Planned Balance Changes for 7.1.1

[sicariustenebris]

I was originally planning to go through each proposed change one by one, but I realised since I do not play every class being affected, that I would be unqualified to comment on some aspects of the changes. Nonetheless, I did want to put forth my general feelings in the areas I feel confident speaking about and summarise which things I agree with and which things feel like the wrong direction. Judging from the comments, and from my own perspective:

 

- Concealment/scrapper DPS is slightly underperforming and should overall be increased, the consensus appears to be that this should not involve any nerfs, even in the context of the proposed buffs. I would add that the longer duration for evasion/dodge should probably in my opinion be specifically tied to concealment/scrapper. Lethality/ruffian already has strong survivability in the form of an instant cast healing ability and superior damage reduction.

 

- I don't play operative/scoundrel healer, but looking through the comments it seems that most people agree that the AOE healing ability needed some kind of nerf. I can't really comment further on that other than to agree with the majority.

 

- A substantial Marksmanship/sharpshooter DPS buff is definitely a good thing, but I would add that snipers/gunslingers in general are also substantially lacking in defensive cooldowns. Most of their defensive abilities in previous updates were in the form of utilities, and they are now in the unique position of having to choose between essentially all of their DCDs, in addition to the fact that other DCDs have been outright removed entirely, something the other classes, in my opinion, are less affected by. Some kind of slight increase to passive damage reduction would be a good change in my opinion.

 

- Mercenary/commando healer changes look fine. I believe the other two healing classes were slightly outperforming it, so a slight buff is in order.

 

- I am aware that mercenary/commando DPS was recently buffed for both disciplines, but I think a slight further buff (particularly for arsenal/gunnery) is in order. There is a very convincing argument on Vulkk's website for improving the arsenal/gunnery discipline through slight buffs to the ability tree (https://vulkk.com/2022/06/01/swtor-7-1-arsenal-mercenary-and-gunnery-commando-changes-announcement-and-analysis/).

 

- Advanced prototype/tactics is my main discipline, so I feel most qualified to speak on the proposed changes to this. I think a very slight nerf to this discipline was inevitable and would be fairly justified, if a strong new tactical were to be introduced, since the discipline was performing fairly well in PvP even with no tactical. Not by miles, by marginally.

 

That said, I do think these proposed changes will go way too far. The power burst nerf is probably about right, since in combination with two energy bursts, it was a very powerful damage burst in a small time window. I think reducing magnetic blast/tactical surge's damage (the most frequently used ability) should be done extremely cautiously, especially when considering all the other additional nerfs. 14% is too much, and will impact on the DPS potential of the discipline significantly. I don't think the bleed/DoT damage should be affected at all. (It is possible to accumulate so-called 'fluff' DPS from refreshing the retractable blade DoT with shatter slug, but this accounts for a very negligible portion of the DPS, and, since AP/tactics is considered a single-target burst DPS discipline, this should not factor into their balancing, in my opinion).

 

I also firmly dislike the proposed new tactical. AP/tactics has a root breaker, with increased movement speed with the right utility, on quite a short cooldown, and a leap. I think a 10 second 50% slow is therefore unnecessary and will serve only to annoy people. Additionally, I think having the tactical ability be determined by multiple abilities is a bad idea, since it introduces inconsistency to the buff offered by the tactical and may potentially interfere with and/or complicate the rotation to try and optimise the effect of the tactical by waiting to hit the right ability and, in the case of the free rocket punch, modify the rotation.

 

Personally, I think something more like this would be a better idea:

'Thermal Detonator remains dormant on the target for 12 seconds, and can be detonated by Magnetic Blast, Energy Burst or Rail Shot. When detonated, your Shoulder Cannon missiles each deal 3% more damage for the next 10 seconds.'

This maintains DPS consistency, provides a good burst (I foresee this as: energy burst with power burst > use buffed thermal det > power yield > energy burst > buffed thermal det explodes), doesn't interfere with the rotation, and should nicely compliment existing implant bonuses that add extra shoulder missiles, assuming it also affects them.

 

- I generally like the madness/balance DPS changes, but I think a 50% slow (assuming it lasts the whole duration of death field) is too much. Since I'm assuming this change is primarily made for PvP survivability, I think it would be good for allowing for easier kiting in PvP, but too strong if used to inhibit the kiting potential of other ranged classes. This kind of utility should not be tied to an ability with such a short cooldown, in my opinion, or should have a limit (e.g. can only activate once every 30s).

 

I can't really say much about the other changes, since I don't play the classes enough to know them inside and out, or what buffs/nerfs/changes would be most suitable.

Edited August 31, 2022 by sicariustenebris

[megawarz]

Really more survival for one of the hardest to kill spec in PvP? which is also the best 1v1 by far against any class? Whie snipers still dont have any real defense and anyone can toy with them who knows how to play this game?

 

Yeah operatives…. they can just resist anything in every 8 secs, can have 8 sec instant aoe cc, kepot their stun after 7.0, have one of the highest off heal, one of the most mobile classes, can sleep ppl, can vanish… and even after the dmg nerf they ll still have one of the best burst….

 

I understand every spec has a role in PvP and operative's role is 1v1 but it's been an overkill in 6.0 its an overkill in 7.0 and it'll be even worse after this patch…. Reducing their burst is a very small nerf compared to what they gain for survival….

