Planned Balance Changes for 7.1.1

[CorNightwind]

Hi all!

 

Just wanted to let you all know I've been reading all this feedback and I really appreciate all the well thought out posts! I wanted to give a couple quick notes to ease some concerns.

 

We are going to look into making some changes or redesigning the Sorcerer's AOE Tactical, as we understand some people have some concerns with the usefulness of slow and also introducing more slows into into the game.

 

I also wanted to take a moment to address some Assassin tank concerns as well. The intention of removing the DR from Severing Slash was simply to not force that choice on all tanks. But seeing as some players are feeling that is too much right now, we have decided to roll back that change for 7.1.1. In a future tank balance pass (more on that later), we may circle back to this and address is another way. If we do end up changing the functionality of Severing Slash, it's important for us to give that mitigation back somewhere else. So, for now, we're going to leave it as it currently stands with the understanding that it probably will be the most popular choice for Assassin Tanks. We will do a pass on that whole choice row in a future balance pass.

 

As for the DPS nerfs, we realize these come off as very major, but I can assure you we are constantly re-assessing these classes and all of this is subject to change. While I can't give any specific details, know that we continue to tune these classes. A good suggestion I saw on the forums was increasing Concealment's Tactical Critical from further from 6s to 8s. Quality of life changes like this that make the class easier to play well are improvements we can augment the changes we are making to their DPS output.

 

Finally, we continue to look at Operation difficulty. The team continues to tweak and adjust R4 and other Operations to ensure a fair balance. We realize any class changes affect that and we are trying to account for them as best we can.

 

As we iterate on these changes I will update this thread.

 

Thanks again,

-Chris

 

If the goal is balance between classes, why is a mid tier spec(Lightning) getting a nerf to DPS output? Why not boosting underperforming specs and pulling back overperforming specs? Or bringing everyone up towards the top performers so that no one feels like they've lost anything.

 

I get that you guys have access to more info than we do, and that these choices aren't random. Would you be able to show us the catalyzing event in the data you have about why these changes to lightning are helpful? Because from the POV of a player I don't see how this is helpful.

 

And if this is because of a PVP interaction, and is needed to balance PVP performance, then more abilities need to work differently against player-characters than they do against NPC's.

[Flowwou]

Changed the Two Time Trouble tactical so that it can no longer tick from Saber Strike damage.

 

This will likely ruin the current hatred rotations: Most of hatred dps comes from being able to keep Maliciousness at 2 stacks, which is a 20% dmg buff, while also keeping the eradicate dot up near 100% of the time as well.

 

With this chnage you wont have enough TTT procs from thrash to reliably get recklessness off CD, losing the stacks and making the rotation break.

 

This will cost hatred anywhere from 2k to 7k single target dps.

 

May I ask Bioware, what is your reasoning for this change? hatred is NOT over-represented in NM pve fights, even ones with lots of adds Veng Jugg slam spam can do that way better. Looking at NM apex (final) bosses on parsely's stats shows hatred in the top five of only 3 bosses, Izax ( from a whopping ONE parse/person), EC Kephess, 2nd only to rage jugg, 4th on TFB.

 

As someone else mentioned before, pure dps alone isnt what makes a spec good in NM. team utility does. hatred as little util outside of off taunt and AOE dr, its cleave dmg is weak compared to Jugg/guardian.

 

if you really want to nerf hatred, leave TTT alone and reduce it's sub 30% damage by like 15-20%, that will keep it in line with other dps currently, while not breaking the rotations/ spec entirely.

 

IF/when this change goes live, this spec will vanish from hard HMs and NM. If the goal is to create more diversity in DPS classes, Killing 5 classes is NOT the way to go.

 

How can you say that all the rotation now is almost using one spell for melee damage which is your auto attack.

not being able to maintain your 20% more damage on mele attack won't result to a 2k -7k loss of damage cause you can change your ability for using something else.

The most important value for a sin dps is the damage done sub 30% reduce that will simply kill the class.

 

The change they are making is not that bad at all it just mean change a little your rotation and test some other ability

and more over the Maliciousness ability isn't the best to pick for full aoe rotation.

[LJ_Gibbs]

 

Finally, we continue to look at Operation difficulty. The team continues to tweak and adjust R4 and other Operations to ensure a fair balance. We realize any class changes affect that and we are trying to account for them as best we can.

 

 

No. No. No. No. No.

 

No you don't. You all KNOW Story Mode is way too overtuned. It should have been fixed by now.

 

Giving people access to the 330 mods, etc renders EVERY OP but the new one worthless. So the only thing worth doing is R4.... and you sure as heck can't have people flying through Story Mode because then there would be NOTHING to do. So why not leave it in it's overtuned state, right?

 

You will come on here in a few months professing your "metrics" say R4 is so darn popular .... yet semi-casual HM raiders have to prog the Story Mode. That's utterly ridiculous.

 

Just stop with the flat out lies.

