So I came back because of the 7.0 changes. I get what BioWare is doing.

[TrixxieTriss]

Well, that's sad indeed but it's sort of water under the bridge. Like class stories that are the best and unique selling point of SWTOR they've changed so many things back and forth in gearing that they can only really change the gearing within that same format because anything else would cost too much.

 

They're taking away the set bonuses from armor altogether and are sticking them on legendary implants. It's yet another simplification that makes it better for them, but then trying to maintain 50 sets with different bonuses of which only a handful were actually good wasn't a good idea either.

 

This game was dubbed WoW in space from the start. I think that hasn't changed too much over the years. Though they did copy some stuff from GW2 here and there.

 

I’m hoping the new tag system ends up working like the GW2 one does. But I’m nervous it won’t be nearly as good. At least that’s one step in the positive direction. Now if we can just get them to stop making bad steps, those good changes could shine through more.

Edited November 11, 2021 by TrixxieTriss

[Cedia]

I sure hope all the new console players are raiders.

 

(Yes, I may be wearing a tinfoil hat, but this is what I believe their anniversary will be about.)

[SaerethDL]

you copied that from reddit lol

[Cedia]

you copied that from reddit lol

 

No, I posted it there as well.

[TrixxieTriss]

I sure hope all the new console players are raiders.

 

(Yes, I may be wearing a tinfoil hat, but this is what I believe their anniversary will be about.)

 

You’re not alone in that belief. I’ve expressed the same sentiment since the day they announced class pruning on the PTS. Everything since then has solidified my speculative opinion that some some sort of port is coming next year. Maybe an Xbox port cause that’s the easiest being Windows 10 based and because you can already plug a keyboard and mouse into it natively to play some PC based games. Alternatively it could be a Steam Deck port or both. But the chances of a PS port are slim to none.

Edited November 11, 2021 by TrixxieTriss

[CheesyEZ]

But I will give a piece of advice - you will always find that toxic element in ANY MMO when it comes to pick up groups. Its not just a SWTOR thing. And the best way to counter that is to find a Guild. Not all Guilds are good, and I have seen some toxic ones in my day (one of the worst was named after a bed and bath furnishing store), but if you just keep at it, you will find there are some really good guilds out there that are new player and/or solo player - friendly. A guild might be counter-intuitive to a solo player, but trust me, finding a good guild can make all the difference in terms of positive group play.

 

most guilds on SF are are new player friendly with a ton of super casual players happy to do story and vet mode content with you. and once you've mastered that (with them), they'll do MM and HM as well. but you generally have to show you can parse to do HM/MM content because...well...they do require a certain amount of command over your spec abilities.

 

edit: my experience in SWTOR is, sadly, huge swathes of players happy to run the "daily" SM Ops (in 20-30 mins), sometimes on multiple toons, do their conquest/GS objective, and collect their weekly reward. honestly, it's not even a game anymore. it's a bunch of people on literal hampster wheels doing the exact same thing. I genuinely do not understand what they get out of it? maybe feeding gear to their 50th alt so they can feed more to a 51st?

Edited November 11, 2021 by CheesyEZ

[Kraevac]

Players complaining about this new gear system must not have been around long. This is near exactly the type of gear system the game launched with.

 

"I'm a solo player, I should be able to out gear all solo content so that I'm future proofed against all future solo content."

 

"I'm a PvPer, I should have access to the greatest gear in the game so I can kill the opposition with rapid efficiency, even if they've never played PvP before and have the bare minimum gear to even enjoy the content."

 

"I run FPs and OPs, I should have the best gear in the game because I play the hardest content with the most requirements for gearing types. My content is never the same from one Op to the next, so I need the most versatility in my gear."

 

Bioware said it themselves, "...risk is rewarded. If a player chooses to complete content on a higher difficulty, they will be rewarded with better gear.”

 

Why is that a bad thing? Tell me how being rewarded for risk is a bad thing? Tell me why you should put in the least amount of effort to get the most amount of reward? I don't play OPs and have never done one and I've not even played all the FPs in this game and I've been playing since beta. I only sub when new story content is released. I'm a solo player. I have done PvP once in this game.

