Premades are hurting pvp participation

[XYouMadBroX]

Maybe people play on different servers or different time zones and have limited time in game.

 

Telling someone to stop whining because a game system is unfair doesn’t help anyone.

 

One could even say you are possibly trolling with inflammatory language or attacking legitimate posters because you are one of these premade ROFLSTOMP players who needs an unfair advantage.

 

Actually I haven't played ranked or even SWTOR since S6 and have only recently started playing again so noone I know even still plays. I just been playing regs solo and it doesn't really bother me if I win or lose. One could say by the looks of your posting history you don't even play the game just whine endlessly about PvP and what needs to change on the forums. Maybe if you post about what's wrong with PvP 1000 more times the devs will listen to you or maybe they won't. Also I don't need a premade to "ROFLSTOMP" the quality of alleged pvpers I have encountered in the past few weeks.

[Floplag]

Hopefully that incentivizes players to make their own premade. I get that some players want to play solo, but group should always be incentivized because like I said, you learn more faster in a group than you do by yourself.

 

But the rest of your argument is understood and I agree.

 

You know better... you know this isnt the case.

When you obliterate people and global them, or eviscerate them and their ancestors for not playing how you want them to, it doesnt make them want to get better or group up, it makes them go back to PvE.

Very few actually take it as a positive.

[HaoZhao]

9/10 premades are trashy number farmers who need 40 games to finish a 10 game weekly. I've lost count of how many times I've walked right by number farmers with the Huttball floating over my head, unchallenged. The tunnel vision is that strong.

 

I've queued solo and have absolutely crushed premades on every map. Play for objectives and you can win.

[TrixxieTriss]

9/10 premades are trashy number farmers who need 40 games to finish a 10 game weekly. I've lost count of how many times I've walked right by number farmers with the Huttball floating over my head, unchallenged. The tunnel vision is that strong.

 

I've queued solo and have absolutely crushed premades on every map. Play for objectives and you can win.

 

This is also a true statement ^^.

It’s also my opinion that number farmers are just as, if not more destructive to reg pvp as ROLFSTOMP premades are.

And number farming premades are the worst of all because they automatically take upwards of 4 positions in your team of people not trying to win.

I really hope BioWares supposed 7.2 changes are going to address this and encourage players to start playing to win instead of number farming.

They have a lot to do if they want to improve reg and I dare say, ranked pvp. The whole pvp eco system needs a revamp from top to bottom or it will continue to rot and die.

[Suirma]

I'm on the side with the premades should be separate from the solo que for regs and unranked, here... but I play an operative in PVP, so that would definitely be to my benefit, since a premade is typically a huge bane to my existence in PVP. But, even if I step back and accept my bias, I still don't want to play in a premade. The few times I've played in a pre-made group... it's.. unfulfilling. There's no challenge in it. It's too easy. And that sucks.

 

Honest to god, I used to be one of the players who complained regularly about getting facerolled by premades in voidstar and huttball, but since I started embracing the solo que, it's not that offensive when it happens. At the very least I can focus target one of them and maybe stem the tide long enough for my team to get back in the picture and make it competitive. Or I can get my 8 medals for some conquest points. Or-the real fun thing-if I can stealth an objective and/or stealth out before getting killed.

 

But I only get that kind of fun if I'm playing solo. If I'm playing in a group, then I'm not just being judged by my group members. I'm also relying on them to not screw up and cost a match, which can put a damper on the friendship and the group, especially in the (I'll admit it) hyper-competitive PVP environment. In a good hypergate or 4v4 match, a single screw-up can cost the game, and that's... depressing. I'd rather play through that kind of depression with strangers who are going to forget it-and probably not even remember my toon-than with someone I'm going to have to play with again, probably that same night.

 

And finally, if you're the kind of person who thinks that solo players should go asking pre-made groups-who just wiped the floor with them in a voidstar match and then gloated about it in gen chat or emotes-for advice on how to PVP... god help you, because that's the kind of weird social control behavior that starts cults and abusive relationships. "Sure, you can join our gang, but first we have to beat you up, and then you have to ask really nicely and we'll teach you our ways."

 

Like... really? THAT'S how you learned to play PVP? I just read guidebooks online, watched some videos, and then practiced over and over and over again. The other way sounds... kinda cringy. It's just a continuation of the toxic behavior thats killing ranked. Nobody should have to go asking premades for advice on how to PVP. Maybe try asking in guild, instead?

 

If anything, premades should be limited to 1-2 full teams per guild, and set up in their own league kind of like the NFL where you have a regular season of so many games, and then a playoff season in a format like March Madness. Then regs could be just solo ques for people who don't want to play in groups.

[TmoneyTime]

Can someone answer my question. Why can't you make your own group.

 

Haven't seen an answer yet.

I know the real answer but let's see what people think.