 

I know you always optimize things for PvE and forget that you got a ton of PvPers and most of them are long lasting money bags, who keep playing and spending on the game. Not just play 1-2 months and leave....

 

You should really make balance changes that don't make PvP balance even worse…..

 

Uh, you pvpers are the reason the changes are happening

[Enomars]

Hello everyone,

 

……..

 

Lightning / Telekinesis

• Reverberating Force - Critical hit damage bonus has been reduced to 12% down from 15%.
  
• Thundering Blast - Second arc of damage deals 20% of Turbulence's damage down from 25%.
  
• Storm watch damage decreased by 4%
  
• Halted Offensive cast time increased from 2.5 seconds to 3.0 seconds. Alacrity still affects cast time.
  
• Decrease Halted Offensive damage by 15%.
  
• Convection - Thundering Blast grants Reserved Darkness, making Dark Heal an instant cast and increasing its healing by 30%. Stacks up to 2 times.
  

……..

 

-Chris

 

Thank you so much for all that you do. It is a lot of hard work and coding.

 

A nerf for sage Telekinesis is not needed. We stink as it is. We are dead center of the pack on DPS and slowing down a cast of Power of the Force AND weakening it just makes us even weaker.

 

PVE perspective Power of the Force cannot be used while moving. So any hard cast abilities while doing mechanics are not useful. So not only can we not do them... even if we do they are weak. (R4 running abound like a chicken LOL)

PVP perspective just means Power of the Force can be interrupted easier.

 

If I have to self heal someone is not doing their job or I am standing in stupid. This is not useful... Though i do like insta cast stuff.

 

I already have 3 self heals. I need to be doing more damage and no healing.

 

Again thanks again for all of your hard work and all of the coding of the development team.

 

-Enomaster

[wonderingjedi]

Hi everyone!

 

 

As a final point, the "Reactive Substance" mod change does not have values since we can't communicate that very well on the forums. But power-wise a single stack of Reactive Substance would be similar to one Kolto Waves tick. You can stack it twice on a single target and get 2x the effect whenever damage is dealt to them.

 

Again, we really appreciate all your feedback! The OP will be updated shortly.

 

Thanks,

-Chris

The reduction in aoe healing was needed for op/scoundrel healing, but the single target reduction in hps is over the top. The amount of healing taken away is too much compared to what they get in return. The reactive substance is way to weak, for an ability that applies the effect is more that one GCD unless you use the tactical that reduces the cast time.

 

1. I would recommend if you are not willing to try anything else to buff reactive substance significantly, or make it tick kolto probes if the target has 2 stacks of probes.

2. You could also do the boring thing and buff kolto probes since the class revolves around them. I find them to be lackluster at the moment with a crit heal from them being around 2.5% of full health on a 400k health target.

[Alaric_Mikaelson]

Hi everyone!

 

We really appreciate all your feedback and have been reading all of it. I just wanted to make a post to clarify somethings accidentally missed in the OP. One is that we missed some Sorcerer / Sage changes, which will be added to the OP in the changes section.

 

The second is the new AP/Tactics Tactical. I accidentally wrote an older design description to that, which has since been changed. The cooldown reset that would have occurred to reset Thermal Detonator now affects Rocket Punch instead. That part of the tactical now reads:

"Energy Burst: The cooldown of Rocket Punch is reset your next Rocket Punch costs no heat."

 

As a final point, the "Reactive Substance" mod change does not have values since we can't communicate that very well on the forums. But power-wise a single stack of Reactive Substance would be similar to one Kolto Waves tick. You can stack it twice on a single target and get 2x the effect whenever damage is dealt to them.

 

Again, we really appreciate all your feedback! The OP will be updated shortly.

 

Thanks,

-Chris!

 

I'm wondering why Lightning Sorc would get a nerf. Even as is, Lightning is a turret spec. We're forced to stand stationary and just fire off from there. God help us if a mechanic or a player in pvp has a lot of interrupts, cc, etc.

 

For YEARS, you guys have kept lightning near the bottom in terms of performance, and I was very proud when 7.0 rolled out, and you guys began to make balance changes that differed from your usual "Just keep Lightning near the bottom" mentality. Now, I feel like you're all going back to that.

 

Don't misunderstand. I have always and will always stick with Lightning. I just don't understand why the need for a nerf.

Edited August 31, 2022 by Alaric_Mikaelson
Quoted the wrong message. LOL

[LordOstrik]

Really more survival for one of the hardest to kill spec in PvP? which is also the best 1v1 by far against any class? Whie snipers still dont have any real defense and anyone can toy with them who knows how to play this game?

 

Yeah operatives…. they can just resist anything in every 8 secs, can have 8 sec instant aoe cc, kepot their stun after 7.0, have one of the highest off heal, one of the most mobile classes, can sleep ppl, can vanish… and even after the dmg nerf they ll still have one of the best burst….

 

I understand every spec has a role in PvP and operative's role is 1v1 but it's been an overkill in 6.0 its an overkill in 7.0 and it'll be even worse after this patch…. Reducing their burst is a very small nerf compared to what they gain for survival….

 

I know you always optimize things for PvE and forget that you got a ton of PvPers and most of them are long lasting money bags, who keep playing and spending on the game. Not just play 1-2 months and leave....

 

You should really make balance changes that don't make PvP balance even worse…..

