Planned Balance Changes for 7.1.1

[Loc_n_lol]

Chess is

White is OP, black needs a buff, give them an extra pawn or something.

Edited September 3, 2022 by Loc_n_lol

[SpikeSaber]

Keep in mind, that the point of the game for people to have fun, and the changes you are making to classes going to demolish that fun from the spec. Even thou lightning is currently in a decent spot, still if I go to do Gods from the machine, ill bring PT cause its way more useful.

 

You guys asked for feedback, we gave it to you, please listen to it. If you think lightning is that strong that requires nerf, please be my guest log in as sorc go to any master mode raid and do it, and tell me whether it actually deserves to be nerfed. Once again, we are the ones that playing the game, not you. So please listen to our feedback that we posted earlier and make some rational changes. Nowadays even Blizzard learned from their mistakes and starting to listen to community feedback. Honestly if all these specs would be viable for all nim content without having an issues to pass specific phases, I wouldnt mind seeing it nerfed, but your current balance changes, aint balacing anything only making specs useless to play. What is the point of new gear,operations nerfs, if u just gonna nerf the specs to the ground aswell? Just keep the power creep and people will enjoy the game more, its not ike this game is full of elitist raiders who want to suffer in legacy nims like Gods in 7.0.

[ZUHFB]

Keep in mind, that the point of the game for people to have fun, and the changes you are making to classes going to demolish that fun from the spec. Even thou lightning is currently in a decent spot, still if I go to do Gods from the machine, ill bring PT cause its way more useful.

 

You guys asked for feedback, we gave it to you, please listen to it. If you think lightning is that strong that requires nerf, please be my guest log in as sorc go to any master mode raid and do it, and tell me whether it actually deserves to be nerfed. Once again, we are the ones that playing the game, not you. So please listen to our feedback that we posted earlier and make some rational changes. Nowadays even Blizzard learned from their mistakes and starting to listen to community feedback. Honestly if all these specs would be viable for all nim content without having an issues to pass specific phases, I wouldnt mind seeing it nerfed, but your current balance changes, aint balacing anything only making specs useless to play. What is the point of new gear,operations nerfs, if u just gonna nerf the specs to the ground aswell? Just keep the power creep and people will enjoy the game more, its not ike this game is full of elitist raiders who want to suffer in legacy nims like Gods in 7.0.

 

I disagree, the changes to sorc will make the spec more fun - worse, but more fun.

[sithBracer]

Chess is

 

You're just wrong. White always has the advantage, esp in NiM chess, because it moves first. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-move_advantage_in_chess. Rock, paper, scissors is the only game where none of the 3 have an advantage over the other.

 

There will always be a meta. If you are not meta, chances are you will not be wanted in a high end progression raid group. If your classes are not first, they might as well be last, because there is no reason to take them over the first class.

[Bullyabass]

Lightning / Telekinesis

• Reverberating Force - Critical hit damage bonus has been reduced to 12% down from 15%.
  
• Thundering Blast - Second arc of damage deals 20% of Turbulence's damage down from 25%.
  
• Storm watch damage decreased by 4%
  
• Halted Offensive cast time increased from 2.5 seconds to 3.0 seconds. Alacrity still affects cast time.
  
• Decrease Halted Offensive damage by 15%.
  
• Convection - Thundering Blast grants Reserved Darkness, making Dark Heal an instant cast and increasing its healing by 30%. Stacks up to 2 times.
  

 

This makes no sense at all

 

Lightning is doing below average dmg, if anything it needs a boost

[AdjeYo]

You're just wrong. White always has the advantage, esp in NiM chess, because it moves first. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-move_advantage_in_chess. Rock, paper, scissors is the only game where none of the 3 have an advantage over the other.

 

There will always be a meta. If you are not meta, chances are you will not be wanted in a high end progression raid group. If your classes are not first, they might as well be last, because there is no reason to take them over the first class.

