Premades are hurting pvp participation

[septru]

It gets no support from the assumed better part of the community.

 

This is ridiculous. You're asking good players to approach bad players to teach them, instead of the other way around. You know that's never going to happen, even if pvpers were "nice guys."

 

*Edited

Edited March 2, 2022 by septru

[Floplag]

Average regs solo player gets stomped by premade > realizes he is doing X wrong > starts trying to learn to do X right > sees person doing X right > asks for tips > groups with person > person teaches player how to do Z, W, Y > player gets gud.

 

Short term vs long term. Short term you lose a regs game... Long term you make friends, play the game more (at least a + for BW), and learn to become a better player.

 

And trust me, I know it sucks when you're a good player who solo ques, and gets stomped by premades. But the problem isn't the premades. It's your teammates.

 

God i wish this was true... You know as well as i that the number of times the better players make an real effort to help others, or invite them,. teach them, or anything of that stuff is about 10 times less than those where the insult them and act the fool.

If it wasnt i would agree completely, but we both know thats true.

I am by no means a great player, but im better than average. I know my own class and others very well, you know how many times ive had those players make an effort to talk to me or help me try to get me into ranked... once, back in season 3, from Krea.

For the last 2 years ive largely played more on alts than my main, i lead the boards in most matches, it hasnt happened even once. but ive been called every name in the book on a regular basis.

Maybe you do these things, but most dont. Their only interest is in farming as they already have their little clique and dont need us as anything more than target practice.

Everything you say is right Prum, we all know your one of the best, everyone wants to play with you and your words matter... but youre either in denial or oblivious to whats going on around you.

[Floplag]

I think that premades curbstomping entire teams in 8v8s is a symptom of a larger problem in SWTOR PVP which is that there is a colossal skill-gap between players. Such a skill-gap is caused by the base SWTOR PVE experience being so incredibly easy that players are able to clear 95% of the content without understanding aspects of combat prevalent to PVP such as priority orders with abilities, DCD management, kiting, knowing when to swap targets, applying trauma, taunting, placing guard, swapping guard etc. Not to mention there are players in PVP who are aware of their deficiencies in these areas and make no attempts to improve.

 

This immense skill gap allows for premades of only 4 players to dominate teams made up of 6-8 players. If the average PVPer became more competent and confident, premades wouldn't get away with spawn camping or camping mid. It is really telling to suggest that players should not be able to form groups of 4 or should have a harder time finding a match because the other 8 players are incapable of winning that team fight.

 

I do sympathize with people who object to premades on the grounds that many of them are farming kills rather than objectives, therefore ruining the experience of their teammates and in 7.0 preventing them from finishing missions that would give them better gear/tech fragments. However, if the winner-take-all system we currently have for PVP rewards doesn't get premades to stop number farming, I'm not sure what will.

 

Very good points.

There is a huge gap, youre average PvPer doesnt even really know all the skills on their bar as they are not necessary in comparison to an average PvPer. Should that exclude them from PvP though? Isnt that what regs are for?

Why are all these supposedly higher skilled players, not play ranked, where that skill matters? If they all queued there would be constant pops, ye they dont, why not?

I get it, they dont care about regs, its trivial to them, but what right do they have to ruin the experience for the regs players that dont care about ranked?

It would be different if they made an effort to teach, or help players learn, but thats the last thing they care about choosing to farm an insult instead calling those who actually try against them tryhards... when did that become a bad thing exactly?

Those same players are the ones that lose their minds when a players of lower skill jumps into ranked and hurt their winning chances insulting every ancestor they ever had in the process but have no issues doing the same to them?

sounds a little like wanting to have that cake and eat it to...

[Floplag]

This is ridiculous. You're asking good players to teach bad players how to play, so that the "community can grow." You know that's never going to happen, even if pvpers were "nice guys."

 

No, thats not what im asking at all... i gave up on that long ago. All im asking is for them to not mess up the game for others. If you cant be part of the answer at least dont be the problem.

[Csjbo]

Very good points.

There is a huge gap, youre average PvPer doesnt even really know all the skills on their bar as they are not necessary in comparison to an average PvPer. Should that exclude them from PvP though? Isnt that what regs are for?

Why are all these supposedly higher skilled players, not play ranked, where that skill matters? If they all queued there would be constant pops, ye they dont, why not?

