So I came back because of the 7.0 changes. I get what BioWare is doing.

[UmbralSpirit]

What about flashpoint drops, will gear drop the way it does now in 7.0 or did they make changes there too?

[MystyqeofXev]

I left WoW when it was (imo) ruined. SWTOR seems to be heading that way for me the closer 7.0 comes and we find more silliness being shoved at us. I don't think 7.0 will outright kill the game, but I won't be here if it indeed does turn into a crap-show.

 

Cataclysm? (Kidding, sort of)

 

WoW changed dramatically between WoD and Legion. Sure, you got a "Legendary" (which story wise were all just lying around in ponds being distributed by watery tarts), and you got a "Legendary", but they were taken away at the end.

 

Not only that, but the process to upgrade your Legendary was a grind, requiring a system not even in the game until two patches later.

 

THEN in BFA, instead of a Legendary, we all got a neck piece. The grind to upgrade this thing was not something you could do overnight. (Because by this point Activision was measuring WoW's success not by subscribers, but by "time-played" metrics). Alts suffered, (unlike WoD, very alt friendly)

 

**************************

 

This is the direction EA seems to be headed. Caps on what you can receive per week. I don't know who their target audience is for these changes, but it certainly is not me.

[CheesyEZ]

Cataclysm? (Kidding, sort of)

 

WoW changed dramatically between WoD and Legion. Sure, you got a "Legendary" (which story wise were all just lying around in ponds being distributed by watery tarts), and you got a "Legendary", but they were taken away at the end.

 

Not only that, but the process to upgrade your Legendary was a grind, requiring a system not even in the game until two patches later.

 

THEN in BFA, instead of a Legendary, we all got a neck piece. The grind to upgrade this thing was not something you could do overnight. (Because by this point Activision was measuring WoW's success not by subscribers, but by "time-played" metrics). Alts suffered, (unlike WoD, very alt friendly)

 

**************************

 

This is the direction EA seems to be headed. Caps on what you can receive per week. I don't know who their target audience is for these changes, but it certainly is not me.

 

you're talking about borrowed systems. worse, borrowed systems used to rehash the same abilities. it's designed to combat ability bloat and power creep by "resetting" a player's powers each xpack. it was extremely effective at that job. but it was "extreme" and as soon as BFA recycled it, players noticed what was going on. Repeating it in SL was mind-boggling, imo.

 

but the real reason I'm replying is that Legion was great, and losing the legos (along with their abilities) wasn't a bad thing. the bad thing is BFA just creating a new borrowed power system that gave the same lego powers back to players. if only they created new powers, that would have been something. also, there was A LOT more going wrong in BFA like the skill slots attached to pieces of gear that players couldn't use b/c they didn't grind enough <something>. honestly, I just cry when I see Legion lumped in with BFA and SL. I know what you mean when you say it started the borrowed systems thing, but it was actually good. (also had players complain about easy gear drops, but that had nothing to do with the lego system).

[MystyqeofXev]

Legion had its own set of issues, not the least of which was the arbitrary Legendary drops, AND the wide disparity of powers among Legendaries , AND the lack of questing for pieces.

 

Oh, and the snails pace of content dribbling. There was a lot to like about Legion, there was also a lot to not like. (Including the gawd awful plot / story that made NO sense)

 

(And you're right BFA was a fecal display of ineptitude and incompetence).

 

I'm guess LotS will be free. Let's hope it's worth more than we pay for it.

[ralphieceaser]

I'm trying to figure out what exactly is so unfair here. one. no one is forcing you to play alts.

The fact that if i dont play alts I am losing a ton of box rewards and credits, if someone spends 50 hours a week playing a main character and another spends 50 hours a week playing alts, why only the 2nd person was able to receive 20 conquest rewards while the first person only got 1.

That is what is unfair. So either all playstyles get 1 box or all playestyles get 20 boxes which would mean the person that plays a main character should somehow be able to get 20 boxes by playing the main, only then it would be fair.