 

Actually chess is played with players alternating colours, so white's advantage is irrelevant. Even then, a perfectly played chess game is a draw. So chess is indeed, pretty much perfectly balanced. (Even if you only play a single match, white would be assigned with a 50/50 probability, giving both players the same winning odds). And it and rock, paper, scissors are hardly the only games perfectly balanced. But that's besides the point, I never argued that swtor should (or even can) have perfect balance. The only way to make that happen would be to make 1 healer, 1 dps, 1 tank, but that would obviously be horrible.

 

However I strongly, strongly disagree with your last point. If a class isn't technically the optimal choice, it can (and will) absolutely be played, even in progression raiding, as long as it's close enough. That is why striving for some sort of balance is crucial. Because it keeps those classes playable, especially at higher levels of play. If your only goal is to clear everything as fast as possible no matter what, sure you're only bringing number one classes. But for a lot of people (I'd wager most), class preference absolutely matters. And there's many, many, progression groups that run sub optimal classes because it's more fun for them. This is why balance is important, and it's not all about what is meta. It's about having all classes be reasonably close, and capable of clearing all content.

[bogbogbog]

This makes no sense at all

 

Lightning is doing below average dmg, if anything it needs a boost

 

How does it need a boost? Its currently top ranged spec in damage on single target, pretty much top5 overall, while on their metrics ranged burst should be below ranged dot specs and melee burst specs. Not even mentioning it does more damage than some melee dot specs. Yeah i know its doing more on "dummy" but still. It doesnt need a boost, its need a nerf, only question is how much. Madness, engineering, virulence and io should do more damage than lightning, thats why its going to be nerfed.

Overperforming (meta) specs - is a different problem. They should be "balanced" after this patch.

Edited September 3, 2022 by bogbogbog

[Chryptyk]

Again, only 2 or 3 classes will be meta AS I EXPLAINED. The rest is simply worse but changing this meta is balancing, not trying to do the impossible. You cannot have a balanced game, you cannot know how a balanced game feels like so you can't even have that opinion. If you think ANY game is balanced you simply aren't good enough yet. No game is balanced.

 

We know that something will always be meta. Previously, it didn't really matter though. The current condition is forcing us to play metas to get stuff done is the issue. A lot of people don't wanna do that. The imbalance in the past has been manageable. The reason people are up in arms now is because the proposed changes will not fix the current huge imbalance. The approach to balance we have been offered won't bring any sort of balance at all. We accept that there will never be a perfect balance. However, we do expect that things are balanced enough that we can do anything with any composition we want, without relying on the meta.

[Sarova]

Regarding the huge lightning sorc nerf:

Could you please explain why you think this class needs a nerf at all? In my opinion this makes absolutely no sense - To be honest, it seems that you don't know your own game.

At the moment, halted offensive must be hardcasted on cooldown to make average damage compared to other (mostly melee) specs, which already removed alot of mobility of the class compared to 6.x

No lightning sorc likes long casts but it was the only rotation to make enough dmg to be worth taking into a raid.

Now you nerf the spec from medium tier into the low performing tier - I think lightning will face the same fate as merc with those nerfs.

If you want us all to play only melee dot classes then just remove all other specs from game.

 

I too would like this answered.

 

Lightning is both my main's spec and favourite spec and it seems like they've been failing it for the decade. It's so long ago since lightning was perfect that I can't remember (might have been just after the furore with KotFE).

 

The nerfs to lightning make absolutely no sense at all for any style of gameplay - I'm glad you added the Ops/Raid perspective WoRei as I don't do Ops so I was wondering if lightning was so overpowered in raids it was making the other classes look like lowbie area trash mobs so a nerf on that basis would make sense. Not that thought.

Our most powerful abilities are long casts or channelled. Stormwatch tactical offers a little extra damage but it's not that brilliant. Our defensive capabilities in PvP are pretty poor (which me and others fed back in 7.0 PTS) - we still get stun-locked in PvP during which we're killed in 2 shots by ranged shooters or burst melee because our long cooldowns are still cooling down.

If you want to nerf, fine; now remove the debuff from static barriers we place on ourselves and reduce the cooldown of force barrier to 60/90 seconds.

