252/258 Gearing System not viable for Casual/PvP players

[Totemdancer]

I don't think this is true. I am a heavy PVPer, do nothing else and I run through my UCs regularly gearing alts. I am not sitting on hoards of UC. Don't judge off the two PVP guys that literally said they only play one class and have hoards of UCs saved that other PVPers have hoards too. I could be wrong, but honestly I know of no PVPers that have hoards of UCs saved up, but can see how some would if they do not play alts and only focus on 1 toon.

 

100% agree.

I only pvp and I’ve only got 2000 UCs and not one of my Alts is 248 geared yet.

 

The only people I know that have hordes of UCs are ones that :

1. Only play one class or character or maybe two.

2. Live in the game

3. Were lucky with the CXP crate drops and didn’t need to spend many UCs

 

People with multiple classes or specs have a hard enough time just gearing those Alts. They don’t have a stock pile of UCs.

Edited October 17, 2018 by Totemdancer

[Totemdancer]

Overall analysis of it to me is that this really isn't a big issue in change. Its not that far from the original gearing system with crystals for pieces that the game launched with so I think folks are spreading doom and gloom for nada

 

If they go ahead with the system as it’s been announced, I guess we’ll see if my logic pans out or not. I hope I’m wrong, but I do t think so. Most of the things I’ve predicted since the game started have come true.

[kukumburr]

That is your choice. Others do not try to gear all their alts and as such are sitting on tens of thousands of UCs.

 

See... choices do have consequences.

 

Well yeah but it was a choice that had to be made with no information about how UC's would be used in the future. And I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that they don't balance the UC cost around the scrooge mcducks instead of the people with alts. Honestly I wouldn't be as worried about it if they hadn't literally said that the UC cost would be 'ludicrous' and was a bone thrown to the hoarders. That makes it sound like they don't intend for it to be a main gearing method.

[Mantlers]

This is really the one issue I have with your post. Many of us that PVE were basically forced into pvp to get crafting mats to make augments. While I understand the point you are making, and I agree with you. As a PVE person who chocked down a lot of pvp I did not want to do in order to get those mats now it is your turn to choke down content you do not want to do in order to get matts.

 

On a side note crafting the top tier of gear is dangerously close to pay to win. I could buy an insta 70, sell cartel packs on the GTN and then buy top tier gear without ever leaving fleet. Top tier gear should only be obtainable by playing the game and doing content. If you want to make 248 craftable I do not have an issue, but how it is now is uncomfortably close to pay to win.

 

Why do you think this is acceptable? In any game? It was a sub-par system implemented with arguable efficacy. You and many others were forced to participate in an aspect of the game you dislike, just to gear... you even use the words "chocked down".. how is this enjoyable and worth your subscriber money to spend your time like that?

 

Demand more from the game you love.

[ultimarb]

I did not read through all 8 pages but I have to points to say.

 

At first the "true" PVP Gamers can buy that new gear for UC. And every "true" PVP Gamer is actually sitting on a huge pile of UC.

 

The Second thing is that you're are talking about beeing killed by nim raiders with 258 crafted gear...

at first they are pve you're pvp. so the gear should not help them... (a bit offensive

 

second...you need 2 weeks for getting to hero reputation rank to unlock your full equipment with uc. in this 2 weeks the nim raiders have other things to do instead of going full 258 (no one is going full 258 out of crafting with this crafting prices) in regs to farm the "true" pvp gamers who will just have belt/bracers from first week of reputation cycle.

 

 

common be serious all together. you needed more time in 1.x 2.x 3.x to gear BiS than you'll need for 5.10...

You have TWO Months from now to get UC...

[Ylliarus]

How is the gearing unfair? You literally get multiple sources where to get this gear. Fact is, if you want the best gear in the game you have to work for it, this literally is the case in every single MMORPG. The best way to get the gear is doing Master Mode ops. If it were the only way I'd understand the frustration, but now you're literally moaning to get everything handed to you on a silver platter. Seriously, just stop complaining because what's happening on these forums is just crazy.

 

You want the gear? Go do Master Mode ops. Don't want to do that? Fine! There are alternative ways to get the gear. Do they take longer? Yes. Is that fair? Absolutely. Because those doing the Master Mode ops also have to work for it, it's only fair the others have to as well.