[sithBracer]

I also wanted to take a moment to address some Assassin tank concerns as well. The intention of removing the DR from Severing Slash was simply to not force that choice on all tanks. But seeing as some players are feeling that is too much right now, we have decided to roll back that change for 7.1.1. In a future tank balance pass (more on that later), we may circle back to this and address is another way. If we do end up changing the functionality of Severing Slash, it's important for us to give that mitigation back somewhere else. So, for now, we're going to leave it as it currently stands with the understanding that it probably will be the most popular choice for Assassin Tanks. We will do a pass on that whole choice row in a future balance pass.

 

First off thank you very much for responding. It might only take you 10 minutes or so to type, but it really does help us out knowing some of the thought processes of the changes you made.

 

You say you don't want to force a choice, but you put shroud, a dps assassins only DCD there for some reason? Do you honestly expect someone to choose severing slash, an ability so horrible, that no one put it on their hotbars when you offered it for free, over literally the only DCD the class has (deflection is trash and not really a DCD as it is useless in raids and can be made ineffective in PvP with a stun)? Add to that it is also a root breaker and purge. You understand the choice is forced as well right? There is no scenario where anyone would take severing slash over shroud in PvE or PvP. there is no scenario in PvE where anyone would take the whirlwind over shroud and hardly any in PvP.

[joshrva]

As for the DPS nerfs, we realize these come off as very major, but I can assure you we are constantly re-assessing these classes and all of this is subject to change. While I can't give any specific details, know that we continue to tune these classes. A good suggestion I saw on the forums was increasing Concealment's Tactical Critical from further from 6s to 8s. Quality of life changes like this that make the class easier to play well are improvements we can augment the changes we are making to their DPS output.

 

I would like to reiterate what a few other people have said; it's not that nerfing classes is concerning, it's what classes you're choosing to nerf which is concerning.

 

Lightning, Madness, Hatred, Concealment, and Marksman are mid tier specs at absolute best. They absolutely do not need to be nerfed. Additionally, AP does not need to be nerfed in damage output, it has decent if not slightly above average damage output.

Here are the classes that DO need to be nerfed:

 

Annihilation Marauder- in passive heals, not damage

All Marauder specs - in raid utility (predation), not damage

Pyrotech Powertech - in damage (the current changes are good) and in raid utility (rebounders)

AP Powertech - in raid utility (rebounders), not damage

Vengeance Juggernaut - in aoe damage

Medicine Operative - in aoe heals

 

No other classes need to be nerfed at this point in time. Please.

 

Thank you

Edited September 1, 2022 by joshrva

[Zamilork]

How can you say that all the rotation now is almost using one spell for melee damage which is your auto attack.

not being able to maintain your 20% more damage on mele attack won't result to a 2k -7k loss of damage cause you can change your ability for using something else.

The most important value for a sin dps is the damage done sub 30% reduce that will simply kill the class.

 

The change they are making is not that bad at all it just mean change a little your rotation and test some other ability

and more over the Maliciousness ability isn't the best to pick for full aoe rotation.

 

Its not JUST the 20%, its the 100% ER uptime, + 100% deathmark uptime, I've tested rotations not using saber strike at ALL and, 1 the ER, deathmark and Mal uptime is just not possible w/o TTT procs from saber strike, thrash simply doesnt give enough TTT procs.

 

Also you dont JUST use saber strike, Leeching and Assasinate are used, just not thrash.

 

The only reason I can think of to nerf hatred THIS hard is they're planning on bringing back the deathknell set.

 

I've tested rotations w/o mal and SS, the dps loss is MASSIVE. the TTT not procing form SS will simply kill the spec outright.

Edited September 1, 2022 by Zamilork

[Appleshauce]

This is ridiculous. You say you are listening to feedback, but the main points being raised are still not being addressed on the 3rd revision. The ONLY classes that can survive any sort of nerf and still be viable in NiM are marauders, juggs, and PTs, yet you seem to be nerfing everything but.

 

I just unsubbed, and can't in good conscience resub until at least one of the 7 specs I play is viable as dps in nim, because right now nobody will even consider inviting me unless I play mara/jug/pt. This was already a MASSIVE problem, and these nerfs are just going to make it worse, the ones that are semi NiM viable in NiM are now even lower on the totem poll. I will resub in a second if you make 1 of the 4 dps specs on my inquisitor main viable for NiM content. Until then, I just don't see how I can progress forward without playing one of the 3 specs allowed in NiM, none of which I enjoy.

 

If you want to even out classes, nerf the top, and buff the bottom, don't nerf the middle. I've been seriously questioning wether you all even look at parsely.

 

Trying to find a motivation to keep playing, but since these where announce I can't look at swtor without seeing red. Downloaded FF14 yesterday, looks like I may finally be done with swtor

[Monterone]

I understand that Rho is bugged, but even so the spec is barely competitive. Even with the slight buffs this is still a cumulative nerf of around 5% (more, if Disintegration is a change). To offset the damage loss from Rho, Force Horrors would have to be increased to 30% and Lightning Barrage to -15%. I can't understand nerfing a spec that's already one of the worst. I'm not sure if it's reached even average levels since 3.0, based on rankings on dummy and in ops...

 

Madness has been in limbo and has been under-performing since around the time Death Field went down to smaller radius it is now. This was just such a terrible mistake for this tree. The radius of the spreader went down to the same radius as other classes' spammable spreaders, but Death Field retained the high cool down. There is not even a mechanism to lower the CD of Death Field through crits or what have you.