 

OPs players, congratulations on getting back the vertical progression system, finally you have a reason to play again.

 

PvPers, rejoice, your content is now based on individual skill, not how geared you are. (Unless of course you're a bad PvPer and needed gear to feel be good....in that case....um....get good at PvP)

 

Solo players....."Our philosophy for gearing and progression in 7.0 is to ensure that players have the gear they need to play the content they want..." You don't have to like it and you don't have to play and you have no right to complain since 90% of this game is centered around the content that you want to play.

Edited November 11, 2021 by Kraevac

[Tsillah]

Solo players....."Our philosophy for gearing and progression in 7.0 is to ensure that players have the gear they need to play the content they want..." You don't have to like it and you don't have to play and you have no right to complain since 90% of this game is centered around the content that you want to play.

I agree with the general sentiment of your post, but I was also mistaken about this last part. Apparently the gear that comes from conquest rewards is the gear that is meant for solo players. It's top rating at release with 7.0 is 328. What I didn't realize (and I was corrected on that) is that level sync also will change and because of that the 328 gear will be worse in below level 80 content (where most of the solo content takes place) than the current optimized 306 gear. I'm sure it'll be good enough to play with since optimized 306 gear is overkill for solo content, but I would consider this to be a mistake if it goes on the live servers like this. I mean progressing through gear levels that are worse than what we have now, doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

[Darcmoon]

Solo players....."Our philosophy for gearing and progression in 7.0 is to ensure that players have the gear they need to play the content they want..." You don't have to like it and you don't have to play and you have no right to complain since 90% of this game is centered around the content that you want to play.

 

 

Have to argue that point. They do have a right to complain. Just like every other person who plays does. Just because a person complains doesn’t mean they are right or wrong. But telling someone they have no right to complain means they can say the same about anything you might say is wrong.

Edited November 11, 2021 by Darcmoon

[MystyqeofXev]

Solo players....."Our philosophy for gearing and progression in 7.0 is to ensure that players have the gear they need to play the content they want..." You don't have to like it and you don't have to play and you have no right to complain since 90% of this game is centered around the content that you want to play.

 

Except that's false. You don't NEED BiS gear to clear NiM OPs. The gear is a REWARD. (and an incentive to buy and sell carries)

 

Then the question becomes, why is the reward for a scripted encounter so much more than spending hours (and $$) building up your crafting skill(s)?

 

Why does someone who spends X hours a week doing NiM progression receive rewards that dwarf the folks who spend 10X hours PvPing?

[UmbralSpirit]

I wonder if these changes have anything to do with the WoW-exodus. Most of these players are going to FFXIV because there they actually have meaningful group content. It can't have gone past the attention of EA/BW that SWTOR has had a sub-par influx from WoW players. I mean there are still some but I bet these changes also serve to entice more ex-WoW players to come here.

 

Ah yes, FFXIV's group content...and all the guilds who make a living carrying solo players through said group content.

[ralphieceaser]

I wonder if these changes have anything to do with the WoW-exodus. Most of these players are going to FFXIV because there they actually have meaningful group content. It can't have gone past the attention of EA/BW that SWTOR has had a sub-par influx from WoW players. I mean there are still some but I bet these changes also serve to entice more ex-WoW players to come here.

Both wow and ff14 have very frequent content patches compared to swtor and I doubt swtor will ever be given the budget to create new patches as fast as either of those games

[phalczen]

1. Bioware wanted to implement advanced class swap, because its probably been asked about since launch. They claim this system will allow for new adv ... sorry, combat styles ... in the future. I have no reason to doubt that claim. However, its pretty clear that they needed to consolidate and organize the abilities so that each adv ... sorry, Combat Style ... would have the same number of ability slots. I guess I am for ability pruning in theory, but of the two classes I tested on PTS, Guardian and Sage, which are my most favorite classes to play, Guardian was destroyed and Sage was largely the same against Onderon mobs, so in my view execution is about 50% ... great for a major league batter, but pretty bad for game design.

