The constant mentioning of Autism in PVP

[Mournblood]

@ Severith

 

Did you read any of my prior posts in this thread, or did you just zero in on that last one and start dissecting it? I'm assuming you didn't, but I'll get back to that later after I've responded to some of your specific points.

 

Mourne, not once in the harassment policy is the word "Toxic" or "Toxicity" mentioned.

 

Are you seriously going to argue semantics? Just because the word "toxic" doesn't actually appear in the policy, doesn't mean that it's somehow excluded. Toxicity is a word that players coined, not Bioware. Regardless of it's etymology, it is essentially a form of harassment when a player intentionally and maliciously attempts to offend another player or group of players which is in essence outlined in the policy as 'verbal harassment with the intention of distressing or offending other players'. They don't need to add "aka toxicity" to the policy to make it applicable, because the term was derived from harassment.

 

Nothing was defined by the harassment policy. You're basing what you think "toxicity" is on a vaguely worded, and quite frankly pathetic harassment policy which does more to assert the rights and opinions of the CS department than anything else.

 

That's your interpretation, which is irrelevant here. It's their game, their rules. Not SWTOR according to Severith, or anyone else for that matter. And it might not seem very credible to most players given how frequently players violate that policy, and yet how infrequently it's enforced. But that's a problem with enforcement, not the policy itself. It's also directly why toxicity, however vaguely it may be defined, continues to grow in this game and others.

 

So are you going to leave a warzone because someone told you "You suck"?

 

I don't expect you to know who I am or to care about getting to know me, but if you did, you wouldn't have asked that question. Nevertheless, I'll answer it. I've been PvPing in this game predominantly for nearly the entire 6 years I was subscribed to it. I've been called everything you can possibly imagine. I've even been accused of hacking. I've PvP'd extensively in other games before this one, such as WoW, Warhammer Online, EVE Online, Rift. I even PvP'd in EQ, which was a terrifying prospect when you could get some of your gear looted by another player. I have left WZs in this game on rare occasions when playing solo, but not because someone was trash talking me. Did that sufficiently answer your question?

 

That's what the rules tell you to do. It tells you to leave the warzone and not report it.

 

This part of their harassment policy does more long term harm than it does short term good, and it's also at the core of my issue with the entire topic of "toxicity". It's become the norm because it's been allowed to. Delegating game enforcement to the players (which they do to save money) isn't an effective way to police antisocial player behavior. And in every MMO I've played where this has been the case, toxicity has flourished. In your example, a player shouldn't have to leave a WZ to demonstrate an effort to avoid someone who's crossed the line of acceptable behavior. A player shouldn't have to spend hours placing players on Ignore or filling reports because the system is antiquated and easily circumvented. A player shouldn't have to disable entire public channels to amputate parts of the game that have become gangrenous. It's logically no different than telling a kid he has to change classes to avoid some bully, and the staff will only get involved if that bully decides to follow the kid to their new class. It's utterly ridiculous, and it's policy because it saves Bioware money in overhead, but that doesn't mean it's right, or that it works well, or that it makes the game more enjoyable for the players who are on the receiving end of harassment, or that players shouldn't expect more from a game developer than a /shrug.

 

You can say the rules are there, and aren't up for debate, but most people know that laws (or policy) is vastly different than the application of said laws (or policy).

 

This is probably the only point we agree on. What you're referring to here is the letter of the law versus the spirit of the law, but again, it's not up to me or you to interpret that. It's up to Bioware. If they choose to be more lenient on some player behavior than others, that's their prerogative. We don't have to like it, but we implicitly agree to it every time we launch the game or pay our subscription. That doesn't mean that their policies regarding appropriate player behavior have no value. My personal issue that I have with this is that they do a poor and inconsistent job of enforcing them, which has led to a lot of the apathy and impudence that has helped fuel the toxicity we see in the game today. The policy is sound, but it makes little difference if there's no transparency and no real deterrence that compels players to abide by it.

 

You think they're going to punish paying customers who only technically violate the policy, or will they take a practical approach, which sees typical behavior as an "incidents" and not harassment?

 

That's an extremely short-sighted approach, and I think that Bioware is learning that the hard way with the rampant cheating in Ranked. They were too lenient about it for far too long until it became such a pervasive problem that now they are forced to do audits at the end of each Ranked season that literally take weeks. They still don't catch everyone because there's so many people doing it. Ultimately, being too lenient has cost them subscribers, so it's a poor premise to base an argument on financial considerations when their earlier unwillingness to be more harsh on paying customers has quite literally bit them in the posterior. And it's worth pointing out to you that just because someone is a paying customer doesn't mean they should get special treatment or be exempt from the Rules of Conduct. They are and should still be held accountable to the same Terms of Service as everyone else.

 

Who defines harassment, and toxicity, and simple trashtalk? We do. The consumers. We define it by the online culture we create, which sets the standards and environment for which these interactions occur.

 

It's actually society (and multiple societies interacting and affecting one another) that determines those values over time, not the consumers of a video game. They are called mores and folkways, by the late sociologist William Graham Sumner. They are the cornerstone of modern sociology. As for it's relevance here, Bioware's harassment policy is for the most part drawn from those societal values, not political correctness, and not any specific player demographic or gaming culture. I'm certain their legal department had some input as well.

 

So yeah, what harassment is, what toxicity is, and defining typical behavior is very much based on what our collective opinion is. That's why telling someone "you suck" in pvp isn't harassment. Because almost no one in our community sees it that way.

