Why is 340 gear for the select few elite

[xxSHOONYxx]

1 hour ago, DeannaVoyager said:

If no-one "needs" 340 gear it shouldn't exist in the game.

This really makes no sense, is the same way other games give you more powerful weapons once you have beaten the game, it is an incentive and something to motivate you. 

 

1 hour ago, DeannaVoyager said:

Gear might have been a reward when the first people got it, but now people are getting it with credits from sale teams or they are getting through lockouts or getting carried by friends

It really seems your issue is sale teams. First its just for the elite, and now you use as an argument how others that are not "elite" can also get it. 
 

1 hour ago, DeannaVoyager said:

The so called "reward" is for sale, and the only thing that matters now is who do you know or how much credits you have.  It has nothing to do with being good enough to "earn" it anymore. All the arguments supporting this disparity in gearing don't have any justification anymore. After some people started to sell the gear and sell the lockouts, the gear lost the only value it had (according to all the people who claim gear doesn't matter).

You make it sound as if hundreds of people are buying runs daily, or that lockouts are being sold? first time i hear that, lockouts have always been given freely. And just the fact that r4 is being sellable by some people with just 7 players it shows the op is far from hard or tight to requiere 8 players because the difference in gear from 340 to 330 is nowhere as near as making 7 people perform as 8, which according to some would  also be 8 elite players because "only elite players can clear it". Those that can't do it just have room to improve, a high percentage of the difficulty of new ops is that people don't know how the fight works. 
Gear losing the value is just such a bad argument, the gear is a reward, the elite will always get it because their skill is just high, but the reward of gear will also push others to reach to that level.
 

1 hour ago, DeannaVoyager said:

The same people are really funny too: they talk about how they want challenging content, yet they are the first ones to equip better gear than the rest of the raiding community. Sounds to me they only want a challenge for the rest of the raiding community, not for themselves. 

Same falacy as above, if they want a challenge for the rest of the community why would they carry friends or give lockouts for free? Sales always happened, and sales happen because people want things without putting in the work. Giving gear freely encourages the behavior of wanting things without putting in the work.

 

1 hour ago, DeannaVoyager said:

Beats me why BW let's sale run teams benefit from it and sell their credits to gold sellers instead of just putting the stuff on vendor for everyone to buy and use it as a really easy credit sink.

That would be the worst move in the history of the game, imagine a new player reaching level 80 and needing to pay billions for gear when if they are lucky have more than 10m instead of being able to get BiS gear like any other mmo. And it would more than likely actually worsen the situation with credit sellers because more people would want to buy credits



 

[LEEscoundral]

Frankly i think the gearing being shaped by and for the .001 % of the 'Nim' community  dosn't promote community and inclusion. It encourages exclusion and elitism in endgame progression. Ultimately this will probably cost subscriptions when people encounter these kind of attitudes..

[Exly]

How do you know what other people need?  You seem to assume that because you might not need it that no-one does. 

Allowing an attainable pathway to the best gear for everyone that wants it benefits the game because more people are encouraged to venture into harder content when they have it.

Edited October 6, 2022 by Exly

[ZUHFB]

6 hours ago, LEEscoundral said:

Frankly i think the gearing being shaped by and for the .001 % of the 'Nim' community  dosn't promote community and inclusion. It encourages exclusion and elitism in endgame progression. Ultimately this will probably cost subscriptions when people encounter these kind of attitudes..

Good thing that this isn't the case, the games population is around 10k so there isn't even a 0.001%. I've said it many times and people said that it's just speculation, but truthfully, I don't see anybody proving me wrong: As an experienced NiM player I think I can say that I know the community well and I can say that the number of people that have 340 is around 3 to 5% of the games population which is absolutely fine. As I said I've calculated it before. 

4 hours ago, Exly said:

How do you know what other people need?  You seem to assume that because you might not need it that no-one does. 

Allowing an attainable pathway to the best gear for everyone that wants it benefits the game because more people are encouraged to venture into harder content when they have it.

How do I know that? Oh easy, people do not need 340 for IP-CPT since they cannot have it before, it's just not how that works. If you need 340 for IP-CPT the issue isn't the gear. 