 

yes gearing is part of the problem but these two issues, do NOT exist in a vaccum. they are part of the same design philosophy and that design philosophy is incredibly hostile to playing alts.

I agreed that gearing is an issue, and I would prefer other ways to solve it which is why I am disconnecting it from the current discussion and focusing on the 6.0 conquest system that is far less gear reliant and instead is more about credits and crafting mats that people who play a main character LOSE OUT unless they are forced to do conquest on alts.

That is my core problem, the fact that I am losing a ton of credits and crafting mats(that can sell decently) if I dont play alts. Which again might be pointless if all that is gone in 7.0 but that is why i keep talking about how conquest works now and why the current system isnt fair.

 

a box of gear? the same gear you can get from multitude of other, non conquest related sources? the same gear that oh wait.. I have to split BETWEEN MULTIPLE ALTS INSTEAD OF JUST GEARING ONE CHARACTER AND BEING DONE WITH IT. my my, what amazing advantage... towards NOTHING

Again comes to my original point, why should YOU who play 20 alts receive more boxes than me who plays a single character, you are literally acting as if your playstyle should receive more rewards than mine and that is the core of the problem here.

I have no problem with people enjoying alts but the moment you make alts get extra rewards, it becomes the moment people who main are losing out unless they are forced to play alts to get said rewards.

 

Everyone should get the same amount of boxes of conquest with their playstyle, both people who play a main and people who play alts should receive the same amount for time spend, if you want more rewards for alts than for people who play a main you are again saying your way of playing is special and should get more stuff, that is the point.

So the solution is either make conquest regrindable on the same character on the same week or limit conquest, both are options but bioware seems to be going for the latter.

[ralphieceaser]

Cataclysm? (Kidding, sort of)

 

WoW changed dramatically between WoD and Legion. Sure, you got a "Legendary" (which story wise were all just lying around in ponds being distributed by watery tarts), and you got a "Legendary", but they were taken away at the end.

 

Not only that, but the process to upgrade your Legendary was a grind, requiring a system not even in the game until two patches later.

 

THEN in BFA, instead of a Legendary, we all got a neck piece. The grind to upgrade this thing was not something you could do overnight. (Because by this point Activision was measuring WoW's success not by subscribers, but by "time-played" metrics). Alts suffered, (unlike WoD, very alt friendly)

 

**************************

 

This is the direction EA seems to be headed. Caps on what you can receive per week. I don't know who their target audience is for these changes, but it certainly is not me.

WoW listened to the player feedback who didnt like the powergrind, didnt like titanforging, didnt like power from casual content and behold we got shadowlands based on that feedback, shadowlands is what happens when blizzard listened to their community. (Borrowed power is another issue but exists to solve never ending power bloats)

 

Where if you want to progress your character's power there is nothing else to do other than raid or m+ log because all forms of casual, relaxing and solo content have been gutted power wise because raidloggers complained they were "forced" to do dirty casual content. And with blizzard and the tryhards believing casuals only care about mogs and mounts blizzard gave them a dumb anima grind for cosmetics which failed to keep casuals around because many people enjoy mmorpgs for the power progression.

 

I play mmorpgs because I like playing most of the types of contents they offer and progress my character's power, the moment the power only comes from very few and specific weekly sources it is the moment most of the content in the game dies and numbers go down because casuals cant get progress their character's power and even more hardcore people have literally nothing to do ingame unless their competent people on their level to do said high end content that has the power rewards.

 

A good reminder of what happens when devs blindly listen to their community.

[RudeDog]

 

The fact that if i dont play alts I am losing a ton of box rewards and credits, if someone spends 50 hours a week playing a main character and another spends 50 hours a week playing alts, why only the 2nd person was able to receive 20 conquest rewards while the first person only got 1.

That is what is unfair. So either all playstyles get 1 box or all playestyles get 20 boxes which would mean the person that plays a main character should somehow be able to get 20 boxes by playing the main, only then it would be fair.

