Why is Bioware so silent on major gear issues from 5.10?

[NuSeC]

These are good questions, so let me try to address them.

 

 

Thank you all for your continued feedback. Bigger itemization changes will come and we will definitely talk through them with you when they get here (not soon™). Thanks all.

 

-eric

 

(not soon™)

 

In other words.... You are all stuck with a ridicules gearing change - sole purpose is to intensify an already ridicules grind. It should be obvious.

 

"we will definitely talk through them" <- good one - saying this AFTER you already dropped gear changes you failed to mention.

 

We so believe you guys!

 

This is just like the ninja update that they claimed 2 servers for east and west.... only to have no actual west coast server but instead it is named that (despite it physically located on the east coast.)

 

LOL It is just funny now watching this all play out! Sad, I have more fun on the forums now than I do playing the game.

Edited January 11, 2019 by NuSeC

[Costello]

I wonder if gearing is the real issue.

 

Now I agree that it sucks, I don't think you can add two new tiers of gear on the back of the content added in 5.10. Nor am I a big fan of the limited way in which it can be obtained. That said, if they hadn't introduced new gear where would that leave people for the next x number of months till 6.0

 

If you are a story or solo player, 5.10 dropped at best 4 hours of story. Now if you are interested in story you probably consumed that in 2 nights (possibly one), your probably took a few characters through the either arc so hopefully a weeks worth of play some some nice dailies. Hardly though masses of content to keep people engrossed after the long dry spell.

 

While for PvP and GSF players, well you had the SUMMER OF PVP. Though it seems to be followed by the NEW YEAR of PVP for the amount of actual content this added. The game sadly falls short on PvP, no real open world and little gained aside from grinding out some points. Class balance, gear balance, group balance are still issues, along with win trading and a general lack of faction identity hardly make this a PvP mecca.

 

Now Operations have received a lot of love under Keith, though the latest Master Mode was suggested by the devs to be played by only a very small percentage of players. We all hazard guesses 1% maybe as much as 5%. For those that fall into that category there maybe enough to keep them going till 6.0. However for the 95% to 99% not really a great use of resources.

 

So gearing in 5.10 maybe bad. But if there wasn't the new gear grind and made to be unpopular so as to be seen as the big bad, would we instead be asking where is the content? WHat next and when? This way at least the majority are agreement the gearing is the issue, which they can take a few months fixing (to show listening to feedback) as opposed to complaints about how very little there is to do in game which is somewhat more damning.

[kodrac]

So gearing in 5.10 maybe bad. But if there wasn't the new gear grind and made to be unpopular so as to be seen as the big bad, would we instead be asking where is the content?

 

Of course. We got another tier of gear and a worse grind than before because they can't release any content. I thought that was obvious. I've been saying that since the new tier was announced with the road map.

[olagatonjedi]

I am going to go with the 180 version here.

 

It is obvious by the posters that they are less happy with the changes. The fact that people have left the game in droves after updates that they were warned not to release but did anyways... 5.0 is an excellent example.

 

You again seem to be playing to an extreme version of an extreme minority.

 

The stated example of massive player loss... measurable by fleet population alone (so much so they have merged servers like 4 times), it is easy to see that YOU would need to prove that more are happy than unhappy about those changes.

 

People have complained, they didn't listen, and now many if not most of those people are gone.

 

I am not going to argue with you here. All the evidence anyone needs is in the server merges and fleet population... or for folks like me who have been around from pre-launch - just looking at empty friends lists. Those players are now playing other games. I am more on the forum now than the actual game - I am actually playing something else as well and have been for over the past year.

People leave the game for a variety of reasons and cannot exclusively be deduced to a universally accepted definition or criteria of fun. People leaving is not proof, its speculation.

[olagatonjedi]

The defenders here on the forums can rationalize the changes all they want, but not one of them have proclaimed the changes have been in the best interest of the game, nor have any of them said the changes have improved the gameplay and made the game more enjoyable. That says a lot about the most recent changes to the game.