Or, or hear me out - you could encourage participation by having the new raid give the best gear? Honestly that's also just not how that works, if people have 340 before R-4 all that happens is they will not enter it, why would they? They already have BiS, this is what happened to Dxun HM. 

All this is, is another thread "I can't get shiny bioware pls fix". Stop wanting free gear handouts like in 6.X.

[DeannaVoyager]

13 hours ago, ZUHFB said:

Well first of all the character credit cap is too low to do that, 2nd there would be a giant ****storm if a piece of 340 gear would be sold for 25b at a vendor?

Not like it would matter, let's be real. If a team struggles to do R-4 in 330 not only are they not good enough, they also wouldn't do it in full 340. 

 

Yes, obviously nobody needs 340. But it should be in the game as the reward to beat challenging content. Sure, there are sales but they have been there for YEARS. A sale doesn't devalue actually beating the boss legit at all. Literally who cares.

 

Who said vendor price would be 25b? Only you, and you pulled that number out of your hat. Or are you maybe suggesting that sale teams control BW and decide vendor prices for them...? 

 

To your question "who cares". Obviously you and people like you care. You want "challenge" for everyone else, not for yourself. 

[DeannaVoyager]

12 hours ago, xxSHOONYxx said:

That would be the worst move in the history of the game, imagine a new player reaching level 80 and needing to pay billions for gear when if they are lucky have more than 10m instead of being able to get BiS gear like any other mmo. And it would more than likely actually worsen the situation with credit sellers because more people would want to buy credits



 

 

Just because sale run teams made up an arbitrary number for a full gearing run, doesn't mean BW would use their prices if/when the mods can be purchased from vendor. The numbers you are using as an example are something you made up, something the sale teams made up. They are not a fact. As long as you keep making up "facts" to support your opinion this conversation isn't going anywhere. 

 

 

 

 

[ZUHFB]

Well, that is the current price and you previously made the point that people are buying gear and thus it's worthless and not a reward for doing challenging content since people can buy it. But the price is 25b per Token, you actually have to pay 50b since two tokens drop per boss. So then bioware would have to make a vendor that sells them for 25b if all you want is to eliminate the sellers out of the equation. 

Oh wait, 25b for a full gearing run? I must have misread, you misunderstand. It's not 25b for a FULLGEAR run, it's 25b PER PIECE. So full gear costs ~3x LEGACY cargo credit cap (3x 100b). I hope this proves that while sale runs do exist they are never bought for gear, always for achievements. Sale runs do not hurt the economy, they do not harm anybody, they existed for years but for some reason it became a problem now, after bioware already did multiple steps to combat these runs (no masterlooter, no crystals etc.), but hey - what do I, a guy who planned and then later helped other people in their sales for years, know about sale runs? 

And yes, you are right! I want a challenge for everybody and not only me? You want to know why? Sisters in 7.0 (not 7.1) was REALLY hard, only two teams of the entire raiding community killed it. Eclipse and Failure (Parsely - Guild Leaderboard) I am in Eclipse and I had a BLAST doing this boss, but content that only 20 people can beat is just not very good for the game and I have come to the realization that if content is tough for me it's not good for the game. Sounds very cringe but that is the reality of the situation. 

[LEEscoundral]

 In other words the filthy rich get filthy richer and control the economy...

[JediQuaker]

People in this thread seem to have a hard time distinguishing between the ideas of "need" and "want". 🙄 

[JakRoanin]

 

30 minutes ago, JediQuaker said:

People in this thread seem to have a hard time distinguishing between the ideas of "need" and "want". 🙄 

Please, this game is the ultimate definition of want! Not one person on this planet needs this game. If people are willing to pay the Sub, then they should have easy access to Maax gear!

[ZUHFB]

39 minutes ago, JakRoanin said:

Please, this game is the ultimate definition of want! Not one person on this planet needs this game. If people are willing to pay the Sub, then they should have easy access to Maax gear!