 

I feel like they lost their vision for Madness then and were never able to recover it. This was an enormous change for Madness viability in PvP.

[Beyrahl]

Hi all!

 

Just wanted to let you all know I've been reading all this feedback and I really appreciate all the well thought out posts! I wanted to give a couple quick notes to ease some concerns.

 

We are going to look into making some changes or redesigning the Sorcerer's AOE Tactical, as we understand some people have some concerns with the usefulness of slow and also introducing more slows into into the game.

 

I also wanted to take a moment to address some Assassin tank concerns as well. The intention of removing the DR from Severing Slash was simply to not force that choice on all tanks. But seeing as some players are feeling that is too much right now, we have decided to roll back that change for 7.1.1. In a future tank balance pass (more on that later), we may circle back to this and address is another way. If we do end up changing the functionality of Severing Slash, it's important for us to give that mitigation back somewhere else. So, for now, we're going to leave it as it currently stands with the understanding that it probably will be the most popular choice for Assassin Tanks. We will do a pass on that whole choice row in a future balance pass.

 

As for the DPS nerfs, we realize these come off as very major, but I can assure you we are constantly re-assessing these classes and all of this is subject to change. While I can't give any specific details, know that we continue to tune these classes. A good suggestion I saw on the forums was increasing Concealment's Tactical Critical from further from 6s to 8s. Quality of life changes like this that make the class easier to play well are improvements we can augment the changes we are making to their DPS output.

 

Finally, we continue to look at Operation difficulty. The team continues to tweak and adjust R4 and other Operations to ensure a fair balance. We realize any class changes affect that and we are trying to account for them as best we can.

 

As we iterate on these changes I will update this thread.

 

Thanks again,

-Chris

 

Wonderful.

Any chance we could also tune down the sound effect for Stormwatch when nerfing it? It's unbearably loud.

Very glad the slows are being thought about instead of just slapped in. So to give an example for AP with this new tactical, it would be able to nearly maintain the 50% slow at all times on someone if they chose to do so. While the other two are options for more damage, the slow will likely be the main thing used. I don't think this is the best idea as Powertech barely got tapped with the prune bat and has all its tools to be sticky on a target.

 

An idea for complete rework IMO would be best.

Even if it's something as simple as this.

Rail shot explodes your thermal det early making the next energy burst free or the next rocket punch/mag blast deal 10% more damage.

Barely changes how the spec works, amplifies heat management, and remains simple while not being over the top.

Whatever is done, the only issue I see is the usefulness of the current proposed tactical is the fact it remains dormant for 12 seconds, that's quite some time. The slow is obnoxious on an already obnoxious spec and lastly, the rail shot proc for shoulder cannon is a bit awkward.

 

Neural trigger and the overwhelming offense are what this tactical would be competing with so keep that in mind. The stun allows for in PvP great control and off the global cooldown stun. This also allows you to basically never miss a rail shot if you have it up - which does the majority of your damage anyway in long fights. This tactical is honestly too good and needs a negative effect for DPS to be running it imo. Then overwhelming offense is just a flat increase for everything, while it is generic it's likely still better than what's being proposed. The main reason I see myself using the new tactical is for the slow and the class doesn't need that at all, the other two procs have questionable damage impacts, and rail shots procs uptime would be terrible to truly feel the impact. While punch would be felt we already have a talent that sort of does this game thing with grapple.

 

Now for a cool AP tactical that I would totally love!

One that already exists too, it's really cool. Called Flame Det. It's the AoE option for AP PT, it proc'd off the searing wave before its removal and flame sweep. Both terrible abilities for AP really hindering it. I would love to see a QoL change to make it proc off of shatter slug too, not just flame sweep. The only reason people even use flame sweep in AP is to proc rail shot before combat. Otherwise, it's a noob-bait mistake. I would definitely keep an eye on the tactical if this change is made because with all honesty it's already decent just harder to make use of because flame sweep is so bad with limited time to get it off on top of the target (Desync) in time is rough. Really messes up heat management. Main reason this would do too much damage is ONLY because of thermal det empower stacking - which is someone stacking a 4 stack 3 stack and a 1 stack all at once effectively making it two 4's or an 8 stack in total. This should just be fixed in general for balance going forward.

 

Anyway.

Since gear score calculation is being abused, in the previous post I linked a thread I talked about it in. Could we see the return of expertise or uncapped PvP gear to deal with it?

Any chance we'll see talent choices reworked/moved around too?

giving feedback as someone who has played the spec since the end of 1.0. I am not the only one either, but there are tons of people ready and willing to give feedback if they're being listened to. More specs being viable and competitive is better!

Thanks.

[cflems]

As for the DPS nerfs, we realize these come off as very major, but I can assure you we are constantly re-assessing these classes and all of this is subject to change. While I can't give any specific details, know that we continue to tune these classes. A good suggestion I saw on the forums was increasing Concealment's Tactical Critical from further from 6s to 8s. Quality of life changes like this that make the class easier to play well are improvements we can augment the changes we are making to their DPS output.

