Premades are hurting pvp participation

[ZUHFB]

Premades only ruin the PvP experience because of the lack of population.

 

At prime time there are around 25-ish players consistently queueing for warzones. So the chances you run into that 4 man premade consistently are pretty high.

 

That pre-made continues to stomp players, thus making them leave the queue. This makes it even MORE likely you run into them, which repeats the process until eventually there is barely anyone queueing.

 

This isn't a problem in other MMOs because there's an actual population. Make no mistake - this problem WILL get worse in 7.0...as these ranked premades will have moddable gear and thus MUCH better allocation of stats and the imbalance will be worse than it ever has been.

 

Best of luck to those still remaining.

 

I don't think premades are ruining PvP, you could just use the opportunity not to win the game because who cares? You can actually fight the premade and just try to survive - why? To improve, playing objectives cannot improve your personal skill. And make no mistake: IF these 'ranked premades' would play objective in lets say huttball they would absolutely destroy your team and the game would be over in 2minutes. Thank god they DON'T do that because I didn't spend 10mins queueing up just do get destroyed in 2minutes, I'd much rather face them time and time again and try to kill one, or get a major cooldown or just survive.

 

I have no idea where the idea came from that if there would be objectives in ranked then it would be more popular, there is no way. Most regs players just have no idea how good some people are.

 

Also I got vs a premade in 4v4s the other day and I won, why did I win? Because I beat them in a 1v3, I hate so say it but unless its passive aggressive or q-sync premade you can carry even against a premade, but granted vs these two you should just run away.

[Rolodome]

I guarantee most of the people who claim premades are just friends goofing around or easy to put together yourself for some wins, would quit if they did their little premade a couple times and got curbstomped each time. People PvP mainly because they are competitive and competitive people don't like losing so badly they could have replaced their character with an NPC and no one would have noticed the difference. Premades imbalance an already imbalanced system all the more. I've not known of any PvP pug system in an MMO that doesn't have this problem to some extent. To really get consistent fun PvP, you need to organize it and coordinate people between factions with relatively balanced teams and scenarios. That seems to be the standard in MMOs. Nothing about pug systems make any sense for achieving remotely fair matchups, yet MMOs still do them because they are a cheap and easy way to allow people to do quick content, without having to do any of that strange stuff like talking to other human beings and spending time with them. Social games that are not really social, it's a bizarre point we are at.

[AlrikFassbauer]

I guarantee most of the people who claim premades are just friends goofing around or easy to put together yourself for some wins, would quit if they did their little premade a couple times and got curbstomped each time.

 

"Most".

 

You didn't try but you did. You're not even addressing what I am saying. You're just complaining about it.

 

You said it takes no skills to beat these premades

At the same time, the people complaining in this topic cannot beat them.

Therefore, it logically follows that they have less than no skill

 

Are you ever actually going to address this?

 

What did YOU actually say ? I do not understand you.

Edited January 29, 2022 by AlrikFassbauer

[Rolodome]

"Most".

No idea what point you're trying to make here.

[Whaitwhutwalrus]

I'd be all for this as an option and I think most people would. The absolute best games are when there's a large group in discord and we all get into the same match on different teams. Maybe you should try making some friends.

 

haha yes.

[Rion_Starkiller]

Solos are ruining my premade pvp fun.

 

Remove solo queue from reg warzones!

[QuiveringPotato]

By making the weekly require wins only to count, we have seen an increased amount of premades farming quick wins since premades are always more organized and focused, often times literally steamrolling the enemy team to the point everyone realizes it is pointless and afk.

 

Worse though is the fact that when people keep seeing the same names in the enemy team steamrolling them they are starting to stop quing because it is never fun to have a pug vs premade and there is no point getting destroyed.

 

The premades are causing such a big problem that people stop queing to avoid them

 

And we go from 8v8 warzones to suddenly non stop arena matches on high activity times, either let losses count or ban premades from queing together.

 

this is a strange perspective. on star forge, in my experience, I have not seen a premade that's actually been focused on playing objectives or winning in a super long time.

 

most of the guilds running premades these days are washed-up ranked players, or fairly new players who only know how to deathmatch, and it's really not that difficult to beat most of these guys in 8v8. hell, most of them will make fun of you for playing objectives and not tunneling damage or heal stats, lmao

[MagikFingerz]

this is a strange perspective. on star forge, in my experience, I have not seen a premade that's actually been focused on playing objectives or winning in a super long time.

 

most of the guilds running premades these days are washed-up ranked players, or fairly new players who only know how to deathmatch, and it's really not that difficult to beat most of these guys in 8v8. hell, most of them will make fun of you for playing objectives and not tunneling damage or heal stats, lmao

 

Well, on Darth Malgus it seems like most matches are a premade vs a pug group, and it makes the weekly so much harder to get for pugs. Losing more than half to premades and only winning maybe 50% of the pug vs pug rounds, just makes the whole thing really annoying.