 

These changes impact PvE significantly more than PvP. The amount of content that will be made unplayable for certain classes and specs for PvE from the suggested changes is actually upsetting to a point that is hard to put into words. Speaking of just the two specs I play primarily, Hatred and Lightning, the removal of the saber strike dot tick from two time trouble will flat out make the spec unviable for endgame PvE content and there is no real good backup rotation other than the 6.0 rotation which is a force deficit rotation, where I end up standing still doing nothing waiting for my force to regen. The changes to lightning make it significantly less viable for fights in PvE that require lots of moving around and the same is true for the PvP application, I will be lucky to get off a full cast of HO without being stunned or interrupted.

[blakkwiddow]

Alright. I'm just going to work through Madness for a second here.

Disintegration - Death Field and Death Brand grant Vitiate's Malice, giving Force Lightning 20% Lifesteal for 12 seconds.

This sounds interesting at first glance, until you look at the CURRENT description for this passive.

 

Conclusion: this is a fairly severe nerf to damage output. Or it would be, except....

 

Force Horrors - Increase periodic damage from 15% to 20%.

Force Horrors is the passive governing disintegration's secondary effect at the moment, so this maybe(?) makes up for some of the change. Losing 15% crit chance on leech and lightning strike still sucks.

 

Lightning Barrage - Force Lightning reduced damage changed to -20% from -25%.

That's just a straight buff. Thanks.

 

Tempest of Rho - Correctly applies 50% chance for Force Lightning to trigger periodic effects down from 75%

And that's a nerf.

 

Conclusion? Eh... hard to say without doing more math than I feel like bothering with. Really wish I could test this.

 

I'm optimistic about the Madness changes... Really wish they could be tested as well. Madness is my main DPS spec. If these changes end up unnecessarily nerfing the spec... I'm going to be upset - to put it nicely.

 

This brings more stress to a key argument others have stressed here too: Stop nerfing DPS. New content DPS checks are currently so high that you HAVE to run certain bosses with 6 DPS in 8m - which is totally fine if the fight's built that way and the healers can take it. Continuing to nerf DPS specs unnecessarily (especially ranged when there are very few that are consistently viable) is a bit beyond ridiculous at this point. Most of the top DPS parses of those uploaded to Parsley are from Vengence Juggs and Fury Marauders. It's funny how all of these nerfs keep hitting ranged classes when certain melee DPS specs have been OP since 6.0 (cough Vengence Jugg). It's almost as if we're all either meant to play force based melee classes if we aren't healing or we're being passively told to just play those classes.

[cflems]

Hey Chris,

 

First of all, glad to see BioWare's getting back up and running after the recent departures--class changes and communication of any kind are much appreciated after such a long period of silence. I want to preface my feedback with some context-- I am primarily a Ranked PVPer. I have several golds on various toons and have even been in the top 3 of my class a couple times (though not with the 160 wins unfortunately). My only real qualification to give this feedback is that I play both solo and group ranked with (and against) the best players in the game, and I hear the same complaints from them repeatedly, across all classes and specs. I do hear complaints from PVE and regular warzone players all the time, and I will do my best to relay their pressing concerns as well, but most of my firsthand playtime is spent in ranked, so please bear that in mind.

 

I overall am pretty satisfied with these changes, especially the changes to healers. I think kolto burst was grossly overtuned (to the degree that operative healers had an extra 10k HPS potential over the other healing specs), and I'm glad to see it reduced. It forced operatives into a very unnatural playstyle where they had to play on top of their team like a melee class, but with the very limited defensive kit of a healer, making positioning very awakward. I hope, if their HPS numbers end up underperforming due to these nerfs, they can be brought up by increases to the healing of kolto waves, recuperative nanotech, kolto probes, and surgical probe, all of which can be used from range, allowing healers to avoid stacking on their team, which, in PvP, is suicide. I like the buffs to merc and sorc healer, and I'd like to see a meta where all 3 healers can be utilized by teams interchangeably. I think sorc was lacking a bit in its single-target healing potential, and merc was lacking in its ability to heal pressure, both of which should be resolved in this way. One complaint I have heard, especially from PvEers, is a desire for better 8-target healing from sorc, as both roaming mend and resurgence spread are limited to 4 (5 for mend) targets, so perhaps some improvements to the healing value of revivification could be in order as well. Over all, well done with healers.

 

I must say, though, the changes to the DPS specs have me a bit confused. For the most part, it seems like the goal is to remove many of the dice-roll mechanics, fix things that were working differently than intended, and compensate accordingly, which I think is a good course of action. However, the changes to lightning/telekinetics have me slightly concerned.

 

First, a point of clarification:

Convection - Thundering Blast grants Reserved Darkness, making Dark Heal an instant cast and increasing its healing by 30%. Stacks up to 2 times.