 

2. Bioware decided the plethora of gear that was 6.x was not OK. I mean they claim it results in inventory overload but that is a problem players can easily solve using deconstruction and vendors. It's made up. Bioware has decided that casual players should not get end game BiS slot gear. For whatever reason, they decided to listen to someone or someones who complained that they didn't like the fact that Joe Solo or Jen Story Mode Hero could be in 306 gear with full set bonus and tactical array. Maybe it was Keith Kanneg's master mode operations group in his personal guild.* It doesn't matter, even though its clear they drive a lot of his decisions. They decided after saying for 3-4 years that we had too many currencies and they needed to simplify that they would more than quadruple the number of currencies you will have to keep track of. Bioware decided to literally bring back pvp-unique** and operations-unique and even used the original 1.0 names for some of it, which I'm sure they will claim is meant to honor the tenth anniversary or some such nonsense.

*

We know that was the justification for the introduction of new tiers of augments THREE times in the past two expansions, which I should have known was a harbinger for his views on the gearing system

 

**

I guess the pvp-exclusive gear is certainly an issue worthy of debate. I don't get the sense that people want expertise back. On paper, the idea that pvp'ers do not need to really do any pve content to gain their gear sounds like something they would like. Also, on paper, the item rating cap is appealing to me because it means I don't have to be afraid to jump back in to pvp and I can just wear my pve gear and swap out tacticals and legendary items as required, and of course my Loadout. On paper, that all sounds very wonderful and straightforward. But, none of that required the other changes to gear acquisition that exponentially increased complexity and simultaneously engineered the casual solo player out of the race.

 

 

3. But hey, we're getting one flashpoint with its 3 modes, a daily area, and a new operation without a master mode and without 16 players++. I mean there are countless threads from nightmare raiders whose complaint is about the lack of group content, not about wanting Tionese/Columi/Rakata gear system back, but hey ... Columirite? Rite?

 

++

Look, our guild hasn't been able to field a 16-person group except for a couple of times this calendar year. We're lucky if we can 12- or 13-person a 16-person story mode. So, the lack of a 16-player version of R4 anomaly is no biggie for me ... most of us have only been on Dxun a handful of times. But that's not the point. The point is that the team has to sacrifice the time investment of balancing 16-player because they don't have the resources to do it. Despite saving on that time, we still only got one flashpoint and one op for 7.0 launch. Think about that a bit, and then come back and tell me how wonderfully plethoric 7.0 is for group content.

 

 

I mean, if that's your definition of "great group content worthy of returning to the game," more power to you. You don't seem to be excited about the story, or about the adv ... sorry, Combat Style system ... because you didn't mention how you've been just dying to play your Trooper as a sniper or whatever. So, good luck to you.

Edited November 12, 2021 by phalczen

[ralphieceaser]

Then the question becomes, why is the reward for a scripted encounter so much more than spending hours (and $$) building up your crafting skill(s)?

 

Why does someone who spends X hours a week doing NiM progression receive rewards that dwarf the folks who spend 10X hours PvPing?

Answer is sadly very simple, because many devs(not just in swtor) do not seem to be great at thinking outside the box and have outdated notions like "Raiders are special and should get the best stuff in an mmorpg" even when data shows otherwise, especially with how genres and communities evolve over the years.

 

It is a stubborn clinging to outdated design philosophies that often leads to devs going against even the most obvious and logical advice. Even the WoW director after years had to finally admit the lessons he was taught as a developer were WRONG and no longer valid in this day and age.

Edited November 12, 2021 by ralphieceaser

[UmbralSpirit]

It is a stubborn clinging to outdated design philosophies that often leads to devs going against even the most obvious and logical advice. Even the WoW director after years had to finally admit the lessons he was taught as a developer were WRONG and no longer valid in this day and age.

 

I don't think crafting that pales in comparsion to looted gear or gear obtained through "token" vendors was ever even an "indated" philosophy outside of game developer cycles. No matter what MMO you look at the pointlessness of the crafting systems is always a major complain everywhere.

But then again, you can't expect much from people who desperately try to convince themselves that "Games as a service" is "the future of gaming".

Edited November 12, 2021 by UmbralSpirit

[MystyqeofXev]

I don't think crafting that pales in comparsion to looted gear or gear obtained through "token" vendors was ever even an "indated" philosophy outside of game developer cycles. No matter what MMO you look at the pointlessness of the crafting systems is always a major complain everywhere.

