PvP Suggestion: Revising Electro Net

[ClayFa]

Me: Here are all these reasons trinity comps are important in deciding balance in this game

JediMasterAlex: Group ranked is dead I'm right you're stupid haha

 

Me: Ok, well group ranked isn't actually dead, here are some streams from just the past few days that show matches going on. Anyway, back to the point, trinity comps are important in regards to balance.

JediMasterAlex: Haha nope group ranked dead I'm right ur all wrong because I said so

 

Me: Ok, like I said before, that's not the point, please note that trinity comps are important. What are you qualifications to be making these claims by the way? I'm a group ranked player from the top North American team, and nim raider with alot of experience with the endgame pvp/pve content in this game. What are your qualifications?

JediMasterAlex: Omg you asked me to provide proof that I actually know what I'm talking about rather than just spewing nonsense on the forums, YOU'RE EDGY!!!!!

 

Please stop trying to talk to me, I prefer people who I can have logical debates with.

 

Lol, can you please stop grilling loners on the forums. But since I am here, group ranked has always required an individual to have one thing. Friends. But nowadays, these solo ranked players do not seem to have that lol. These people literally sit on fleet 24/7 flexing their titles and maybe queue for a reg once a week. So idk maybe we're just ignoring the huge fact that no one has friends anymore on this game.

Edited June 7, 2019 by ClayFa

[DavidAtkinson]

If mercs get a Bastion debuff on Electro Net I would agree that it should be 90 seconds timer, in line with their cd of the ability. That is a good point which slipped my mind. My main concern was to stop someone from being locked out from doing anything because players are throwing nets on them one after another.

 

I agree with your points and yes mercs/nets are a problem and this problem is mostly in solo ranked... Dude gets sunned /netted, he breaks, and gets neted again = rip. The player had no chance to do anything '' stop que noob, garbage, *** yourself etc. You know what I mean. Oh not to mention the never ending self heals and dcds that are totally broken and were never properly tested before 5.0 launch.

 

It's pointless to argue with some people here. They were defending mercs post 5.0 launch when they were massively broken and running around with 150k hp in a bugged DvL Armor, what makes you think they are smarter after 3 years ? Oh and they invested a ton of time gearing their FOTM class to see them get crippled now by some adjustments to their dcds and stupid net.

 

You think for the devs it's worth it to bother with some meaningless class balance that bothers 20 people/ server that que solo ranked ? I highly doubt it....

 

Take care

 

PS: I hope for 6.0 they get mass electronet just to prolong this nonsense even further..

Edited June 7, 2019 by DavidAtkinson

[JediMasterAlex]

Lol, can you please stop grilling loners on the forums. But since I am here, group ranked has always required an individual to have one thing. Friends. But nowadays, these solo ranked players do not seem to have that lol. These people literally sit on fleet 24/7 flexing their titles and maybe queue for a reg once a week. So idk maybe we're just ignoring the huge fact that no one has friends anymore on this game.

 

It's painfully ironic when group ranked players that can't even play their game mode anymore because it's dead accuse solo ranked players that queue all the time of not playing the game

 

Thanks for the good laugh though!

 

(ps, I don't sit on the fleet, or queue regs, so the use of "literally" doesn't work here)

[ClayFa]

It's painfully ironic when group ranked players that can't even play their game mode anymore because it's dead accuse solo ranked players that queue all the time of not playing the game

 

Thanks for the good laugh though!

 

(ps, I don't sit on the fleet, or queue regs, so the use of "literally" doesn't work here)

 

Did I @ you? No lol

[Rion_Starkiller]

🍿

more pls. I live for this 🧂

Edited June 7, 2019 by Rion_Starkiller

[SlimeyDoom]

It's painfully ironic when group ranked players that can't even play their game mode anymore because it's dead accuse solo ranked players that queue all the time of not playing the game

 

Thanks for the good laugh though!