 

I just don't see why it can't be like it was in the past, play x matches and wins count double? Hell, make wins count triple if you want, just don't make me play 5 games in a row without making any progress...

[raruofdoom]

.....I just don't see why it can't be like it was in the past, play x matches and wins count double? Hell, make wins count triple if you want, just don't make me play 5 games in a row without making any progress...

 

Totally agree, make all matches count towards progress, please!

[Floplag]

Totally agree, make all matches count towards progress, please!

 

This got ruined by the same thing that is currently ruining GSF, AFKers.

To many people want something for nothing and dont care how they mess up other peoples game play. This action was taken due to AFKers, and it will be applied soon to GSF over the other way around for the same reasons.

[MagikFingerz]

This got ruined by the same thing that is currently ruining GSF, AFKers.

To many people want something for nothing and dont care how they mess up other peoples game play. This action was taken due to AFKers, and it will be applied soon to GSF over the other way around for the same reasons.

 

Then they need to improve their afk detection, rather than ruin it for everyone. Especially as long as premades are in the same queue as pugs.

[AlrikFassbauer]

There are people on either side loving it to destroy things for others :

 

AFK ones

Premades

 

Premades might even consist of like-mindes people who love to hinder others from having fun - this exists in RL as well.

It's like "look how he tries to get rid of us !" followed by a laugh. Some people find good feelings in destroying the fun of others, no matter which way they do it.

 

Here, in these forums, the defenders of premades seem not to realize that, that there might be premade players among them who do so.

 

And those accused of being AFK - well, they ruin as well, but in a different way. And being AFK in GSF means a different thing than for PvP - except Arena and Hypergate. So you'll have to be careful how you word it.

 

In the end, PvP is often meant by the self-proclaimed "real" PvPers as a game "not for the sensitive ones", so to say, as for them - the self-called "real ones" it is only "all or nothing", and an expression of adrenaline.

 

I can imagine young men - especially men - saying "but it was fun ruining their game !" followed by a group-collective laughter - but 20 years later tthe same ones who had so much fun in destroying the game of others might actually become angry because "one looney destroyed the game for my son" or "for my daughter".

 

I tend to think that this is all a matter of perspective - and that some PvPers just don't want to get into the perspective of others. They simply wand adrenaline and want to feel great - even if this means by destroying the fun of weaker ones.

 

This is in my opinion even a hedonistic or even a narcistic move : Make others feel bad so that the own self feels better.

 

The problem is, that PvP has to live with that.

Edited March 1, 2022 by AlrikFassbauer

[septru]

I've been doing a lot more regs since 7.0 to gear. So have a lot of other players I think....

 

It's clear that premades are the solution to pvp. Premades encourage more competitive play, not decentivize it.

 

I'll give an example. I was in a premade last night trying to finish my weekly. We got Quesh Hutball and we decided to full cheese it. My friend would grab the ball, get pulled by my sorc healer, and pass to me sitting in the endzone. We got 2 goals in before the enemy team realized what we were doing. The enemy team did not have a single premade, but once they realized we were in a premade they instantly shifted strategies, grouped together, and focused us. They ended up winning the game, in part because our teammates had no idea what to do, but in large part because they realized they would have to play together to beat us.

 

This is just one example of how premades make the game more competitive. I have a ton more examples that I can think of over the past couple weeks where premades made the game more fun and competitive, not less.

Edited March 1, 2022 by septru

[Sounders_Fan]

un-balanced teams are the problem. sure a premade can help create the unbalanced teams but they are a symptom of the problem that is created by the games match making.

 

if there are 2 solid pre-mades in queue, then they should be matched up against each other. but there are still for some reason times when they are teamed up against pugs.

 

sometimes the premade in queue that has a healer on the team also gets the solo queuing healer. resulting in a game of pugs with no heals against a pre-made and 2 heals. Since the game doesn't allow 2 healers to queue together, then it should also split them up in the match making. Over the weekend I had games where my team had no heals and the other team had 3 healers.

[AndriusAjax]

I'm not sure premades necessarily make the matches better... it depends on what they do. Safe to say they can dictate the tone of a match. That said, when premades play objectives, the games are quite fun. [And can we be real.... ppl should stop asking for premades queue. It's never going to happen. Nor should it]

 

I was turtling in Queshball with like <2 minutes left the other night. Both teams got the memo, and we all turtled down low - obviously in a 1 or 2 point game with little time left, there's no need to risk fumbling the ball up top for an unneeded goal. Well... A few opponents worked my health to roughly half for a moment... Then I got pulled up to the pipe. Then I got knocked or slipped, and the fall damage took me to 10% hp and caused a little panic. I mean, it wasn't the most genius play ever, but I had never been pulled in an effort to apply fall damage to take the ball. Fun stuff.

