The constant mentioning of Autism in PVP

[merovejec]

I mean, whatever the means are given to do good or bad, some will use it for good and some will use it for bad. This is not only true about the internet but literally any new advancement ever (Some would say using computers to research was "good" while making video games that simulate fighting and killing is "bad", for example ). The smartphones added more possibilities for evil as well (it is by far more easy to catch a bad video of someone and ruining him with it, for example) and whatever comes after the smartphone will add more possibilities, more conveniences, and obviously, more evils, and there is never the possibility to prevent these.

 

Sure all things can be used for evil, but if you do have control over it then you can effectively limit it. That is what moderation is for and they need to react to harrasment reports etc. thats all I would ask of them.

 

I reported harassment on some extremely nazi conversations and the players disappeared within 3 days (tested via friendlist), everything is reactive. You can only punish someone for writing abuse after he did so.

 

That is exactly the thing. It servers as a tool to lecture the people. I did something bad, was reported, now I cant play, so I shouldn't do it again. Its simple. Sadly moderators sometimes have to do the jobs of the parents.

 

As for the bans, I really do not have the time and interrest to check if people I have reported actually got banned, so I really do not monitor that. I just file the report and hope it gets the necessary attention.

 

The one and the only solution is to limit and monitor the exposure of the young ones to such "vulnerable" entities such as the internet, social media and whatever else there is that could be a portal for such behaviors to pour from, until they are matured enough so you know they would not be affected. In the case of the Mourn with his daughter, he could close his chat. If there was no such option, he would have to either not play or not let her watch him play (just as I hope nobody here lets his kid watch gore or "18+" content when they are young).

 

Its not about limiting the kids, but about how you raise them. If you raise them well and fully explain everything then its all fine. They need to experience it to know how it is. Its hard to get this from just talking. However, there is A LOT more to it, I dont wanna blame any people in the game or so, just explaining that if a person is treated well, he has no need for being "mean" to other people. The world is sadly not perfect and there are people who vent their anger in the game, but that should be hindered in order not to rob the other players of their fun and game experience.

[Mournblood]

Let’s be honest here: if you’re easily offended then the internet is not for you.

 

That’s just the way it is now.

 

If you can’t ignore it then you’ll have to go on your way.

 

I get what you're trying to say, albeit in a fairly insensitive way, that you need to have a thick skin on the internet. But I don't think that's the appropriate message here, because you can't just shrug if off as players being easily offended. The joke I alluded to in my example was made by a particularly infamous troll on SS who was named after the personification of fear in Greek mythology (trying to avoid naming & shaming). The joke he made was that the Jews were slow runners which is why so many were captured during the Holocaust, and it went on from there as dozens or so other wannabe trolls started making follow-up jokes to try and one-up the aforementioned troll so that they could sound cool. I immediately reported it and placed him on Ignore, but I wasn't about to sit there and ignore/report the dozens more that followed him. It was a sad example of human depravity on the internet. Was it his intention to get a reaction from players? Of course it was. The guy needs some serious professional help, or an epic beating. I didn't give him the satisfaction of an in-game reaction, but for very personal reasons, I was extremely angry about it nonetheless. I can blow off players sending me hate messages calling me every name or vulgarity in the profanity thesaurus (which happens a lot when you PvP a lot), but that example goes far beyond being easily offended on the internet. And it's not the only example I could give you, but it certainly makes the point.

 

As for simply shrugging your shoulders and basically saying. "suck it up", that's part of the problem.

 

Inappropriate player behavior, as exampled in the OP, is only encouraged and emboldened through sympathy fatigue, complacency, de-sensitivity, apathy, and lack of deterrence. The first four are player problems, but the last is a developer problem. Yes, we have Ignore and Report features, but those have their limitations. Players who's sole purpose it is to troll the game and the players in it are rotating alts, and possibly accounts, in order to continue their campaign. You ignore and report one, you'd possibly see it gone after a couple weeks or so, but then they are right back on another. In the case of the notorious troll I referred to above, he was on an alt (or another account) a couple of weeks later, trolling along as if nothing happened. Beyond Bioware's ToS violation process, which is laughably lenient and protracted where trolling is concerned, there are no real consequences or meaningful deterrence. This is also what I was alluding to about how MMOs have changed over the last two decades in that studios are no longer willing to pay for in-game moderation. If there was in-game moderation like we used to have in games like EQ, there would be no environment for trolls to thrive and multiply in. Players wouldn't be forced to fill their Ignore lists, waste valuable game time submitting opaque reports, or resort to disabling entire chat channels in order to deal with a pervasive problem that is very clearly of the game studio's own making.