Actually, many of my posts regarding the topics that i have posted on (since i dont post just to argue, i only post on topics i have something to say about) have indicated why it is beneficial or appropriate for the benefit of the game. The benefit is not always immediate like most players are looking for. The benefit is for longevity of the game, and its been stated many times by "the defenders."

 

And in regards to pvp gearing, it has also been discussed how pvp gearing had previously broken the game and been bad for the health of the game, especially in the era of separate pvp gear vs pve gear.

 

I dont understand how you (and others) always conclude that your view of the game is the majority view. I make no claims as such, and consistenly state that none of us have a clue what the population truly wants or wishes.

Edited January 9, 2019 by olagatonjedi

[TrixxieTriss]

Everyone should just put the forum spammer (troll) on ignore. I find that it cuts a thread like this down from 7000 pages to only 30 pages.

 

I normally do, but sometimes when in game pvp is slow, the only recourse is forum pvp.

[Ardrossan]

I'm in one of the biggest guilds in SS [not SC]. We routinely have 20-30 people on at night, perhaps half that during weekdays. We mostly raid or do FPs, but also some pvp. As far as the 5.10 gearing goes, there have been a few convos about it in discord, and annoyance about our evasive community manager, but in general they do the Ossus WBs and grind for the weekly masterwork crystals without fuss. They rarely go to the forum, and when they do, it is only to read the gold posts for updates.

 

Now, is this typical of players? Maybe. I want to say 'probably'. They may be somewhat annoyed about the state of the game, but they still go out and grind for gear, and enjoy playing, and they don't make a big production about it on the forum. They wouldn't agree with Oleg, but they also wouldn't argue with him either, because at the end of the day, it's not the last straw.

 

For me personally, I've barely done Ossus with one character [i stayed for the reveal, then got bored and played a different game]. I've made no move to collect masterwork crystals, or to get my characters through ossus to grind rep. Just as UC and GCXP was originally broken when it was first released, this will probably get fixed too. Soon? Probably not. I also don't care enough to complain, because lots of other people are willing to either complain or play it through so I don't have to. By the time I get around to actually grinding Ossus, it'll be fixed so it won't be as much of a pain as it is for you. So, I guess I should say thank you. Thank you for beta-testing this, and sacrificing your time and emotional stamina, to make it easier on the casuals who will come later.

 

Does that put your melodrama in perspective?

[NuSeC]

People leave the game for a variety of reasons and cannot exclusively be deduced to a universally accepted definition or criteria of fun. People leaving is not proof, its speculation.

 

Universal accepted? People cant agree on weather.

That is why words like "majority" and "minority" are used.

 

The MAJORITY of players are unhappy with the gear changes.

 

Also, it is not speculation when they say why...

Edited January 9, 2019 by NuSeC

[aryss]

Universal accepted? People cant agree on weather.

That is why words like "majority" and "minority" are used.

 

The MAJORITY of players are unhappy with the gear changes.

 

Also, it is not speculation when they say why...

 

Just let it go, NuSeC.

It's pretty clear he thinks himself superior to everyone else and his opinion is the only that matter. I found that putting him on ignore saved a lot of my time. After all, to quote Einstein: "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

[olagatonjedi]

Universal accepted? People cant agree on weather.

That is why words like "majority" and "minority" are used.

 

The MAJORITY of players are unhappy with the gear changes.

 

Also, it is not speculation when they say why...

You agreed with my point, perhaps without realizing it. However, the majority of players likely dont post or even come to the forums. Where are you getting data that shows the majority of players are unhappy?

Edited January 9, 2019 by olagatonjedi

[olagatonjedi]

I'm in one of the biggest guilds in SS [not SC]. We routinely have 20-30 people on at night, perhaps half that during weekdays. We mostly raid or do FPs, but also some pvp. As far as the 5.10 gearing goes, there have been a few convos about it in discord, and annoyance about our evasive community manager, but in general they do the Ossus WBs and grind for the weekly masterwork crystals without fuss. They rarely go to the forum, and when they do, it is only to read the gold posts for updates.

 

Now, is this typical of players? Maybe. I want to say 'probably'. They may be somewhat annoyed about the state of the game, but they still go out and grind for gear, and enjoy playing, and they don't make a big production about it on the forum. They wouldn't agree with Oleg, but they also wouldn't argue with him either, because at the end of the day, it's not the last straw.