 

Hey Chris,

 

So it seems like you guys are looking for suggestions regarding how to hit your DPS targets while preserving quality-of-life, or even improving it. I think I can provide ideas to that effect regarding Lightning/Telekinetics. The theorycrafters have done the math, and the nerfs as proposed would reduce Lightning's dummy DPS by 10%, leaving it at 10% below average DPS, so I will assume that is the goal, but you can take partial measures/scale these numbers differently in order to hit a different target (say, 5% below average, which has traditionally been the ranged burst DPS target).

 

Firstly, a note on convection: The instant lightning bolts coming from this talent are pretty much exclusively a QoL thing, and a critical staple of its PvP performance, so if QoL is the intention then keep these in, nevermind whether that was the original intention of the change or not. The second part of this talent (as it reads in the new tree) is Reverberating Force, which is being treated separately, so I will assume that part is staying in, and we'll talk about that in a second. Therefore, the Convection passive in the tree should now read after the change:

Lightning Tree (Convection):

Force Speed gives 2 stacks of Convection which allows Lightning Strike and Lightning Bolt to be activated instantly. Additionally, Thundering Blast grants Reserved Darkness, making Dark Heal an instant cast and increasing its healing by 30%. Stacks up to 2 times. Increases the critical damage dealt by Chain Lightning, Halted Offensive, Crushing Darkness, Thundering Blast, and Lightning Flash by [12 or 15]%.

Telekinetics Tree (Clamoring Force):

Force Speed gives 2 stacks of Clamoring Force, which allows Disturbance and Telekinetic Burst to be activated instantly. Additionally, Turbulence grants Turbulent Mercy, making Benevolence an instant cast and increasing its healing by 30%. Increases the critical damage dealt by Telekinetic Wave, Power of the Force, Mind Crush, Turbulence, and Telekinetic Gust by [12|15]%.

 

Next, let's talk about how to properly nerf the DPS. I personally do not feel Lightning's DPS is in a place where it needs a nerf, but I do strongly support the elimination of Halted Offensive/Power of the Force hardcasting by increasing its cast time. This is a tradeoff of DPS output for Quality of Life, and I would much rather have Lightning/Telekinetics be a fun, mobile, fast-paced burst spec than a turret with a lot of raw damage output (that's what sniper is for). However, since Lightning is a burst spec, its damage should be scaled accordingly--high peaks and low valleys--and generally the way to achieve this is by making damage nerfs to the DoT abilities and fillers rather than the burst abilities. Since the target is -10% DPS, here's a way we might achieve that in keeping with the burst philosophy:

- Keep Reverberating Force at 15%. Surge bonuses only affect burst damage, so nerfing them only nerfs burst, when nerfing dot and filler damage is our goal.

- Keep Halted Offensive/Power of the Force at 100% of its damage, BUT increase its cast time by 0.5 or even 1.0 seconds. This, alongside Thundering Blast/Turbulence is your big burst damage ability, so we don't want to decrease its damage for the sake of sustain. HOWEVER, currently it is being utilized twice per Thundering Blast/Turbulence instead of once, which is unintended, rotation-breaking, and limits mobility severely, so the increased cast time should prevent this behavior. [This alone decreases DPS output by approximately 5%].

--- Stop here if the goal is -5% DPS. If it is -10%, keep going. ---

- Stormwatch currently contributes about 9.5% of the spec's total damage when using the normal (non-hardcast) rotation. Reduce the damage done by Stormwatch by 33%. [This decreases DPS output by 3.2% and enables a greater diversity of tacticals to but utilized in PvE.]

- Thundering Blast under Forked Darkness contributes about 1.3% of the spec's total damage, and is not consistent enough to rely upon for burst in PvP. Therefore, rather than reducing its damage by 5%, it can be entirely removed without issue. [This decreases DPS output by 1.3% without any QoL difference.]

- Crushing Darkness under Forked Darkness contributes about 1.2% of the spec's total damage, and is likewise not consistent enough to be useful in PvP. Therefore, reduce its damage by 50%. [This decreases DPS output by 0.6%, getting us to our -10% target.]

 

Thank you for taking the time to read our feedback and I hope you will consider implementing some of my suggestions.

[WoRei]

Hey Chris,

 

So it seems like you guys are looking for suggestions regarding how to hit your DPS targets while preserving quality-of-life, or even improving it. I think I can provide ideas to that effect regarding Lightning/Telekinetics. The theorycrafters have done the math, and the nerfs as proposed would reduce Lightning's dummy DPS by 10%, leaving it at 10% below average DPS, so I will assume that is the goal, but you can take partial measures/scale these numbers differently in order to hit a different target (say, 5% below average, which has traditionally been the ranged burst DPS target).