 

Why do we have laws? They provide deterrence for socially unacceptable behavior (which are also referred to as mores and folkways), ordered societal structure, and consequences for breaking them; but their purpose is first and foremost deterrence and deterrence works best when consequences are swift and certain. Without them, there would be anarchy. But laws alone aren't enough. What do you think would happen if there were no more police? We've seen it depicted in countless dystopian movies. The only difference in an MMO is that while we do have "laws" in the forms of the EULA or ToS, there is no police presence. Sure, they have staff who's job it is to do ToS enforcement, but those are like filing stolen property reports - there's a huge backlog, eventually they'll get to it, and you likely won't see the perpetrator caught or punished. It's too out of sight and too out of mind for anyone to care about the consequences. When you see the police running speed traps on the highway, do you speed up or slow down? Similarly, the only people who care about abiding by applicable gun laws are the ones who typically aren't planning on doing anything illegal with one in the first place. Conversely, do you think a player who circumvented the character name filter to name their toon "Eatmyazz" cared about what's written in the ToS before they did that? When trolls joke about sexually abusing women with impunity in General chat, do you think they care if anyone reports them for it? It's all related behavior.

 

So yes, players like me are tired of dealing with players who feel that internet anonymity gives them license to act like rabid animals. And I also expect more responsibility from the game studio, instead of the business practice of displacing that to the player. I'm not alone in that sentiment. And as social mores continue to erode in online gaming, perhaps in another decade, being thick skinned on the internet isn't going to be sufficient to insulate you from the inevitable saturation of toxicity and depravity if it continues unabated.

Edited November 19, 2018 by Mournblood

[Rafiknoll]

Its not about limiting the kids, but about how you raise them. If you raise them well and fully explain everything then its all fine. They need to experience it to know how it is. Its hard to get this from just talking. However, there is A LOT more to it, I dont wanna blame any people in the game or so, just explaining that if a person is treated well, he has no need for being "mean" to other people. The world is sadly not perfect and there are people who vent their anger in the game, but that should be hindered in order not to rob the other players of their fun and game experience.

 

Of course. I wasn't trying in that one paragraph to write the guide "how to raise non-insufferable kids that will not behave terribly". Sadly not enough books have been written about such things and the true "perpetrators" (which are the parents of these kids) are not those who are going to read this or care about this.

What I meant is: on top of everything already involved in raising kids properly, when you come across a place contaminated by the misbehaving people and the kid is too young to be unaffected, the solution is to keep them away.

[Severith]

There's an episode of "Ghost in the Shell" where the think tanks talk about the offensive use of the word "cyborg". Since so many people in that setting used cybernetics, the perfectly fine, normal word had devolved into some sort of insult. In the real world, we'll probably see the term cyborg being on the same level as the "r" word in the next 20-30 years.

 

The "R" word began as a simple, medical definition. Eventually of course, it became an insult, and we switched to Autism. Well, same thing is happening. It's becoming an insult, and it's definition as an insult will overwrite it's medical definition, as what happened with the "R" word.

 

So pick whatever word you want to be used do describe yourself, or your loved ones, or whomever is suffering from mental issues that inhibit learning. Just recognize that the pattern of acceptable words becoming unacceptable is unavoidable, and that both the internet and the push to make words unacceptable in context strengthens that cycle.

 

Whatever word society chooses, it's going to be used as an insult on the internet. Change only occurs when it's congruent with societal momentum, not against it.

[Raansu]

Ignore is just for one toon, PVPers have many toons, they play on and you would just spend your evening ignoring people, then you get them on team and dont see their chat and dont know the tactics for the ranked match etc, its just stupid.