 

 

I'm sure I'm an outlier, but I agree with this statement. I said in an earlier post that I felt it was odd that I could run 26 alts through Conquest obtaining 1.3M conquest points and get 26 rewards. But if I have one character I obtain 1.3M conquest points I only get 1 reward. I was suggesting we should get a reward every time I ding 50K points even if I stayed on the same character. Seems logical to me...

 

I like 6.0 gearing and would prefer to keep a similar system. My preference would be to have every activity drop gear currency and then you go buy your gear with the gear currency. I would be fine if Ops got gear more gear currency for their activities and solo players got less gear currency for their activities, but it gives everyone the ability to gear up to max gear. It would be faster for Ops players, but as long as I had a path to continually optimize to BIS I would be fine.

[MystyqeofXev]

WoW listened to the player feedback who didnt like the powergrind, didnt like titanforging, didnt like power from casual content and behold we got shadowlands based on that feedback, shadowlands is what happens when blizzard listened to their community. (Borrowed power is another issue but exists to solve never ending power bloats)

 

Where if you want to progress your character's power there is nothing else to do other than raid or m+ log because all forms of casual, relaxing and solo content have been gutted power wise because raidloggers complained they were "forced" to do dirty casual content. And with blizzard and the tryhards believing casuals only care about mogs and mounts blizzard gave them a dumb anima grind for cosmetics which failed to keep casuals around because many people enjoy mmorpgs for the power progression.

 

I play mmorpgs because I like playing most of the types of contents they offer and progress my character's power, the moment the power only comes from very few and specific weekly sources it is the moment most of the content in the game dies and numbers go down because casuals cant get progress their character's power and even more hardcore people have literally nothing to do ingame unless their competent people on their level to do said high end content that has the power rewards.

 

A good reminder of what happens when devs blindly listen to their community.

 

Actually WoW did NOT listen to their "community". They listened and catered to - a very specific subset.

[ralphieceaser]

Actually WoW did NOT listen to their "community". They listened and catered to - a very specific subset.

 

Well yeah, I mean listen to the dominant complaints of the community, there was a major outcry for example against titanforging and I was one of the very few people who supported titanforging staying, same for all the power rewards from casual content, many kept moaning about the azerite grind and having to do casual content for power. It was not a minority that screamed about it even though only a minority of raidloggers benefited

The thing is, with things like titanforging or azerite many hated simply because people around them hated those things, not because they personally had a reason to, the majority of the community screamed against many such "issues" because everyone around them did and blizzard listened, and the result was the disaster that is shadowlands.

 

It is pretty much the reason I dont take community complaints as seriously, and some devs probably feel the same way too, once the sentiment is spread, even if it has no logical reasoning for msot people, most people adopt that stance and hate what is popular to hate.

Edited November 16, 2021 by ralphieceaser

[MystyqeofXev]

Titanforging was removed because the Devs said "players complained". Maybe, but they sure as Stuttgart complained a lot more when it was removed.

 

I LOVED TF. The Devs DID NOT. Removal of TF, removal of set bonuses, all were done to make the Devs lives easier.

[joshuadyal]

And while solo players may complain about it, we are playing an m m o... The point of that category is to group!

It's arguable that SWTOR was ever really an MMO, in my opinion. Oh, sure... it tried, kind of halfheartedly, to add an MMO to the RPG that BioWare created.

 

But were you not hear years ago? For a LONG time (since 4.0 at least), BioWare has been successful with this game because they recognized that a majority of their customer base didn't even want an MMO. They just wanted a big ole KOTOR-like RPG. They didn't mind a bit of grouping here and there, as long as you didn't HAVE to do it, and you could get a great solo experience without ever interacting with another player at all.

 

So what BioWare is trying to do is bring back the people who are in favor of group content as well as add more people to enjoy group content.

 

It really is debatable that this will bring groupers to the game at this point. That seems fundamentally completely unlikely. Will it turn solos into groupers? Maybe a handful. Will it turn solos into former players? Again, probably some.