 

You're right, most (PvP) players don't consider trash talk to be toxic, but you're way oversimplifying this to the point of obfuscating the real issue here. Some things are collectively and universally considered inappropriate. Again, I consider toxicity as anything that crosses that line, universally, not just for me personally. And if you go back and read my earlier posts, I think that should have been fairly evident from the examples I provided. At least I thought I made it pretty clear what I consider to be toxic. Not once in any previous post, which you apparently didn't read, did I include trash talking in PvP. While I do feel it's immature and don't agree with it, it often merely consists of memes like "get gud" or "try harder" or even the less imaginative "L2P" which are not what I consider to be toxic.

 

To more directly address your point though, I agree that saying "you suck" is simply trash talk, and it is not harassment in of itself. If someone added to that, "You suck so bad that I'm going to take one for the team and f* your inbred mom so that her next welfare kid is less of an autistic retard than you," that is what I would consider to be toxic. It was the use of autism as a slur that precipitated this thread, which is quite a few miles away from just telling someone they suck. Anything that crosses the line from mere immaturity or banality to something that is more intentionally and maliciously offensive is toxic. But you're a smart guy, so I assume you understand the difference here and I don't need to explain it further.

 

That being said, it is just speech.

 

'Words are, in my not-so-humble opinion, our most inexhaustible source of magic. Capable of both inflicting injury, and remedying it.'

 

Professor Albus Dumbledore

(JK Rowling)

Edited November 19, 2018 by Mournblood

[kissingaiur]

The first thing i want to make clear is for how this word is it's being used, is not strictly a swtor related problem. The mention of "autism" as a general insult is a pretty recent development in almost every video game with a multiplayer function. It's pretty much wide spread at this point. It hasn't anything to do with swtor related culture but internet culture in general. When dealing with things such as internet culture related topics, its extremely hard to stop the train once it's started.

 

"Autism" as a general insult is a new thing but there is a long list of words that fit into this mold. We all here even though we are noticing how ****ed up it is, are all probably guilty of using other words in literally context. Such as retard, f-g, cancer etc, in various agrees of words in how offensive they are to the moment we are trying to convey. In the end, after using words in this context such as: yelling at a team mate for not pulling their weight, or stubbing your toe or that guy who flicked you off, these words start to lose their original meaning and basically just become an offensive word you use for any scenero; separate from what they actually mean.

 

For example when i'm describing something that is frustrating my brain instantly goes to "cancerous" because its the fast and easiest way to convey what i mean in the culture i am a part of. Is it right? No, of course not but you use it in gaming culture everyone knows that the context. Isn't that something is literally cancer, the meaning is implied which is frustration. Words change in meaning ALL THE TIME, and a lot of that meaning is in context in what culture or group you are talking in. (I use "cancer" as an example because it its a low-tier example of what I am trying to say. I am NOT saying, saying something worse is OK because of the group your in).

 

Words changing meaning is no way condoning using offensive words to convey something because people who use them forget the context of the word. For example, calling gay person who frustrated you a "f-g" because in that context, it doesn't mean what you think it means. To YOU it might be you are doing a general internet insult but for them the word means so much more; it's extremely offensive beyond what you think it means. This goes for other related insults based on sex, gender, sexuality, race etc. There is somethings you really should not say.

 

I think the best thing to do to fight internet culture when it comes to using offensive words for the sake of being offensive (not the actual meaning) is to remind people of the real definition. It's easy to get lost in the idea of how words change meaning online and forget that meaning is different from person to person; especially if they are gay, have cancer or struggling with mental problem. Honestly people just need to start being decent human beings. If you are saying things online to someone you wouldn't dare say to someone you love, you should rethink your behavior.

 

Also, Ill add: In all seriousness if you personally have a hard time understanding what empathy is (this is normal), just think about how you would feel if you were gay or autistic if people around you (even your friends) were saying f-g and autistic all the time in an offensive way. What you say does matter and does affect people. Be the change you want to see.

 

anyways food for thought

Edited November 19, 2018 by kissingaiur

[Rion_Starkiller]

...

 

Not trying negate your post, because I agree with everything you said.

 

However:

can·cer

/ˈkansər/Submit

noun

1.the disease caused by an uncontrolled division of abnormal cells in a part of the body.

"he's got cancer"

2.a malignant growth or tumor resulting from the division of abnormal cells.

plural noun: cancers

"most skin cancers are curable"

synonyms: malignant growth, cancerous growth, tumor, malignancy; More

3.a practice or phenomenon perceived to be evil or destructive and hard to contain or eradicate.

"racism is a cancer sweeping across Europe"

 

According to definition 3, you might be using "cancerous" correctly .

[kissingaiur]

Not trying negate your post, because I agree with everything you said.

 

However:

 

 

According to definition 3, you might be using "cancerous" correctly .

 

Oh I didn't actually know that. Thanks for that.

[Severith]

@ Severith

 

Did you read any of my prior posts in this thread, or did you just zero in on that last one and start dissecting it? I'm assuming you didn't, but I'll get back to that later after I've responded to some of your specific points.

 

.

 

Yep, and I'm responding to the specific points that have dissonance with how reality operates in the context of an mmo. I didn't disavow your entire post, simple dissected a part of it.

 

 

 

Are you seriously going to argue semantics?

 

When you state "This is how toxicity is defined, and you can't argue against it cause TOS!" semantics are exactly whats being argued, and how words are applied or not applied.