 

Takes two seconds to right click and ignore. Then again, I rarely use the feature because I just don't pay attention to chat that much. People care way too much about what random people in a chat say.

 

Its just sad that I have to leave such a good game because of that!.

 

Talk about childish. You're going to leave a game that you find entertaining because you are unable to ignore what some nobody in general chat says? Get over yourself.

 

.

If you got kids the experiment is easy, give them a PC or ipad and then take it away, most react a bit violently but its really minor. These reactions grow with the addiction. Those are the cases where people jump out of the windows when lose something important in the game (but thats an extreme example). The thing is that its shorterm reactions, you feel the anger only a few moments before you come to your senses. That is what I am sad about in the game that people just keep going on with their insults.

 

This is a bunch of hogwash. If you take anything away from a kid and its something they like they are going to have a temper tantrum. That's a kid being a kid.

[EmanoWanga]

Takes two seconds to right click and ignore. Then again, I rarely use the feature because I just don't pay attention to chat that much. People care way too much about what random people in a chat say.

 

Talk about childish. You're going to leave a game that you find entertaining because you are unable to ignore what some nobody in general chat says? Get over yourself.

 

I have been reporting and ignoring people a few years now. After you have done it for so long you realize that there is no stopping it and people just keep on coming and coming. So what do you do? You simply resign.

 

I have played WoW for years and rarely encountered such player behavior.

 

 

This is a bunch of hogwash. If you take anything away from a kid and its something they like they are going to have a temper tantrum. That's a kid being a kid.

 

Yes, sure, but the reaction with electronic equipment such as ipads, playstation etc creates a much bigger aggressive reaction. I mean its my job to work with kids, I have been witness to this for decades so I do know a lot about it.

[Raansu]

After you have done it for so long you realize that there is no stopping it and people just keep on coming and coming. So what do you do? You simply resign.

 

What do you do? You ignore it....I'll never understand why people get bothered by what someone says online.

[Desplain]

I'm playing on a German server and to be honest here are also some guys who

think insulting is funny.

 

There is no place for racism, antisemitism and using disabilities for insulting others in this game.

 

Some Germans like to use name-calling like Spako or Mongo which makes me sick.

 

Spako: People who are suffering from spasticity

 

Mongo: People who are suffering from Down Syndrome

 

We are here for having fun playing a game and not to insult others.

Edited November 14, 2018 by Desplain

[Totemdancer]

When we had our Aussie servers we had one or two idiots, but they usually got shouted down if they started any racism or really offensive stuff. I think the most offensive it ever got was when the Kiwis and Aussies would trade sheep F’ing insults, which is a cultural thing we both do and it’s only fun. No one would ever take offence to it.

 

Then our servers got shut down and we got merged with the US, let me tell you, it was a massive culture shock. None of us could believe the crap that was being spoken and the derogatory insults. The absolute trolling and baiting was/is appalling by Aussie/Kiwi standards.

 

Don’t get me wrong, Aussies and Kiwis like a bit of banter and rivalry and we talk a bit of smack, but nothing prepared us for what the US servers were like. People I know actually quit the game when we moved and not all of it was because of the extra lag. A lot of it had to do with the changed atmosphere and culture in the game. It went from light hearted fun to overly critical behaviour.

 

Those of us who stayed had to grow a thick skin pretty quick.

 

Also each server was different. Some servers were worse than others. I know when PoT5 died and they migrated to the west coast, the bad attitude and behaviour increased significantly and got more toxic over night,

I don’t know if that was an east coast thing or an east coast pvp thing, I do know it wasn’t that bad on Bastion when I first went there and it certainly wasn’t on Harbinger. When Bastion started to die and the rest of them came to Harbinger, it turned into a cesspool of toxicity, especially in pvp (compared to how it had been).

 

Im pretty sure if Harbinger had been like that when we first merged from Australia, I wouldn’t have stayed and I’m sure more Aussies/Kiwis would have left.

 

I’ve honestly never played a game with such bad toxicity as swtor. I know WoW still doesn’t have it to this day.

The only recourse if your sensibilities are too delicate is to turn gen, say, yell and probably pvp chat off. Then use ignore on anyone offensive who whispers you.