I get it, they dont care about regs, its trivial to them, but what right do they have to ruin the experience for the regs players that dont care about ranked?

It would be different if they made an effort to teach, or help players learn, but thats the last thing they care about choosing to farm an insult instead calling those who actually try against them tryhards... when did that become a bad thing exactly?

Those same players are the ones that lose their minds when a players of lower skill jumps into ranked and hurt their winning chances insulting every ancestor they ever had in the process but have no issues doing the same to them?

sounds a little like wanting to have that cake and eat it to...

 

I don't believe anyone here is seriously suggesting that the lower-skilled players not queue PVP at all, if anything, it's better that they queue as it gives them the opportunity to gain experience and get better. The only instance, where a general lack of PVP understanding should keep someone from queueing, is if it's for ranked because there are actual consequences for losing aside from just time.

 

With regards to advice, most of the players who make up these premades would have no issue offering advice to players who ask. I cannot tell you how many times players have come to me after matches asking for help and we end up exchanging discords and then I share my knowledge with them. The problem though is that I am not a mind reader, I have no idea if the person I killed 10 times is receptive to me whispering them after the match asking if they need help, some people find unsolicited advice, especially after a frustrating match incredibly patronizing. It is the responsibility of the player who wants to improve to ask for advice, not the premade. Even if that player is too shy to ask another PVPer directly for help, they can ask twitch streamers and the latter gives advice.

[The_Anghell]

Honestly, many of the hardest hitting premades in regs are not even in comms. They're also not communicating what they're doing in game. They're just running damage trains from node to node. And getting a couple of strong pvpers solo queued into a match you also solo queue into, definitely makes it competitive enough you can still beat many premades.

[DiegoOnasi]

I've been doing a lot more regs since 7.0 to gear. So have a lot of other players I think....

 

It's clear that premades are the solution to pvp. Premades encourage more competitive play, not decentivize it.

 

I'll give an example. I was in a premade last night trying to finish my weekly. We got Quesh Hutball and we decided to full cheese it. My friend would grab the ball, get pulled by my sorc healer, and pass to me sitting in the endzone. We got 2 goals in before the enemy team realized what we were doing. The enemy team did not have a single premade, but once they realized we were in a premade they instantly shifted strategies, grouped together, and focused us. They ended up winning the game, in part because our teammates had no idea what to do, but in large part because they realized they would have to play together to beat us.

 

This is just one example of how premades make the game more competitive. I have a ton more examples that I can think of over the past couple weeks where premades made the game more fun and competitive, not less.

 

I absolutely love this post. Well done you are bang on the money! I almost always play as part of a 3 or 4 man pre made. Why because its more fun with friends. The guys I play with have kept me playing this game far longer than I would have had I been playing solo.

[DiegoOnasi]

This is ridiculous. You're asking good players to teach bad players how to play, so that the "community can grow." You know that's never going to happen, even if pvpers were "nice guys."

 

Actually you are completely wrong there. I have been running a small guild where for the last year I have been doing exactly that. Ask anyone who knows me, I run heroics without companions because I believe they are bad for the game. I have my own rotation system that while not optimal, gives visual queues and helps people understand how their abilities work in tenden and I offer help or advice to anyone who needs it. I recently sent a lengthy and detailed in game e-mail to a random player who was asking for help with making Carnage work after 7.0

 

Here's the interesting thing. The guy I e-mailed about carnage never even bothered responding and the guild I started and tried so hard to make work collapsed a few months ago because people either got bored of the game or are just not interested in understanding how the game works.

 

Fortunately I am part of another guild, a small group of friends and we almost exclusively play regs. Those guys all know their classes and we help and support each other.

[septru]

Actually you are completely wrong there.

 

You're right. I meant to clarify my post. People are not mind readers and cannot help without first getting asked for help. I've edited my post.

 

God i wish this was true... You know as well as i that the number of times the better players make an real effort to help others, or invite them,. teach them, or anything of that stuff is about 10 times less than those where the insult them and act the fool.

If it wasnt i would agree completely, but we both know thats true.

