from R-4 HM because BW wants to cater sale runners and the NiM teams that didn't get disbanded because of 7.0. Only they are worthy now. And of course the people who know people who can give Watchdog locks, they are also worthy because they might be able to kill Watchdog if they just get a lock from someone. And the people who have enough credits to buy sale runs to get the gear, they are also worthy. Makes sense, huh?

 

The rest of the raiding community is irrelevant.  All old operations are irrelevant. They could add 340 tokens into MM ops if they wanted to. Or add them to last boss in HM like OP suggested (but excluding KP and EV).  Just basically make BiS gear more accessible for people who need or want it. Raiding has become really boring now, when the only thing we can do is R-4.

 

 

[ZUHFB]

8 hours ago, VegaMist said:

I don't buy this argument. Not having access to top gear prevents many from even attempting that content. It effectively creates chicken/egg situation - you need the gear to participate, but you can only get the gear by participating. Special rewards can be cosmetics, mounts, etc. - any cool non-essentials.

No this makes no sense at all. The people who cleared it all did it in 330 because you literally cannot go above that before R4, if you can't do it in 330 the solution isn't to get more gear, it's to get keybinds.

[DeannaVoyager]

30 minutes ago, AdsAillard said:

 

Sure, gear will tip scales between two equally-skilled players; but it won't allow players with less skill to clear harder content. And while "learning your class" may sound arrogant, it really is what will make a true difference.

 

Exactly this. People in higher gear rating and golden augments pull way higher dps than someone on the same skill level but with 330 gear and purple augments. The difference is massive and can easily make difference between killing a boss or not killing it. Everyone who says gear doesn't matter is lying. 

[ZUHFB]

5 hours ago, xxSHOONYxx said:

Trust me, gear has nothing to do with who gets invited and who doesn't. You will never see top tier raiders pugging on fleet, they have a selected discord/group they will go to do whichever op. For fleet pugs i never did many, but the ones i did i didn't see anyone asked to leave due to gear, but if that happens it sounds very dumb to not let everyone join easy operations.
The place for people to learn operations and get better is in actual teams, i've seen a lot of recruitment posts lately, hm teams usually just ask for 326 augmented gear (some experience in hm and some not), nim legacy usually just ask 330 with augment and unless its a team going from hm to nim they will ask for nim experience and previous clears, and r4 are asking 330 with augments and experience or not depending if they are on IP-CPT or on a different boss.

I will give it to you though, to reach the top tier of the game is hard and gatekeeped by biowares own decisions and i don't mean r4 gear. The gap between top tier and avarage player has only been getting bigger and top tier players is not like they are mean but have been playing the game for years and don't have the patiance to wipe over and over by bringing people that only do sm ops into nim ops, they just chose to run with each other. And the influx of new NiM capable people is just low, for several years new players had no real incentive to get better outside of old cosmetics or titles because gear was given freely, and those that actually wanted to get better due to people not being incentivized had a hard time getting in groups or trouble finding like minded people that want to get better. Those that want to get better and do nim content first need to find a hm team to clear the hm ops, then into nim, then into r4 hm, then into dxun and gods. So it ends up on a tight knit community that doesnt want to get out of itself but itactually welcoms people that reach that level, story mode people or hm people and people that want to reach that nim level but have a very hard time finding like minded people because of lackluster incentives. I remember when i joined the game and saw people in max gear by doing nim EV and KP, it motivated me to get better, drived me reach that level, probably not everyone is like me, but i know it is something that works at least for people to actually get better and motivate them. 

If people want to get better, as i adviced in a different post, is best to join swtor theorycrafters discord, there you will learn almost everything you need to know about your class

Factually true. Not having 330 is just disrespectful to the team you try to apply to, it's not that you "need" 330 for legacy content or R-4, it's that not having it is disrespectful and who wants to raid with someone like that?

I hate the argument of "oh but the players trying to clear it and struggle wouldn't struggle so hard if they had 340" Yeah, they wouldn't, or how about trying to improve instead? Like all the people that did already clear it? Something that would actually help out once the next gear tier is out? Expecting to be able to get max gear when you're a solo player is.... ridiculous! Nevermind it completely kills the emersion to be able to kill the dreadmasters with your companions... 

Now that some time has gone into R-4, a lot of groups are able clear the operation. It's not just the elite teams, it's actually way more. Any team that is able to beat brontes is able to beat R-4. Yes, R-4 is HM and Brontes is MM, however I'd argue that it qualifies as a hardmare since there is no mastermode right now. Kinda like Revan. 

[AdsAillard]

14 minutes ago, ZUHFB said:

Factually true. Not having 330 is just disrespectful to the team you try to apply to, it's not that you "need" 330 for legacy content or R-4, it's that not having it is disrespectful and who wants to raid with someone like that?

I'm a bit confused, how is it disrespectful ?

I'm a bit at loss for the choice of words there.
 