[Raansu]

 

I’ve honestly never played a game with such bad toxicity as swtor. I know WoW still doesn’t have it to this day.

The only recourse if your sensibilities are too delicate is to turn gen, say, yell and probably pvp chat off. Then use ignore on anyone offensive who whispers you.

 

Overwatch and WoW are just as bad.....CoD, don't get me started. Plenty of games with pvp focus are just as bad or way worse.

[Severith]

Honestly, they just need to get an account wide ignore function. Simply the idea of it being there, and having all of their characters ignored would probably be enough to curtail most bad behaviors.

 

That being said, try watching a few Rust pvp videos. SWTOR pvp toxicity is pretty mild on the mmo pvp spectrum, and I'll give ya a hot take:

 

Toxicity, to a certain extent, is actually good for pvp and the community.

 

Apathy of other players is probably the biggest factor in what drags down the fun level for people in pvp. When the people on your team don't care about winning or losing, it replaces the tension with just a depressive sort of frustration. A little bit of toxicity, aimed at the people who merit it, cultivates a pvp community that takes a measure of responsibility to their fellow players.

 

The squeaky wheel gets the kick. That's a good thing, as long as the kick doesn't break the wheel.

[bluehufsa]

Toxicity, to a certain extent, is actually good for pvp and the community.

 

Sorry,but i disagree. Mocking someone because his son is Autistic is not OK, not in a game, not in real life, nowhere. It does not benefit the game because the targeted person could drop the subscription at any time and, depending on how many friends they have, a lot of people could drop their subscriptions too as a solidarity act. Losing money is never good and does not help anyone in our given situation.

[Rion_Starkiller]

Maybe they're actually saying "artistic" and you are misreading?

[Totemdancer]

Overwatch and WoW are just as bad.....CoD, don't get me started. Plenty of games with pvp focus are just as bad or way worse.

 

I’ve never had this problem in WoW when I played it.

[Wimbleton]

It wasn’t bad at first but later it lost all sense of community and started doing mergers and stuff. Now it’s horrible.

[Severith]

Sorry,but i disagree. Mocking someone because his son is Autistic is not OK, not in a game, not in real life, nowhere. It does not benefit the game because the targeted person could drop the subscription at any time and, depending on how many friends they have, a lot of people could drop their subscriptions too as a solidarity act. Losing money is never good and does not help anyone in our given situation.

 

No one is mocking someone because they're/ their son is autistic. The fact that someone can't separate that perception from the trash talk that is inevitably going to occur in pvp means that they're not stable/healthy enough to handle competitive interactions.

 

You'll lose more subs by creating a culture/environment where people have to walk on eggshells when they're supposed to be having fun and relaxing. Like I said in my post before, when behaviors in pvp disrupt people's ability to have fun in pvp, some toxicity is merited, especially since that's usually the only repercussion the disruptive player is going to experience.

[Totemdancer]

No one is mocking someone because they're/ their son is autistic. The fact that someone can't separate that perception from the trash talk that is inevitably going to occur in pvp means that they're not stable/healthy enough to handle competitive interactions.

 

You'll lose more subs by creating a culture/environment where people have to walk on eggshells when they're supposed to be having fun and relaxing. Like I said in my post before, when behaviors in pvp disrupt people's ability to have fun in pvp, some toxicity is merited, especially since that's usually the only repercussion the disruptive player is going to experience.

 

There does need to be some sort of boundary. What that boundary should be will be different for every person. What’s not offensive to you, will be for others.

Banter, sledging and rivalry doesn’t need to delve into toxicity, THERE IS NO NEED FOR IT.

You don’t see it in professional sports or eSports and they are highly competitive. If they can have rules or restrain themselves, then it’s not to much to ask for people to behave like human beings and not rampaging Neanderthals with no language skills to express themselves.

It’s also not relaxing and fun being bombarded in chat with extremely offensive things.

There has to be line that shouldn’t be crossed and if it is, then there should be repercussions.

There are things that shouldn’t be discussed like R-pe or Autism or S-xual abuse or child abuse, I’ve seen all of those things said in pvp.