 

I've been playing this game for a long time. The amount of people who will offer help is surprisingly more than you'd think. And I'm not oblivious or in denial. I know how toxic some pvpers are, depending on who you ask I am probably one of them. But you shouldn't let this stop you from asking... If you never ask, you will never know. And what's the alternative? Just play regs against basic attacking marauders and mercenaries that stand ontop of the pylon to get sap capped?

 

It's the mediocrity of regs that ruins PvP, not premades.

Edited March 2, 2022 by septru

[Floplag]

You're right. I meant to clarify my post. People are not mind readers and cannot help without first getting asked for help. I've edited my post.

 

 

 

I've been playing this game for a long time. The amount of people who will offer help is surprisingly more than you'd think. And I'm not oblivious or in denial. I know how toxic some pvpers are, depending on who you ask I am probably one of them. But you shouldn't let this stop you from asking... If you never ask, you will never know. And what's the alternative? Just play regs against basic attacking marauders and mercenaries that stand ontop of the pylon to get sap capped?

 

It's the mediocrity of regs that ruins PvP, not premades.

 

As have i, since the beginning. And isnt that the point of regs? And who does that ruin it for?

 

Look youre not wrong about a lot of this, there are bascially three types of players in regs. The good, the potential, and the omg lets do pvp for the lulz.

 

I intentionally dont premade most of the time for the challenge, to make myself better. I find it rather boring to be honest when a team of people at my level can so easily dominate a match most of he time. I play many classes to better understand them, im not even maining merc right now. Im not close to that top tier, but im also by no means terrible. I think im pretty representative of the group in question.

 

But what i think you overlook is that many of them, most in fact that actually care about improving or breaking into the ranked scene have asked, or have reached out, and were rebuked or ignored. It cant fall only on them to ask. The better players have to be able to see the potential in others..

 

Personally in my experience i get marked and focused often, but none of those groups has ever reached out to me. And why would i reach out to them for just sitting on me all match and not even bothering to mutter a simple GG or say nice fight over the usual wise cracks... you gotta know that leaves a bad taste and makes any future attempts far less likely.

[MagikFingerz]

Average regs solo player gets stomped by premade > realizes he is doing X wrong > starts trying to learn to do X right > sees person doing X right > asks for tips > groups with person > person teaches player how to do Z, W, Y > player gets gud.

 

Short term vs long term. Short term you lose a regs game... Long term you make friends, play the game more (at least a + for BW), and learn to become a better player.

 

And trust me, I know it sucks when you're a good player who solo ques, and gets stomped by premades. But the problem isn't the premades. It's your teammates.

 

This is ridiculous. You're saying the solution is for every player who does PvP to get better. Gee, is that all? That's the most unrealistic solution I've ever heard. Even if every current PvP participant somehow magically got better, there will always be new players, or players trying new classes.

 

But it doesn't matter, because you can't expect every single player to just "git gud". The problem is matchmaking, which I have no idea how works in this game, but I doubt it's very good even just dividing 16 random players into two teams. Add a premade that gathers the 4 best players of those 16 onto the same team, and the unlucky 8 of the other team is gonna have a bad time no matter what.

[Raansu]

I don't know what you expect from matchmaking when the pvp pool is already really small. I also can't believe this thread is still going. You guys only notice "premades" when you're losing, but probably fail to complain about the group of 4 friends just queuing up and playing but you don't notice it because you're beating them.

 

Just play the damn game and stop worrying about premades so much. Or better yet, GROUP UP. I mostly solo, but pvp can be a ton of fun when you're playing in a group and just screwing around in discord.

Edited March 2, 2022 by Raansu

[Savej]

I don't know what you expect from matchmaking when the pvp pool is already really small. I also can't believe this thread is still going. You guys only notice "premades" when you're losing, but probably fail to complain about the group of 4 friends just queuing up and playing but you don't notice it because you're beating them.

 

Just play the damn game and stop worrying about premades so much. Or better yet, GROUP UP. I mostly solo, but pvp can be a ton of fun when you're playing in a group and just screwing around in discord.

 

This game's not much fun when the q is dead and you get thrown against the same premade on voice over and over. What's wrong with asking for a dev to try to make the game as fair as possible? Why should there be an "allowed" exploit for those that want to farm regs or lowbies during off hours or on lighter servers? BW said they're making changes to PVP as part of their "staggered" 7.0 rollout, maybe they can finally address this.