 

 

 

That's your interpretation, which is irrelevant here. It's their game, their rules. Not SWTOR according to Severith, or anyone else for that matter. And it might not seem very credible to most players given how frequently players violate that policy, and yet how infrequently it's enforced. But that's a problem with enforcement, not the policy itself. It's also directly why toxicity, however vaguely it may be defined, continues to grow in this game and others.

 

 

Talk to two different CS reps and get two diffrent answers, because of how vague the policy is. Enforcing a vague, wet noodle policy which relies more on opinions and feelings of CS reps disinclines those very same reps from taking any serious action, because it's their job, and their promotion on the line when a paying customer gets angry. The policy literally says harassment isn't harassment until a CS rep deems it so. The CS reps are on the chopping block because of that, and they have little reason to stick their necks out unless absolutely needed.

 

 

I don't expect you to know who I am or to care about getting to know me, but if you did, you wouldn't have asked that question. Nevertheless, I'll answer it. I've been PvPing in this game predominantly for nearly the entire 6 years I was subscribed to it. I've been called everything you can possibly imagine. I've even been accused of hacking. I've PvP'd extensively in other games before this one, such as WoW, Warhammer Online, EVE Online, Rift. I even PvP'd in EQ, which was a terrifying prospect when you could get some of your gear looted by another player. I have left WZs in this game on rare occasions when playing solo, but not because someone was trash talking me. Did that sufficiently answer your question?

 

 

The question was a rhetorical one, because no one leaves a WZ when someone gets a little trash talk. The point was, quite simply, even "normal" trash talk violates the harassment policy. It's not a personal attack on you, it's a statement on how inflexible and unenforceable the harassment policy is.

 

I do know you, known you for years, spoken to you one on one through voice chat. We've dueled dozens of times, fought in warzones together probably 300-400 times if not more. Notice how I called you Mourne instead of Mournblood? I know you're a generally decent guy, but I also know exactly how you think when you get triggered. You completely lose perspective. Hence the purpose of my entire post to you. Perspective on the reality of the situation, not the policy that doesn't seem to affect it.

 

 

 

 

This part of their harassment policy does more long term harm than it does short term good, and it's also at the core of my issue with the entire topic of "toxicity". It's become the norm because it's been allowed to. Delegating game enforcement to the players (which they do to save money) isn't an effective way to police antisocial player behavior. And in every MMO I've played where this has been the case, toxicity has flourished. In your example, a player shouldn't have to leave a WZ to demonstrate an effort to avoid someone who's crossed the line of acceptable behavior. A player shouldn't have to spend hours placing players on Ignore or filling reports because the system is antiquated and easily circumvented. A player shouldn't have to disable entire public channels to amputate parts of the game that have become gangrenous. It's logically no different than telling a kid he has to change classes to avoid some bully, and the staff will only get involved if that bully decides to follow the kid to their new class. It's utterly ridiculous, and it's policy because it saves Bioware money in overhead, but that doesn't mean it's right, or that it works well, or that it makes the game more enjoyable for the players who are on the receiving end of harassment, or that players shouldn't expect more from a game developer than a /shrug.

 

 

It's the policy that makes the victim even more of a victim by putting the burden of avoidance on them. It's the policy that says "Don't report, just leave the area." and "It's not harassment unless we say it is". I'm sure we've both had friends forced out of the game because account wide ignore doesn't exist, and because of the grey middle ground between what EA thinks is "interaction" and "harassment"

 

This is probably the only point we agree on. What you're referring to here is the letter of the law versus the spirit of the law, but again, it's not up to me or you to interpret that. It's up to Bioware. If they choose to be more lenient on some player behavior than others, that's their prerogative. We don't have to like it, but we implicitly agree to it every time we launch the game or pay our subscription. That doesn't mean that their policies regarding appropriate player behavior have no value. My personal issue that I have with this is that they do a poor and inconsistent job of enforcing them, which has led to a lot of the apathy and impudence that has helped fuel the toxicity we see in the game today. The policy is sound, but it makes little difference if there's no transparency and no real deterrence that compels players to abide by it.

 

 

The spirit of the policy is very much determined by the dollars in our wallet, because how it is interpreted, and enforced, determines who subs and who moves on. This is EA. We know which way they lean.

 

How is a policy that has no accountability to it's customers "sound"? If it's sound, then autism would fit into one of the mentioned categories right? But it's not a creed, religion, sex, etc. The only policy it fits into is a "group". Well, what does "group" mean in 2018? Groups as a social construct are so overused and endlessly debated that anything can be used as a "group". Hence, it's not enforceable policy unless it's at the most basic of levels and surface traits. An effective policy would focus on the behavior of the aggressor, not as the behavior relates to specific groups. Larger societal picture time, that's how everything should be handled. Instead of protection for specific groups or people who can identify as groups, protection for everyone.

 

 

 

 

It's actually society (and multiple societies interacting and affecting one another) that determines those values over time, not the consumers of a video game. They are called mores and folkways, by the late sociologist William Graham Sumner. They are the cornerstone of modern sociology. As for it's relevance here, Bioware's harassment policy is for the most part drawn from those societal values, not political correctness, and not any specific player demographic or gaming culture. I'm certain their legal department had some input as well.

 

 

William Sumner died in 1910. His theories couldn't encapsulate internet culture, the speed in which it evolves, and the shifting normalities in internet culture that produces. That's why sociologists find the internet, and it's various communities and societies interesting. Cause they've made their own set of rules.