 

That the forums are so negative is more indicative of just the fact that they've catered to solo players for a while and that's who all is really left on the forums. If they are successful in bringing in more people, the tenor of the forms will shift along with those groups returning.

 

That was always the core of BioWare's fans, even from the years before they made SWTOR. BioWare is famous for its RPGs, not its MMOs. I think you're seriously misreading this; I think the forums are negative because the fanbase has always been solo-focused. Heck, even GTA Online data shows that most people prefer to play solo. The idea that people want to group is just not backed up by any data anywhere from any game. Those who do are a niche audience, not the mainstream. And BioWare was always more focused on the solo RPGers moreso than Rockstar ever was.

Edited November 16, 2021 by joshuadyal

[Jeweledleah]

The fact that if i dont play alts I am losing a ton of box rewards and credits, if someone spends 50 hours a week playing a main character and another spends 50 hours a week playing alts, why only the 2nd person was able to receive 20 conquest rewards while the first person only got 1.

That is what is unfair. So either all playstyles get 1 box or all playestyles get 20 boxes which would mean the person that plays a main character should somehow be able to get 20 boxes by playing the main, only then it would be fair.

 

 

I agreed that gearing is an issue, and I would prefer other ways to solve it which is why I am disconnecting it from the current discussion and focusing on the 6.0 conquest system that is far less gear reliant and instead is more about credits and crafting mats that people who play a main character LOSE OUT unless they are forced to do conquest on alts.

That is my core problem, the fact that I am losing a ton of credits and crafting mats(that can sell decently) if I dont play alts. Which again might be pointless if all that is gone in 7.0 but that is why i keep talking about how conquest works now and why the current system isnt fair.

 

 

Again comes to my original point, why should YOU who play 20 alts receive more boxes than me who plays a single character, you are literally acting as if your playstyle should receive more rewards than mine and that is the core of the problem here.

I have no problem with people enjoying alts but the moment you make alts get extra rewards, it becomes the moment people who main are losing out unless they are forced to play alts to get said rewards.

 

Everyone should get the same amount of boxes of conquest with their playstyle, both people who play a main and people who play alts should receive the same amount for time spend, if you want more rewards for alts than for people who play a main you are again saying your way of playing is special and should get more stuff, that is the point.

So the solution is either make conquest regrindable on the same character on the same week or limit conquest, both are options but bioware seems to be going for the latter.

 

are you seriously trying to tell me that I should be punished for having alts by making it harder for me to gear aforementioned alts? because that sure does sound like it. as i have ALREADY STATED. those 20 boxes? are split between TWENTY characters. I'm gearing 20 characters, not one, I get more gear because i literally NEED MORE GEAR. whatever excess gear you get - you just vendor or deconstruct. I don't get nearly as much excess gear despite "getting more boxes" because I have all these characters that need to WEAR IT.

 

are you suggesting that having to put a set of gear into the legacy vault and shift it between alts is a more fair way of doing it? SERIOUSLY? because if my alts are not getting gear to wear? THAT IS WHAT I END UP HAVING TO DO.

 

moreover, i have demonstrated that rewards you get from completing conquests other then gear that ALTS NEED TO WEAR is negligible and will be even MORE negligible in 7.0. (credits are getting removed, matrixes are getting removed, what else is left. decorations? really? THAT is the issue?)

 

lets see crafting mats other then matrixes you get right now is the equivalent of looting one, maybe 2 nodes out in a world, but honestly seems more like a single node at best from personal experience of actualy looting nodes. matrixes you can just buy off GTN if you need them with credits you get by focusing on your single main.

 

the irony here is that you are the one claiming that your playstyle should receive more rewards then mine. since with current weekly limits, according to calculations people made in 7.0 itemization thread, it can take YEARS to get multiple characters geared, while 5+ weeks roughly that it would take you is still not fantastic, but nowhere near YEARS. but off I go.

 

this is very likely going to be my last post anyways, cause my sub is about to expire and i don't plan on renewing it until they made the game alt friendly again.