[ralphieceaser]

Can someone answer my question. Why can't you make your own group.

 

Haven't seen an answer yet.

I know the real answer but let's see what people think.

Because people dont like socializing and just want to have fun, but you want to FORCE socializing

[DougTheNoob]

Because people dont like socializing and just want to have fun, but you want to FORCE socializing

 

But it's a mmo,so socializing is a must. Nobody forcing anybody to make premades to compete.But its easier to scucced in a group,ofc.I q solo and with some of my friends,sometimes,and I have fun in both ways.

I personaly think that a premade vs premade separate q would be really good,but the problem is the population of pvpers, right now.

[ralphieceaser]

But it's a mmo,so socializing is a must.

The success of solo que(Referring to soloque for group content in mmorpgs in general) proved that mmorpgs are enjoyed by many more that have a solo mindset and dont want to socialize so your attempts to pretend mmorgs=forced socialization are wrong.

 

You remember the pre soloque era where you needed to talk with others to even do a dungeon? That era is thankfully long gone because many devs realized socialization is a barrier to content and a lot more people started doing content they wouldnt otherwise do thanks to solo que removing the socialization barrier.

 

So no, mmorpg does not mean forced socialization, if anything it seems more and more are treating mmorpgs are single player games where other players exist to enhance our experience, that is why nobody talks during FPs, we are there for the reward and gameplay, not to make friends.

Edited December 16, 2021 by ralphieceaser

[TmoneyTime]

Because people dont like socializing and just want to have fun, but you want to FORCE socializing

 

That's a you don't want to do something. That's not the question.

 

Im asking Why CAN'T not why you don't want to.

[septru]

Because people dont like socializing and just want to have fun, but you want to FORCE socializing

 

No one is forcing you to do anything. If you don't want to socialize in a MMO than that's fine, just don't complain when you get beat by a premade.

[septru]

That’s not an incentive, it’s a punishment to intimidate players to conform to other players way of thinking.

But it's not other player's way of thinking. It's how the game is designed to be played. The game is a MMO. No matter how you put it, the purpose of the game is to group up. Yes, this game has a lot of solo and story mode content by its casual nature, but that doesn't change the fact that at the end of the day the devs want to incentivize group play. You can argue with me all you want about it, but I'm just pointing out a fact. Look at what the devs are doing with NiM. The game incentivizes group play.

Edited December 16, 2021 by septru

[TrixxieTriss]

But it's not other player's way of thinking. It's how the game is designed to be played. The game is a MMO. No matter how you put it, the purpose of the game is to group up. Yes, this game has a lot of solo and story mode content by its casual nature, but that doesn't change the fact that at the end of the day the devs want to incentivize group play. You can argue with me all you want about it, but I'm just pointing out a fact. Look at what the devs are doing with NiM. The game incentivizes group play.

 

But we know the reg system isn’t a fair system otherwise they would use the same system for ranked

 

If it’s good enough to seperate premade and solos in ranked to make it fair, it’s good enough to do the same in regs.

 

You can’t have it both ways.

[ralphieceaser]

No one is forcing you to do anything. If you don't want to socialize in a MMO than that's fine, just don't complain when you get beat by a premade.

"Dont complain when something unfair or unjust happens"

 

You know, it never hurts to improve society when such problems arise, especially when the solutions given are "force yourself to socialize and make your own premade" when you know full well people wont, they ll just quit instead.

 

So your solution is kinda useless if people dont use it, a realistic solution is something the benefits and is embraced by most.

 

Removing premades suddenly makes casual warzones a lot more fun and benefits everyone, outside of a minority of people who want to abuse premades which is kinda wrong so, it actually benefits everyone relevant.

[TmoneyTime]

But we know the reg system isn’t a fair system otherwise they would use the same system for ranked

 

If it’s good enough to seperate premade and solos in ranked to make it fair, it’s good enough to do the same in regs.

 

You can’t have it both ways.

 

They should let premades in arena que. Yolo Ranked is a joke anyway. All we need is ranked 8s back. The whole ranked 8s didn't have participation was garbage. Weekends there would be 8 teams in que. And that's back when servers were more wide spread

Edited December 18, 2021 by TmoneyTime

[ralphieceaser]

They should let premades in arena que. Yolo Ranked is a joke anyway

 

AH the complete refusal to admit that what you like is not popular xD

 

Grouping is not popular, socialization in mmorpgs is not popular, why?

Solo que was incredibly successful when it was introduced in any game because suddenly people could do dungeons, pvp and all forms of content that previously were blocked by the barrier of socialization and having to talk to others to even do such content.

 

You see, the majority of players dont want to socialize, we want to enjoy the gameplay and that is why Solo que has been a success in any mmorpg, the swtor's pvp solo que is quite great because it is where solo ranked people go to enjoy arenas, your suggestion would do nothing but push all those people away so you can play your premade vs premade game.