 

 

You're right, most (PvP) players don't consider trash talk to be toxic, but you're way oversimplifying this to the point of obfuscating the real issue here. Some things are collectively and universally considered inappropriate. Again, I consider toxicity as anything that crosses that line, universally, not just for me personally. And if you go back and read my earlier posts, I think that should have been fairly evident from the examples I provided. At least I thought I made it pretty clear what I consider to be toxic. Not once in any previous post, which you apparently didn't read, did I include trash talking in PvP. While I do feel it's immature and don't agree with it, it often merely consists of memes like "get gud" or "try harder" or even the less imaginative "L2P" which are not what I consider to be toxic.

 

To more directly address your point though, I agree that saying "you suck" is simply trash talk, and it is not harassment in of itself. If someone added to that, "You suck so bad that I'm going to take one for the team and f* your inbred mom so that her next welfare kid is less of an autistic retard than you," that is what I would consider to be toxic. It was the use of autism as a slur that precipitated this thread, which is quite a few miles away from just telling someone they suck. Anything that crosses the line from mere immaturity or banality to something that is more intentionally and maliciously offensive is toxic. But you're a smart guy, so I assume you understand the difference here and I don't need to explain it further.

 

Condescension. Nice. Toxic?

 

As I stated in earlier posts, extreme behavior is easy to identify. Providing extreme examples of toxicity doesn't further the conversation. My point is, quite simply, the dividing line between toxicity and trash talk is entirely subjective. Not the extremes, the dividing line. When you combine that with a vague "harassment is only harassment when CS says so" policy it's a dangerous situation when enforced. There are "some things" people say that are universally considered toxic, but it's all subjective after that.

 

The harassment policy needs to be reworked to address behaviors, not specific words, not perpetually offended groups. It needs to have solid definitions for those behaviors, and clearly defined punishments for those behaviors. That way CS can do it's job, be transparent, and above all be fair and reasonable to it's player base.

Edited November 19, 2018 by Severith
spelling mistake

[SushaBrancaleone]

i was live streaming a fps yesterday and someone said something of the sort. I can link the video if needed.

 

The game has been dumbed down enough that anyone telling you LTP is basically declaring they are 12 and on a 'amma school da WOLRD' crusade... talk them down, ignore them whatevs, they probably are less vaccine d that you.

Besides; its not okay to debate sexual preference towards droids... but its ok to taunt genetic dis-functionality? Surely not.

my advice.. Hunt them down!

Edited November 21, 2018 by SushaBrancaleone

[Sith-Viscera]

Problem with people today is? They are out of touch with others, most of their relationships are online through social media. After a few years of this lack of Human contact on a daily basis and that causes one to become Desensitize to every day issues of others which eventually gets so bad these people also lose their empathy. While the younger people never had a chance to develop their empathetic side. Do to they have been desensitized from the time their parents put a ipad in there hand to babysit them, so they can do what ever with out having to know where their kids are at, all the time.

 

Now a few years later those kids are now tweens and teens and are playing online games and they feel 10 feet tall and bullet proof and they will say what ever is on their minds, no matter who their words may offend or hurt. So when they get mad cause they want to blame you for losing a pvp match, when with out a shadow of a doubt it was them that loss the match. They call you, Retard, or remember this old one from just a few years ago, Your Gay, or whats your problem, you got autism? you're a spaz! ok that last one is an real oldie. Then the classic insults, Moron, idiot, dumb@&^, Bluh bluh bluh! They do that cause they cant see you, they dont know you and they can careless if you really had Autism or not. Because they never lived life in the real world, around real people with real problems that they could develop an empathetic bone in their body, so they can feel sadness or happiness exct. for some one other then their selves. Instead of feeling Superior over every one.

 

My advice is? Take those types with a grain of salt. Realize they wasn't raised properly with the same kind of love and understanding that you may had. Just turn away from them, Perhaps feel sorry for them, (Empathy) and go on your way. Try to spread the good word (what ever that may be to you) Then let that slide on by.

 

Cause remember in the immortal word of the Late Great Stan Lee. " Excelsior "

that word enlightens me every day, reminds me to look Upward & Beyond, so i can see how i can improve on making my self a better person then what i was yesterday. I like to think i was a Damn good Person Yesterday. Now i'll be even better one today.

 

Life is to short for all the animosity and trivial bickering, Live life to the fullest and share it with every one you can.

Take Care & Be Well......

 

Happy Thanksgiving

 

Nuff Said........

[Mournblood]

When you state "This is how toxicity is defined, and you can't argue against it cause TOS!" semantics are exactly whats being argued, and how words are applied or not applied.

 

Fair point.

 

Talk to two different CS reps and get two diffrent answers, because of how vague the policy is. Enforcing a vague, wet noodle policy which relies more on opinions and feelings of CS reps disinclines those very same reps from taking any serious action, because it's their job, and their promotion on the line when a paying customer gets angry. The policy literally says harassment isn't harassment until a CS rep deems it so. The CS reps are on the chopping block because of that, and they have little reason to stick their necks out unless absolutely needed.

 

This is possibly true, but we don't know that for sure. There's a lot of assumption here. I would hope that their enforcement team (the specific staff who's job it is to review ToS infractions and action accounts) would have some level of immunity in the performance of their duties, but without actually speaking to one of them, we don't know what actually happens behind that curtain.

 

The question was a rhetorical one, because no one leaves a WZ when someone gets a little trash talk. The point was, quite simply, even "normal" trash talk violates the harassment policy. It's not a personal attack on you, it's a statement on how inflexible and unenforceable the harassment policy is.