 

(ps, I don't sit on the fleet, or queue regs, so the use of "literally" doesn't work here)

 

I was just told on discord who this forum poster is in game, and I’m in tears. It suffices to say, don’t take anything they have to say seriously. They’re a really bad solo ranked meme and I can’t believe I wasted my time trying to teach them

[JediMasterAlex]

🍿

more pls. I live for this 🧂

 

I live to serve

 

I was just told on discord who this forum poster is in game, and I’m in tears. It suffices to say, don’t take anything they have to say seriously. They’re a really bad solo ranked meme and I can’t believe I wasted my time trying to teach them

 

Imagine getting so upset at a forum poster you have to talk about them in secret, angry discord chats. Then you get so irrationally upset that you feel the need to call that person a "meme" (which itself is a hilarious insult to me). Endlessly entertaining. Please keep it up!

Edited June 7, 2019 by JediMasterAlex

[LD_Little_Dragon]

If mercs get a Bastion debuff on Electro Net I would agree that it should be 90 seconds timer, in line with their cd of the ability. That is a good point which slipped my mind. My main concern was to stop someone from being locked out from doing anything because players are throwing nets on them one after another.

 

This, so much. One net is annoying, 2 is bad, and 3 is just getting ridiculous.

 

A Bastion debuff or having net affect resolve would be minor change, but a reasonable one.

 

I suspect most of the people arguing against any change to e-net are either merc players, or have never had the pleasure of being the focus target of 2 or more merc/mando's.

[SlimeyDoom]

I'm reading some contradictions ("Electro Net isn't a problem") and ad hominems ("nerfs are lazy", "you're biased/salty") but no compelling counterarguments or refutations.

 

It's too easy to lock down a player with successive nets—no particular skill, coordination or planning is called for—and there is no real counterplay. You can have solid positioning and use your breaker and defensive cooldowns intelligently to survive one net, maybe two, but you're quickly going to run out of resources.

 

Class stacking does cause problems and there are other examples of abilities that are difficult to defend against (Predation comes to mind) but that doesn't mean it's wrongheaded to try to address the worst of these problems.

 

Firstly, looking at the first few posts before JediMasterAlex derailed the thread with his nonsense will provide you with the counter arguments that you desire. Your failure to read the first few pages does not mean they do not exist.

 

Secondly, if you are being netted three times in a row, and are being focused by three people... I’m sorry, but you shouldn’t be able to survive that without a guard or a dedicated healer. The solution to this problem is not to nerf the three players so they can’t focus fire. The solution is for the player being focused to position and play defensively and intelligently. Zurules and I are both accomplished ranked players. He mains shadow, I main sorcerer. Our classes get crippled when we are netted, but that doesn’t mean we come to the forums demanding that things are nerfed. We realize that we should not be able to survive sustained focus fire, and that solo ranked matchmaking is the real issue as it promotes class stacking. We realize that being chain netted is a symptom of a bigger matchmaking problem, and don’t reflexively demand nerfs be handed out.

 

As for predation being difficult to defend against, what are you trying to say? Melee classes have access to a great deal of root breaks and gap closers without predation, it isn’t particularly difficult to defend against. If you’re against multiple predations, the issue is you’re playing against multiple marauders, which are a top tier class right now. No one loads into a match against three marauders and goes “Oh no! So many predations!”. They go, “I hope they’re not playing fury or I’ll never get away from them”

[JediMasterAlex]

Zurules and I are both accomplished ranked players.

 

I love how that's the basis of your argument. You are both formerly accomplished ranked players at best. And for you (because I don't know who you are in-game) I assume it's only formerly accomplished group ranked player. Those are hardly great credentials. They don't give you any kind of expert status like you seem to think they do. Your opinion on this matter is no more relevant or informed than many of the people posting in this thread. Just wanted to make that clear for people.