[ZUHFB]

2 hours ago, AdsAillard said:

I'm a bit confused, how is it disrespectful ?

I'm a bit at loss for the choice of words there.
 

Well everybody else has 330 gear. Showing up in anything less is just not good manners, everybody else spend the time gearing up so why should they even think about trial someone that doesn't have gear? 

Having a lower gearscore because of more reallife responsibilities is NOT what I am talking about here. For any progression team gear below 330 is straight up unacceptable, the time requirement isn't ridiculously high. Not having 340 is completely different than not having 330, not having 330 shows a lack of commitment and gameknowledge, while not having 340 shows a lack of skill. The lack of skill isn't an issue for a progression team since they can teach and help you, not having a baseline commitment is a huge deal though. The recruiters are looking for people that stay long term so the investment of their time into explanations is worth their own time, if someone just leaves the game after a month because of the previously mentioned lack of commitment their own time got wasted. Which I would classify as being disrespectful. 

In the end it's just my opinion though, maybe someone likes the idea of someone joining their team, causing wipes because he's new and then leaving after a month when the quality is finally acceptable, I however do find this behavior disrespectful. 

[Floplag]

17 hours ago, VegaMist said:

I don't buy this argument. Not having access to top gear prevents many from even attempting that content. It effectively creates chicken/egg situation - you need the gear to participate, but you can only get the gear by participating. Special rewards can be cosmetics, mounts, etc. - any cool non-essentials.

But it doesnt, or shouldnt, unless the content is mis-tuned.
You should not need 340 ilvl to do the content that drops it, thatsd not logical, no game does that... you need the level below it typically.  
If you "need" 340 gear to do content that drops 340 gear, then that content isnt properly tuned... its not a gear problem. 

[xxSHOONYxx]

8 hours ago, AdsAillard said:

Yeah, I don't dabble in NiM myself, but I have friends who do from what I can witness about its community from participating in certain raiding communities is that there's a significant amount of NiM raiders that are happy to each HM ppl NiM; Learning NiM teams, simply being really good in welcoming new people to the group. Mind you, there are still the unbearable elitists, but that's not the average.

Every community has it's a*holes sadly. And it is, there are race events with prices made by those communites on different servers than everyone can apply to. Even as a sm or hm player you can apply to them and people have ended up with nim clears or even timed runs when its their first time stepping into nim operations
 

8 hours ago, DeannaVoyager said:

Exactly this. People in higher gear rating and golden augments pull way higher dps than someone on the same skill level but with 330 gear and purple augments. The difference is massive and can easily make difference between killing a boss or not killing it. Everyone who says gear doesn't matter is lying. 

The difference by what i remember in dps is roughly 5-7% dps gain from 340 to 330. Don't exactly quote me on that because is by memory i didn't check the numbers now. And even then every operation hp in nim was reduced in 7.1, so 330 is also overkill for nim ops. 
 

8 hours ago, DeannaVoyager said:

People tend to compare casual SM players and organized sale runners and other NiM teams when talking about who needs BiS gear to make an argument, and that by default is wrong.

It's not about who needs bis, no one "needs" bis (outside of gods nim but you could argue the issue is poor scaling rather than needing 340 gear) because everything can be done with 330, bis is a reward and encouragment for you efforts or efforts to get better. 
 

8 hours ago, DeannaVoyager said:

You're forgetting the people between those levels who are not casuals, but would benefit from better gear because they are not quite there yet, but enjoy doing harder content. You're forgetting the people who had did NiM and Hardmare content before 7.0 but lost their teams because 7.0. You're comparing those people to casual SM players just because they don't have a team anymore. It's easy to say "casual SM players don't need BiS gear". True, they don't. But there are people who do, but are not getting any because they don't know the right people or don't have a team anymore. 

If they enjoy doing harder content then they should strive to get better, giving more gear to people that still havent reached their skill ceilings would not be helping them, will stagger their skill improving. People that did nim one way or another know people and if they cant/don't want to get in a team they can still do pugs with those people. 
I've seen several team recruitment posts with 7.1  release in different discord servers, but you have to socialize or get out of your way to find it, its not like you will land in a team without effort either by improving your skills or going into those discords. 

 

8 hours ago, DeannaVoyager said:

Unfortunately BiS gear is only dropping from R-4 HM because BW wants to cater sale runners and the NiM teams that didn't get disbanded because of 7.0. Only they are worthy now. And of course the people who know people who can give Watchdog locks, they are also worthy because they might be able to kill Watchdog if they just get a lock from someone. And the people who have enough credits to buy sale runs to get the gear, they are also worthy. Makes sense, huh?