 

My mistake.

 

I do know you, known you for years, spoken to you one on one through voice chat. We've dueled dozens of times, fought in warzones together probably 300-400 times if not more. Notice how I called you Mourne instead of Mournblood? I know you're a generally decent guy, but I also know exactly how you think when you get triggered. You completely lose perspective. Hence the purpose of my entire post to you. Perspective on the reality of the situation, not the policy that doesn't seem to affect it.

 

I assumed you used my name because it's in my signature. As I don't recall the character you play on, you have me at a disadvantage. (If you wouldn't mind, please remind me who your toon is. Feel free to PM me if you don't want to advertise that.) As for me getting triggered over this topic, you're absolutely right. It's a very hot topic for me, as I have zero tolerance for people with no personal integrity, which is often at the root of a lot of ills we see in online gaming, and becomes abundantly evident when people hide behind internet anonymity. But I would disagree with you that I lose perspective. I simply have a very well formed opinion based on a lot of years of experience, wisdom (age), and perspective from decades of MMOs (not to mention, life). I think it would be more accurate to say that when I'm championing a topic that I'm passionate about, such as this one, I'm not very patient or tolerant of people who I feel are defending something I consider to be indefensible. That's not a dulled perspective, but one that is razor sharp and only cuts one way, if you'll pardon the metaphor.

 

It's the policy that makes the victim even more of a victim by putting the burden of avoidance on them. It's the policy that says "Don't report, just leave the area." and "It's not harassment unless we say it is". I'm sure we've both had friends forced out of the game because account wide ignore doesn't exist, and because of the grey middle ground between what EA thinks is "interaction" and "harassment".

 

I concur, but I don't believe avoidance has been necessary for reporting as indicated in the policy. I've reported players for egregious behavior that I had no opportunity to avoid until it happened. While I can't say for certain that it was my report that ultimately resulted in account action against them (it could have been someone else reporting them for a related issue), eventually, I did see the player's toon disappear. Of course, in several cases, they just came back on an alternate character, but the point remains that enforcement appeared to happen without the necessity for demonstrating an attempt to avoid them. I think the truth behind the scenes might be more situational. If it's something less offensive, like harassment directed at a specific player, then it might apply in that situation. But for some of the more infamous trolls in public chat channels, that requirement seemed to be waived.

 

The spirit of the policy is very much determined by the dollars in our wallet, because how it is interpreted, and enforced, determines who subs and who moves on. This is EA. We know which way they lean.

 

I completely agree with this. Voting with your wallet is literally the only meaningful way to communicate dissatisfaction with a game studio (or most businesses, for that matter), which is why Bioware won't ever see another subscription dollar from me, and by extension, EA.

 

How is a policy that has no accountability to it's customers "sound"? If it's sound, then autism would fit into one of the mentioned categories right? But it's not a creed, religion, sex, etc.

 

Their harassment policy is definitely in need of an update, but considering they can't even fix the Massive Artillery Turret deco that's been missing its barrels for almost 4 years now, that's not something that's going to happen. Yet it doesn't need to, necessarily. Their enforcement team should have some latitude to apply the policy to in-game behavior that may not be explicitly mentioned. The use of autism as a slur is a relatively recent development, but if they exercise a little common sense, it's probably something that would likely be considered just another category like sexual orientation, gender, race, ethnicity, religion, and so on. The basic idea behind the policy is to keep the game a relatively safe and fun experience for ALL players, not just those who feel they are entitled to be vicious because it's the interwebs. I therefore think that the premise of the policy is sound; it's enforcement that is the problem.

 

William Sumner died in 1910. His theories couldn't encapsulate internet culture, the speed in which it evolves, and the shifting normalities in internet culture that produces. That's why sociologists find the internet, and it's various communities and societies interesting. Cause they've made their own set of rules.

 

The internet has often been regarded by sociologists as a microcosm of society, because it typically reflects the very same values of its users. What's considered a more or a folkway or a taboo in society doesn't change when a person gets on the internet. What muddies that picture, and certainly what Sumner couldn't account for, is the displacement of social inhibitions due to internet anonymity. This is in effect no different than a lawless state, where societal values are often subjugated by the ensuing anarchy. That doesn't mean they aren't still the building blocks of society - just that they are being ignored or deconstructed by sociopathic behavior in a consequence free environment.

 

Condescension. Nice.

 

Sorry about that.

 

As I stated in earlier posts, extreme behavior is easy to identify. Providing extreme examples of toxicity doesn't further the conversation. My point is, quite simply, the dividing line between toxicity and trash talk is entirely subjective. Not the extremes, the dividing line. When you combine that with a vague "harassment is only harassment when CS says so" policy it's a dangerous situation when enforced. There are "some things" people say that are universally considered toxic, but it's all subjective after that.

 

Again, I consider toxicity to be those things that universally cross the line of what's non-subjectively considered inappropriate behavior, as in those two examples I had provided - players who are intentionally trying to be as offensive and malicious as possible. Trash talk is not one of those things because what's subjectively offensive to one person may not be offensive to another, and, it's usually not premeditated. As I'm sure you know as well as I do, trash talk is more often just heat of the moment frustration talking. So I'm not sure why we are going around and around on this point. My issue with enforcement isn't that they aren't applying the policy to every single bump or bruise inflicted on another player, but that they aren't being consistent, or swift, or transparent, or harsh enough (when warranted) which completely undermines its credibility as a deterrent.