Edited November 16, 2021 by Jeweledleah

[aeterno]

But are group content MMO people really going return and stick around to re-run the same content for the 5th time?

 

That type of player is clearly a more demanding customer than people that stuck around TOR for the drip-fed story due to the IP.

 

Going back to the progression raiding reward model doesn't change the underlying issue of TOR from the get-go: not enough of that type of content at a fast enough cadence.

 

Seeing how they're launching their "tilt to group endgame play" expansion without actual endgame group content, it doesn't exactly look like the underlying issue is in any way addressed.

 

Why would a group-focused end game MMO-er play a game with 1 new operation every 2 years, when there are games out there that churn them out in double digits per expansion cycle?

 

Those people quit en masse before the system changes.... those changes were the result of the exodus, not the other way around. I don't see how "hey we're now back exactly where we were when you quit all those years ago" makes a difference for them.

[Rion_Starkiller]

Return? Groups/guilds/raiders are a huge population of this *M M O*. Where were you guys in 4.0 and early 5.0? They literally catered this game to solo players and it almost killed the game. We have… what 3-4 servers now?

 

The problem with the forums is that it’s an echo chamber for solo casuals. This is why certain devs are in multiple discords.

 

FYI, you don’t have to be subscribed to be a solo casual. But you do need a sub to run operations.

Edited November 20, 2021 by Rion_Starkiller

[TrixxieTriss]

The issue of why we have so few servers isn’t that they drove only one group away to cater to another. It’s that they continue to drive players away from every aspect of the game. BioWare can’t decide who they want to cater for so they don’t cater to anyone anymore.

 

People are quick to forget that a lot of people play multiple parts of the game. So when BioWare make unpopular sweeping changes to most of the game, we lose a cross section of players from everywhere.

 

4.0 drove a bunch of raiders from the game. 5.0 drove a bunch of pvpers from the game. 6.0 drove more raiders and pvpers from the game. 7.0 is going to drive a bunch of solo players from the game.

 

BioWares issue has always been they drive players away and don’t attract near enough people to replace the ones that leave. Their policy is a revolving door and zero retention. They reinvent the wheel for the sake of it every expansion

 

And instead of building on success, they tear down what’s been working and replace it with something no one asks for or wants. All for the sake of change of some devs pet project to change X to become Y.

 

7.0 changes won’t bring nearly as many people back to the game as what we are going to lose. Once again BioWare have made sweeping changes that are going to drive players away. What they should be doing is planning to retain the current player base and build on that, not jettison a portion of the players and hope enough others start playing.

[aeterno]

Return? Groups/guilds/raiders are a huge population of this *M M O*. Where were you guys in 4.0 and early 5.0? They literally catered this game to solo players and it almost killed the game. We have… what 3-4 servers now?

 

The problem with the forums is that it’s an echo chamber for solo casuals. This is why certain devs are in multiple discords.

 

FYI, you don’t have to be subscribed to be a solo casual. But you do need a sub to run operations.

 

I think the fact you can't even find up to date class guides for half of specs tells you all there is to tell about how developed raiding scene in this game is.

 

SWTOR is the proverbial king of the casual hill and has been for ages.

 

I'm glad that you're happy that the same treadmill is being rolled out again but I don't think a lot of people will find the allure.

 

It's like the guy above said, this is the next chapter of this games devs schizophrenia. Tho I see the logic behind it personally. Change of core systems is being used as a substitute for actual content. With what feels like not much of a long term plan or vision.

[JattaGin]

FYI, you don’t have to be subscribed to be a solo casual. But you do need a sub to run operations.

 

Yes. And that's exactly what I'm gonna do now. After 10 years of constantly funding this game. And with that I mean not only the sub fees, but also lots of cartel coins (back when they had the packs which, I admit, I liked as a game inside the game). I have the money. But they don't want it anymore? Fine by me.

 

Will they find a replacement for the money they won't make off me anymore? That seems to be their calculation. I don't know their metrics. They seem sure that they have a good plan.