If Bioware can edit out specific swear words with the adult filter, why can’t they edit out others to do with those topics?

Edited November 16, 2018 by Totemdancer

[Raansu]

I’ve never had this problem in WoW when I played it.

 

Its pretty bad in dungeon finder. PvP can be worse most of the time. WoW is still as toxic as ever.

[Totemdancer]

Its pretty bad in dungeon finder. PvP can be worse most of the time. WoW is still as toxic as ever.

 

That’s sad to hear. I always liked how chilled it was when I played.

[Severith]

There does need to be some sort of boundary. What that boundary should be will be different for every person. What’s not offer you, will be for others.

Banter, sledging and rivalry doesn’t need to delve into toxicity, THERE IS NO NEED FOR IT.

You don’t see it in professional sports or eSports and they are highly competitive. If they can have rules or restrain themselves, then it’s not to much to ask for people to behave like human beings and not rampaging Neanderthals with no language skills to express themselves.

It’s also not relaxing and fun being bombarded in chat with extremely offensive things.

There has to be line that shouldn’t be crossed and if it is, then there should be repercussions.

There are things that shouldn’t be discussed like R-pe or Autism or S-xual abuse or child abuse, I’ve seen all of those things said in pvp.

If Bioware can edit out specific swear words with the adult filter, why can’t they edit out others to do with those topics?

 

I agree that there should be boundaries. What I found alarming in this thread, was indications that all "toxicity" was bad, which is dangerously vague and subjective. When someone who's guarding a node doesn't call out for help until after they're dead, is it "toxic" to call them out on it? Is it offensive? When you're on the same team as the guy who went AFK last game, should you take another loss and not say anything at all out of fear they're sensitive? Same situation with the guy ruining your solo ranked games by intentionally losing?

 

It's all opinions at that point, and what people choose to get offended at.

 

I don't advocate the use of the word autism to denounce people in pvp, and certainly not the R-word. But it's a slippery slope when you start adding more and more words that aren't acceptable to use. You're giving that word more power than it had before, and you're discouraging people from speaking up when there is legitimate reasons to be angry at a person for wasting their time and ruining the match.

 

If you remove or restrict too much a player's ability to offend people you've effectively ruined the only method of the pvp community policing itself. Bioware doesn't care about harassment as much as it should, just like it doesn't care about players ruining pvp either.

 

I think both sides of the issue would be much better off if account names were tagged to character names like in other mmos. Behaviors need to have social consequences when the devs leave it up to the community to fix them. Then of course, account wide ignore, which is crazy not to have in an mmo.

 

(To Address one of your side points:

 

Competitive E-sports at major events don't have that sort of toxicity, or that sort of apathy either. That's because they're there to win, they have thousands of people watching their every move, and they're hoping for companies to sponser them. But if you go down a few levels from there, in the same exact game, those are the games with vastly more severe toxicity than SWTOR will ever have. DOTA and LOL are famously some of the most toxic internet communities, but that doesn't factor in to the televised tournaments.)

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Until technology has advanced to a level that allows being able to punch people over the internet it will never change.

 

I can't wait.

 

This is why the Amish people are the way they are. It's why they shun technology.

 

I don't know how they can live without P-XXX. That must suck.

Edited November 16, 2018 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[Totemdancer]

I agree that there should be boundaries. What I found alarming in this thread, was indications that all "toxicity" was bad, which is dangerously vague and subjective. When someone who's guarding a node doesn't call out for help until after they're dead, is it "toxic" to call them out on it? Is it offensive? When you're on the same team as the guy who went AFK last game, should you take another loss and not say anything at all out of fear they're sensitive? Same situation with the guy ruining your solo ranked games by intentionally losing?

 

It's all opinions at that point, and what people choose to get offended at.

 

I don't advocate the use of the word autism to denounce people in pvp, and certainly not the R-word. But it's a slippery slope when you start adding more and more words that aren't acceptable to use. You're giving that word more power than it had before, and you're discouraging people from speaking up when there is legitimate reasons to be angry at a person for wasting their time and ruining the match.