Absolutely not. This is terrible game design? Why bother doing anything if there is no reward? If everybody has gear it's just no longer rewarding OR shiny because everybody has it. The most important thing in a world were everybody can look the same, be the same is that you can distinguish yourself from the crowd. A sub enables everybody to get everything, it's like saying "well I want a gold flair because I pay a sub too!" it makes no sense, the entire value of the thing is bound to the fact NOT everybody can have it. 

[xxSHOONYxx]

7 hours ago, DeannaVoyager said:

 

Just because sale run teams made up an arbitrary number for a full gearing run, doesn't mean BW would use their prices if/when the mods can be purchased from vendor. The numbers you are using as an example are something you made up, something the sale teams made up. They are not a fact. As long as you keep making up "facts" to support your opinion this conversation isn't going anywhere. 

 

 

 

 

The cconversation will never get anywhere becacuse there will be always people that just want things with no effort. Games get so boring if everything would be so easy to achieve, you would have no goals, no desires, nothing to motivate and drive you and end up boring and quiting games. Its not an abirtraty number, what price would bioware give a credit sink when even the cheapest items on gtn are worth millions, if i don't have biochem by buying medpacs/stims/adrenals of the gnt i can probably spend around the 50-100m credits for one operation. Or when their last credit sink event had even tokens that were worth 150m credits. You are still so against sale teams that you still dont realize that if everyone put in the effort to get good sale teams would not exist, the sale team target is the people that want everything NOW or they want things without the effort of getting better. Even if 340 gear was handed out when you create a new character for free sales will still happen because people would still want titles or mounts without putting in the effort. 

[JakRoanin]

1 hour ago, ZUHFB said:

Absolutely not. This is terrible game design? Why bother doing anything if there is no reward? If everybody has gear it's just no longer rewarding OR shiny because everybody has it. The most important thing in a world were everybody can look the same, be the same is that you can distinguish yourself from the crowd. A sub enables everybody to get everything, it's like saying "well I want a gold flair because I pay a sub too!" it makes no sense, the entire value of the thing is bound to the fact NOT everybody can have it. 

Thanks for ignoring my point. Combat gear shouldn't be a reward that's called pay-to-win. You want to be distinguished from the crowd you got wings.

[xxSHOONYxx]

20 minutes ago, JakRoanin said:

Thanks for ignoring my point. Combat gear shouldn't be a reward that's called pay-to-win. You want to be distinguished from the crowd you got wings.

It seems you have no idea what pay to win is or you have never actually played a pay to win game and how disgusting they are. No one swiped the credit card to get that gear, they just used time dedication and skill. Second you don't win with gear you win with skill, third "winning" is a pvp thing and pvp gear is capped for everyone to have the same gear yet people with skill just dump on those with gear and no skill. Even if pve scene was competitive with rewards for "race for world first" it would still be done with 330 gear like with r4 hm. You could argue people that buy runs "pay to win" but at the end of the day people that pay for runs just take a shortcut and will be bad until they put in the dedication to get better and than handing out free gear or taking out the motivation to get better will just make sale teams thrive

You pay a subscription to be able to do whatever kind of content you want to do without restrictions, you are not entitled to the top rewards of each content just becacuse you pay the subscription. Games without something to chase after become stale very fast

[JakRoanin]

22 minutes ago, xxSHOONYxx said:

It seems you have no idea what pay to win is or you have never actually played a pay to win game and how disgusting they are. No one swiped the credit card to get that gear, they just used time dedication and skill. Second you don't win with gear you win with skill, third "winning" is a pvp thing and pvp gear is capped for everyone to have the same gear yet people with skill just dump on those with gear and no skill. Even if pve scene was competitive with rewards for "race for world first" it would still be done with 330 gear like with r4 hm. You could argue people that buy runs "pay to win" but at the end of the day people that pay for runs just take a shortcut and will be bad until they put in the dedication to get better and than handing out free gear or taking out the motivation to get better will just make sale teams thrive

You pay a subscription to be able to do whatever kind of content you want to do without restrictions, you are not entitled to the top rewards of each content just becacuse you pay the subscription. Games without something to chase after become stale very fast

Here's two things I don't understand about the argument ...

1. If gear makes no difference and its all about skill, why is it considered worth the chase?

2. Why are people determined that only the best should have the best gear so rude to people who disagree, when they admit they don't need it.