Edited June 7, 2019 by JediMasterAlex

[SlimeyDoom]

I love how that's the basis of your argument. You are both formerly accomplished ranked players at best. And for you I assume it's only formerly accomplished group ranked player. Those are hardly great credentials. They don't give you any kind of expert status like you seem to think they do. Your opinion on this matter is no more relevant or informed than many of the people posting in this thread. Just wanted to make that clear for people.

 

[bUrself_]

im not sure there's much point putting my opinion this late into a thread that has derailed kinda hard but here goes

 

my gut reaction is that net largely feels oppressive, in some contexts anyway, because it's coming from a ranged dps with rather stupid defensive mechanics and that nerfing net while some more pressing issues about the class exist would most definitely not be best practice

 

at the same time, a phenomenon that surely exists in virtually any game where class balance or some equivalent thereof is a thing is the survival of broken or badly designed mechanics which hobble along because they belong to bad or middling classes, allowing them to fly under the radar. some aspects of net or multiple nets could fall under this umbrella, or at least they could have before 5.0. so while I personally wouldn't adjust net at this time I don't think the fact it went mostly uncomplained about previously is *necessarily* a knock down argument

 

re: the trinity/4s epeen war I do think the deadness of group ranked is worth noting, especially when you take into account the age and state of this game (this is relevant because it strongly suggests the deadness problem is here to stay). however, I think the point about using trinity to balance is good, particularly because the trinity is hardly only relevant to group ranked - the SR queue is trying to create it when it can, and it matters in regs too. in addition to that, balancing for trinity and balancing for non trinity are not always inherently at odds. in my opinion, some of the best utilities are ones that are potentially powerful, but shift heavily in their usefulness based on whether or not you're getting trinity games.

 

blood ward is a good example, I think. I always ran it when I was active in the game in SR but if I (bear with the thought experiment) knew I would be getting trinity SR games I would likely drop it. I'd most likely not run it in pressure 4s either. The stun immunity is no doubt disproportionately useful for hardswap 4s, so perhaps that "meta" is an exception, but whether or not that boost is useful enough to make it "worth it" is something I'm not qualified to say. But that possible wrinkle is beside my point. As it stands we have far too few clever utilities like this, and we'll probably have too few tacticals of the same.

 

Anyway, tl;dr if it were up to me I'd adjust mercs to have more methods of being able to maintain dps/hps output while being focused and fewer ridiculous passive healing DCDs over nerfing net. But I think it's worth noting that sometimes dumb mechanics squeak by proper scrutiny, and that something like a net hinder debuff lasting a minute improving regs/SR while having almost zero impact on group ranked is not an inherently ridiculous possibility. I still think I probably wouldn't do it though

[JediMasterAlex]

so while I personally wouldn't adjust net at this time

 

A good post as always, but I have a question. Why exactly wouldn't you adjust net? Is it just because you think there are other things about mercs worth changing first? I think most would agree that merc dcds are really a more pressing issue, but I fail to see why the small nerfs to net suggested in this thread would be a bad thing. It would primarily just assist in nerfing stacked mercs, and that's it. It's not like we only get to ask for one nerf; Bioware could easily tackle both issues at once, it's just that this thread happens to be about potential net nerfs.

[bUrself_]

A good post as always, but I have a question. Why exactly wouldn't you adjust net? Is it just because you think there are other things about mercs worth changing first? I think most would agree that merc dcds are really a more pressing issue, but I fail to see why the small nerfs to net suggested in this thread would be a bad thing. It would primarily just assist in nerfing stacked mercs, and that's it. It's not like we only get to ask for one nerf; Bioware could easily tackle both issues at once, it's just that this thread happens to be about potential net nerfs.

in general for these boards I think best practice is to focus our attention on the most pressing issues, modulated by their feasibility (getting a less **** engine is pressing but never going to happen, for example) and while multiple nets are obnoxious I think they generally can be played around if you plan accordingly. I'm sensitive in both directions here, as playing around it may involve doing annoying things like sitting in stealth for a while before you do anything, or immediately moving to LOS when you do, and the like and one might argue you shouldn't have to do those things. I think I probably just disagree with that.