Edited September 3, 2022 by Sarova

[Robonthecob]

Honestly the entire conceptualization of balance being Melee dot>ranged dot = melee burst>ranged burst is pretty stupid. Not because it's unfair in principle, but because it is terribly unfair, and unfun in execution. Dot specs should edge out burst, but not to the point where burst specs are unviable. There are currently many instances of specs being unviable, and they do not even follow the balance profile. Madness is worse than lightning, but nerfing lightning does not make either competitive (not to mention madness is also getting a roundabout nerf). There should be a whole let less worry about creating an over blown tier list based on role, and more focus on allowing players to play what they like, in whatever form of content they engage in. As a rule of thumb utility shouldn't impact throughput, but right now, utility is so out of balance, that coupled with the massive dps spread, there are some specs that are simply the right answer to most problems the game presents. That is a failure of game design, in a game where there are so many different specs. Viability should be the baseline for all classes in the game. Some might perform certain roles better or worse, but the delta from top to bottom should never be such that the bottom classes cannot clear content, even with hyper optimized groups of skilled players, because they are that bad. Lightning honestly should be the floor, right now. Everything below it should probably be buffed, not lightning nerfed.

 

The halted offensive gameplay loop is bad, no one likes hardcasting HOs, but, that should be accomplished through a longer cast time, and compensatory buffs, not four additional nerfs. Specs that have no utility, no damage niche, NEED to be buffed, so there is a reason to bring them to content. Player's have preferences, and those preferences shouldn't make them automatically ineligible to play the game. If there is one thing to take away from my rambling, VIABILITY SHOULD BE THE BASELINE

[WoRei]

Suuuuuurrrreeee you do. I remember for the last 10 years when assassin was in the trash you were fighting for that equality every day ... oh right, you couldn't care less.

 

Funny how you champion the fight for equality only now ...

 

As someone already mentioned, you can do any of the legacy NiM ops with almost any spec other than arsenal and marksman. And as someone else pointed you, sorc can still be used in R-4. Just admit you want your class on top, no one is buying the "equality" nonsense.

 

What exactly is wrong with you? In which world is sorc at the top at the moment? Maybe in your fantasy world ...

So you are fighting to nerf a b-tier spec which is already "irrelevant" for nim raids (as other players pointed out)? You must be some "special" kind of player

[WoRei]

In IP-CPT lightning is still an avarage class, but you will never see it on top dps because they will be clicking panels since they have no taunt while still be able to hit from afar some skills. Unless you know the floor pattern hardcasting HO won;t always be an option but you can use 6.0 rotation and be very mobile.

 

In watchdog ranged are requiered, most groups use only 2 melee or 3 if they blow up the first cirle, in fact the top parse in hm is from a lightning sorc.

 

In kanoth ranged classes are very good too, especially with a self cleanse if the healers are falling behind but in that fight is hard to see dps because those people doing a lot of damage are usually the ones that never clean tiles, barely do or don't self cleanse. And ranged help a lot to get the special achievement of the fight.

 

In Dominique sorc is probably the best ranged, with phase walk you dont have to worry about the first two knocks on first phase and you dont nead to go down for watchdog or anything and if that isn't enough you can stay afk if your group has a juggernaut and is a kill. You will never see in top parse on dominique a sorc or any other class because anything that is not a jug will probably not show.

 

Sorc while not being one of the top meta clases it still has it uses and totally requiered in some fights like Styrak, Izax or Huntmaster.

 

That doesn't mean that i want sorc nerfed, my issue with the nerfs is that if they went overboard with the hp reduction of ops and now they are nerfing dps because of it they also need to nerf marauder and juggernaut, or just buff marskman arsenal and leave the others like they are now until raid utility and tactials can be changed to make it more fair

 

Yeah, you can use lightning at the moment, but it is far from overperforming - so why nerf it? - With the nerfs it will be in the same state as arsenal. lightning brings no raid utility to a team, so why bring it when it does not make dmg either.

As you pointed out, it would be better to buff 2 or 3 classes which are at the bottom at the moment and maybe slightly nerf the dps of the other 2 of the 3 at the top (PT gets a slight nerf, but mara, jugg will stay thhe same).

[AdjeYo]

What exactly is wrong with you? In which world is sorc at the top at the moment? Maybe in your fantasy world ...