It makes no sense except to make casual or people with limitations feel inferior.

[AdjeYo]

11 minutes ago, JakRoanin said:

Here's two things I don't understand about the argument ...

1. If gear makes no difference and its all about skill, why is it considered worth the chase?

2. Why are people determined that only the best should have the best gear so rude to people who disagree, when they admit they don't need it.

It makes no sense except to make casual or people with limitations feel inferior.

1. A marginal increase is still an increase. It's fun to continually keep getting a little better. The current system of gearing provides that for everyone. A 6.0 style of progression eliminates this from nim raiding. 

 

2. Some people are rude on the internet. Constant allegations of elitism and implications that people only want such a system because they want to make others feel inferior certainly doesn't help though. 

[JakRoanin]

5 minutes ago, AdjeYo said:

1. A marginal increase is still an increase. It's fun to continually keep getting a little better. The current system of gearing provides that for everyone. A 6.0 style of progression eliminates this from nim raiding. 

 

2. Some people are rude on the internet. Constant allegations of elitism and implications that people only want such a system because they want to make others feel inferior certainly doesn't help though. 

1. This first point proves that the gear does in fact, matter. So, people insisting that it doesn't are not being honest.

2. The second point is no excuse for the snide superiority against anyone who disagrees. These people are elitists and cruel. 

[ZUHFB]

1 hour ago, JakRoanin said:

Thanks for ignoring my point. Combat gear shouldn't be a reward that's called pay-to-win. You want to be distinguished from the crowd you got wings.

But.... but you can buy wings too....? They are cheaper and I'd encourage people to buy that because you actually get something for your credits...

[ZUHFB]

47 minutes ago, JakRoanin said:

Here's two things I don't understand about the argument ...

1. If gear makes no difference and its all about skill, why is it considered worth the chase?

2. Why are people determined that only the best should have the best gear so rude to people who disagree, when they admit they don't need it.

It makes no sense except to make casual or people with limitations feel inferior.

To clarify your two points: 

1. Gear is not the driving difference, yes it will make a difference of course, but it will not help a clicker with 25 APM kill IP-CPT which is the entire point basically.

2. I'm not a here to make someone my friend, most of the people on the forums claim to be solo players anyway, so why should I try?

I don't understand why you feel inferior because you have less gear, if it bothers you that much just get the gear or realize that you cannot have the gear since it requires effort to get it which obviously some people aren't willing, or cannot, put in. But in my opinion once you make the decision that the new gear isn't worth improving, isn't worth getting a raidteam or some other reason you lose the right to the gear since someone isn't willing to put in the time, or the effort. Other people are willing to do that and they do get rewarded, factually R-4 doesn't offer much more than gear. The mount is probably a safedrop from NiM anyway so isn't really worth spending HOURS grinding it just for a 5% drop chance and the character title is legacy wide so it's not that impressive either, R-4 would already be dead without 340. 

[JakRoanin]

5 minutes ago, ZUHFB said:

To clarify your two points: 

1. Gear is not the driving difference, yes it will make a difference of course.

 

You just made the point why everyone should have it, it does make a difference. 

[xxSHOONYxx]

5 minutes ago, JakRoanin said:

1. This first point proves that the gear does in fact, matter. So, people insisting that it doesn't are not being honest.

2. The second point is no excuse for the snide superiority against anyone who disagrees. These people are elitists and cruel. 

340 gear does not matter when it comes to getting better, it's simply a reward for your effort and time.
340 gear does more damage than 330? Yes roughly 7% more or so!
Is 340 gear requiered to clear any type of content? No.
Someone with "sm skill" will clear hm operations with 340 gear? No.
Is top gear an incentive for people? Of course it is, or some people wouldn't be complaining to make it accessible for everyone without effort. Some try to get better at the game, others want it for free

Some people need to be honest with themselves and if they can't clear something is simply beacuse they still have room to grow and not blame it on gear. Which is no insult whatsoever either, everyone started from the bottom, you, me and even the best players on this game. Like it or not group content is a good way for bioware to promote itself on platforms like twitch, you had thousand of people looking for the meme of  "race of world first r4", you have several hundred people tuning in for pve races/pvp events, and outside of swotorista that is the only one that constalty does +100 viewers everyone and their mom is tired of watching the 19156489th class story stream which ends up with low viewership, and for new people that check on twitch before knowing if they should play or not low viewers is not a good indicative. 