 

Firstly, a note on convection: The instant lightning bolts coming from this talent are pretty much exclusively a QoL thing, and a critical staple of its PvP performance, so if QoL is the intention then keep these in, nevermind whether that was the original intention of the change or not. The second part of this talent (as it reads in the new tree) is Reverberating Force, which is being treated separately, so I will assume that part is staying in, and we'll talk about that in a second. Therefore, the Convection passive in the tree should now read after the change:

Lightning Tree (Convection):

 

Telekinetics Tree (Clamoring Force):

 

 

Next, let's talk about how to properly nerf the DPS. I personally do not feel Lightning's DPS is in a place where it needs a nerf, but I do strongly support the elimination of Halted Offensive/Power of the Force hardcasting by increasing its cast time. This is a tradeoff of DPS output for Quality of Life, and I would much rather have Lightning/Telekinetics be a fun, mobile, fast-paced burst spec than a turret with a lot of raw damage output (that's what sniper is for). However, since Lightning is a burst spec, its damage should be scaled accordingly--high peaks and low valleys--and generally the way to achieve this is by making damage nerfs to the DoT abilities and fillers rather than the burst abilities. Since the target is -10% DPS, here's a way we might achieve that in keeping with the burst philosophy:

- Keep Reverberating Force at 15%. Surge bonuses only affect burst damage, so nerfing them only nerfs burst, when nerfing dot and filler damage is our goal.

- Keep Halted Offensive/Power of the Force at 100% of its damage, BUT increase its cast time by 0.5 or even 1.0 seconds. This, alongside Thundering Blast/Turbulence is your big burst damage ability, so we don't want to decrease its damage for the sake of sustain. HOWEVER, currently it is being utilized twice per Thundering Blast/Turbulence instead of once, which is unintended, rotation-breaking, and limits mobility severely, so the increased cast time should prevent this behavior. [This alone decreases DPS output by approximately 5%].

--- Stop here if the goal is -5% DPS. If it is -10%, keep going. ---

- Stormwatch currently contributes about 9.5% of the spec's total damage when using the normal (non-hardcast) rotation. Reduce the damage done by Stormwatch by 33%. [This decreases DPS output by 3.2% and enables a greater diversity of tacticals to but utilized in PvE.]

- Thundering Blast under Forked Darkness contributes about 1.3% of the spec's total damage, and is not consistent enough to rely upon for burst in PvP. Therefore, rather than reducing its damage by 5%, it can be entirely removed without issue. [This decreases DPS output by 1.3% without any QoL difference.]

- Crushing Darkness under Forked Darkness contributes about 1.2% of the spec's total damage, and is likewise not consistent enough to be useful in PvP. Therefore, reduce its damage by 50%. [This decreases DPS output by 0.6%, getting us to our -10% target.]

 

Thank you for taking the time to read our feedback and I hope you will consider implementing some of my suggestions.

 

Hmm, do I get this right - their goal is to achieve different DPS for classes? That sounds completely stupid to me, but then at least they could provide that info to us.

For example:

lowest DPS -> arsenal -> "because we dont like the gun"

lightning -> "we hate palpatine and his lightning so they should not deal alot of dmg but underperform at minimum by 10% of average dmg"

jugg, mara -> "we play those classes by ourselves, so the dmg output will be at minimum 15% above average dmg. Hey, we develop the game, get over it."

 

With this information I could at least then just unsub and play another (better) game.

Edited September 1, 2022 by WoRei

[Sertar]

Hi all!

 

Just wanted to let you all know I've been reading all this feedback and I really appreciate all the well thought out posts! I wanted to give a couple quick notes to ease some concerns.

 

It's nice to see changes being made and feedback being read. I'm just not too sure if the changes hit the marks, atleast when it comes to balancing for PvE, mostly around R-4 HM. Balancing individual specs to achieve equal representation of all classes is a hard task and will never be perfect. But there are two classes PT and Anni Mara, that bring so much group utility in the form of Rebounder, Predation and Offheal without losing any DPS output, that stacking these instead of bringing other DPS specs is the easiest way to kill most bosses in the game.

 

In addition to that: 3 out of 4 bosses of R-4 Anomaly in HM are generally not played with a traditional 2T, 2H, 4D composition! Is that intended? I can hardly imagine, since playing with 5 DPS or even 6 DPS lets you skip entire phases with mechanics. And to be clear here: This is not limit-testing by a few tryhard groups. This is objectively the easiest way to kill the bosses. One reason why playing with 1 or even 0 tanks is possible is the existence of Taunts on DPS classes (called DwT), and one of them happens to be PT. Guard got removed from PT, Sin and Jugg DPS because of PvP. Maybe it's time to remove Taunt from them because of PvE, or give the ability a different purpose in the DPS specs.

Edited September 2, 2022 by Sertar

[Kass]

Hi all!

 

Just wanted to let you all know I've been reading all this feedback and I really appreciate all the well thought out posts! I wanted to give a couple quick notes to ease some concerns.

 

We are going to look into making some changes or redesigning the Sorcerer's AOE Tactical, as we understand some people have some concerns with the usefulness of slow and also introducing more slows into into the game.

 

I also wanted to take a moment to address some Assassin tank concerns as well. The intention of removing the DR from Severing Slash was simply to not force that choice on all tanks. But seeing as some players are feeling that is too much right now, we have decided to roll back that change for 7.1.1. In a future tank balance pass (more on that later), we may circle back to this and address is another way. If we do end up changing the functionality of Severing Slash, it's important for us to give that mitigation back somewhere else. So, for now, we're going to leave it as it currently stands with the understanding that it probably will be the most popular choice for Assassin Tanks. We will do a pass on that whole choice row in a future balance pass.