So you are fighting to nerf a b-tier spec which is already "irrelevant" for nim raids (as other players pointed out)? You must be some "special" kind of player

 

I'm sorry irrelevant to ops? It's the best ranged spec for ops, hands down. It outdamages Anni and Vengeance on single target, that just ain't right for a ranged burst class to have more sustained dps than sustained melee classes.

 

Equally important would be adressing some of the overperformers (Anni heals, PTs, Sins, Fury mara) and bringing up some underperformers (Merc dps, Marksmanship, Virulence, Madness). But Lightning is absolutely part of the overperformers, and can stand to get knocked down around 2k dps.

[Iffyluse]

Don't you people have alts?

 

I mean... Gear is legacy bound. Just use the meta class, it's not like anyone who has played this game for years doesn't have 20+ alts....

 

Being an "X" main is cringe.

[WoRei]

How does it need a boost? Its currently top ranged spec in damage on single target, pretty much top5 overall, while on their metrics ranged burst should be below ranged dot specs and melee burst specs. Not even mentioning it does more damage than some melee dot specs. Yeah i know its doing more on "dummy" but still. It doesnt need a boost, its need a nerf, only question is how much. Madness, engineering, virulence and io should do more damage than lightning, thats why its going to be nerfed.

Overperforming (meta) specs - is a different problem. They should be "balanced" after this patch.

 

Could you please explain why AoE dot classes should do more dmg on a SINGLE target than a ranged burst class that only can do single target dps (lightning with HO is only capable of single target dmg)? That makes absolutely no sense.

[WoRei]

I'm sorry irrelevant to ops? It's the best ranged spec for ops, hands down. It outdamages Anni and Vengeance on single target, that just ain't right for a ranged burst class to have more sustained dps than sustained melee classes.

 

Equally important would be adressing some of the overperformers (Anni heals, PTs, Sins, Fury mara) and bringing up some underperformers (Merc dps, Marksmanship, Virulence, Madness). But Lightning is absolutely part of the overperformers, and can stand to get knocked down around 2k dps.

 

Ah, thats why everybody is telling sorcs that they should better bring a PT or mara to the raid because they are so good ;-)

You are always talking about single target dmg - how many bosses are there with no adds and alone? not so many. How is the dps parse on bosses with adds? You will never find a sorc on top of that but because it can outdamage anni (not fury, you forgot to mention) on single target, it must be nerfed to arsenal lol

Maybe they are the best ranged (!) spec but thats because the other range specs are too weak and need buffs (sorcs do not need buffs but also no nerfs)!

I have seen so many mercs rerolling PT, mara in 7.x - now sorcs should do the same?

Edited September 3, 2022 by WoRei

[Deaconik]

Honestly the entire conceptualization of balance being Melee dot>ranged dot = melee burst>ranged burst is pretty stupid. Not because it's unfair in principle, but because it is terribly unfair, and unfun in execution. Dot specs should edge out burst, but not to the point where burst specs are unviable. There are currently many instances of specs being unviable, and they do not even follow the balance profile. Madness is worse than lightning, but nerfing lightning does not make either competitive (not to mention madness is also getting a roundabout nerf). There should be a whole let less worry about creating an over blown tier list based on role, and more focus on allowing players to play what they like, in whatever form of content they engage in. As a rule of thumb utility shouldn't impact throughput, but right now, utility is so out of balance, that coupled with the massive dps spread, there are some specs that are simply the right answer to most problems the game presents. That is a failure of game design, in a game where there are so many different specs. Viability should be the baseline for all classes in the game. Some might perform certain roles better or worse, but the delta from top to bottom should never be such that the bottom classes cannot clear content, even with hyper optimized groups of skilled players, because they are that bad. Lightning honestly should be the floor, right now. Everything below it should probably be buffed, not lightning nerfed.

 

The halted offensive gameplay loop is bad, no one likes hardcasting HOs, but, that should be accomplished through a longer cast time, and compensatory buffs, not four additional nerfs. Specs that have no utility, no damage niche, NEED to be buffed, so there is a reason to bring them to content. Player's have preferences, and those preferences shouldn't make them automatically ineligible to play the game. If there is one thing to take away from my rambling, VIABILITY SHOULD BE THE BASELINE

All operation bosses except R-4 recently got 10 % hp nerf, so these changes won't change viability.