 

if my previous post was coherent it should be clear that I am somewhat ambivalent on this topic but in general I side with the argument multiple nets might not be inherently broken, and that we should adjust more core issues and reevaluate. if mercs are meant to be a bursty glass cannon nerfing multiple nets might actually be overdoing it

Edited June 7, 2019 by bUrself_

[JediMasterAlex]

in general for these boards I think best practice is to focus our attention on the most pressing issues, modulated by their feasibility (getting a less **** engine is pressing but never going to happen, for example) and while multiple nets are obnoxious I think they generally can be played around if you plan accordingly. I'm sensitive in both directions here, as playing around it may involve doing annoying things like sitting in stealth for a while before you do anything, or immediately moving to LOS when you do, and the like and one might argue you shouldn't have to do those things. I think I probably just disagree with that.

 

if my previous post was coherent it should be clear that I am somewhat ambivalent on this topic but in general I side with the argument multiple nets might not be inherently broken, and that we should adjust more core issues and reevaluate. if mercs are meant to be a bursty glass cannon nerfing multiple nets might actually be overdoing it

 

I agree with you about multiple nets just being annoying, as opposed to game-breaking. I can usually work around multiple nets, but many cannot. And I guess I can see your other point. If they end up nerfing merc dcds (as they should) and their nets, they are in danger of being underpowered. But honestly, I think these net nerfs are so minor and tailored to solve one problem, multiple nets, that I think they'd be pretty safe doing both things.

 

Generally, I think Bioware is wrong to balance so infrequently. Making small tweaks to things is a far superior way to balance than just doing huge all around balance passes once every 2 years. I'm not sure why some are so insistent that things are fine all the time. Most games are making far more frequent balance changes.

Edited June 7, 2019 by JediMasterAlex

[bUrself_]

the infrequency of changes is arguably the most egregious thing about BWA's pvp development

 

I get they're not great players themselves, they're understaffed, and inundated in terrible advice from their player base so I expect mistakes and over/under turned knobs. but they so rarely turn the knobs at all

[foxmob]

 

- Don't nerf Electro Net. Mercs are not that powerful. At the most just make wether or not they stop charge, roll or bubble, depend on white bar. But increase the damage as a compensation.

 

no. hard no. they should always stop roll. or...if you want to play hottie's game, 30s roll cd that can be talented to 20s. eat that ****.

[RACATW]

I don't think gore stops roll though, at least far as I've seen?

[SlimeyDoom]

I agree with you about multiple nets just being annoying, as opposed to game-breaking. I can usually work around multiple nets, but many cannot.

 

So you are admitting that this is a l2p issue. If people positioned better/los, roll, shroud, etc, they can work around being netted multiple times in solo ranked. What you are saying is because some people don't know how counter this, we should nerf it. You said it yourself, there are ways to work around this.

 

The issue is that solo ranked takes the average of all players of all skill level because that's how elo works now. So with players of all skill level being meshed together, if you can't carry someone who doesn't know how to work around a certain comp, you should nerf the class?? This would obviously not be a good metric to use for class balance.

[JediMasterAlex]

So you are admitting that this is a l2p issue. If people positioned better/los, roll, shroud, etc, they can work around being netted multiple times in solo ranked. What you are saying is because some people don't know how counter this, we should nerf it. You said it yourself, there are ways to work around this.

 

Certainly, there are ways to work around almost everything, that doesn't mean it shouldn't be nerfed. That's not how logic works. Is it your opinion that this game is perfectly balanced and should never have any changes again? Multiple nets is very difficult to deal with, even for good players. Working around multiple nets is disproportionately harder than applying multiple nets. Limiting the effectiveness of multiple nets would undeniably be a good thing to limit how good multiple mercs are together. Are there other things to nerf about mercs that might achieve that affect better? Maybe, but again, that's not a reason not to nerf it.