 

Seriously what do people want, a token that automatically completes all content in the game and gives you all the rewards? Maybe the token should even be free for all, so that you don't have to lift a finger in the game and get all the rewards.

 

EDIT: Sidenote, casual player here! In all my years on SWTOR I haven't done a single operations because it simply isn't my cup of tea. Maybe I'll do some story ops eventually, but what am I trying to say? I have full 248 gear atm, with set bonus and 240 Superior augments on all pieces. How did I get it? All the other sources we have for obtaining the best gear ingame. Did it take longer than doing the ops? Sure, it took a while longer, but that's only fair.

Edited October 17, 2018 by Ylliarus

[Kiesu]

Again, you're missing my point, which is that it isn't up to you to decide what I need in order to have a sense of achievement for my character. Obtaining highest-rating gear may be part of how a person defines their end-game, along with all the other things they do. Like I said in my first post in this thread, getting min-maxed gear is as much part of my end game as:

• GSF
  
• unranked warzones
  
• operations once or twice a week if my schedule permits, maybe more if GF is popping or someone is LFG on Fleet
  
• SM through MM flashpoints and uprisings, schedule permitting
  
• story through master mode chapters, schedule permitting
  
• Conquest
  

If I didn't have two young kids and a busy job maybe I could commit to a hard mode team and progress through VM and MM operations, but that's not in the cards right now. I may not be a casual according to your definition, but I don't routinely do MM ops either.

 

In other words, I think the argument that, "Who cares how grindy or inconvenient the pathway to 258 is, or if there even is one at all, because people who play like YOU don't need 258 gear," is a fallacious one. It certainly hasn't been the paradigm for the past 3 years.

You don't *need* the gear in the sense of *do I need an extra edge to complete X content*. You don't. You just want the gear, that is your want with no need basis. And that is fine, but the definition of you *needing* anything is not fulfilled in your scenario. Only on WZ you would *need* the get it if you're looking to be competitive.

 

I don't do MM ops routinely either, I don't play anything in the game routinely, you're not alone on that. But I still consider myself a nim raider because I am capable of jumping in one at any time and having it on farm. You said you're capable of filling in on mm raids as well, so you're same as me- at-least to an extent. Not playing routinely doesn't automatically make one a casual, that' not how it works.

 

It's not a fallacy to say you don't need current 248 gear with Nathema augments to complete *current* hm/nim content, it's a fact, you *don't* need it. Otherwise explain me and guildies originally gearing trough those operations on our lower-item level characters these last expansions, we didn't even have nathema and 248 gear ingame when we *started* raiding this expansion. They both came later. And everyone raided before them just fine. There was no *need*, there was *want*.

Edited October 17, 2018 by Kiesu

[Mantlers]

Wall of text incoming. But please read if you love the game and want it to live.

 

At the end of the day, this new system is only going to benefit the MM OPs players. Which is what the Devs are aiming for.

Unfortunately they haven’t considered all of the other players or what the other affects of this change will have.

 

MM OPs guys will have these things gifted to them for playing MM content :

Get gear drops for faster gearing

Get Crafting mats for crafting 258 items

Will be able to sell those crafted items for astronomical prices and become mega rich

Will be able to sell the mats for astronomical prices and become mega rich

Will not have to play the game as much or grind as long to get gear and become mega rich.

 

How does this affect Ranked pvpers :

Ranked pvpers who also play MM OPs will have max BiS gear months before ranked only players

BiS ranked/MM players will dominate over everyone of equal skill

Ranked/MM players will top the ratings due to gear and not just skill for most of the season

Ranked/MM players will get most of the good rewards

Ranked/MM players will be the ones complaining and yelling at people who affect their ratings in solo because of lower gear

Non MM players will get frustrated and stop playing

Some Non MM players will WinTrade, this will frustrate other players who will stop playing

Less people will play ranked pvp that season and Bioware’s “holy grail of pop times” will be negatively affected by this.

Ranked pvp will become an even bigger joke than it already is

 

How does this affect reg pvpers :

PvPers, either ranked or regs who also play MM will be gear gods in reg pvp for 3-6 months.

Casual pvpers who play MM will be gear gods and have a big advantage over those of better skill levels.