There is a big difference between elitist and cruel and wanting a good game designe. I want the game to do good, i like the game, i wish the game did better at teaching newer players to improve, and you have every right to play the game the way you want to play and the aspect ofthe game you want to play, but you can't expect to get freely what is in the game to motivate or encourage others.

[JakRoanin]

9 minutes ago, xxSHOONYxx said:

340 gear does not matter when it comes to getting better, it's simply a reward for your effort and time.
340 gear does more damage than 330? Yes roughly 7% more or so!
Is 340 gear requiered to clear any type of content? No.
Someone with "sm skill" will clear hm operations with 340 gear? No.
Is top gear an incentive for people? Of course it is, or some people wouldn't be complaining to make it accessible for everyone without effort. Some try to get better at the game, others want it for free

7% is not a tiny thing, its major! So, people need to stop saying "it doesn't matter?" When did I say I or anyone should get gear for 'free'? I didn't. Finally, that 7% more damage would make it possible for someone like me, with major physical problems do my regular content more comfortably and maybe do more VET content.

[xxSHOONYxx]

12 minutes ago, JakRoanin said:

7% is not a tiny thing, its major! So, people need to stop saying "it doesn't matter?" When did I say I or anyone should get gear for 'free'? I didn't. Finally, that 7% more damage would make it possible for someone like me, with major physical problems do my regular content more comfortably and maybe do more VET content.

Sorry for your issues, but there is still a MAJOR difference between the 7% of someone doing 30k dps that ends up with 32.1k dps and 7% of someone doing 10k that ends up with 10.7k dps (not saying you do that). Learning your class and rotation will make a 50-100-200-300% damage increase of someones current dps instead of a 7% dps increase through gear keeping whatever you are doing wrong unchanged.
As for free, any gear system from 4.0 to 6.0 is bascially free gear, getting bis with no effort. 

[JakRoanin]

47 minutes ago, xxSHOONYxx said:

Sorry for your issues, but there is still a MAJOR difference between the 7% of someone doing 30k dps that ends up with 32.1k dps and 7% of someone doing 10k that ends up with 10.7k dps (not saying you do that). Learning your class and rotation will make a 50-100-200-300% damage increase of someones current dps instead of a 7% dps increase through gear keeping whatever you are doing wrong unchanged.
As for free, any gear system from 4.0 to 6.0 is bascially free gear, getting bis with no effort. 

No, the major difference is when that extra 7% lets a person play more without as much pain and physical effort.

[Exly]

50 minutes ago, xxSHOONYxx said:

Sorry for your issues, but there is still a MAJOR difference between the 7% of someone doing 30k dps that ends up with 32.1k dps and 7% of someone doing 10k that ends up with 10.7k dps (not saying you do that). Learning your class and rotation will make a 50-100-200-300% damage increase of someones current dps instead of a 7% dps increase through gear keeping whatever you are doing wrong unchanged.
As for free, any gear system from 4.0 to 6.0 is bascially free gear, getting bis with no effort. 

How about instead of using 10k as an example you use a real world example.  

Here's my example.  Yesterday it was announced in one of the discord servers that I am subscribed to that the parse minimum for NiM ops was increasing from 26k to 28k.  In that case, someone able to do 7% more damage would allow for an 1.820 point increase to a person who parses 26k in 330 gear, bringing their total to 27,820.  That is only 180 points short of the required lower limit.  

Now you can argue that the limit is arbitrary, and yada yada, as so forth.  Or you can argue that people shouldn't do NiM ops if they can't do 28k in 330 gear.  There are obviously a lot of "to bad for you" arguments that can be made to justify the position that only better players deserve better gear.  But in my opinion, the guy who does 26k deserves the gear just as much as the next guy, and keeping it from those people is not good for the game if it keeps the player base that has access to the harder content from people who want to participate in it, but can only do so if they have access to the gear.