Is this meant to replace the existing convection, or be added in addition to it? If the latter, then I see no issue. This addresses a major PvP, and especially ranked PvP, concern of lightning sorcs--that they have very poor tools to recover health while in combat, while their defensive kit is reliant on them doing so--and does so in quite elegant fashion. If this passive is intended to replace the existing convection passive, however, the buff is not even remotely worth its cost. Convection is central to the lightning playstyle. The ability to activate lightning bolts on the move is the only thing that allows us to access our Fulgrous Fortification DR in PvP, as standing still to cast 3 lightning bolts requires idling for an obscene amount of time, during which our healthbar will vanish, and the DR will be useless to us. Such a change would also completely break the Eyrin's Haste tactical, as it relies on having 3 stacks of convection in order to determine whether thundering blast can be activated instantly. Additionally, removing the instant lightning bolts would make this spec nearly unusable in PvE, destroying any mobility it once had, and also pretty much destroy the most fun part of the spec (running around shooting lightning bolts at people). I am pretty certain this was intended as an addition to the passive, as I doubt you would so casually implement a change that would break so many things in the back end, as well as have so many unintended side effects, but someone expressed this concern to me recently so I wanted to relay it.

 

Next, to the damage changes:

Reverberating Force - Critical hit damage bonus has been reduced to 12% down from 15%.

Thundering Blast - Second arc of damage deals 20% of Turbulence's damage down from 25%.

Storm watch damage decreased by 4%

Halted Offensive cast time increased from 2.5 seconds to 3.0 seconds. Alacrity still affects cast time.

Decrease Halted Offensive damage by 15%.

As a PvPer, none of these changes greatly affect me. This spec has been through worse than a 3% surge nerf. I like that you're making more of the damage come from deterministic sources (RNG DPS is no fun), I like that you're removing the hardcasted halted offensive from the PvE rotation, and I like that you're making chain lightning a viable option to take over halted offensive. My concern is simply the cumulative effect of applying FIVE (5) DPS nerfs to the same spec at the same time. Lightning currently does exactly average DPS on a dummy, and struggles to actually pump this number out in fights due to the presence of the hardcasted halted offensive in the rotation. (Source: https://parsely.io/parser/stats). My fear is that applying the changes as described will send it directly to the bottom of the charts. Since whirlwind has been made an unreachable option, and the majority of its healing and damage avoidance utilities have been removed, lightning brings little to the table other than damage and roots in PvP. Without damage, I fear it may lose its already very niche usefulness.

 

As a result, I would urge you to do one of two things:

- Either, apply only these three changes, see how they affect damage output, and adjust accordingly in a future patch:

Thundering Blast - Second arc of damage deals 20% of Turbulence's damage down from 25%.

Storm watch damage decreased by 4%

Halted Offensive cast time increased from 2.5 seconds to 3.0 seconds. Alacrity still affects cast time.

- Or, apply all the changes as described, and then, very deliberately, inspect the damage output of the spec and adjust its bonus damage of the spec to ensure it does not fall behind its DPS target. I would actually prefer the second option because I would really like to see chain lightning viability, but it does seem like more work for the team. I leave it up to you to determine whether that's something you have bandwidth to take on.

Edited August 31, 2022 by cflems

[coldserpent]

Chris,

If you're looking over what changes to enact, I have one for you. Return Force Choke to what it was for Marauders before the 7.0 update. As a core ability that both Sith Warriors shared as force classes, and gained at a similar level in the 20s. There is no reason why a Marauder should have to be at an extremely high level to even gain the option to pick it. Especially if the character gets the option to Force Choke in story dialogue throughout the class story, in cutscenes even.

[BorimorTheGreat]

Whew, I would be happy to test this but.

 

I am going out on a limb assuming you guys have fixed the bug allowing for stacking of thermal det empower? nerfing it marginally isn't going to really help imo. Fix the bug, if the bugs are fixed then great this is reasonable still.

Now the tactical for AP. Just over the top, literally. This thing is overkill, far from balanced in a PvP situation.

This spec is already extremely meta for PvP this will just make it reign even longer.

 

As for the slows - can we steer away? 50% slows are quite big and when they last that long and generally the mass application of slows in the game. It basically makes it impossible to play PvP at normal or even boosted movement speed for more than a second or two. This is not what we need.

Other changes seem interesting but, please revise AP Powertech changes. Nerfs are fine! Bugs with thermal det stacking empower are not. What I mean by that is having the ability to have a 4 stack, 3 stacks, and 1 stack all for one thermal det. This allows for quite a bit over 100k hits consistently, hell even 80ks through 50% DR dcds. This should be a top priority to fix if anything.

 

If the ability of stacking empowers is still in the game and this tactical comes in unchanged, killing someone in the opener is already possible. Afterward, killing someone through nearly all defenses in an opener is definitely going to be possible and I am talking about things like PT/Lethality operative, classes that are already leagues ahead of most defensively at the moment. How does a sin stand a chance? Resist their energy burst? Well, the bad news is they'll still have it, and resisting their energy burst will just reset their TD anyway. Please, please, please, think about this in a PvP situation and I am happy to give examples or more feedback.

 

 

(This is my first forum post and I’m on phone so I hope this works well). Firstly this tactical would prevent 3/4 from working and I think you’ll find a lot of pts running this tactical (you need to energy burst to get the fourth stack to throw TD).

 

Secondly, you’re take on slows is really good. The game right now seems overran by roots + slows it’s incredibly aggravating in SR when I’m getting tab slowed by a madness sorc every what 10 seconds? Especially with lower availability to deal with slows/roots.

 

Lastly, yea don’t get me wrong leth oper and PT are defensively over balanced. HOWEVER, SIN IS AN AWFUL EXAMPLE. Don’t get me wrong on the weak DCD’s that’s not my point, my point is a defensive buff to sin would make the game unplayable, SR of SF is literally “who has more sins” I’ve seen 3x sin (Which isn’t uncommon) or even 2x sin global leth opers. Sin needs a nerf it’s incredibly unbalanced from a pure SR stand point.