Dedicated Pvpers get frustrated that they lose close fights or matches just because MM players have better gear

Causal pvpers will get decimated by gear gods and not have a chance to learn

Casual pvpers will gear even slower than dedicated pvpers due to lack of UCs to trade

Both Dedicated and Casual pvpers will get frustrated and won’t enjoy pvp.

Dedicated pvpers will either grind it out and hope superior skill will close the gear gap or stop playing

Dedicated pvpers who play against equally skilled (closely skilled) players who MM OPs will always lose

Less people will play, the queues will get longer than now and prime time bracket will continue to shrink

There will be more rage, more toxicity and more rage quits from those players remaining. Including the MM gear people because they won’t want to play with lower geared people.

This will kill and semblance of skill based pvp in this game and kill pvp fast.

 

How does this affect casual and story players :

Casual or story players won’t need the gear for current content (but will want it anyway)

Casual or story players may want the gear for the new area to make it easier (if it’s harder than current content)

Some still need 248 with max Augs to finish some content and will demand quicker access to the new gear to make it easier for them

 

How does this affect Strong Hold and Barbie dress up players :

There will be increased prices and inflation on the GTN due to MM players becoming mega rich and dominating the GTN.

Some people will use the CC market to take advantage of these high prices to sell stuff so they can afford to buy the crafted gear (de facto P2W in a round about way)

Mega rich MM players will be able to buy this gear before anyone else and relist it much higher and wait for it to sell because they are in no hurry. They will get even richer.

It will make it harder to buy the items they want at reasonable prices. Even hard to get green or blue armor to get the patterns for outfits.

I also believe even more of the less in demand cartel items will plummet in price (this is more complex and too hard to fully explain. Let’s just say it’s a gut feeling from past experience)

SH/Barbie players will be annoyed at the high prices and demand more credits be available to farm in the game. If Bioware do this, hyperinflation will be out of control.

Some will stop playing when they become disallusioned by the situation

 

How does this affect everyone in the long run :

There will be a tsunami of credit seller spam

More People stop playing

Queues for group people get longer during prime time. Outside of prime time is dead and buried.

Primetime gets small and small and eventually there isn’t one.

People start demanding server mergers to fix the queues and combat the even higher than normal hyperinflation affects on their server.

Accelerate the amount of players leaving means less people want to try a dying game

Bioware have no choice but to merge servers or no one can play group content

Hastens the closure of the game.

 

Who does this benefit :

Credit sellers are going to have a field day and make lots of money

Bioware will get a quick, but short lived injection of people buying CC.

MM OPs players will be mega rich and the rest of the game’s population will be supporting them (they will never need to use CC again to buy anything)

 

I’ve formed all of those above points by following logic and they are the conclusions I came to (%my logic could be off on a few, but not the majority)

 

Now, let’s consider the fact that Bioware themselves said (in a podcast a few months ago) that the pvp subscriber community is the most stable in numbers compared to all the other player types who come back when content is new and then leave again. Why would you want to alienate the pvpers so much and make them want to stop playing and unsubscribe.

We also need to consider that the MM OPs guys are the smallest percentage of players in the game. Why is Bioware catering to them so much at the detriment to everyone else?

We were told that GOTM Op would never be MM. Even the Ops designer didn’t think it would ever happen and it wasn’t planned for. It wasn’t until Keith decided he wanted to push it into 5.10 at the last minute did the designer find out. That is not how Bioware usually plan stuff, it’s usually months in the planning.

 

So consider this, Keith belongs to a progression guild. They are bored doing OPs that are now too easy for them. It could be coincidence, but it would appear to the outsider that he is catering to demands of his guild or his own wants/needs over the rest of the player base.

Keith will also benefit from all of the things the MM OPs guys will get with this system, like being mega rich.

Keith also plays pvp and will be able to “gear god” over people.

None of these changes will negatively affect Keith’s game play and all of them will benefit him.

This is why I think he can’t see how problematic these changes will be for the other 90-95% of the players.

I don’t think he is exactly doing this to be selfish. I think he is looking through rose coloured glass from an ivory tower and he will be getting a lot of his feed back and possibly ideas from similar people.

 

 

If you follow the logic tree to the bottom, you can see how this is going to be as big of an impact on player enjoyment and retention as 5.0 was.