 

So yea, in a similar vein, premades actively trying to win can elevate objective gameplay, and even result in some innovation.

 

I just hope people continually want gear/wins. I worry that in week or so, when most people are geared up, we'll see regs slip back into winning being inconsequential... id like to see that slow drip gear asap.

[Floplag]

Premades do not make matches better, thats silly.

Of all the possible match making scenarios the only one improved by it if is it is against another premade. If they wanted that they would be queueing ranked.

Premades are what they are, it goes with the territory, but pretending its somehow beneficial for the rest of us to get our heads stomped in by a coordinated group is just absurd.

I truly wish those who do this would just own it and be honest.

[septru]

Premades do not make matches better, thats silly.

Of all the possible match making scenarios the only one improved by it if is it is against another premade. If they wanted that they would be queueing ranked.

Premades are what they are, it goes with the territory, but pretending its somehow beneficial for the rest of us to get our heads stomped in by a coordinated group is just absurd.

I truly wish those who do this would just own it and be honest.

 

I am owning it. Premades make regs better.

 

The more I play regs the more I realize how bad the average pvper is. And I'm not name calling or being rude (so mod don't delete this post), just stating a observable fact. The average pvp sucks. They are so bad they can't even comprehend how bad they are, and that probably goes for a lot of the forum warriors too. They stand ontop of the node, they overheat, they spend half their abilities basic attacking...

 

If you want to get better you need to go against better players. That is just simple logic. It might suck going against premades. You might get rolf stomped agaisnt premades. I died 15 times in a hypergate yesterday, because the enemy premade knew who I was. But that is part of the competition. If you want to get better you need to play against better players. It's the mediocrity of regs that ruins PvP, not premades.

[Floplag]

I am owning it. Premades make regs better.

 

The more I play regs the more I realize how bad the average pvper is. And I'm not name calling or being rude (so mod don't delete this post), just stating a observable fact. The average pvp sucks. They are so bad they can't even comprehend how bad they are, and that probably goes for a lot of the forum warriors too. They stand ontop of the node, they overheat, they spend half their abilities basic attacking...

 

If you want to get better you need to go against better players. That is just simple logic. It might suck going against premades. You might get rolf stomped agaisnt premades. I died 15 times in a hypergate yesterday, because the enemy premade knew who I was. But that is part of the competition. If you want to get better you need to play against better players. It's the mediocrity of regs that ruins PvP, not premades.

 

If the average pvpers sucks, shouldnt playing anyone better, in any combination, help? What do they learn from 2, 3, 4 vs 1? This is a failed argument. No one learns anything from getting globaled.

[septru]

If the average pvpers sucks, shouldnt playing anyone better, in any combination, help? What do they learn from 2, 3, 4 vs 1? This is a failed argument. No one learns anything from getting globaled.

 

Can't learn how to pop cds to prevent getting globalled against basic attacking marauders.

Edited March 1, 2022 by septru

[Floplag]

Can't learn how to pop cds to prevent getting globalled against basic attacking marauders.

 

You of all people know thats not even close to what im talking about.

[Csjbo]

I think that premades curbstomping entire teams in 8v8s is a symptom of a larger problem in SWTOR PVP which is that there is a colossal skill-gap between players. Such a skill-gap is caused by the base SWTOR PVE experience being so incredibly easy that players are able to clear 95% of the content without understanding aspects of combat prevalent to PVP such as priority orders with abilities, DCD management, kiting, knowing when to swap targets, applying trauma, taunting, placing guard, swapping guard etc. Not to mention there are players in PVP who are aware of their deficiencies in these areas and make no attempts to improve.

 

This immense skill gap allows for premades of only 4 players to dominate teams made up of 6-8 players. If the average PVPer became more competent and confident, premades wouldn't get away with spawn camping or camping mid. It is really telling to suggest that players should not be able to form groups of 4 or should have a harder time finding a match because the other 8 players are incapable of winning that team fight.

 

I do sympathize with people who object to premades on the grounds that many of them are farming kills rather than objectives, therefore ruining the experience of their teammates and in 7.0 preventing them from finishing missions that would give them better gear/tech fragments. However, if the winner-take-all system we currently have for PVP rewards doesn't get premades to stop number farming, I'm not sure what will.

Edited March 1, 2022 by Csjbo

[AndriusAjax]

If the average pvpers sucks, shouldnt playing anyone better, in any combination, help? What do they learn from 2, 3, 4 vs 1? This is a failed argument. No one learns anything from getting globaled.