 

The harassment policy needs to be reworked to address behaviors, not specific words, not perpetually offended groups. It needs to have solid definitions for those behaviors, and clearly defined punishments for those behaviors. That way CS can do it's job, be transparent, and above all be fair and reasonable to it's player base.

 

I don't disagree with this, as long as effective enforcement goes hand in hand with those changes.

Edited November 21, 2018 by Mournblood

[Rion_Starkiller]

Why is this thread still going?

 

Use the ignore feature and move on. Or better yet, turn off chat entirely, then go bury your head in the sand.

[merovejec]

Why is this thread still going?

 

Use the ignore feature and move on. Or better yet, turn off chat entirely, then go bury your head in the sand.

 

I think its still going cause its a real issue

[EmanoWanga]

Why is this thread still going?

 

Use the ignore feature and move on. Or better yet, turn off chat entirely, then go bury your head in the sand.

 

The thread is apparently still going (and I am glad that its being discussed) because it is a real issue in the game. As I wrote before I have been ignoring people over and over, but they just keep on appearing. There is no end to it.

 

It was already pointed up that even the "report" and "ignore" function is there to actually replace moderation as the Devs move the control mechanism to players themselves, who actually pay to play the game. That is not very optimal.

 

However, I have to say that recently the insults went a bit down and I have seen a few players in ranked this week using only /me cause they were chat banned. So maybe we are getting somewhere.

[Rion_Starkiller]

We do NOT want in-game moderation. If you think a moderating police force is the solution, you are out of your mind. BWA isn't the babysitter. The playground doesn't have an adult.

 

Welcome to the real world where a-holes exist, and you have to learn how to deal with them. My suggestion would be to form a gentleman's agreement amongst yourselves.

 

FYI, before anyone assumes I use the word "autism" -- I have never. "Baddie" is my go-to word when I'm frustrated with another player.

Edited November 21, 2018 by Rion_Starkiller

[LD_Little_Dragon]

Why is this thread still going?

 

Use the ignore feature and move on. Or better yet, turn off chat entirely, then go bury your head in the sand.

The ignore feature doesn't do anything thing to fix the overall problem, which is a lack of empathy and courtesy becoming acceptable in internet culture.

 

I don't particularly want in-game moderation since what is acceptable is very subjective, but I do want players as a whole to be less accepting when people are extremely rude and obnoxious. Currently you get more people joining in and goading the offensive people in chat on then you do trying to shut them down.

 

Ignore helps you as an individual, but does nothing for the other players in the game who are still reading those highly obnoxious slurs in general chat and getting the impression that there's nothing wrong with saying them.

 

I'm old, I still think of people behind the screen as being people. Which means what I say in chat is no worse than what I would say in any other public place. General chat is not a private party, it is a crowded mall.

[Rafiknoll]

Welcome to the real world where a-holes exist, and you have to learn how to deal with them. My suggestion would be to form a gentleman's agreement amongst yourselves.

 

No, in the real world there are consequences for being an a-hole, ranging from merely being disliked by most locals (with no ability to switch identity and start anew) to actually getting fined with real money for "mere" name calling (for example: calling someone a Nazi can already make you part with week's wage in several places).

 

In this aspect, the internet is way ahead of the real world in social degradation. I am certain we all prefer the "internet police" would start taking this kind of stuff seriously rather than the IRL social police give up on it as well...

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Problem with people today is? They are out of touch with others, most of their relationships are online through social media. After a few years of this lack of Human contact on a daily basis and that causes one to become Desensitize to every day issues of others which eventually gets so bad these people also lose their empathy. While the younger people never had a chance to develop their empathetic side. Do to they have been desensitized from the time their parents put a ipad in there hand to babysit them, so they can do what ever with out having to know where their kids are at, all the time.

 

Now a few years later those kids are now tweens and teens and are playing online games and they feel 10 feet tall and bullet proof and they will say what ever is on their minds, no matter who their words may offend or hurt. So when they get mad cause they want to blame you for losing a pvp match, when with out a shadow of a doubt it was them that loss the match. They call you, Retard, or remember this old one from just a few years ago, Your Gay, or whats your problem, you got autism? you're a spaz! ok that last one is an real oldie. Then the classic insults, Moron, idiot, dumb@&^, Bluh bluh bluh! They do that cause they cant see you, they dont know you and they can careless if you really had Autism or not. Because they never lived life in the real world, around real people with real problems that they could develop an empathetic bone in their body, so they can feel sadness or happiness exct. for some one other then their selves. Instead of feeling Superior over every one.

 

My advice is? Take those types with a grain of salt. Realize they wasn't raised properly with the same kind of love and understanding that you may had. Just turn away from them, Perhaps feel sorry for them, (Empathy) and go on your way. Try to spread the good word (what ever that may be to you) Then let that slide on by.

Cause remember in the immortal word of the Late Great Stan Lee. " Excelsior "

that word enlightens me every day, reminds me to look Upward & Beyond, so i can see how i can improve on making my self a better person then what i was yesterday. I like to think i was a Damn good Person Yesterday. Now i'll be even better one today.

 

.

 

And in the immortal words of Socrates......

 

"I drank what??"

 

 

-----

Joking aside, your post was an excellent write up and I think you raised some valid points.

 

Gotta love smart people.