 

For me personally, I've barely done Ossus with one character [i stayed for the reveal, then got bored and played a different game]. I've made no move to collect masterwork crystals, or to get my characters through ossus to grind rep. Just as UC and GCXP was originally broken when it was first released, this will probably get fixed too. Soon? Probably not. I also don't care enough to complain, because lots of other people are willing to either complain or play it through so I don't have to. By the time I get around to actually grinding Ossus, it'll be fixed so it won't be as much of a pain as it is for you. So, I guess I should say thank you. Thank you for beta-testing this, and sacrificing your time and emotional stamina, to make it easier on the casuals who will come later.

 

Does that put your melodrama in perspective?

A reasonable and honest, unbiased post. Thanks for that

[Stellarcrusade]

I normally do, but sometimes when in game pvp is slow, the only recourse is forum pvp.

 

Yeah but trolls are very unintelligent. Forum PvP against a troll is like attacking a baby with a machine gun. Its pointless and ugly.

[Lhancelot]

Where are you getting data that shows the majority of players are unhappy?

 

I'd like to see data that shows players are happy with the changes. What data can you provide that shows players are happy, and that the game is actually doing better since they have made changes to conquest and now most recently to gearing?

 

Seeing that the feedback given has been overwhelmingly negative in the game, on the forums, on twitter, basically everywhere I have to say that common sense indicates the changes BW/EA have made to conquest/gearing has made the players unhappy.

 

Sure, some may say "adapt" or "it's not a big deal" but those are about the best responses you get out of the hundreds of responses regarding conquest and gearing changes since 5.0-5.10. Those types of responses don't exactly indicate a sense of happiness do they? Not in my world anyway.

[olagatonjedi]

I'd like to see data that shows players are happy with the changes. What data can you provide that shows players are happy, and that the game is actually doing better since they have made changes to conquest and now most recently to gearing?

I not claiming people are happy or not happy. Thus, i have no need to provide data.

 

Seeing that the feedback given has been overwhelmingly negative in the game, on the forums, on twitter, basically everywhere I have to say that common sense indicates the changes BW/EA have made to conquest/gearing has made the players unhappy.

I see some people unhappy, but certainly not the majority of posters, and certainly cant conclude that people who havent publically stated anything are automatically lumped in with the unhappy players. Like i said, prove it. Heresay from you personal experience and connections does not equate to the entire population.

 

Sure, some may say "adapt" or "it's not a big deal" but those are about the best responses you get out of the hundreds of responses regarding conquest and gearing changes since 5.0-5.10. Those types of responses don't exactly indicate a sense of happiness do they? Not in my world anyway.

People dont have to be happy to not be unhappy. Expectations of the game often lead people to be apathetic to changes the game goes through, which is normal for a lot of MMO players. If you expect super exciting bells and whistles after 7 years, you will likely be unhappy. If you expect the standard MMO experience of grinding, new gear, old content mixed with a little new content, then maybe you wont be happy, but more than likely satisfied.

 

An MMO doesnt need to make someone happy, but it does need to have value to that individual. Ive been content in relationships that didnt necessarily make me happy. Ive had meals that were great, but didnt necessarily make me happy. It doesnt mean i should be disappointed or unhappy with what i had. Perhaps people need to re-evaluate their expectations. After all the bashing and criticism of BW over the years, one thing remains for many people - they arent providing what THOSE people want. But they continue to do it. Perhaps the takeaway should be that you (and others) need to adjust their expectations. If it looks like an orange, smells like an orange, feels like an orange, and tastes like an orange, no matter how much you believe its an apple wont change it from being an orange. We can expect it will be an orange next time we feel, smell, taste, and look at it.

[Lhancelot]

I not claiming people are happy or not happy. Thus, i have no need to provide data.

 

 

I see some people unhappy, but certainly not the majority of posters, and certainly cant conclude that people who havent publically stated anything are automatically lumped in with the unhappy players. Like i said, prove it. Heresay from you personal experience and connections does not equate to the entire population.