It's hardly catering to nim raiders or sale teams, it's rewarding people for their efforts, like the majority of other game do. 
Kind of the same point, people ask in those same discords for lockouts and those that have it give them freely, without being friends to who is asking or getting paid

 

8 hours ago, DeannaVoyager said:

The rest of the raiding community is irrelevant.  All old operations are irrelevant. They could add 340 tokens into MM ops if they wanted to. Or add them to last boss in HM like OP suggested (but excluding KP and EV).  Just basically make BiS gear more accessible for people who need or want it. Raiding has become really boring now, when the only thing we can do is R-4

The rest of the raiding community is not irrelevant, but there is a progression everyone has to make if they want to reach that level. You don't wake up one day and suddenly you become a NiM raider. New ops having the new gear is kind of like has always happened in most mmos, here old ops are scaled to max level for more content, but it shouldn't make it a reason why ops that everyone has discovered everything there is about them and every trick to drop max gear. As they said if i remember correctly they will keep improving gear rating from other sources, but to me BiS gear shuold stay as a reward, not something that is easily given    

[DeannaVoyager]

1 hour ago, xxSHOONYxx said:

Every community has it's a*holes sadly. And it is, there are race events with prices made by those communites on different servers than everyone can apply to. Even as a sm or hm player you can apply to them and people have ended up with nim clears or even timed runs when its their first time stepping into nim operations
 

The difference by what i remember in dps is roughly 5-7% dps gain from 340 to 330. Don't exactly quote me on that because is by memory i didn't check the numbers now. And even then every operation hp in nim was reduced in 7.1, so 330 is also overkill for nim ops. 
 

It's not about who needs bis, no one "needs" bis (outside of gods nim but you could argue the issue is poor scaling rather than needing 340 gear) because everything can be done with 330, bis is a reward and encouragment for you efforts or efforts to get better. 
 

If they enjoy doing harder content then they should strive to get better, giving more gear to people that still havent reached their skill ceilings would not be helping them, will stagger their skill improving. People that did nim one way or another know people and if they cant/don't want to get in a team they can still do pugs with those people. 
I've seen several team recruitment posts with 7.1  release in different discord servers, but you have to socialize or get out of your way to find it, its not like you will land in a team without effort either by improving your skills or going into those discords. 

 

It's hardly catering to nim raiders or sale teams, it's rewarding people for their efforts, like the majority of other game do. 
Kind of the same point, people ask in those same discords for lockouts and those that have it give them freely, without being friends to who is asking or getting paid

 

The rest of the raiding community is not irrelevant, but there is a progression everyone has to make if they want to reach that level. You don't wake up one day and suddenly you become a NiM raider. New ops having the new gear is kind of like has always happened in most mmos, here old ops are scaled to max level for more content, but it shouldn't make it a reason why ops that everyone has discovered everything there is about them and every trick to drop max gear. As they said if i remember correctly they will keep improving gear rating from other sources, but to me BiS gear shuold stay as a reward, not something that is easily given    

 

I don't know how to split quotes on this forum becuase we don't have bb-code anymore, so I'll try to keep it short:

 

If no-one "needs" 340 gear it shouldn't exist in the game. Gear might have been a reward when the first people got it, but now people are getting it with credits from sale teams or they are getting through lockouts or getting carried by friends. So it isn't a reward for clearing difficult content anymore. The so called "reward" is for sale, and the only thing that matters now is who do you know or how much credits you have.  It has nothing to do with being good enough to "earn" it anymore. All the arguments supporting this disparity in gearing don't have any justification anymore. After some people started to sell the gear and sell the lockouts, the gear lost the only value it had (according to all the people who claim gear doesn't matter). The same people are really funny too: they talk about how they want challenging content, yet they are the first ones to equip better gear than the rest of the raiding community. Sounds to me they only want a challenge for the rest of the raiding community, not for themselves. 

 

Beats me why BW let's sale run teams benefit from it and sell their credits to gold sellers instead of just putting the stuff on vendor for everyone to buy and use it as a really easy credit sink.

 

 

[ZUHFB]

9 minutes ago, DeannaVoyager said:

Beats me why BW let's sale run teams benefit from it and sell their credits to gold sellers instead of just putting the stuff on vendor for everyone to buy and use it as a really easy credit sink.

Well first of all the character credit cap is too low to do that, 2nd there would be a giant ****storm if a piece of 340 gear would be sold for 25b at a vendor?

Not like it would matter, let's be real. If a team struggles to do R-4 in 330 not only are they not good enough, they also wouldn't do it in full 340. 

 

Yes, obviously nobody needs 340. But it should be in the game as the reward to beat challenging content. Sure, there are sales but they have been there for YEARS. A sale doesn't devalue actually beating the boss legit at all. Literally who cares.

[JediQuaker]

2 hours ago, Floplag said:

You should not need 340 ilvl to do the content that drops it, thatsd not logical, no game does that... you need the level below it typically.  
If you "need" 340 gear to do content that drops 340 gear, then that content isnt properly tuned... its not a gear problem. 

Exactly. How is anyone supposed to do (for example) R4 if it were to require 340 to complete it?