2 out of 4 bosses in R4 require heavy range group or at least 2 ranged DPS. I don't see the issue of viability as much as the fact that nerfing is bad and it woudl be better to bring up the underpefroming classes up instead.

[bogbogbog]

Could you please explain why AoE dot classes should do more dmg on a SINGLE target than a ranged burst class that only can do single target dps (lightning with HO is only capable of single target dmg)? That makes absolutely no sense.

Because one is dot spec and other one is burst spec. Thats the reason arsenal is on dead bottom now. Dot class should do more damage on single target as sustained spec vs burst spec.

[AdjeYo]

Ah, thats why everybody is telling sorcs that they should better bring a PT or mara to the raid because they are so good ;-)

You are always talking about single target dmg - how many bosses are there with no adds and alone? not so many. How is the dps parse on bosses with adds? You will never find a sorc on top of that but because it can outdamage anni (not fury, you forgot to mention) on single target, it must be nerfed to arsenal lol

Maybe they are the best ranged (!) spec but thats because the other range specs are too weak and need buffs (sorcs do not need buffs but also no nerfs)!

I have seen so many mercs rerolling PT, mara in 7.x - now sorcs should do the same?

 

You will never find a sorc on top of that but because it can outdamage anni (not fury, you forgot to mention) on single target, it must be nerfed to arsenal lol

Watchdog VM, top parse on parsely? Oh it's a Lightning sorc! So that turns out to be a damn lie.

 

Also funny that you compare it to Fury, when I specifically said Fury needs a nerf too in the very post you quoted.

 

Who's telling you to roll PT or Mara? R4 first boss, you bring at least one sorc (you won't see them topping charts because they will definitely be on console duty, but Lightning is very strong there). Second boss Lightning is your top parsing dps spec (why bother brining pesky melees that have to huddle up with circles, when you can play a ranged and still out dps them). Third boss is a bit kinder to melee. Still every group will bring 1 Lightning sorc at least, too many melees is still a problem. And they're still among the top parsing specs (which a ranged burst spec by design should never be). Last boss is a bit of an AoE fest, and since Vengeance AoE is OP it's all Vengeance there.

 

Anyone that tells you not to play Sorc in ops is a fool. It's an absolute must to have one on your team if you want to prog R4 hm.

[RapmasterWillyC]

As someone who almost exclusively plays PvP, I’d like to say it’s unwise to implement minor dps nerfs to almost every class and minor healing buffs to almost every class in the same patch. These changes should be spread out so that we can more fully understand the ramifications of one adjustment before making another. I personally find the dps nerfs unwarranted; if a few classes are outperforming others I think it would be a more worthwhile and enjoyable improvement to the game if you instead buffed the under-performing classes instead of nerfing their counterparts.

 

It would also be nice to see snipers/gunslingers get some love; as a ranged dps class they cannot out parse other ranged dps classes, are definitively less mobile, have fewer defensives, and no self healing. There seems to be no reason to play this class, at least from a tactical standpoint. I’d love to see it come back in to fold via some large damage or survivability increases. (I’d also like to say that I have not, do not, and will not play sniper/gunslinger; I just think the player base universally agrees they need some love)

[sithBracer]

As someone who almost exclusively plays PvP, I’d like to say it’s unwise to implement minor dps nerfs to almost every class and minor healing buffs to almost every class in the same patch. These changes should be spread out so that we can more fully understand the ramifications of one adjustment before making another. I personally find the dps nerfs unwarranted; if a few classes are outperforming others I think it would be a more worthwhile and enjoyable improvement to the game if you instead buffed the under-performing classes instead of nerfing their counterparts.

 

It would also be nice to see snipers/gunslingers get some love; as a ranged dps class they cannot out parse other ranged dps classes, are definitively less mobile, have fewer defensives, and no self healing. There seems to be no reason to play this class, at least from a tactical standpoint. I’d love to see it come back in to fold via some large damage or survivability increases. (I’d also like to say that I have not, do not, and will not play sniper/gunslinger; I just think the player base universally agrees they need some love)

 

Marksman is pretty bad, but engineering is pretty amazing in warzones. Virulence is very good as well.