 

 

People dont have to be happy to not be unhappy. Expectations of the game often lead people to be apathetic to changes the game goes through, which is normal for a lot of MMO players. If you expect super exciting bells and whistles after 7 years, you will likely be unhappy. If you expect the standard MMO experience of grinding, new gear, old content mixed with a little new content, then maybe you wont be happy, but more than likely satisfied.

 

An MMO doesnt need to make someone happy, but it does need to have value to that individual. Ive been content in relationships that didnt necessarily make me happy. Ive had meals that were great, but didnt necessarily make me happy. It doesnt mean i should be disappointed or unhappy with what i had. Perhaps people need to re-evaluate their expectations. After all the bashing and criticism of BW over the years, one thing remains for many people - they arent providing what THOSE people want. But they continue to do it. Perhaps the takeaway should be that you (and others) need to adjust their expectations. If it looks like an orange, smells like an orange, feels like an orange, and tastes like an orange, no matter how much you believe its an apple wont change it from being an orange. We can expect it will be an orange next time we feel, smell, taste, and look at it.

 

The part about recognizing the game for what it is at this point is true. Hence why everyone should come to their own conclusion about the game and the changes to it and how they ought to respond to said changes.

 

I think the difference here is tons of time and emotion by many players has been invested, unlike recognizing a fruit for what it is. If you went to the store and got an apple, then the apple changed into an orange, and you hated oranges you would not be pleased with the change.

 

Now imagine years of time, energy, thoughts, emotions, all of which have gone into this game dealing with very significant changes. Changes that are like my analogy of your apple turning into an orange, which you hate only on a much grander scale.

 

That’s why it’s not really comparable from an emotional stand point. It’s a good point though recognizing the game for what it is now, though, I agree but you can’t compare the emotional impact some of these changes have on many of the players. Most players view a MMO in a much different light than a random piece of fruit.

 

Expectations for the game often start out based on what the game began as especially for those who subbed from the very beginning. Most expect the game to follow a similar route of development as it began with, so when the game changes significantly it’s inevitable to cause a lot of blowback. Which it has.

Edited January 9, 2019 by Lhancelot

[olagatonjedi]

The part about recognizing the game for what it is at this point is true. Hence why everyone should come to their own conclusion about the game and the changes to it and how they ought to respond to said changes.

 

I think the difference here is tons of time and emotion by many players has been invested, unlike recognizing a fruit for what it is. If you went to the store and got an apple, then the apple changed into an orange, and you hated oranges you would not be pleased with the change.

 

Now imagine years of time, energy, thoughts, emotions, all of which have gone into this game dealing with very significant changes. Changes that are like my analogy of your apple turning into an orange, which you hate only on a much grander scale.

 

That’s why it’s not really comparable from an emotional stand point. It’s a good point though recognizing the game for what it is now, though, I agree but you can’t compare the emotional impact some of these changes have on many of the players. Most players view a MMO in a much different light than a random piece of fruit.

 

Expectations for the game often start out based on what the game began as especially for those who subbed from the very beginning. Most expect the game to follow a similar route of development as it began with, so when the game changes significantly it’s inevitable to cause a lot of blowback. Which it has.

There is one constant of MMOs, including swtor, since they cane to the market - they are dynamic and never cater to one specific type of player with every update/expansion/change. THAT is the MMO being the orange. Its constant is that its not always going to please everyone. People knew (or should have known given the disclaimer on the box and in the EULA, that the game may not suit their individual tastes and interests 100% during the lifetime of the game. That is the cinstant. If people dont realize this by now, i'd say they were given an orange originally, and expect it to be an apple all of a sudden. Thats their faulty expectations, not Biowares ineptitude or "changjng things up."

[Yeldah_]

I highly suspect that this gear grind is just BioWare buying time until Anthem drops. I have heard that their future depends on its success. Whether this is true or not the issues that you are talking about here are 100% intentional. Last I checked you have to be a sub to get CXP and gear up. Thus that is the objective; they are just trying to force subs and buy time until their new title is released.