 

I can think of one. (Now defunct) Dark Age of Camelot. Their crafting had (IIRC) a lot of weight. And wait. The higher quality {WIDGET} you made? The longer you stood there. You could not log off (IIRC), and you couldn't do other things. I'm not talking five minutes, I'm talking an hour to craft * A * {WIDGET}.

 

Guilds would funnel massive amounts of materials to their crafters.

 

Guess what happened?

 

Yep, a certain NICHE group (not the crafters) whined, they (the devs) looked at WoW, and (again IIRC), started putting better {WIDGETS} in dungeons, and raids. Darkness Falls was the defacto place to level and obtain a set of gear. (I want to say from vendors in DF)

[jedimasterjac]

Ah yes, FFXIV's group content...and all the guilds who make a living carrying solo players through said group content.

 

Not to mention all of FFXIV's dungeons (post ARR) are literally just straight hallways. You run down a hall, tank pulls everything, reach an invisible barrier, kill, then repeat.

 

Aside from raids FFXIV definitely doesn't have meaningful group content.

[phalczen]

I don't think crafting that pales in comparsion to looted gear or gear obtained through "token" vendors was ever even an "indated" philosophy outside of game developer cycles. No matter what MMO you look at the pointlessness of the crafting systems is always a major complain everywhere.

But then again, you can't expect much from people who desperately try to convince themselves that "Games as a service" is "the future of gaming".

 

Nothing compared to pre-CU SWG crafting and pre-sunset SWG crafting after it had been resuscitated. In my opinion, it was the perfect combination: players sought out rare loot drop components from difficult spawns, and took them to SWG's version of an Armormech or Armstech to make legendary weapons. Alternatively the schematic dropped from a boss and you had to trade it an alt or someone you trusted. Imagine the level of trust you would have in someone you may only know over the internet to trade them your hard-earned materials for a Mandalorian armor piece, while you and your group escorted them through the Death Watch Bunker to craft your armor or your jetpack. You needed the skill of the crafter, combined with careful collecting of high quality resources over the years, and the skill of the pve player to get the loot drops that were subcomponents. It was an elegant inter-dependency that remains unchallenged even ten years after its sunset. Not to mention being paired with slicing to make the item even more powerful. It was nerfed in the CU and NGE to be sure, but by the end much of what was amazing about the system was brought back. Even the nerfed final version, right before the game's sunset, surpassed anything else I've ever played (crafting wise). You can say what you want about SWG's flaws, and I have, but the crafting and resource gathering system was second-to-none.

[ralphieceaser]

Yep, a certain NICHE group (not the crafters) whined, they (the devs) looked at WoW, and (again IIRC), started putting better {WIDGETS} in dungeons, and raids. Darkness Falls was the defacto place to level and obtain a set of gear. (I want to say from vendors in DF)

Exactly, many devs still obsess over the outdated idea that raids should be the source of best gear even though even based on data, a lot more people enjoy crafting and others forms of content, yet repeatedly choose to service a minority aka high end raiders against the majority of their playerbase.

 

That makes no sense and it is a clear sign they are guided by outdated philosophies that are no longer valid in 2021.

[Jeweledleah]

its not just gearing though, at least not for me. its the channeling of players into specific content on specific weeks, its resetting of weekly quests which affects both group players and solo players (since stuff like do this many warzones/starfighter matches/flashpoints is group content)

 

7.0 changes are not merely "we want you to group more" changes. they are anti casual changes and it will absolutely come back to bite them, becasue they will NOT retain players this way, they will push them away instead. solo, OR group players.

 

play how you like... except if you get a piece of gear from a flashpoint you did for fun, you now have to grind flashpoints or you never get to upgrade it. play how you like except weekly seasons that were already limited as far as what you can do to maximize your score - are going to be even MORE limited, what with resetting the weeklies and all. play how you like, except conquests require twice as many points to get personal rewards.

 

they are doing the same thing they tried every. single. expansion. and every single expansion players hated it and started leaving and they had to scramble and rebalance. you'd think they would learn by now....