 

As for the DPS nerfs, we realize these come off as very major, but I can assure you we are constantly re-assessing these classes and all of this is subject to change. While I can't give any specific details, know that we continue to tune these classes. A good suggestion I saw on the forums was increasing Concealment's Tactical Critical from further from 6s to 8s. Quality of life changes like this that make the class easier to play well are improvements we can augment the changes we are making to their DPS output.

 

Finally, we continue to look at Operation difficulty. The team continues to tweak and adjust R4 and other Operations to ensure a fair balance. We realize any class changes affect that and we are trying to account for them as best we can.

 

As we iterate on these changes I will update this thread.

 

Thanks again,

-Chris

 

Going into 7.1.1 seems like the goal of reducing Time-to-Kill (T2K) for classes is becoming the opposite of the stated intent for 7.0 - I dabble in playing sniper and Virulence is no longer a viable peer to Engineering Sniper, yet your Nerfing it further and without any clarity as to how Virulence was over-performing (?).

 

Darkness Assassin is perfect as is - there's literally no need to touch it.

 

I only play these two classes so I can't speak to any others - but T2K snipers is so short you should not be Nerfing their DPS and Alpha Burst output anymore, let alone how you're gutting Virulence in 7.1.1 from its one critical 'bread-and-butter' Tactical: Ultraviolet Blast.

 

Increasing T2K of other classes vis-a-vis Virulence Sniper makes no sense - please start posting stats and metrics to explain these double nerfs for disciplines like Virulence.

 

Edited September 2, 2022 by Kass

[xxSHOONYxx]

jugg, mara -> "we play those classes by ourselves, so the dmg output will be at minimum 15% above average dmg. Hey, we develop the game, get over it."

 

:D:D

 

They may have changed the idea or the balancing team was different before because this info is of some years back, but by what i recall the idea was for classes to have different dps, melee dot classes were top dps (think it was 5% higher than baseline), then melee burst dps and ranged dot classes (the baseline), and then ranged burst classes (5% lower than baseline)

But by what they are nerfing maybe now is play warrior classes or prepare to see your damage overshadow by them

I personally don't care if the classes i play get nerfed to make every class usable in pve, but nerfing everyone but the two classes that are dominating pve it will just widen the gap even more

Edited September 2, 2022 by xxSHOONYxx

[NicoleMay]

I really don't know why Lightning is being nerfed. A better game design philosophy is to BUFF underperforming classes. Nerfs are needed, but we got PLENTY of that with 7.0 launch.

 

Your damage, survivability, and heals stats in the character menu are WAY OFF. It's closer to about 60%-75% of those values.

 

Whatever you are doing on the dev server, it isn't what's happening on live. Go make some accounts, go join some prog teams under cover, and actually learn the game. Do the game on live, interact with players, and learn how we play so you can better tune the game for us.

 

And again, buffing the lower specs is much better than nerfing the top ones. Buffs are just inherently better game design. Stop listening to the top 1% of players. Listen to the rest of us.

[Exly]

Chris,

 

I think it is time that you communicate for each spec:

 

• How you rate their performance (outperforming, performing as intended or underperforming)?
  
• Do you have actual standards that you are using to make decisions, or are you just winging it?
  
• If you have standards or goals, what are they for dps, healing and tanking for each spec?
  
• What were or are you trying to achieve with changes that have already been made, or you are planning to make.
  
• Do you want some classes to outperform others, or do you want balance.
  

 

Telling us what you plan to do is, even if you ask for our feedback, is not enough.

 

Help me and others to understand what you are seeing, how it is affecting the game, and why changes are needed with a comprehensive spec by spec analysis. If you do this it will be much easier for us buy into what you are doing, and maybe even to better assist you in making changes that would help to improve the game.

 

I know that doing this would open you up to getting feedback that you might not agree with, but I still think that more people would appreciate it than would attack you for it, and in the end, it could help to close the rift that has formed between the dev team, and the people who play the game.

[xxSHOONYxx]

I really don't know why Lightning is being nerfed. A better game design philosophy is to BUFF underperforming classes. Nerfs are needed, but we got PLENTY of that with 7.0 launch.

 

Your damage, survivability, and heals stats in the character menu are WAY OFF. It's closer to about 60%-75% of those values.

 

Whatever you are doing on the dev server, it isn't what's happening on live. Go make some accounts, go join some prog teams under cover, and actually learn the game. Do the game on live, interact with players, and learn how we play so you can better tune the game for us.

 

And again, buffing the lower specs is much better than nerfing the top ones. Buffs are just inherently better game design. Stop listening to the top 1% of players. Listen to the rest of us.

 

I don't think they are listening to anyone in particular about the changes they had in mind, at least people in pve, maybe on pvp those changes make more sense. Balancing classes right now must be hell, imo taticals broke any resemblance of balance possible in the game, you still had classes with insane raid utility before but now you have dot classes like pyro with insane burst because of superheated fuel tactical when dot classes should not excell at burst damage or you have cut to pieces that broke pve fights completely, now even more with shatter burst.

 

Ops now are easier excluding some fights because numbers on shields (scyva nim) or damage (izax omni cannon might be impossible now with operative nerf) are just wrong, IP-CPT included. Most people that i've seen just don't know how to gear for it for whatever reason, but it would still be a good idea to nerf it to give hm level people a chance at progression on the new operation.