That 5.0 gearing system was a disaster that took nearly 9 months to make work, but still isn’t great.

Big chunks of the player base left over it and only some came back when it was adjusted 9 months later.

That lose of numbers cumulated in server mergers and moves. That lost us even more people with most APAC and some West coast players quitting the game. And it’s continued and never recovered.

IMHO, this whole gearing idea is going to do the same thing as we saw with 5.0, but worse because at least with 5.0 there was a lot more content to keep people around longer to grind the gear. There won’t be near as much content and people will get borded really fast grinding less content for another 5-9 months till 6.0 comes out (if it doesn’t get cancelled due to how many will leave)

 

If a proper risk assessment was done to see how this gearing will affect the whole game, I think they would see everything I’ve mentioned and change course. Not changing course at that stage would be completely illogical and borderline incompetence.

 

My hope is Bioware are reading all these threads, even though some of them are harsh criticisms (it’s not personal) and will come to same conclusions as I have and change how they intend to implement this system.

 

Thank you for reading and congratulations if you got to the end.

 

Everyone that has posted the argument of "what do want, insta-gear or a free lunch? just go do the grind", has missed the complexity of the situation entirely due to tunnel vision or ignorance to any perspective that is not their own.

 

This post is a great example of just how many considerations there are and potential outcomes/repercussions. This is an example of someone that has given this matter a great deal of thought instead of approaching this complex scenario with a singular mind.

 

Will this gear be the end of the game? Probably not.

Is it beneficial for PvE players? Most certainly.

Does a rated gear system work for PvP? There is a more balanced way that puts all on a level playing field.

 

Thanks Totem for putting forward some food for thought.

Edited October 17, 2018 by Mantlers

[MordaineAcea]

Casual players don't need/deserve the best gear in game. Welcome to any MMO. It's like saying people who do pet battles in WoW should be given Mythic raid gear.

[bladech]

Dear Keith + Bioware Team,

 

I implore you to consider implementing an alternative gearing system for the PvP community, to your proposed 252/258 gear. I'm going to keep the reasons why this hurts us (BADLY) in a concise list below:

 

1. Many PvPers don't do PvE. Obtaining the means to gear up through a PvE gearing system is forcing people to participate in an aspect of the game they may not enjoy in order to grind gear.

 

2. You are penalising the Casual player: The Data Crystals you mention are obtainable for "Casual" players by doing the weeklies on multiple characters and then transfer over the mods via legacy - will Casual players really have the time to do weeklies on multiple characters? And at an ever increasing cost of UC? This doesn't sound Casual to me. Believe it or not, some of us have jobs and families and lives outside of the game, playing recreationally in our spare time.

 

3. The Craft option: How about crafters that are PvPers? Are they now supposed to be able to jump into a Gods MM and to obtain mats? This isn't realistic for many (even hardcore PvE'ers struggle with this ops) and nor should you expect a PvP player to need to do PvE in order to get mats for crafting.

 

4. Market creation: This will create a hyper-inflated market for mats, held in the hands of the MM PvE community who will be able to charge whatever they want. At least with T-ranked, anyone can give it a go and still eventually be rewarded without too much complexity.

 

In summary, you've made it astoundingly difficult and not enjoyable for PvPers like myself and many others to obtain high end gear. Some of us are still trying to gear alts in 248....

 

There was nothing wrong with the old 204/208 system for PvP - it was in fact perfect and put everyone on the same level playing field. Take a look at what they're doing in GW2 where they essentially make skill and not gear, the focus for PvP. Thanks for listening.

 

Kind Regards,

 

Loyal + Casual PvP Player that is hanging in here all these years despite many bad decisions by Bioware.

 

Devs just really like to loose subscribers. They are like mazohists - they often implement things from which they suffer in future. No fast gearing/maximum bolster buff for pvp players= loosing subscribers. Loosing subscribers= less sub fee and CM purchases which means less profit for them. They just really like to suffer

[Lhancelot]

Casual players don't need/deserve the best gear in game. Welcome to any MMO. It's like saying people who do pet battles in WoW should be given Mythic raid gear.

 

Nice hyperbolic statement that has nothing to do with what people are discussing. Either I missed it, or no one said anything about deserving free gears.