[TrixxieTriss]

I highly suspect that this gear grind is just BioWare buying time until Anthem drops. I have heard that their future depends on its success. Whether this is true or not the issues that you are talking about here are 100% intentional. Last I checked you have to be a sub to get CXP and gear up. Thus that is the objective; they are just trying to force subs and buy time until their new title is released.

 

Then we have until February 22nd to find out.

[KendraP]

I'd like to see data that shows players are happy with the changes. What data can you provide that shows players are happy, and that the game is actually doing better since they have made changes to conquest and now most recently to gearing?

 

5.10 killed off the last bit of fun i was having in swtor, so i basically stopped playing. Sorry Musco, your grind for the aake of grind coupled with your usual ninja changes and lack of communication finally killed it for me.

 

Besides, when I do decide to log in, I can choose between the toxic server and the server full of people who started playing a week ago, or that's what it feels like.

 

My time is more limited than ever - I have zero desire to do grind for the sake of grind and was perfectly accepting of the fact new content was few and far between. All you had to do, Musco, was literally nothing. Instead, you continue to change for the sake of saying you're doing something and in the process, ruin what was fun about your game.

 

The straw that broke the camel's back was your response to those of us who completed the kill two world boss weekly for a 252 weapon but had it bug on us. Seriously, replying with "its a bug?" Well no crap?! Somehow I figured that much out for myself, thanks. I was under the impression you used PTS now and thus, major bugs shouldn't have made it live. Since obviously they did, you should just accept that fact and throw players that can prove they killed the bosses some kind of bone. Instead its, "oh its a bug!! But we'll fix it a week from now, maybe, and screw you. May the force be with you!" Well Musco, may the force be with you, and the players who seemingly like getting screwed on every corner.

Edited January 10, 2019 by KendraP

[Lhancelot]

5.10 killed off the last bit of fun i was having in swtor, so i basically stopped playing. Sorry Musco, your grind for the aake of grind coupled with your usual ninja changes and lack of communication finally killed it for me.

 

Besides, when I do decide to log in, I can choose between the toxic server and the server full of people who started playing a week ago, or that's what it feels like.

 

My time is more limited than ever - I have zero desire to do grind for the sake of grind and was perfectly accepting of the fact new content was few and far between. All you had to do, Musco, was literally nothing. Instead, you continue to change for the sake of saying you're doing something and in the process, ruin what was fun about your game.

 

The straw that broke the camel's back was your response to those of us who completed the kill two world boss weekly for a 252 weapon but had it bug on us. Seriously, replying with "its a bug?" Well no crap?! Somehow I figured that much out for myself, thanks. I was under the impression you used PTS now and thus, major bugs shouldn't have made it live. Since obviously they did, you should just accept that fact and throw players that can prove they killed the bosses some kind of bone. Instead its, "oh its a bug!! But we'll fix it a week from now, maybe, and screw you. May the force be with you!" Well Musco, may the force be with you, and the players who seemingly like getting screwed on every corner.

 

Then you add a community manager that seems incapable of actually managing the community. Friendly yellow messages sporadically dumped on the forums aren't enough.

 

This adds to the frustration of the players that seek answers or have concerns about the game, who come to the forums for transparent communication with the person responsible for such communication who simply fails to deliver.

 

Very specific concerns have been brought up on these forums, and it's as if these posts don't exist. No response, no acknowledgement at all. It's like they only acknowledge the problems they want to exist, not all the problems.

 

All adds up to a big fail.

[kirorx]

5.10 killed off the last bit of fun i was having in swtor, so i basically stopped playing. Sorry Musco, your grind for the aake of grind coupled with your usual ninja changes and lack of communication finally killed it for me.

 

Besides, when I do decide to log in, I can choose between the toxic server and the server full of people who started playing a week ago, or that's what it feels like.

 

My time is more limited than ever - I have zero desire to do grind for the sake of grind and was perfectly accepting of the fact new content was few and far between. All you had to do, Musco, was literally nothing. Instead, you continue to change for the sake of saying you're doing something and in the process, ruin what was fun about your game.