[UmbralSpirit]

Nothing compared to pre-CU SWG crafting and pre-sunset SWG crafting after it had been resuscitated. In my opinion, it was the perfect combination: players sought out rare loot drop components from difficult spawns, and took them to SWG's version of an Armormech or Armstech to make legendary weapons. Alternatively the schematic dropped from a boss and you had to trade it an alt or someone you trusted. Imagine the level of trust you would have in someone you may only know over the internet to trade them your hard-earned materials for a Mandalorian armor piece, while you and your group escorted them through the Death Watch Bunker to craft your armor or your jetpack. You needed the skill of the crafter, combined with careful collecting of high quality resources over the years, and the skill of the pve player to get the loot drops that were subcomponents. It was an elegant inter-dependency that remains unchallenged even ten years after its sunset. Not to mention being paired with slicing to make the item even more powerful. It was nerfed in the CU and NGE to be sure, but by the end much of what was amazing about the system was brought back. Even the nerfed final version, right before the game's sunset, surpassed anything else I've ever played (crafting wise). You can say what you want about SWG's flaws, and I have, but the crafting and resource gathering system was second-to-none.

 

I wonder how long until Bioware ads a trading card game to SWTOR...

[TheVoyant]

You’re not alone in that belief. I’ve expressed the same sentiment since the day they announced class pruning on the PTS. Everything since then has solidified my speculative opinion that some some sort of port is coming next year. Maybe an Xbox port cause that’s the easiest being Windows 10 based and because you can already plug a keyboard and mouse into it natively to play some PC based games. Alternatively it could be a Steam Deck port or both. But the chances of a PS port are slim to none.

 

Same. It just makes too much sense with their scorched earth strategy.

 

Step 1: Burn Everything

Step 2: Drive Players Away

Step 3: Create New Source of Players to Exploit

Step 4: Repeat.

 

Drove a bunch of people away. Add to Steam.

Next, Drive a Bunch of People away.... Up next Consoles/Game Pass.

 

Milks the most revenue out of the game in a manner befitting EA's notorious cannibalistic policies right on par with the track record of disconnect between BW and their base. (see: DA2, ME, Anthem Next, etc. basically the constant misdirection and then sheer no communication when expectations aren't met.)

 

Also explains why retention doesn't appear to be a concern. As new players are more likely to purchase those outfits. Because the rest of us already have em.

 

Just how the optics appear from where I'm sitting.

Edited November 13, 2021 by TheVoyant

[WaywardOne]

Didn’t the devs say the 10th anniversary is going to be a huge year of updates for SWTOR? I think 7.0 is going to be bit light, but serve as the foundation for their changes over the course of the year.

 

Somebody's been saying that every other year for the last several. 2021 was supposed to be a big year for events and updates if you listened to certain devs a year ago. Believe it when you see it.

[UmbralSpirit]

Same. It just makes too much sense with their scorched earth strategy.

 

Step 1: Burn Everything

Step 2: Drive Players Away

Step 3: Create New Source of Players to Exploit

Step 4: Repeat.

 

Drove a bunch of people away. Add to Steam.

Next, Drive a Bunch of People away.... Up next Consoles/Game Pass.

 

Milks the most revenue out of the game in a manner befitting EA's notorious cannibalistic policies right on par with the track record of disconnect between BW and their base. (see: DA2, ME, Anthem Next, etc. basically the constant misdirection and then sheer no communication when expectations aren't met.)

 

Also explains why retention doesn't appear to be a concern. As new players are more likely to purchase those outfits. Because the rest of us already have em.

 

Just how the optics appear from where I'm sitting.

 

The irony is that EA/Bioware is hilariously bad at exploiting players, most "F2P" MMO's will fill their cash shop with an endless supply of desirable items while EA/Bioware mostly fills it with hideous looking outfits/weapons no one in their right mind would pay for.

The Cartell Market Suggestion sub forum provides them with a never ending list of items people would pay for but instead of doing any of that they go with....another bathrobe.

 

I'm convinced they're sabotaging themselves on purpose at this point.

[MystyqeofXev]

It is also quite possible EA is using the SWTOR division as a tax write-off. (The way the NBA does with the WNBA)