 

PVPers should have equal or at least similar opportunity to gear, the formula has been this way since the start.

 

If the design goal is to shift towards a super grindy, PVE only hardcore raid game, good luck SWTOR. The PVE isn't good enough to grow the game or draw more players to it.

 

By dropping the interest of PVPers, this game will lose subs, that's a fact. You'd think they would have learned this from the 5.0, the last patch that took a healthy dump on PVP gearing and alts.

 

PVPers are equally important as hardcore raiders in fact there's probably far more PVPers on SWTOR than there is hardcore raiders.

 

By catering to a very minute facet of the playerbase and giving the middle finger to a larger set of the playerbase one thing will be accomplished; it will hurt their bottom dollar. I am pretty sure they do care about that.

[blodvite]

I dont really mind that Nim PvE players can get gear fairly easily if they're competent.

 

What I do mind is how introducing a new tier of gear with easier accessibility to some will affect PvP. If they compensate by introducing a reasonable upbolster or downbolster then cool, no hate. Because it really makes no sense to **** over PvP players when they have the capability to compensate for hardcore Nim players being better geared than hardcore PvP players in say the ranked world.

 

Im also all for removing mats from ranked, because its just frustrating going into solo with mats farmers. Not to mention all the rating inflation team ranked can get from farming mats premades.

 

On another note, this new tier is extremly alt unfriendly. And I dont know about you PvE guys, but a lot of PvP players actually play competitivly on a broad assortment of classes, and different disciplines too.

 

So Bioware please do something so PvP can remain unaffected by the ease of access to gear for some. PvP should be a skill environment, not based on gear rating.

[phalczen]

I don't do MM ops routinely either, I don't play anything in the game routinely, you're not alone on that. But I still consider myself a nim raider because I am capable of jumping in one at any time and having it on farm. You said you're capable of filling in on mm raids as well, so you're same as me- at-least to an extent. Not playing routinely doesn't automatically make one a casual, that' not how it works.

I never said I could fill in on MM raids. I said the only time I’ve been in MM ops since the end of 3.x when we were all over leveled has been in sales runs, where I was buying. Our guild tried Dreadful Entity in the waning days of 3.x and could never get it to even 50%. I said I occasionally fill in for Vet Mode ops when the guilds’ only progression team is short a player. Some raids, like S&V or TFB, I know the VM mechanics. Other VM raids, like TOS and Rav I’ve never set foot in. For all of them, I would need a refresher on mechanics as I would hardly have them on farm as you describe yourself. So, for someone like me, who doesn’t even have Vet Mode on farm, I do in fact need the extra edge from better gear.

[Kiesu]

I never said I could fill in on MM raids. I said the only time I’ve been in MM ops since the end of 3.x when we were all over leveled has been in sales runs, where I was buying. Our guild tried Dreadful Entity in the waning days of 3.x and could never get it to even 50%. I said I occasionally fill in for Vet Mode ops when the guilds’ only progression team is short a player. Some raids, like S&V or TFB, I know the VM mechanics. Other VM raids, like TOS and Rav I’ve never set foot in. For all of them, I would need a refresher on mechanics as I would hardly have them on farm as you describe yourself. So, for someone like me, who doesn’t even have Vet Mode on farm, I do in fact need the extra edge from better gear.

Ok, sorry, I'm still so stuck up on the old mode names I get them mixed as often as as Musco does

 

I'm just gonna say no, gear is not going to help you get trough mechanics. If you cant complete HM raids with current top gear -which is already over-gearing for HMs-, you're not going to get them with marginally higher hear tier, either. And the main difference in them is just a lot more added mechanics to get right.

Read trough some Dulfy guides, get your guild in on that as well, use Star Parse and work on your dps/heal rotation till you can produce acceptable numbers. Start from easier HMs, EV/KP to TFB/SNV to DF/DP, I wouldn't even try the other ones before getting those under your belt.

And don't worry, we were all scrubs once, we all had no idea how our classes work, how to keep track of the entire raid, boss debuffs, your buffs, appropriate adrenal usage, and so on.. It just needs practice, some getting used to and probably a few guides.

But unfortunately extra gear will only be a band-aid for these raids, and won't make you with the essential game sense. It will help a little, but not enough. I speak from experience. In the end improving your gamesense is the most essential key.