[Billtheall]

Why nerf the better performing classes. Players (your customers) have been enjoying the better perfomance of those classes. Why take that away. Just raise the lower performing classes to meet the better. Is it not better to give than to take. Please buff the lower and leave the higher alone.

[Alisonprime]

Why nerf the better performing classes. Players (your customers) have been enjoying the better perfomance of those classes. Why take that away. Just raise the lower performing classes to meet the better. Is it not better to give than to take. Please buff the lower and leave the higher alone.

 

Ah the Yoshi-P approach. I say I enjoy that more.

[timovdt]

Wy in the world would you nerf one of the only 3 SEMI viable ranged specs that is still among the BOTTOM 3 specs in pvp if you want to kill HO hardcast maybe just buff TB and CL and just remove this failed experiment ?

[Deaconik]

These changes impact PvE significantly more than PvP. The amount of content that will be made unplayable for certain classes and specs for PvE from the suggested changes is actually upsetting to a point that is hard to put into words. Speaking of just the two specs I play primarily, Hatred and Lightning, the removal of the saber strike dot tick from two time trouble will flat out make the spec unviable for endgame PvE content and there is no real good backup rotation other than the 6.0 rotation which is a force deficit rotation, where I end up standing still doing nothing waiting for my force to regen. The changes to lightning make it significantly less viable for fights in PvE that require lots of moving around and the same is true for the PvP application, I will be lucky to get off a full cast of HO without being stunned or interrupted.

 

Except R-4 all opses got 10 % hp boss nerf. (Gods more?) So the PvE content which will be unplayable won't be that huge. Of course if you take one of the worse choices people won't be exactly happy I guess.

[Beyrahl]

Hi everyone!

 

We really appreciate all your feedback and have been reading all of it. I just wanted to make a post to clarify somethings accidentally missed in the OP. One is that we missed some Sorcerer / Sage changes, which will be added to the OP in the changes section.

 

The second is the new AP/Tactics Tactical. I accidentally wrote an older design description to that, which has since been changed. The cooldown reset that would have occurred to reset Thermal Detonator now affects Rocket Punch instead. That part of the tactical now reads:

"Energy Burst: The cooldown of Rocket Punch is reset your next Rocket Punch costs no heat."

 

As a final point, the "Reactive Substance" mod change does not have values since we can't communicate that very well on the forums. But power-wise a single stack of Reactive Substance would be similar to one Kolto Waves tick. You can stack it twice on a single target and get 2x the effect whenever damage is dealt to them.

 

Again, we really appreciate all your feedback! The OP will be updated shortly.

 

Thanks,

-Chris

 

The timely response is amazing.

Could we potentially look into a more broad balance for PvP in the near future?

Problematic things like

• Defel Spliced Genes - Either rework or something added in its place.
  
• Two cloaks - Either rework or something added in its place.
  
• Taunt stun - Needs a negative effect for DPS running it, too good to pass up in a lot of situations. Remove?
  
• Thermal Det empower stacking with itself
  
• Lethality off heals - mostly looking at % of total HP heals for self, this class can comfortably do 5-6k HPS without trying to. When it tries it can easily break 10k. While a good majority of it is self-healing it's definitely the best healing available on a DPS by leagues. I think it should be tuned more in line with other DPS off-healing, it doesn't really lack in any area right now at all when played well.
  
• (PvE/Parser thing) Clicking off berserk, applicable in other content but difficult. This is how parses for Fury are higher than normal and look relatively impossible to do, it's reliant on clicking off berserk to immediately start rebuilding fury.
  
• Death brand can retrigger a seemingly infinite amount of times. Even after death.
  
  

I could keep the list going but honestly, I think these are the more so important things to look at when going into 7.2 without doing massive overall balance changes. I will definitely give feedback when the time comes around for something like that though.

Another thing I would like to highlight since eyes are actually on the thread is how gear score calculation is done and manipulated currently in PvP. Here's a post I did not long ago explaining it in the most detail that I can. I personally don't see a way to fix this without uncapping PvP or adding expertise into PvP gear again.

Thanks!

[joshrva]

These changes are counterproductive and do not address the current DPS balancing issues in PvE.

 

I will say, I think the healer changes are great. And one of the actual overperforming specs was nerfed (pyro) which is good, I believe it is a bit harsh of a nerf, but it is at least to the correct class.

 

However, the nerfs to the rest dps classes are counterproductive to overall class balancing. In addition, they don't touch what actually makes the classes that are overperforming so strong.

 

Concealment, Lightning, Madness, and Hatred do not need to be nerfed. None of these classes are over represented in raids. They don't do top damage in raids, they don't bring any utility, they don't even have great survivability. They are completely inferior to Marauder, Pyro PT, and Sniper. Classes that were not nerfed, or in the case of Pyro PT, not nerfed enough to still not be completely superior to these classes.

 

Additionally, Advanced Prototype does not need to be nerfed to the extent that it is being nerfed to. And as far as I can tell, this new tactical will not be used in PvE. It may be used in PvP, but I don't think it will be very welcome there either. There don't need to be more slows in PvP.