 

If you remove or restrict too much a player's ability to offend people you've effectively ruined the only method of the pvp community policing itself. Bioware doesn't care about harassment as much as it should, just like it doesn't care about players ruining pvp either.

 

I think both sides of the issue would be much better off if account names were tagged to character names like in other mmos. Behaviors need to have social consequences when the devs leave it up to the community to fix them. Then of course, account wide ignore, which is crazy not to have in an mmo.

 

(To Address one of your side points:

 

Competitive E-sports at major events don't have that sort of toxicity, or that sort of apathy either. That's because they're there to win, they have thousands of people watching their every move, and they're hoping for companies to sponser them. But if you go down a few levels from there, in the same exact game, those are the games with vastly more severe toxicity than SWTOR will ever have. DOTA and LOL are famously some of the most toxic internet communities, but that doesn't factor in to the televised tournaments.)

 

I think maybe people don’t understand the what the meaning of toxic is and sledging/banter.

You can also call someone an idiot for not calling out incs and it not be toxic. It becomes toxic when you start referring to that person in derogatory terms like autistic.

I think that’s the problem with the internet and younger generations that have only been brought up in the “net age”. Older people aren’t immune to being toxic, but I find they are less toxic when calling someone out when they do the wrong thing.

 

The word toxic gets thrown around too much for any sort of banter, even the most mundane. People seem to be confused about what toxicity really is.

As an example : Ive been accused of being toxic because I repeatedly told a guy to call incs when he saw them coming, not after he’s dead. And I’ve been called toxic for just giving basic directions or tactics to a team at the start or during the match because they have no idea what they are doing.

Both times I was calm and respectful and at no time was anything I said toxic.

 

As for the pvp community policing itself, I think the last 7 years shows that it can’t. If anything it’s gotten worse.

 

Bioware do need to wear a portion of blame for the culture, apathy and toxicity that does exist in the game. Many of their policies and implementation of game content have made it worse than it needs to be.

ie, adding silly incentives to get people into pvp for the sole purpose to farm something that has nothing to do with pvp. Those people aren’t there to try or to win. They just want the reward for being in the queue and staying till the match finishes. Lots have just afk’d over the years.

This causes lots of resentment from pvpers who want to win. But the pvp community has to wear some of the blame with that sort of attitude too.

How many matches have we been in when some “ranked” super star (in their own mind) says “it’s only regs, who cares”. Obviously the pvpers who prefer objective pvp and winning care. Which means those dedicated pvp players who don’t play to win, even though they are more than capable, are also contributing to the resentment and fuels the toxicity. (They never learn or care that Death matching alone doesn’t win objective pvp). Casual pvpers and reward farmers see pvpers expressing that attitude and think “if pvpers feel that way, why should we care”.

 

I’ve no problem with having incentives to get people to try pvp, but I do have a problem with rewardingly them for not trying. Too many rewards are “given” for not trying to win. If those rewards those people want we’re tied to them trying to win, that would have greatly reduced a lot of tension in the game.

 

These extremely casual pvpers expect to get stuff for barely doing anything, so much so that they are violently against Bioware ever bringing back pvp gear or expertise. I’ve yet to come across dedicated pvpers from the 2.x - 4.x period who don’t want pvp gear back. All of the arguments against it are coming from new pvp players (who don’t understand) or those who want everything for doing nothing. Most only step into pvp occasionally or only do the daily/weekly and then don’t play pvp till the next week. They don’t play it because they love it, they play it because Bioware make them if they want their reward. Their apathy and self entitlement around the pvp part of the game is definitely an issue and why the quality is so poor these days.

[Totemdancer]

Until technology has advanced to a level that allows being able to punch people over the internet it will never change.

 

I can't wait.

 

Me either. I’m sure some of the little brats would be too scared to say most things to my face in RL. Especially if they ever saw me in my “other” work environment. LoL.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Me either. I’m sure some of the little brats would be too scared to say most things to my face in RL. Especially if they ever saw me in my “other” work environment. LoL.

 

 

Hey, TlT for tat right? [Pun intended]

[Totemdancer]

TlT for tat

 

LoL, you don’t know how close you are.

Edited November 16, 2018 by Totemdancer