 

You haven't really addressed players concerns in this thread or any of their arguments - it looks like you're just dismissing them. If you don't care why are you posting? Just to antagonize?

[Raansu]

This game's not much fun when the q is dead and you get thrown against the same premade on voice over and over. What's wrong with asking for a dev to try to make the game as fair as possible? Why should there be an "allowed" exploit for those that want to farm regs or lowbies during off hours or on lighter servers? BW said they're making changes to PVP as part of their "staggered" 7.0 rollout, maybe they can finally address this.

 

You haven't really addressed players concerns in this thread or any of their arguments - it looks like you're just dismissing them. If you don't care why are you posting? Just to antagonize?

 

Grouping up isn't an exploit.

The game already prioritizes group vs group when it can.

The pvp community is way too small to split them off.

Premades are only 4 players.

There's nothing to address because its not a problem.

 

The game is 10 years old. They are never going to remove groups from unranked warzones. Deal with it or move on. Or better yet, group up yourself and realize premades were not the problem as you continue to still get farmed.

Edited March 3, 2022 by Raansu

[XYouMadBroX]

Dude who tf cares lol...hop on over to Lost Ark. It may be annoying weeb anime **** but at least Individual skill can carry matches and in ranked 1 player can solo carry if he is skilled enough. From what I can tell when you queue in a full group it automatically puts you against other full groups because you know; there is like more then 150 people in the entire game pvping. Got like 20 days left on sub and i haven't even bothered to log in and experience this "expansion" SWTOR is a joke and needs to hurry up and die. Like enough is enough. Just let this dumpster fire die already.

[Amunra-amunray]

Grouping up isn't an exploit.

The game already prioritizes group vs group when it can.

The pvp community is way too small to split them off.

Premades are only 4 players.

There's nothing to address because its not a problem.

 

The game is 10 years old. They are never going to remove groups from unranked warzones. Deal with it or move on. Or better yet, group up yourself and realize premades were not the problem as you continue to still get farmed.

 

As always the people who claim to have a notion do not.... before 5.0 pvp had the best balance of pvp for group matching and premade synchronization. However, the following reasons are why people wish to keep pvp match grouping the same:

 

1. They enjoy winning all the time with their team premade match queues. Which are always heavy handed with well geared people against those who are trying to acquire gear or are learning. Very cowardly and lacks true skill.

 

2. Queues will slow. They slow cause those who were winning all the time have to earn the wins like the others and rather not queue anymore cause they have to work for it as well. A very poor excuse.

 

3. Wins only counting exacerbate the issue of heavy handed premade teams because only wins advance the mission quests, which, no matter what reason has been provided should never ever EVER be allowed. If you do content you should get completion. Even if the amount needed is raised. The notion of I dont want to police or ban or kick people from a warzone for being afk or purposely losing matches should have greater attention from the developers and harder consequences.

 

Solution:

Group and Solo Match queue for all Warzones. Additionally bring back 8 man Ranked Warzones with same maps as unranked so that hardcore teams could play games with objectives and also allow only 8 person ranked to group as 8 people for matches.

 

However, I am a strong believer that while those say the queues will slow if a solo match queue is added I beg to differ. The only thing that would be slow is Group unranked warzones cause they, whoever they may be, do not want to have to work hard to acquire their missions just like the rest of the population that is being forced to by a broken match queue system and mission completion system. Wins only must be removed. If you do content you should get completion. Winning is not completing a warzone staying through till the buzzer is... and was always til some idealized notion was created and believed it would resolve the warzone issues. It doesn't people still leave matches early leaving others to suffer, higher geared individuals seemed to be grouped together for the matches against those with poor or far lower ratings, certain classes seemed to be grouped together more often i.e force against tech or mellee against ranged.... these issues need to be serious reviewed and corrected regardless of those who wish to continue to take advantage of a selfish heavy handed system....

[Alericus]

ITS A GAME ITS SUPPOSED TO BE FUN, NOT A GRIND NOT A "LEARNING" EXPERIENCE.

everytime I heard the "git butter" argument I know its a pvp win trading premade troll who has no desire to dismantle his medal wet dream fantasy world. The fact is BW and most games eventually bow to the last remaining pvp/pve guilds who know how to game the system to their advantage, meanwhile drip drip drip the game pop shrinks as vets and newbies drop because well pvp isnt fun and end content is controlled and managed by same end game guilds who act as personal gate keepers to the ops and raids. Truth mmos dont encourage social or grouping they always encourage this end game monopoly and then its champions who benefit from same system troll out to forums and post same shill comments you hear again and again.