 

Your suggested way of playing is toxic to the average player and actually hurts the mmorpg community because people want to enjoy good gameplay, if the gameplay is just getting farmed by a premade they just quit.

 

Oh and when they do that in time, you end up with a wildstar because no mmorpg can sustain itself on the hardcore group focused community, casuals and people with the solo mindset is what drives mmorpgs forward financially.

[TrixxieTriss]

 

They should let premades in arena que. Yolo Ranked is a joke anyway. All we need is ranked 8s back. The whole ranked 8s didn't have participation was garbage. Weekends there would be 8 teams in que. And that's back when servers were more wide spread

 

I can already hear the solo ranked guys all the way here in Australia, screaming NOoooooooo 😂

 

But I agree, they should never have gotten rid of ranked 8s. They didn’t even do one season to see if it would work.

Edited December 19, 2021 by TrixxieTriss

[Sounders_Fan]

 

You see, the majority of players dont want to socialize, we want to enjoy the gameplay

 

Question: if all you want is to enjoy the solo game play; why are you playing a multiplayer game?

[XYouMadBroX]

Question: if all you want is to enjoy the solo game play; why are you playing a multiplayer game?

 

I wish I still had my groups playing from years ago. I will never understand these "solo" players. Probably zoomers who grew up with Ipads and stuff.

[septru]

Let me ask, do you think it would be fair if they combined the solo ranked queue and group queues together?

 

 

But we know the reg system isn’t a fair system otherwise they would use the same system for ranked

 

If it’s good enough to seperate premade and solos in ranked to make it fair, it’s good enough to do the same in regs.

.

 

You keep commenting on ranked as if 1) it's relevent 2) it proves your point. But it's neither. I think they should take away solo ranked and make group ranked the only ranked. I think there are a lot of intrinsic problems with ranked as a solo format which could be solved by replacing it with only a group format.

 

But none of this is relevant to a discussion about premades in regs. Regs is not ranked. Regs, moreso than anything else, is a place to learn. And there is no better way to learn than to group up and learn from others. If you don't want/can't group up, that's fine. But we should be incentivizing group play. Not punishing it.

 

And I get it. Premades create unfair games, and you don't learn anything by getting rolfstomped. I play regs too. I know. But your reaction to getting rolfstomped should be to make your own premade so that you can make competitive, fun, regs games that you can learn from... not whinning about it on the forums. This is the point that you continually miss when you bring up ranked as some kind of equivalent to regs to deflect from the truth.

[ralphieceaser]

You keep commenting on ranked as if 1) it's relevent 2) it proves your point. But it's neither. I think they should take away solo ranked and make group ranked the only ranked. I think there are a lot of intrinsic problems with ranked as a solo format which could be solved by replacing it with only a group format.

You didnt understand, I was not just referring to Swtor's solo ranked pvp system, I was referring to all forms of solo que existing in mmorpgs, and how successful they had been in getting people that others WOULDNT TOUCH that group oriented content.

 

I assume that should make it clear that there's people who want play such content and want the rewards behind such content, but they refuse to do it if they have to deal with socialization, since if you remember the pre soloque lfg era, people had to socialize to even get in dungeons in games like WoW.

 

So you see, telling people "just socialize and make a group to do content" pretty much results in people NOT DOING said content or outright quitting therefore you have a lot less players playing, which I know elitists usually like.

 

So trying to force your "just do something you hate" is not really a valid argument, if anything it is extremely toxic to both the community and the financial side of the game, because it is the casuals who dont spend a lot of time socializing that makes mmorpgs survive financially, not the high end organized social people.

 

So you might need to start focusing on reality and how most people play the game rather then expect people to play your way because that never worked, people just quit if the game aint fun because you are forcing them to play your way .

Edited December 20, 2021 by ralphieceaser

[TrixxieTriss]

You keep commenting on ranked as if 1) it's relevent 2) it proves your point. But it's neither. I think they should take away solo ranked and make group ranked the only ranked. I think there are a lot of intrinsic problems with ranked as a solo format which could be solved by replacing it with only a group format.

 

But none of this is relevant to a discussion about premades in regs. Regs is not ranked. Regs, moreso than anything else, is a place to learn. And there is no better way to learn than to group up and learn from others. If you don't want/can't group up, that's fine. But we should be incentivizing group play. Not punishing it.

 

And I get it. Premades create unfair games, and you don't learn anything by getting rolfstomped. I play regs too. I know. But your reaction to getting rolfstomped should be to make your own premade so that you can make competitive, fun, regs games that you can learn from... not whinning about it on the forums. This is the point that you continually miss when you bring up ranked as some kind of equivalent to regs to deflect from the truth.