Edited October 17, 2018 by Kiesu

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

You don't *need* the gear in the sense of *do I need an extra edge to complete X content*. You don't. You just want the gear, that is your want with no need basis. And that is fine, but the definition of you *needing* anything is not fulfilled in your scenario. Only on WZ you would *need* the get it if you're looking to be competitive.

 

I don't do MM ops routinely either, I don't play anything in the game routinely, you're not alone on that. But I still consider myself a nim raider because I am capable of jumping in one at any time and having it on farm. You said you're capable of filling in on mm raids as well, so you're same as me- at-least to an extent. Not playing routinely doesn't automatically make one a casual, that' not how it works.

 

It's not a fallacy to say you don't need current 248 gear with Nathema augments to complete *current* hm/nim content, it's a fact, you *don't* need it. Otherwise explain me and guildies originally gearing trough those operations on our lower-item level characters these last expansions, we didn't even have nathema and 248 gear ingame when we *started* raiding this expansion. They both came later. And everyone raided before them just fine. There was no *need*, there was *want*.

 

Agreed in spirit.

 

But,

 

You need the gear for HM Operations, NiM Operations, PVP regs, Ranked PVP. [but not really]

 

The reality is, no one needs it, you can do everything in this game even if you were 236. Able and excelling are two different things though and you always want to give your self as much of a head start as ya can because ya never know what might screw up a minute or two from now.

 

In 1x-3x when the only way you could get BIS gear was in NiM Operations, the irony you couldn't use BIS gear to clear NiM because clearing NiM was the only way you could get BIS gear in the first place. It's always like that in an y system of end game 3 tier difficulty set ups when that's the only area you could get it.

 

It's about giving yourself every possible advantage to achieve the things you want, having options is always better than not having them.

 

End game 70 group content, generally speaking, is considered to be why your "need it", because it's competitive and even where it's not 1 player vs another, than it becomes who's DPS was higher, who put out better heals, which tank lost agro less. You dont need to be any of those things as long as you meet the DPS checks and the like, but, skirting the edges sometimes can lead to the necessity of having to 'carry' a player who's not quite as good as the others yet, and who hasn't fully geared yet.

 

The real reason you need BIS for all End game group content is because people will judge you solely by seeing how geared you are. In some cases groups won't take someone who's not geared properly even if the player themself is skilled. Also any time something goes wrong and scapegoats are being looked for, the guy with the lesser gear will often make an ideal choice to point fingers at even when it wasn't him that screwed up and someone who couldn't carry his own rate was responsible.

 

In PVP it will also make you a priority target [usually more so in arenas] because people will see you as a quick and easy kill to give their team a quick numbers advantage over the other team, which is the right move.

 

It's a Dog-eat-Dog world in Star Wars Land :rak_04::rak_04::rak_04:

[kukumburr]

How is the gearing unfair? You literally get multiple sources where to get this gear. Fact is, if you want the best gear in the game you have to work for it, this literally is the case in every single MMORPG. The best way to get the gear is doing Master Mode ops. If it were the only way I'd understand the frustration, but now you're literally moaning to get everything handed to you on a silver platter. Seriously, just stop complaining because what's happening on these forums is just crazy.

 

You want the gear? Go do Master Mode ops. Don't want to do that? Fine! There are alternative ways to get the gear. Do they take longer? Yes. Is that fair? Absolutely. Because those doing the Master Mode ops also have to work for it, it's only fair the others have to as well.

 

Seriously what do people want, a token that automatically completes all content in the game and gives you all the rewards? Maybe the token should even be free for all, so that you don't have to lift a finger in the game and get all the rewards.

 

EDIT: Sidenote, casual player here! In all my years on SWTOR I haven't done a single operations because it simply isn't my cup of tea. Maybe I'll do some story ops eventually, but what am I trying to say? I have full 248 gear atm, with set bonus and 240 Superior augments on all pieces. How did I get it? All the other sources we have for obtaining the best gear ingame. Did it take longer than doing the ops? Sure, it took a while longer, but that's only fair.