[DavidAtkinson]

Problem with people today is? They are out of touch with others, most of their relationships are online through social media. After a few years of this lack of Human contact on a daily basis and that causes one to become Desensitize to every day issues of others which eventually gets so bad these people also lose their empathy. While the younger people never had a chance to develop their empathetic side. Do to they have been desensitized from the time their parents put a ipad in there hand to babysit them, so they can do what ever with out having to know where their kids are at, all the time.

 

Now a few years later those kids are now tweens and teens and are playing online games and they feel 10 feet tall and bullet proof and they will say what ever is on their minds, no matter who their words may offend or hurt. So when they get mad cause they want to blame you for losing a pvp match, when with out a shadow of a doubt it was them that loss the match. They call you, Retard, or remember this old one from just a few years ago, Your Gay, or whats your problem, you got autism? you're a spaz! ok that last one is an real oldie. Then the classic insults, Moron, idiot, dumb@&^, Bluh bluh bluh! They do that cause they cant see you, they dont know you and they can careless if you really had Autism or not. Because they never lived life in the real world, around real people with real problems that they could develop an empathetic bone in their body, so they can feel sadness or happiness exct. for some one other then their selves. Instead of feeling Superior over every one.

 

My advice is? Take those types with a grain of salt. Realize they wasn't raised properly with the same kind of love and understanding that you may had. Just turn away from them, Perhaps feel sorry for them, (Empathy) and go on your way. Try to spread the good word (what ever that may be to you) Then let that slide on by.

 

Cause remember in the immortal word of the Late Great Stan Lee. " Excelsior "

that word enlightens me every day, reminds me to look Upward & Beyond, so i can see how i can improve on making my self a better person then what i was yesterday. I like to think i was a Damn good Person Yesterday. Now i'll be even better one today.

 

Life is to short for all the animosity and trivial bickering, Live life to the fullest and share it with every one you can.

Take Care & Be Well......

 

Happy Thanksgiving

 

Nuff Said........

 

That was an epic read man.. thank you.

 

Sadly people like you are in the minority in this game.

 

I am weak... if people insult me.. bothers me. I am sensitive.. can't do anything about it. I am allergic to hate in real life.. and I can't seem to get over it in this game also. Too much hate for what ? I've been a door to door salesman once a long time ago and I've stepped into people's private lives on a daily basis for like 2 years and I've seen a loot of things. People that are poor or rich.. suffering.. lonely..depressed, helpless... sick and the list can go on.

 

As you have pointed out, these kids calling names hiding behind computer screens and talking trash have no idea how to properly interact /communicate with a real human being and are totally blind... to the real problems some people face in the real life.

 

So my dear pixel macho players.... Losing a PVP game IS NOT the biggest problem in life.

[Sith-Viscera]

And in the immortal words of Socrates......

 

"I drank what??"

 

 

-----

Joking aside, your post was an excellent write up and I think you raised some valid points.

 

Gotta love smart people.

 

 

"I drank what??"

What is (Hemlock), Alex.....

Yup, That will clean the old pipes out. lol

 

All Joking aside...

I wasn't really going for the grammar points or anything like that, i was just trying to get, i hope a, Positive Message out there. Also don't know how Excellent it was? I mean, i am no philosopher or a Psychiatrist, not even a life coach (lol life coach) or anything. I am just someone who has lived enough. But if those valid points you'd mentioned that i made, helps just one, then alright, not bad.

 

And on the smart thing. I will reserve a verdict on that, until i lived a longer life and look back upon it, and see just how many Smart decisions i did make, or didn't?

 

Take Care & Be Well.......

Happy Thanksgiving....................

[Totemdancer]

Problem with people today is? They are out of touch with others, most of their relationships are online through social media. After a few years of this lack of Human contact on a daily basis and that causes one to become Desensitize to every day issues of others which eventually gets so bad these people also lose their empathy. While the younger people never had a chance to develop their empathetic side. Do to they have been desensitized from the time their parents put a ipad in there hand to babysit them, so they can do what ever with out having to know where their kids are at, all the time.

 

Now a few years later those kids are now tweens and teens and are playing online games and they feel 10 feet tall and bullet proof and they will say what ever is on their minds, no matter who their words may offend or hurt. So when they get mad cause they want to blame you for losing a pvp match, when with out a shadow of a doubt it was them that loss the match. They call you, Retard, or remember this old one from just a few years ago, Your Gay, or whats your problem, you got autism? you're a spaz! ok that last one is an real oldie. Then the classic insults, Moron, idiot, dumb@&^, Bluh bluh bluh! They do that cause they cant see you, they dont know you and they can careless if you really had Autism or not. Because they never lived life in the real world, around real people with real problems that they could develop an empathetic bone in their body, so they can feel sadness or happiness exct. for some one other then their selves. Instead of feeling Superior over every one.

 

My advice is? Take those types with a grain of salt. Realize they wasn't raised properly with the same kind of love and understanding that you may had. Just turn away from them, Perhaps feel sorry for them, (Empathy) and go on your way. Try to spread the good word (what ever that may be to you) Then let that slide on by.

 

Cause remember in the immortal word of the Late Great Stan Lee. " Excelsior "

that word enlightens me every day, reminds me to look Upward & Beyond, so i can see how i can improve on making my self a better person then what i was yesterday. I like to think i was a Damn good Person Yesterday. Now i'll be even better one today.

 

Life is to short for all the animosity and trivial bickering, Live life to the fullest and share it with every one you can.

Take Care & Be Well......

 

Happy Thanksgiving

 

Nuff Said........

 

As Grim said, it’s a good post.