 

Solo ranked is where they really have issues, esp. if PTs, maras and lethality operatives are on the enemy team. Not sure if BW is currently balancing for the 2 people who are exclusively playing sniper in solo ranked at this moment.

[LJ_Gibbs]

Don't you people have alts?

 

I mean... Gear is legacy bound. Just use the meta class, it's not like anyone who has played this game for years doesn't have 20+ alts....

 

Being an "X" main is cringe.

 

I remember when Bioware said play YOUR way.

[RapmasterWillyC]

Marksman is pretty bad, but engineering is pretty amazing in warzones. Virulence is very good as well.

 

Solo ranked is where they really have issues, esp. if PTs, maras and lethality operatives are on the enemy team. Not sure if BW is currently balancing for the 2 people who are exclusively playing sniper in solo ranked at this moment.

 

All fair points. Tbh the real point I’d like BioWare to take from my comment is in the first paragraph; that I’d rather see “bad” classes buffed than “good” classes nerfed.

[SpikeSaber]

You will never find a sorc on top of that but because it can outdamage anni (not fury, you forgot to mention) on single target, it must be nerfed to arsenal lol

Watchdog VM, top parse on parsely? Oh it's a Lightning sorc! So that turns out to be a damn lie.

 

Also funny that you compare it to Fury, when I specifically said Fury needs a nerf too in the very post you quoted.

 

Who's telling you to roll PT or Mara? R4 first boss, you bring at least one sorc (you won't see them topping charts because they will definitely be on console duty, but Lightning is very strong there). Second boss Lightning is your top parsing dps spec (why bother brining pesky melees that have to huddle up with circles, when you can play a ranged and still out dps them). Third boss is a bit kinder to melee. Still every group will bring 1 Lightning sorc at least, too many melees is still a problem. And they're still among the top parsing specs (which a ranged burst spec by design should never be). Last boss is a bit of an AoE fest, and since Vengeance AoE is OP it's all Vengeance there.

 

Anyone that tells you not to play Sorc in ops is a fool. It's an absolute must to have one on your team if you want to prog R4 hm.

Lightning is not beter than anni at single target, its very close, but anni is just a little bit better dps wise. That watchdog lightning parse is mine, but its irrelevant, since watchdog takes increased damage, and because of zeal perk sorc performing pretty good in R4 overall(Also its only few sorcs that stand out in R4 not like everyone is able to min max sorc dps output in R4), but for Gods everyone would rather take marauder than sorc. Sorc is currently in good spot, it doesnt need buff or nerf, if they want to get rid of hardcast halted, just change it, but dont nerf sorc by 4k dps, if they are making these changes, sorc lightning is gonna do lower dps than in 7.0 with full 340. Lets say if they nerf it by like 1k dps its totally fine, but there is no way lightning will be viable if it does 28-29k when most of other specs above 32k, it will be just useless like marksman rn

[ebcbrakes]

Lightning is not beter than anni at single target, its very close, but anni is just a little bit better dps wise. That watchdog lightning parse is mine, but its irrelevant, since watchdog takes increased damage, and because of zeal perk sorc performing pretty good in R4 overall(Also its only few sorcs that stand out in R4 not like everyone is able to min max sorc dps output in R4), but for Gods everyone would rather take marauder than sorc. Sorc is currently in good spot, it doesnt need buff or nerf, if they want to get rid of hardcast halted, just change it, but dont nerf sorc by 4k dps, if they are making these changes, sorc lightning is gonna do lower dps than in 7.0 with full 340. Lets say if they nerf it by like 1k dps its totally fine, but there is no way lightning will be viable if it does 28-29k when most of other specs above 32k, it will be just useless like marksman rn

 

trouble is bioware has never in over 10 years listened to anybody except the ranked pvp players as if they sustain the game , personally i hate pvp and the elitist arrogance that goes with most of the people in there , as a raid leader said if you keep dieing an cant kill it just get good an learn to play better , if pvpers are struggling against certain classes maybe they should learn to get good