 

Ranked is totally relevant to this discussion because it demonstrates BioWares inconsistent approach to the whole of pvp.

 

They made two seperate queues for ranked because they 1) know it’s unfair to put premades against solos in a competitive environment and 2) they know more people prefer to play solo ranked over group ranked.

 

It also doesn’t matter wether you or I agree that ranked should be group or solo only (even though I agree with you it should only be group). Because BioWare have data that shows them that solos is more popular.

 

So if they have the data that shows that solo ranked is more popular than group ranked, then they know most competitive pvpers prefer queuing solo.

 

Therefore, BioWare should have implemented a group and solo queue for regs at the same time as they did one for ranked. Then we would have all seen what was more popular, Premades vs Premades or Solo queuing.

 

But BioWare didn’t do the logical and fairest thing for the reg community while they had enough population to experiment with. Now we have a depleted player base in both numbers and skills. So that splitting the queue would actually slow down pops so much for premades that it probably wouldn’t pop anymore now than group ranked does.

 

I like(d) playing in premades years ago when we had the population to support them and mostly get matched against other premades of similar skills. But we don’t have that anymore. Now we have a matchmaking system that doesn’t work properly and works worse with less players.

 

Premades as they are now are actually killing the queue. They aren’t helping anyone get better and the system isn’t encouraging anyone to group up to counter them. People just stop queuing instead.

 

Add the other changes BioWare have done over the last 2 years (deserter debuffs and wins only) and can see how none of it is enticing to new or retuning players. People still rage quit en mass when they see a premade or idiots in their team. People still death match instead of trying to win.

 

It makes reg pvp less enjoyable when you add all 3 of those negative effects together.

 

I played 7 lvl 75 matches yesterday for the first time in 4 months. I won zero matches because of premades on the other side in every match. 4/7 were arena too. So that means there weren’t enough in the queue for 8v8 matches. And those premades were all stealths. I got the most DPS and kills and took the most damage on my team in all 7 matches, but I still lost from no fault of my own.

 

I didn’t get to progress my daily or weekly and the whole experience was totally unenjoyable. I can only imagine how absolutely f***ing terrible it will be for people when BioWare reset our dailies and weeklies that are linked to gearing.

Premades are going to kill reg pvp for good in 7.0 if BioWare goes ahead with that dumb arse idea.

[Ramalina]

Ralphie, you keep saying the system is unfair. It is not. Unfair would be if the game forced a decision at character creation to be either solo mode or social mode, then prevented solo mode characters from being able to group and then threw them in a mixed queue. In the game EVERYONE is able to group and gain the advantages of grouping. Deliberately choosing to opt out of an available competitive advantage is not unfair, it's just stupid. It's, a game though, so if being stupid is fun, then go ahead and do that because that's what games are supposed to be about. Just don't expect to win against people who are playing smart.

 

As for the anti-social argument, that's a bunch of rubbish at it's foundation. Social primates are deeply social animals to the point that lack of social interaction causes physiological stress that is clinically measurable. What people don't like is negative social interaction. The problem in that respect is that the game design does almost nothing to incentivize positive interaction or discourage negative interaction. The relative state of the solo and group queues doesn't reflect on deep truths about what awful people gamers are, it reflects game design that horrendously fails to encourage a species that loves and even needs positive social interaction to have those interactions. The design is basically actively causing problems here. If it were at all functional the tiny handful of genuinely anti- social would be complaining about how dead the solo queue was.

 

Given how bad the current design is with respect to social interaction, it might make sense to surrender to the way things are and go full solo. Just realize that that wouldn't be a design success so much as an aknowledgement of how badly the original design failed to do what it should have done.

 

Being social in a multiplayer game can be fun and should be fun. Designers have to do quite a lot to break things to get to the point where a majority of players are actively avoiding social aspects.

[XYouMadBroX]

Welp since coming back to the game a few weeks ago after quitting during S6 I have found 2 of my old friends I used to PvP with and have added about 5 or 6 more people to my friends list. Anyone complaining about premades and wanting a solo queue to play solo regs is just not trying to find anyone to group with. It doesn't help people that are new or trying to find actual people to PVP with that literally every guild in the game spams the same adverts: HEY join <generic guild> we do a little bit of everything! OPS PVP PVE. Lies. You do TC gf farms and one dude in your 600 character guilds pvps by himself sometimes. It literally took me a few days to find new people to PvP with. Like so many others have said before; if you notice anyone in a wz who stands out send them a PM. Don't be scared. The social aspect of the game is not blabbering on fleet chat about politics and arguing with Deadwinter.

[Davook]

This is old story. It's like 10 years old ?

 

In this case you have two options really:

 

1 . make your own premade

2. become better player , and premades won't bother you

 

This is old lie. It's like 10 years old? Become better player and premades won't bother you my as%