 

I can't tell whether the changes to Marksman are a nerf or not, as it is not specified whether Corrosive Dart counts towards "whenever dealing damage," as previously it only applied to weapon damage. If it still only applies to weapon damage, this is a nerf, and an unnecessary one.

 

What DPS classes actually need to be nerfed? And how?

 

Marauder (specifically Annihilation) and Powertech. And I say this as a Powertech main. However, neither of these classes need to be nerfed due to damage output (besides Pyrotech PT, but that was already done). They need to be nerfed in raid utility, or other classes need to be brought up to them in terms of raid utility.

 

These are the classes that ARE over represented in raids. What makes them overrepresented by and large is their raid utility. Powertechs have great damage, especially Pyrotech, but other classes can at least somewhat come close (at least, before these nerfs). What other classes can't come close to is their raid utility. I've mentioned raid utility 5 times already, and I can't stress enough that raid utility is the cause of current balancing issues in PvE.

 

What do Marauders and Powertechs have in raid utility that other classes don't?

Marauder - Predation, a raid wide 80% movement speed increase and slow/root purge, as well as an additional 10% white damage defense (mainly used by tanks).

-------Annihiltion - absolutely massive and overtuned raid healing.

 

Powertech - Sonic Rebounders, a single use reflect against the next direct damage attack that's a applied to your whole raid team that's in range, except for yourself. There are many fights where you stack Powertechs specifically for rebounders, which just shouldn't be a thing.

 

Additionally, Snipers have Ballistic Shield, which reduces the damage taken by all allies while inside of the shield. This is the only form of raid utility to be seen on a class that isn't Marauder and Powertech. Snipers will continue to be the dominant ranged class due to this, as well as their solid damage and good defensives.

 

Also, one point that I would like to add, these classes; Marauder, Powertech, and Sniper; have by far the best defensives of all the classes. This does not help the class balance.

 

Conclusion

 

These presented DPS class nerfs are, quite simply, counterproductive. They will only cause the already dominant classes (Marauder, Pyro PT, and Sniper) to be even more dominant, as there's not only any class that compete with them in raid utility, but now in damage as well.

 

Edit: I forgot to mention, thank you for the OP aoe dr. That and healer changes I agree with and support. The rest of my points still stand.

Edited September 1, 2022 by joshrva

[Amuune]

I am not a number cruncher by any means. I play because it's fun, I try to min/max my specs with help from others who know more than I do about the numbers themselves. I practice rotations and do my best to get better. I'm still a middle-of-the-ladder player, but definitely not new. So what I have to say comes from a standpoint of my being able to play some of my favorite classes.

 

Or...used to be able to.

 

Pre-7.0 I played Marksman Sniper. I was damn proud of my performance, hitting an average of 19-21k in most boss fights. I loved the absolute hell out of the spec and intended to carry on into 7.0. I loved the feel of my sniper, the sounds of her rifle going off were just ear candy to me. Then 7.0 hit and, like the Fire Nation attacking, everything changed.

My energy consumption shot through the roof (I've since gotten better about managing it), and the DPS dropped like a rock. I tried several times to see if it was just me or the class itself. More and more I heard how Marksman is one of the worst classes now. My heart broke. I was not going to be able to play my favored Sniper anymore. Instead, I gave her the Operative offspec and began Op healing with her. I figured out how to keep her look from her Sniper outfitter while not having to change the look of the rifle (Don't you DARE change that) so I at least had SOMETHING to hail back to her Sniper origins. Healing became fun for me. I enjoy the hell out of it, too. But I still miss playing Marksman severely.

 

While I understand that a lot are saying that the Kolto Burst was overtuned, I can't say I am not disappointed that it's being nerfed. I'll accept it, just not thrilled. There are buffs to the other healers, so I can at least see a bit of a balancing act here.

 

Because I am not able to play Marksman anymore, and I DON'T feel happy, comfortable or satisfied playing PT/Jugg/Mara, I decided to try Lightning. I had just picked it up last week and found the joy in it. The sounds of the Lightning spec, like Marksman, are ear candy to me. I practiced the rotation and got it down for the most part. I was getting practice in Ops, and while my numbers in R4 SM are...meager in comparison to the dummy, I still learned on the fly about what I could use mid-movement (thanks, Disco Ball).

 

But then today I saw the nerfs to Lightning. And I am sitting here stunned and upset. Increasing the cast time of Halted Offensive to 3sec? What's the reasoning behind that? And nerfing the damage? Are you trying to make it so we don't use that ability at all? Is there a different rotation you all have in mind that you're hinting at? Also, wth is with the heal buff when using Thundering Blast? Yes, because I am totally going to interrupt my rotation to cast a heal on myself as soon as TB goes off. I'm more likely to use a medpac and keep going. I'm supposed to rely on my healers for healing. Why not try some kind of defensive instead? Something to reduce damage for x amount of seconds when TB is cast? Something like:

 

"Sound Barrier: Thundering Blast has a xx% chance to proc a sound deafening barrier around you, reducing damage taken by xxxxx for xx seconds." - make it an automatic ability for Lightning only, something specific to their tree that they don't have to choose from. Or make TB create stacks of something that you can use for a defensive - the more stacks, the more damage is reduced, and limit the amount of stacks to like, 3 or 5. You hit an ability button, and there's your defensive for a high-damage mechanic. (I'm sure others will tear apart my idea, that's fine, it's just an idea, I am not an expert)

 

Literally everything I have tried to play that I enjoy has gotten nerfed to the point it's unplayable. I think Operative healing is the only one so far that hasn't gotten a hard smash into the dirt...yet.