Edited November 20, 2021 by JattaGin

[LD_Little_Dragon]

FYI, you don’t have to be subscribed to be a solo casual. But you do need a sub to run operations.

 

Yes, that's true, which is why I let my sub run out, and will stay at level 75 cap.

 

Currently I do play endgame, I mostly solo, but also dabble in SM and some HM operations, the occassional PvP, and a lot of MM FP. That's my endgame. I do solostuff while waiting for queue's to pop. Everything I do gives me rewards that aren't in multiple silo's of separate gear tracks like 7.0 is shaping up to be.

 

The gameplay changes coming with 7.0 are all adding up to something that makes endgame very unattractive to me. It's not one thing in particular, but a whole lot of things adding up to more restrictions in how and what I play.

 

If endgame isn't fun for the non-hardcore players (I'm not exactly casual, but not a NiM/Ranked player) then there is no reason to sub, not even for the little amount of story. Levelling from 75 to 80? Not worth it if the toons aren't going to be doing any endgame stuff or even be able to get decent stats.

[Rion_Starkiller]

...

 

…

 

You’re going to unsubscribe and miss the story you waited 2 years for because you don’t like that you can’t obtain gear you don’t need for iRating 318 content. Got it.

 

Might be better to wait until after December 14th so you can play through it first?

Edited November 20, 2021 by Rion_Starkiller

[ZionHalcyon]

You’re going to unsubscribe and miss the story you waited 2 years for because you don’t like that you can’t obtain gear you don’t need for iRating 318 content. Got it.

 

Might be better to wait until after December 14th so you can play through it first?

 

If it were possible to like posts, I would like this one.

[TrixxieTriss]

You’re going to unsubscribe and miss the story you waited 2 years for because you don’t like that you can’t obtain gear you don’t need for iRating 318 content. Got it.

 

Might be better to wait until after December 14th so you can play through it first?

 

If you have a reoccurring sub you can cancel that and provide BioWare with some feed back at the same time so they understand why you aren’t happy. You can then pay month to month till you decide wether you like the expansion or not.

Edited November 20, 2021 by TrixxieTriss

[LD_Little_Dragon]

You’re going to unsubscribe and miss the story you waited 2 years for because you don’t like that you can’t obtain gear you don’t need for iRating 318 content. Got it.

 

Might be better to wait until after December 14th so you can play through it first?

 

Assume much? It's about a lot more then just the gear changes.

 

Also, no, it's not worth subbing just for the story. The original class stories are still the best part of the storyline, the latest story is alright, but not really engaging to me. It's not worth subbing even for one more month for just a story that I don't feel any particular attachment to.

 

Bioware might be banking that players will give them money just for story, but I won't when everything I saw on the PTS just made endgame look unappealing to me. I don't believe in paying for a product I won't like. The changes may end up being the best thing ever in the history of SWTOR and draw in a massive amount of new players, but that doesn't mean I have to like them. Tastes differ.

 

If upcoming updates and changes make the endgame more appealing to me I'll consider subbing again, but not now.

[Rion_Starkiller]

If you have a reoccurring sub you can cancel that and provide BioWare with some feed back at the same time so they understand why you aren’t happy. You can then pay month to month till you decide wether you like the expansion or not.

 

Do you think it does any good to provide quitting-feedback over unreleased content? I think it prob just tells them they need to hype the upcoming content better.

Edited November 20, 2021 by Rion_Starkiller

[Lyriel]

FYI, you don’t have to be subscribed to be a solo casual. But you do need a sub to run operations.

 

You do have to subscribe to post on these forums. All those solo casuals you dismiss posting here are, by definition, subscribers.

[Ulrah]

It seems most raiders are embarrassed to admit they like the 7.0 itemization changes (it amounts to admitting you need an unfair advantage), but good on ya OP... if others weren't so burdened by shame you would have more support here. You are an inspiration to players that want/need an unfair advantage everywhere!!!