[Sith-Viscera]

That was an epic read man.. thank you.

 

Sadly people like you are in the minority in this game.

 

I am weak... if people insult me.. bothers me. I am sensitive.. can't do anything about it. I am allergic to hate in real life.. and I can't seem to get over it in this game also. Too much hate for what ? I've been a door to door salesman once a long time ago and I've stepped into people's private lives on a daily basis for like 2 years and I've seen a loot of things. People that are poor or rich.. suffering.. lonely..depressed, helpless... sick and the list can go on.

 

As you have pointed out, these kids calling names hiding behind computer screens and talking trash have no idea how to properly interact /communicate with a real human being and are totally blind... to the real problems some people face in the real life.

 

So my dear pixel macho players.... Losing a PVP game IS NOT the biggest problem in life.

 

"it isn't the biggest problem in life"

Indeed.......

Take Care & Be Well..........

Happy Thanksgiving......

[AlrikFassbauer]

Problem with people today is? They are out of touch with others, most of their relationships are online through social media.

 

It began much earlier, too.

 

Have you watched the Pixar movie "Cars" ? Apart from its very obvious "rtacing theme", there is an underlying, very sad story there : People use motorcar highways for faster travel - and because of that, they just don't see the beautiful rural landscape anymore. And because of that, small villages die out ...

 

I was thinking on that theme, story, and I realized that there were so many more inns, roadhouses, taverns out there in the countryside. Yes, even in more rural towns.

Why did they go away ? Because of fast travel. In earlier times, people were travelling by foot. They were travelling only let's say 10 - 30 kilometres or miles per day. Then they had to sit down, sleep somewhere because the night came at one point as well. Then they were going onto roadhouses, and sleep there. And the next day they could go out and visit a few lovely places out there, too.

 

Fast travel killed all of that. People want to zap from a to b in the shortest possible time. They just don't have eyes anymore for the beautiful landscape - and they don't get in touch with locals anymore

 

This fast travel has also killed a lot of social interaction between villages, between towns. People xdon't learn some things anymore. And I can reassure you that what I have learned when being with my grandparents in the countryside was a LOT different from what I've learned in town. So much different.

 

What we see here, is kind of ... us becoming Aliens. Socializing in an no-touch kind of way.

RThis can be interesting, because there are so many great people out there one might never actually meet. But it's also a bit difficult, because one unlearns how to read and react to face expression, gesture expression and the linke.

 

One never learns what people frown upon, because there is no facial expression anymore, for example.

 

And because we never learn that, we often act in an ... antisocial way.

Edited November 29, 2018 by AlrikFassbauer

[ALaggyGrunt]

The people spewing racist bile all over chat probably include literal Nazis. Their objectives include making everyone think they're everywhere, making Hitler seem like not such a bad guy, and getting people to actually join militias.

 

And they're really good at controlling chat.

[Stellarcrusade]

'Words are, in my not-so-humble opinion, our most inexhaustible source of magic. Capable of both inflicting injury, and remedying it.'

 

Professor Albus Dumbledore

(JK Rowling)

 

To continue this analogy, they can only injure you if you let them. Choosing not to let them bother you is like casting a spell of "I dont give a sheeet what you think.". This protection spell is very effective against arrse-hats.

[Rafiknoll]

The people spewing racist bile all over chat probably include literal Nazis. Their objectives include making everyone think they're everywhere, making Hitler seem like not such a bad guy, and getting people to actually join militias.

 

And they're really good at controlling chat.

 

One more perfect reason to stop the apathy and gun down any mention of such subjects.

 

People seem to forget that behind the not real internet there are real players, and it is enough that one of the readers take the internet seriously enough to cause real damage.

Can anyone here guarantee toxicity or any other type of chat never ever made any player REALLY hurt others, or himself? Only a few effects the "not real" internet can cause include assault, depression, murder, divorce, and suicide, and now we see Nazism which is probably one of the worst REAL human crimes ever.

Hopefully, a few incidents like this and online moderation will become mandatory

[merovejec]

My advice is? Take those types with a grain of salt. Realize they wasn't raised properly with the same kind of love and understanding that you may had. Just turn away from them, Perhaps feel sorry for them, (Empathy) and go on your way. Try to spread the good word (what ever that may be to you) Then let that slide on by.

 

Still is sad thought. What this world is heading to. You are totally right in your post, I can really imagine what the people are like, but the stupid thing is that they will not change, as the conditions for them to "come back to reality" are not there. When I was young we had a lot of fights on the streets, cause we were spending time only outside, not sitting behind a PC, ipad etc. So these "modern kids" are too out of touch of reality.

 

Yes, feeling sorry for them is one thing, but being able to enjoy the game is another. Well, at least I know I am raising my kids properly

[EmanoWanga]

Use the ignore feature and move on. Or better yet, turn off chat entirely, then go bury your head in the sand.

 

So this is really it? I mean do I really have to be the one who goes? I pay for a game and I play it to have fun. Someone else is also paying for the game but he spends his time being mean to other people. They even go above and beyond the limits and harass others. So is that you answer? If I don't like it I should leave? Why? Why wont that other person leave instead? Why is he entitled to stay for being and a** and I have to turn off chat, ignore people or even leave the game?

 

In the real world if you find someone offending you even threatening etc you call the police, layer etc and they handle it. They deal with the person, put him to prison, fine him what ever. You pay taxes, police protects you. So I do not get why I have to be the one doing the compromises here.

Edited December 6, 2018 by EmanoWanga