 

Look. A lot of us are EXTREMELY UNHAPPY about these changes. I beg of you: Please listen. Please buff the underperforming classes so they can be viable again. If you have to tweak anything, take a look at HM R4 and tune that down just a tad and fix the dead bugs, 90% loading errors and other issues. Don't destroy the classes to leave just THREE classes viable in hard content. If we can't play what we enjoy...what's the point? Seriously?

 

I want to play my Marksman again. I miss it. I want to be able to bring her into hard content again, instead of being regulated to Storymodes.

[xxSHOONYxx]

Running some quick numbers on pyro that is the spec that is easiest to calculate the nerf, the nerf will be making the avarage 6.5m dummy parse of pyro 26-26.5k dps. In pve it really seems that warrior classes will be king even more than they are now. Juggernaut above all is ruining pve with the mindless 1 button smash that can double every other class dps in many of the fights, classes that actually need to keep track of dots or follow a rotation stomped by someone pressing repeatedly one button.

 

I don't pvp, but i still want pvp to be balanced because i want the game to succeed and be fun for everyone not just me. But it really seems that pvp and pve balancing NEEDS to be separated more than ever with the state the game is right now or every time you balance a class taking into consideration pvp or pve, the other side will be pissed because on what they play the changes make no sense and makes the game objectiviely worse.

 

In pve the balance issues are simple:

1) IP-CPT needs to be re-balanced to be on par with the difficulty of being the first boss of a hm op and give a chance to other less invested people into operation a progression into the new operation rather than a stone wall to hit your face against.

2) Juggernaut cut to pieces with shater burst is still completely broken, fixing that needs to be the main priority in balancing, and at the same time making hard apex bosses more of a challenge rather than af face roll.

3) Marauder and powrtech bloated raid utility is what makes people play them (rebounder, predation, heals) not their damage, take some utility out of them or give other classes similar raid utility or different utility. Other classes right now can outdps them but they have no raid utility, especially now that stealth classes can't stealth ress.

4) Pyrotech is a dot spec, why does it have a tactical that makes it one of the best burst specs under fuel instead of one revolving about dots or dot ticking? As a dot spec also it has the worst dot spread compared to other dot classes.

5) Arsenal and Marskmanship need to be buffed, marksman arsenal and lightning were supposed to be the lowest dps but makrsman and arsneal damage is ridiculous and lightning is outdpsing even melee dot classes.

6) Take a look to scyva's shield in nim.

7) Decide what you want to do with the game, nerfing the hp of all the bosses and then wanting to lower the dps of everyone but warriors makes no sense, it really feels like this tentative changes are like going back in circles to how it was with the addition that makes warrior classes the king of pve.

Edited August 31, 2022 by xxSHOONYxx

[Chryptyk]

I was looking at these dps changes and am i correct in assuming these are all related to PVP performance? That's what it seems like to me. They are the smallest percentage of players, and yet somehow the changes for them make such a huge impact on everyone else that people are already talking about multiple classes being unviable for raiding. It used to just be mercs, but no, these changes will add these other classes to the list. Do you really only want us to play Jugs and Maras? We need some viable ranged specs still. Only ones left at this point would maybe be viru or eng, and even then they would not be good in some places.

 

Now do your job right and buff the lowest performing specs. It's easier to do that than to nerf specs. If you go through with these nerfs, your true incompetence will be amply demonstrated. You need to think about the bigger picture here. PVEers vastly outnumber PVPers. If you make changes for PVP, do it in a way that doesn't screw over PVEers who are already having a bad enough time with scaling, balancing, and gearing, and dealing with the disaster that is R4.

[JakRoanin]

Hi everyone!

 

We really appreciate all your feedback and have been reading all of it. I just wanted to make a post to clarify somethings accidentally missed in the OP. One is that we missed some Sorcerer / Sage changes, which will be added to the OP in the changes section.

 

The second is the new AP/Tactics Tactical. I accidentally wrote an older design description to that, which has since been changed. The cooldown reset that would have occurred to reset Thermal Detonator now affects Rocket Punch instead. That part of the tactical now reads:

"Energy Burst: The cooldown of Rocket Punch is reset your next Rocket Punch costs no heat."

 

As a final point, the "Reactive Substance" mod change does not have values since we can't communicate that very well on the forums. But power-wise a single stack of Reactive Substance would be similar to one Kolto Waves tick. You can stack it twice on a single target and get 2x the effect whenever damage is dealt to them.

 

Again, we really appreciate all your feedback! The OP will be updated shortly.

 

Thanks,

-Chris

 

Mr. Durel I truly hope you also address the level synch and bolster. Also, I hope you don't Nerf Mercs and Gunslingers into the dust of Alderaan.

[Mobiousren]

Lightning / Telekinesis

[*]Reverberating Force - Critical hit damage bonus has been reduced to 12% down from 15%.

[*]Thundering Blast - Second arc of damage deals 20% of Turbulence's damage down from 25%.

[*]Storm watch damage decreased by 4%

[*]Halted Offensive cast time increased from 2.5 seconds to 3.0 seconds. Alacrity still affects cast time.