 

I think y'alls disconnect is that he thinks players increasing their skills is what makes premades in the 8v8 queue better, while youre looking at it from a "I'm just trying to play the game" perspective. Both are kinda correct. Some people view regs as practice and others view it as a game in and of itself. I'm in the latter. [And why people think they're mutually exclusive is another question...] But yes, better players will show you your mistakes quicker or in ways that many 8v8ers cant/won't. This is true.

 

But at the same time, that doesn't mean premades = making 8v8s a better place. For every one casual you improve, you may turn two others back to final fantasy. So it's not as simple as "premades = make players better = regs better". It just depends on what you're trying to get out of regs. That said, im not saying premades in 8v8s are bad at all. I think any player who gets blasted and then quits pvp is soft af. But there's an eye of the beholder thing at play here.

 

For me, I'm just want to see next level, 5head objectives, and premades are probably needed for that since we have no in-game Coms. We see smart 4v4 strategy every time someone streams Granked. Solo ranked, dealing with being globalled, proper use of dcds/breaks being paramount, etc. We see that every day. But I want to see 8 badAmofos playing objectives against 8 badAmofos. That sounds amazing to me. I can just imagine a huttball with triple sorc pulls. A stealth waiting to push in ez, jug leaps coupled with sorc pulls, oh the possibilities. I honestly wonder what sort of 5head plays we'd see...

[AndriusAjax]

I think that premades curbstomping entire teams in 8v8s is a symptom of a larger problem in SWTOR PVP which is that there is a colossal skill-gap between players. Such a skill-gap is caused by the base SWTOR PVE experience being so incredibly easy that players are able to clear 95% of the content without understanding aspects of combat prevalent to PVP such as priority orders with abilities, DCD management, kiting, knowing when to swap targets, applying trauma, taunting, placing guard, swapping guard etc. Not to mention there are players in PVP who are aware of their deficiencies in these areas and make no attempts to improve.

 

This immense skill gap allows for premades of only 4 players to dominate teams made up of 6-8 players. If the average PVPer became more competent and confident, premades wouldn't get away with spawn camping or camping mid. It is really telling to suggest that players should not be able to form groups of 4 or should have a harder time finding a match because the other 8 players are incapable of winning that team fight.

 

I do sympathize with people who object to premades on the grounds that many of them are farming kills rather than objectives, therefore ruining the experience of their teammates and in 7.0 preventing them from finishing missions that would give them better gear/tech fragments. However, if the winner-take-all system we currently have for PVP rewards doesn't get premades to stop number farming, I'm not sure what will.

 

Really good points.

[septru]

You of all people know thats not even close to what im talking about.

 

Average regs solo player gets stomped by premade > realizes he is doing X wrong > starts trying to learn to do X right > sees person doing X right > asks for tips > groups with person > person teaches player how to do Z, W, Y > player gets gud.

 

Short term vs long term. Short term you lose a regs game... Long term you make friends, play the game more (at least a + for BW), and learn to become a better player.

 

And trust me, I know it sucks when you're a good player who solo ques, and gets stomped by premades. But the problem isn't the premades. It's your teammates.

Edited March 1, 2022 by septru

[Floplag]

I think y'alls disconnect is that he thinks players increasing their skills is what makes premades in the 8v8 queue better, while youre looking at it from a "I'm just trying to play the game" perspective. Both are kinda correct. Some people view regs as practice and others view it as a game in and of itself. I'm in the latter. [And why people think they're mutually exclusive is another question...] But yes, better players will show you your mistakes quicker or in ways that many 8v8ers cant/won't. This is true.

 

But at the same time, that doesn't mean premades = making 8v8s a better place. For every one casual you improve, you may turn two others back to final fantasy. So it's not as simple as "premades = make players better = regs better". It just depends on what you're trying to get out of regs. That said, im not saying premades in 8v8s are bad at all. I think any player who gets blasted and then quits pvp is soft af. But there's an eye of the beholder thing at play here.

 

For me, I'm just want to see next level, 5head objectives, and premades are probably needed for that since we have no in-game Coms. We see smart 4v4 strategy every time someone streams Granked. Solo ranked, dealing with being globalled, proper use of dcds/breaks being paramount, etc. We see that every day. But I want to see 8 badAmofos playing objectives against 8 badAmofos. That sounds amazing to me. I can just imagine a huttball with triple sorc pulls. A stealth waiting to push in ez, jug leaps coupled with sorc pulls, oh the possibilities. I honestly wonder what sort of 5head plays we'd see...

 

 

Also well stated, especially the part about turning them elsewhere. Whether its back to PvE, to other games.. whatever. This is exactly why PvP in this game doesnt grow. It gets no support from the assumed better part of the community.