 

You will not have to work for the best gear if you're rich, actually. You can just buy it from another player once the op mats start to become available. I have no problem with nightmare ops being the fastest route to gear, what I don't like is that people will be able to just sit on fleet and buy full BiS gear. I also want PvP to be a viable route to getting the gear, which might be the case for UCs but I don't trust that the current costs on PTS are accurate and they already made it sound like it wasn't meant to be a reasonable way to gear.

[Kiesu]

The real reason you need BIS for all End game group content is because people will judge you solely by seeing how geared you are. In some cases groups won't take someone who's not geared properly even if the player themself is skilled. Also any time something goes wrong and scapegoats are being looked for, the guy with the lesser gear will often make an ideal choice to point fingers at even when it wasn't him that screwed up and someone who couldn't carry his own rate was responsible.

That depends on who you raid with. If our guild is raiding with someone who they know is capable, we don't care what their gear level is. If you are new to a guild and are looking to "make good impressions" to get in a raiding group, they'll likely look at your gear more closely, because that's the only thing they can inspect freely. They're not psychics who can telepathically tell if your skill is any good, you might have gotten the achievement for a raid trough a sold raid, who knows. As long as they don't know your skill is any good, they'll look at your gear to determine do you atleast know optimal stats for you gear... If you show up in a raid with 2k accuracy, it's safe to say you don't know what you're doing, and you're gonna get left out.

 

Anyone else who demands top gear for a old HM raid, is looking to get carried themselves. As we all know, 248 was not top gear at the beginning of this expansion, yet raiders (those who know their stuff anyway) were raiding just fine. If they demand you to have even full 248 for a hardmode ops, whoever is forming the group has no confidence in their own skill, unless they're going somewhere actually mechanically and numerically intensely more overtuned, like Ravagers or Gods.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

I dont really mind that Nim PvE players can get gear fairly easily if they're competent.

 

 

That's the kicker right there.

 

Maybe 10% of the player base is skilled enough, and even that doesn't make up for, weekly lockouts, insane repair costs that PVPers never have, competing for drops against other players.

 

That's another big difference right there.

 

You can lose every single WZ your in, and you will still benefit, you will still be working towards gearing, you will still be better off after than you were before. You can be the worst player in the world, and you can still get UCs out of every WZ [uC] you do.

 

If you aren't already a NiM worthy Raider, or never were, you stand no chance of gearing via NiM. In fact, in most cases, you won't even be able to get into a group who is doing it unless they are a friend and they are willing to carry you, and even that might not work out. NiM raiders don't want to take chances like that because every single time they die/swao, thats 40-60k repairs each time. You die three times,180,000K to repair [that will be at 258 level,presently it's 40k for 248 or there about about] and you will never go thru NiM without wiping some even when the people are competent. - In many NiM fights All it takes, is one person to make one mistake, one time, no matter how good the group was doing, no matter how close they are to the clear, that one mistake, ZaPPed. Insta-wipe, everyone dies, not just the guy who make the mistake. And it doesn't matter how good you are, your a human, you will make mistakes and so will every person on your team time to time. So there are several factors that leave PVP as the better choice IMO.

 

I don't mind either, it's much harder than anything you will find in PVP and that's not saying that PVP doesn't require skill, it requires a shizton of skill, it's just that outcomes don't matter. You don't clear a boss on NiM and all those repair costs are for nothing because all 8 people will only be poorer at the end of the night and no closer to their gearing goals. You wipe, you get nothing, ever.

 

As I've mentioned in some other strings about it, I use to be a HM/NiM progression raider, got out of it in 5.0 cuz they took the gear out of raids for the first few months, and from my experience with NiM I would be suprised of any one who is thinking about going trying that route know this -

 

You will hate it. You will not have fun. You'll never get one break to go your way. You will need a second job to pay for repairs, you will want to puke in 5 minites and come to realize that NiM is clearly one of the levels of hell, only difference being that hell is far nicer and the better choice if those are your two options.

 

I'm not trying to change anyone's minds here,all the concerns people are expressing are valid, yet some of them I think perhaps are borne of some second hand experience and preconceived ideas. and I dont think this is going to be as bad as a lot of people are concerned about.

 

The only problem we will see from it is what has already been a problem and that is PVPers don't want to have to need BIS gear. They don't want to have to grind for a long time, they don't want to have earn gear on any of their alts either. They want gear completely out of the equation unless its PVP gear being introduced.