[SlimeyDoom]

Certainly, there are ways to work around almost everything, that doesn't mean it shouldn't be nerfed. That's not how logic works. Is it your opinion that this game is perfectly balanced and should never have any changes again? Multiple nets is very difficult to deal with, even for good players. Working around multiple nets is disproportionately harder than applying multiple nets. Limiting the effectiveness of multiple nets would undeniably be a good thing to limit how good multiple mercs are together. Are there other things to nerf about mercs that might achieve that affect better? Maybe, but again, that's not a reason not to nerf it.

 

Anyone who is being focus fired by multiple players of any class should die. No dps class should be able to just survive that sort of thing without outside assistance. That’s not an excuse to nerf an ability, that’s just lazy “oh I don’t like this lets nerf it”. A much bigger issue is the fact that solo ranked match making loves stacking the same class on a team.

[Seterade]

I don't think gore stops roll though, at least far as I've seen?

 

hinder is a controling debuff. "roll" on operative requires you to not be controlled. same with sniper roll. sniper roll will purge movement impair, but gore and net dont debuff your movement, they "hinder" you. essentualy "stun" you while letting you keep most abilitys at your use. it doesnt "root" or "slow" you. so yes, hindering gore will stop sniper/op roll.

 

the "slow" effect of enet can actually be cleansed. ironicaly not by a healer, but by utlitys that purge movement impair, but dont work off an original movement ability. (ex: purge force speed, no go. purge countermeasure, yes)

Edited June 7, 2019 by Seterade

[RACATW]

hinder is a controling debuff. "roll" on operative requires you to not be controlled. same with sniper roll. sniper roll will purge movement impair, but gore and net dont debuff your movement, they "hinder" you. essentualy "stun" you while letting you keep most abilitys at your use. it doesnt "root" or "slow" you. so yes, hindering gore will stop sniper/op roll.

 

the "slow" effect of enet can actually be cleansed. ironicaly not by a healer, but by utlitys that purge movement impair, but dont work off an original movement ability. (ex: purge force speed, no go. purge countermeasure, yes)

 

 

I was talking about mid roll (similar to how a commando can net an op mid roll)

 

My assumption was thats what foxmob was referring to (always stopping roll). But I've only seen retaliation hit someone mid roll from what I recall.

Edited June 7, 2019 by RACATW

[SlimeyDoom]

I was talking about mid roll (similar to how a commando can net an op mid roll)

 

My assumption was thats what foxmob was referring to (always stopping roll)

 

Commando net is bugged so that it goes through any resist chance to net you no matter what. Nothing else can hinder a concealment operative mid roll

[JediMasterAlex]

Anyone who is being focus fired by multiple players of any class should die. No dps class should be able to just survive that sort of thing without outside assistance. That’s not an excuse to nerf an ability, that’s just lazy “oh I don’t like this lets nerf it”.

 

Let's say there's 3 mercs on a team and they're all focusing you. If net is nerfed as suggested, only one of them will be able to net you. So let's say you break that net, and use whatever dcd is appropriate for your class. Even without another net, the other mercs can still pursue and focus you, and you will still die. You'll die as fast as if those other 2 mercs were any other class. It's not as if mercs can't do dps without net.

 

Having multiple nets put on you under focus is far and away the most difficult situation to deal with. There are no other abilities from any other class (yes, there's gore, but it's much shorter in length and it's only available to an unpopular spec) that require you to be on the ball like net does. For one, that's fine, but forcing people to deal with multiple nets in a row is unlike anything else you have to deal with, and the game would be better off if it wasn't possible.

 

A much bigger issue is the fact that solo ranked match making loves stacking the same class on a team.

 

Yes, that probably is a bigger issue. It's one that I've talked about several times in other threads. But that's not what this thread is about.