 

Truthfully only real way to manage and its not logical or realistic you would need real time RL referees to monitor game play and penalize cheats, win traders and exploits..and this aint gonna happen.

 

What is gonna happen is premades are gonna end pvp participation that's how it always goes. Eventually people will stop playing, I don't care I don't own shares in this company they can slowly destroy the game Ill move on and so will the premades whose little fake empires will be deleted.

[Raansu]

As always the people who claim to have a notion do not.... before 5.0 pvp had the best balance of pvp for group matching and premade synchronization.

 

It's been the same from day 1. Groups get prioritized with other groups. If there is no other group to queue against the system opens up and fills with first come first serve. You would know this if you actually grouped up once in awhile.

[Amunra-amunray]

It's been the same from day 1. Groups get prioritized with other groups. If there is no other group to queue against the system opens up and fills with first come first serve. You would know this if you actually grouped up once in awhile.

 

you missed the mark on quote

 

and no it has not been the same... the system that allocates members of each team has progressively favored those with better stats and wins to fall on the same team even allowed queue sync for an 8 man raid team of pvp teams... so you are actually wrong...

[Raansu]

That's literally not how it works. Keep thinking that though I guess.

[Nickodemous]

Every single time I see posts like this I beat my head against something. Blunt force to the face is better than reading nonsense like this though. I have yet to run into a premade that makes me want to poop my pants.

 

PVP has nothing to do with "premades" but how YOUR team performs against them. It not hard.

[Amunra-amunray]

Every single time I see posts like this I beat my head against something. Blunt force to the face is better than reading nonsense like this though. I have yet to run into a premade that makes me want to poop my pants.

 

PVP has nothing to do with "premades" but how YOUR team performs against them. It not hard.

 

Glad your opinion of others peoples observations of how the instances are working is nonsense. You teach a computer to do anything... and they have progressively taught it to match up those with better win/loss stats, ranked flags, premade 8 teams in unranked and much more .... and the devs will not admit it and keep a silent reality of what is factually occuring with the queues.

 

And FYI your opinion of what is happening is not actually addressing the topic its addressing your feelings of others

 

so unless you can provide evidence to support your conclusion as "nonsense" please stick to the topic of this thread...

[Amunra-amunray]

That's literally not how it works. Keep thinking that though I guess.

 

The action of the queues say otherwise... regardless of your belief in the programming being implemented in this manner...

[Raansu]

The action of the queues say otherwise... regardless of your belief in the programming being implemented in this manner...

 

Its not a belief, Musco himself explained back around 4.0 how their queue system works. Group vs Group is prioritized followed by their hidden MMR system and then first come first server to fill the slots.

 

My own experience has proven their system to be true because when I group up with friends I run into other groups frequently. When I solo queue I don't run into premades all that often. All of you complaining about premades have never ran premades yourself and its obvious.

Edited March 4, 2022 by Raansu

[Amunra-amunray]

Its not a belief, Musco himself explained back around 4.0 how their queue system works. Group vs Group is prioritized followed by their hidden MMR system and then first come first server to fill the slots.

 

My own experience has proven their system to be true because when I group up with friends I run into other groups frequently. When I solo queue I don't run into premades all that often. All of you complaining about premades have never ran premades yourself and its obvious.

 

so you just gonna believe what a facebook profiler is saying about SWTOR developing and programming... he is just explaining what the devs are saying the way it works.... and could be a flat out masqueraring... even recently it was released that those that run master operations were given favoritism for their requrests over what the gen pop is requesting... and done so in discord.

 

So again the expilaination dont mean a thing... if the functionality results this way...

 

Just add a solo match queue and groups can only fight groups period and bring back any match full completion gets credit too... how ridiculous they added that nonsense

 

and no pre 4.0 pvp the match queues were not heavy handed towards Aces against very low geared and solo players... cuase they kept complaining about carrying team members... lol

Edited March 4, 2022 by Amunra-amunray