 

I appreciat the communication on what they are planning to do, but it still seem to me like they are completely missing the point when it comes to balance. Begining of 7.0 fury was overperforming by a lot and it was nerfed, only so people change utilites and do the same dps on an easier rotation, then shatter burst was nerfed by half and it is still completely ridiculous how you can faceroll fights with adds with a juggernaut with cut to pieces.

 

Nerfing every class but the ones still dominating doesnt make much sense in my eyes, especially after a health nerf on every op. Would be much easier and anger less people to just buff underperforming classes and if ops are too easy on their eyes revert the health nerf on op bosses. And in 8.0 or a big patch like 7.2 or when r4 nim comes out adress the real issue with balancing that is fixing some tacticals and mostly raid utility that marauder, pt, sniper and now jug with slam spam have over the other clases

Edited September 2, 2022 by xxSHOONYxx

[Appleshauce]

Hi all!

 

Just wanted to let you all know I've been reading all this feedback and I really appreciate all the well thought out posts! I wanted to give a couple quick notes to ease some concerns.

 

We are going to look into making some changes or redesigning the Sorcerer's AOE Tactical, as we understand some people have some concerns with the usefulness of slow and also introducing more slows into into the game.

 

I also wanted to take a moment to address some Assassin tank concerns as well. The intention of removing the DR from Severing Slash was simply to not force that choice on all tanks. But seeing as some players are feeling that is too much right now, we have decided to roll back that change for 7.1.1. In a future tank balance pass (more on that later), we may circle back to this and address is another way. If we do end up changing the functionality of Severing Slash, it's important for us to give that mitigation back somewhere else. So, for now, we're going to leave it as it currently stands with the understanding that it probably will be the most popular choice for Assassin Tanks. We will do a pass on that whole choice row in a future balance pass.

 

As for the DPS nerfs, we realize these come off as very major, but I can assure you we are constantly re-assessing these classes and all of this is subject to change. While I can't give any specific details, know that we continue to tune these classes. A good suggestion I saw on the forums was increasing Concealment's Tactical Critical from further from 6s to 8s. Quality of life changes like this that make the class easier to play well are improvements we can augment the changes we are making to their DPS output.

 

Finally, we continue to look at Operation difficulty. The team continues to tweak and adjust R4 and other Operations to ensure a fair balance. We realize any class changes affect that and we are trying to account for them as best we can.

 

As we iterate on these changes I will update this thread.

 

Thanks again,

-Chris

Way to address the main concerns of only 3 dps specs being viable. Oh wait...

 

Tell me what you are going to do to make at least one of the 4 inquisitor dps spec viable. I'm dying for a reason to keep playing but each dev post here without even acknowledging the proble. is killing my hope even more. My sub ends Sunday, please announce something by then.

[Mobiousren]

Just remove this nonsense lightning nerf and we pretend we never saw it. Still in time.

 

Thanks.

[ZUHFB]

Dear BioWare,

 

I really hope you will listen to our feedbacks and revert/remake some changes. I've been playing lightning sorc for a while, and it is currently in a good spot and doesnt require nerf at all. If you really want to remove Halted offensive/Power of the Storm hardcast, then make it 4 second cast, but instead make it autocrit like thundering blast, this would even things out.

 

Nerf to stormwatch is completely unnecessary its not that insane leave it alone or introduce a new tactical that is a better option.

 

No point in nerfing forked thundering blast its like 1-2% of total dps from sorc.

 

The most important thing is, if you make these nerfs, then later on introduce us with Master mode operation of R4, even with new augments lightning will not compete compared to any other good specs. Currently lightning is pretty strong in Veteran R4, but that is only if person is fully geared, using 5% alacrity buff (Zeal guild perk) and Mastery 6-8% guild buff aswell. But when Master Mode comes out, all of the guild buffs will be useless, and that is atleast -3-4k dps to lightning spec on top of nerfs that you want to introduce that is atleast 12% dps nerf.

 

If you look at https://parsely.io/parser/stats then you can see on 6,5mil dummy the AVERAGE DPS of sorc is 27770 and highest is 33k, you should never look at highest parse , even highest parse isnt that insane. So lets say average sorc player does 28k dps and you nerf spec by about 12% that is gonna be like 25k instead.

 

So if R4 MM requires 5-6 dps to kill first boss in Veteran Mode, and Master Mode supposted to be like atleast 2 times harder , lightning dps will not be enough and people will have to bring only meta tier specs.

 

So in conclusion for content like Gods MM and upcoming R4 MM , lightning won't be a viable spec to play at all.

 

If you want to Balance things in PVE that try to tune raid encounters differently and not nerf specs to the ground.

If your desire to balance things in PVP, then try to make a separate stats/talent for PVP.

 

If the nerfs would be like 2-3% overall, that would be okay, but above 10% makes no sense in current Pve situations.

 

Also please understand, there are only of handful people re-clearing R4 HM without having troubles and way way more people that still struggle to past first boss.

 

Just leave Lightning as it is now, it is in good spot right now as a stationary turret dps without much mobility, but if you really want to remove hardcast Halted then make it much longer cast and autocrit when it procs instead, that is currently best solution for removing hardcast rotation, in my opinion hardcast is not an issue, but for a lot of people it is.