 

The straw that broke the camel's back was your response to those of us who completed the kill two world boss weekly for a 252 weapon but had it bug on us. Seriously, replying with "its a bug?" Well no crap?! Somehow I figured that much out for myself, thanks. I was under the impression you used PTS now and thus, major bugs shouldn't have made it live. Since obviously they did, you should just accept that fact and throw players that can prove they killed the bosses some kind of bone. Instead its, "oh its a bug!! But we'll fix it a week from now, maybe, and screw you. May the force be with you!" Well Musco, may the force be with you, and the players who seemingly like getting screwed on every corner.

 

What's crazy is had been playing more than usual up until 5.10 and have been really looking forward to 5.10 since it was going to bring a return to sith vs rep.

 

What have I been enjoying>

 

Leveling alts to max CxP and swapping gear betwen alts to max them out. This is done by playing ANY content in game, so I can bounce around and just have fun playing all aspects of the game with all my characters and while the RnG can be a pain in the backside, there are plenty of other things that drop that I can sell or use for crafting.

 

The only thing this game needed was a tweak to the assembled components and having a way to trade in duplicates for components. Also, making ear pieces, implants and relics shareable among legacy.

 

Years ago we only had 5 flashpoints when the max level was 55 and the rest of the game was out leveled and obsolete.

 

When level sync was added and we could play the old content again and with CxP we could get rewards for playing anything.

 

Running Ossus over and over and over again, is not FUN and feels like the level 55 days all over again.

 

People will say you dont "need" the new gear, but when you have played since launch earning gear is the content that is worth playing for. The gap between story updates is just too long and makes it feel stale.

[Biomild]

I understand you BW guys like RNG, we dont, but yeah. But how is the droprate of relics programmed? I got 14 relics so far, and 12 of those are of the wrong type. That is a bit of too much bad luck I would say.

 

Can you guys at least make it possible when you upgrade to 258, you can change the type of relic (or ear/implant), so mine are not totally useless.

 

Thank you.

[Rion_Starkiller]

These are good questions, so let me try to address them.

 

1 - This is an intended change. That being said, we know there is definitely some friction from this change and so keep raising your concerns/feedback which I can pass to the team. We have made no secret of the fact that we know we are due for some big itemization changes to address a variety of issues around gearing. Please keep telling us what you would like to see in the future from gearing in SWTOR. We will continue to gather feedback and as we get into the next year, we will have active conversations with you about future gearing plans.

 

2 - This is a bug, I acknowledged it here. The reason we didn't fix it with today's patch is that addressing this issue is actually pretty substantial from our side. It will involve us not only fixing the items to work properly going forward, but we need to actually "change" the gear already in the wild to work together. That is the part that is challenging as we need to touch armorings that players are wearing without impacting the rest of their gear. We are working on a solution for this, but it is not something we could turn around in time for 5.10a.

 

Thank you all for your continued feedback. Bigger itemization changes will come and we will definitely talk through them with you when they get here (not soon™). Thanks all.

 

-eric

 

20 days later, Any updates on 5.10 bugs? Some of them are gamebreaking, like set bonus. But the longer ya wait to address the set bonus bug, the less likely you will need to even bother fixing it (as everyone will have 252+).

 

Another game breaking bug is digging up the Ossus jedi relics. That quest is virtually incomplete-able without changing instances multiple times... and even then, still probably not.

 

3rd game-breaking bug: GSF crystal weekly does not progress. Very few people will get their crystal this week. Should I put in an in-game ticket to get my crystal? Can you confirm that only wins count toward progressing this mission?

Edited January 10, 2019 by Rion_Starkiller

[olagatonjedi]

Another game breaking bug is digging up the Ossus jedi relics. That quest is virtually incomplete-able without changing instances multiple times... and even then, still probably not.

Just curious how this quest is game breaking? Ive been able to complete my weekly without ever doing that one.

[Rion_Starkiller]

Just curious how this quest is game breaking? Ive been able to complete my weekly without ever doing that one.

 

Yes, you can still complete your weekly regardless. Do you want to discuss why I chose to use it as one of my 3 game-breaking bugs, or do you have a comment on the other two I mentioned as well?