[*]Decrease Halted Offensive damage by 15%.

 

Why just don't delete the class completly from the game? Less disk space and less work for you guys.

Nerfing hard a spec that was already hit recently by a major gameplay change and that isn't even close to the hall of overperforming specs is beyond comprehension. It's just beyond any logic. You are simply destroying a spec FOR NOTHING, for absolutely NO REASON. Just because.

 

Wasn't this supposed to be "BALANCE" changes? Why are you, instead, bringing already underperforming classes even further away from already overperforming classes? That's just ridiculous.

 

I endured some serious level of bad decisions in the past, but seeing the class I play for over 8 years beeing simply removed from the game is too much. If this really comes to live it's my final goodbye to SWTOR.

 

I can totally understand a nerf when it's needed and justifiable, but a nerf with no damn reason AT ALL? Just because... maybe someone in the team doesn't like the spec? Or whatever other arbitrary reason...? That's asking too much. No, thanks.

Edited September 2, 2022 by Mobiousren

[Battouuusi]

This post once again comes at impeccable timing. It has not even been that long since you have said that you want to hear our feedback and will take it into consideration. I would like to know who has been complaining about classes needing nerfs? The only class that I have heard talked about among PVE people is operative/scoundrel healers. None of the other proposed changes I have heard complaints about. That means it must be coming from the smaller PvP player base for the game. The question is why would you base class changes on the smallest portion of your player community. You fix pvp (until they complain about something else because they always do) but screw everyone else that plays more of your released content than PvPers. It is like you don't want to have any viable range classes anymore in NiM ops. Mercs/Mandos are already terrible, even with the so called "buff" from a couple of weeks ago. With TK/Balance going going down that pretty much leaves Snipers/Slingers, and they are not good to bring in every fight and they are not able to carry the other range classes. This brings the other issue of not being able to bring every class to NiM ops. You should be able to bring any class to any ops at any difficulty level as long as you are good enough. You should not be relegated to playing classes that are the "flavor of the month" because of PVP changes or the rantings of the top 1% of the Nim community who seem to want to make it their job to put everyone down any chance they get. Did the community as a whole ask for these changes? NO. What people are talking about is how ridiculous R4 is in both SM and HM. They are talking about how for 6 years everyone was able to get top gear, only now for it to be put behind bosses that only "sales teams" can beat. Then those sales teams want to sell it to you for ridiculous prices (credits or hypercrates) putting a huge strain on the in game economy. From the communities point of view it looks like the Devs are only looking out for the top 1% of the raiding community when they put out raids that only can be completed by them at the hardest difficulty. How many more people are going to have to leave this game in order for the developers to stop catering the games content to smallest portion of the community? I have been playing this game since launch without breaks. I have never seen the community this ticked/depressed over the release of a new OP before. Players need to be given a change to clear things at the hardest difficulty. These class changes, not nerfing R4, and not making 340 gear obtainable for all players only promotes the point that the developers are not listening to the player base at large and only listening to the few. I hope all of these class changes don't happen. I wish for a merc/mando buff, (give us back the 25% increase damage to bolt storm on proc that you took away years ago) I hope R4 gets a nerf in SM and HM, (because saying an op is balanced when you have to bring 6 dps to meet the check and have NO mechs required for a tank to be present isn't balanced) and make top gear accessible again for all players like it has been for 6 years. I hope you mean this time when you say that you will listen to the community about changes and what needs to be fixed. It has not been like that in the past but here is to hoping. It is only anyone's guess how long the game is going to last with the direction the game is going. Edited August 31, 2022 by Battouuusi

[Rion_Starkiller]

Concealment / Scrapper

• Reduced the bonus critical hit damage while Stim Boost is active from 20% to 15%.
  
• The Tactical “Acid Lash” no longer improves the damage of Acid Blade.
  

 

Hmm, are conc/scrappers over-performing on dummy parses and in raids?

 

Why? What possible reason could you have for any of the DPS nerfs listed here?

 

I'm a bit confused as well. We are a bit squishy without the Defensive Stance ability tree choice, but I think most of us take Rolling Fists in non-pvp situations, so it's moot. We are squishy paper tigers, and that's fine.

 

 

 

PS - Perhaps the devs want to nerf classes every time the gear level gets raised It almost seems like they want to bring every spec down to Arsenal level.

Edited August 31, 2022 by Rion_Starkiller

[TheCherryFamily]

Hi everyone!

 

The second is the new AP/Tactics Tactical. I accidentally wrote an older design description to that, which has since been changed. The cooldown reset that would have occurred to reset Thermal Detonator now affects Rocket Punch instead. That part of the tactical now reads:

"Energy Burst: The cooldown of Rocket Punch is reset your next Rocket Punch costs no heat."

 

-Chris

 

Really?? the old version was way better, Rocket Punch is already the cheapest thing in the APs rotation

[hillerbees]

Nothing being done for Sniper/Gunslinger Marksman survivability. I PVP and they are the 1st class to get singled out and focused hard. Classes like Jugg, Merc and Sorc all have abilities that effectively give you a second life or allow you to defelect incoming damage for a period.

 

You only have to look at what classes people are queueing up with in PVP to see what is OP at the moment.

 

Thanks for giving us the opportunity to have our say - though some may not like the changes its good to see devs back communicating with players rather than the wall of silence we've had to endure this year so far.