 

Thank you for your time and please consider our feedback, for example im on these forums since 2009, so im a long term swtor player and when it comes to lightning sorc I know how to play the class, but if you make these changes you will remove part of the fun of playing the spec and thats one less reason to continue my sub.

 

Best Regards.

 

Lightning wouldn't be viable for gods nim either way, with nerf or without

[ZUHFB]

How is DPS related to having fun with a class, I will never understand that. It is such a sad way to look at an operarion, too many people are theorycrafting the fun out of the game... Just don't take halted offense and when you do don't hardcast it, seems like an easy solution to me.

[Appleshauce]

How is DPS related to having fun with a class, I will never understand that. It is such a sad way to look at an operarion, too many people are theorycrafting the fun out of the game... Just don't take halted offense and when you do don't hardcast it, seems like an easy solution to me.

 

Because for some of us the fun is increasingly difficult challenges When suddenly you do less dps and people don't bring your spec, you hit a difficulty wall and can't ever move on to that next challenge, unless you reroll a spec people will actually take. Even if you don't enjoy that spec. People say a dps nerf takes the fun put of the spec, because they can no longer play it in the content they want to. At the NiM level this was already down to about 6 specs, now it's going to be down to 3 at best.

[ZUHFB]

Because for some of us the fun is increasingly difficult challenges When suddenly you do less dps and people don't bring your spec, you hit a difficulty wall and can't ever move on to that next challenge, unless you reroll a spec people will actually take. Even if you don't enjoy that spec. People say a dps nerf takes the fun put of the spec, because they can no longer play it in the content they want to. At the NiM level this was already down to about 6 specs, now it's going to be down to 3 at best.

 

I see, I guess I cannot relate to that. But in NiM there were rarely more than 3 specs good, don't misunderstand the content was easy enough that you were able to bring underperforming classes, but the meta was always 3 or 4 specs.

 

I don't believe balance is possible. There will always be a class better and that is not a bad thing, every class deserves their time in the sun, except concealment because I hate them. If you now factor in PvP balance too you just end up with people crying about juggernaut dcds even though jug is strong in PvE, what do you do then? Buff it? Nerf it? It just isn't possible. What I'm saying is that you shouldn't get upset about lightning being nerfed, it will come back eventually and that is just the risk you take when being an OTP, if you raid NiM and you can truely only play one class you should really look into another, preferably meta, spec until your main is back. Switch it up a little, the only thing that can happen is that you get a bunch of funny moments! For example: I'm tank main, but when we got bored we did a wishlist and I wished foe DI on PT dps, it was fun! There are so many good memes from that time... as I said, sometimes people just overthink balancing. They straight up theorycraft their own fun out of the game.

[Uzamakiuchi]

Well lighting sorc is death geuss I am forced to play my maurauder for raids now sad day there was zero reason to NERF aa B class to a f class for one we have many hard cast to do damage you choose to increase cast time of halted offense and NERF the DPS like *** most boss's battles sorcerer lighthing are already forced to break cast cause of tactics in operations r4 bosses particular that's even worst I doub I get in any group now after these nerfs with my sorc wich force me to play a mellee dot char lighting sorc was already one of the weakest classes beside everything being channel cast and easy to interrupt and the reason is PvP sorry but why u listen to ***** in PvP ??? Cause honestly a pro would just focus sorc first and they squishy anyhow any mellee class who use interrupt would win hands down but you listening to PvP complainers who probably are bad don't use interrupt nor focus on lighthing sorc with their 320 gear Vs a 330 gear yea the bound to lose and should lose the end of you don't spend the time to learn the class or to get better gear u don't deserve to win but punishing the players who do ridiculous if anything lighting sorc already needed a DPS increase not a *********** NERF

[nyrkverse]

Deception main here, raider.

 

Can't you just give up on Severing Slash? No sin player I know likes it, we didn't put it on our bars *before* it was a choice with Shroud, of all things.

 

The problem with Deception/Infiltration in raids is that we don't bring anything that's uniquely ours in terms of group utility. The armor debuff and the taunt don't cut it because sturdier and more useful classes also have it. There is no reason other than personal preference to run Deception/Infiltration and you need a team that won't suffer for your subpar choice (or be amenable to work around it). To be fair, it's almost always been this way. But it's worse now.

 

The dmg increase to The Awakened Flame is interesting: is it your intention to make the "traditional" way of playing Deception competitive with the current preferred build with BotE? It's worth noting that right now we can't really afford to take the Force Cloak CD reduction (Fade), since it's a choice with AoE DR (PAAIIINNN), but "traditional" Deception needs it (or, well, should really have it because it's clunkier to play it without it).

 

Speaking of clunky, I much preferred Phantom Stride off the GCD, regardless of the occasional orbital flights.

 

A QoL change that needs to happen: either make Voltaic stacks built by Lacerate count for Voltaic Engine or give us a way to build the correct stacks out of combat. Perhaps you could bake them into Dark Embrace. So we could just quietly wait for the pull in stealth, no twirling like maniacs while hyperaware on our stealth keys.

 

PS: I want phase walk back