 

This cannot be reconsiled ever for as long as Raiders and PVPers are using the same gear.

It's just something PVPers are not use to and don't want to play a factor because some people will have better gear than others and they feel that any diffences, no matter how small are still not fair. It's a completely different mentality as compared to Raiders.

 

Either way, we have no choice, it's going to be what it's going to be, let's just try and wait to see what it actually is, sometimes what you thought they were going to do they don't.

 

Hey,can't get worse that BIS gearing based on RNG boxes that fall from the sky, right? heh

 

But that's just my opinion. Personally, I'm stoked for 5.10. heh

[Andryah]

Everyone that has posted the argument of "what do want, insta-gear or a free lunch? just go do the grind", has missed the complexity of the situation entirely due to tunnel vision or ignorance to any perspective that is not their own.

 

This post is a great example of just how many considerations there are and potential outcomes/repercussions. This is an example of someone that has given this matter a great deal of thought instead of approaching this complex scenario with a singular mind.

 

Will this gear be the end of the game? Probably not.

Is it beneficial for PvE players? Most certainly.

Does a rated gear system work for PvP? There is a more balanced way that puts all on a level playing field.

 

Thanks Totem for putting forward some food for thought.

Totem is deliberately making it appear more complex than it really is for most players... because he is trying very hard to sow feelings of fear, uncertainty, and doubt about the coming patch and is also trying to raise a ground swell of rage and pushback by players toward the studio... I guess in hopes of "forcing" the studio to back down and just give everyone the gear for 59 credits and a bottle cap (yes I am exaggerating cost to make a point). Totem is plying the tried and true "this will destroy the game" approach to trying to influence the studio to make changes to gear falls from trees (even harkening back to the great 4.0 crystal "monsoons" that many players geared from.

 

Here is what Totem and others who feel the same way he does should be doing ----> presenting an objective and coherent case to the studio in the PTS forum to insure that at this late stage in 5.x (and knowing we have a 6.0 coming) that for PvP players.... bolster is properly set so as to make this gear a non-factor in PvP leading up to the release of 6.0. This is a much better avenue of influence attempt on the studio then demanding cheaper faster ways to get the new gear.

 

I see absolutely no reason to be demanding this gear be available faster and at much lower effort and resource cost. BiS gear is not meant to fall from trees in bushels for players in MMOs. I DO see a reason to try to persuade the studio to make bolster = new BiS thresholds. In fact.. this should always be the PvPers approach to trying to influence the studio where gear is concerned. I know not every PvPer will agree with me as there are some that actually like the presence of a gear gate to compete and have more time then other PvPers and hence see it as an early access ticket to an advantage.

 

At the end of the day, I'm not certain that trying to get bolster raised to = BiS will work with the studio.. because from a fairness scheme perspective the studio may in fact feel that PvPers should have to work for BiS gear just like every other player. The fact that they are providing a UC pathway to get the gear, to me, exemplifies this being a studio point of view on the matter. But again.. the long term play for the PvP only player demographic is to get gear removed from the PvP equation..... not continually trash-talk the mechanics of how such gear is acquired.

 

And back to the original theme of this thread topic..... BiS gear in MMOs is generally beyond the reach of the casual player... and always has been in the MMO genre. Casual is incongruent with BiS in MMOs... and yet... this particular MMO generally does give a pathway to BiS (or very close) for the casual player... and as such is an exception to the common approach to BiS by MMO studios.

Edited October 17, 2018 by Andryah

[TUXs]

BiS gear in MMOs is generally beyond the reach of the casual player...

This is a design philosophy I strongly disagree with. The best players don't need the best gear to complete what they do - it's a great reward, I get that, but the gear is mostly needed by the masses, not the top 2% of players.

 

I would prefer to see BiS gear readily available for players of all skill levels, and have the rewards for the top of the top be cosmetic in nature, not skill enhancing. The way things work now is backwards imo.

[kukumburr]

This is a design philosophy I strongly disagree with. The best players don't need the best gear to complete what they do - it's a great reward, I get that, but the gear is mostly needed by the masses, not the top 2% of players.

 

I would prefer to see BiS gear readily available for players of all skill levels, and have the rewards for the top of the top be cosmetic in nature, not skill enhancing. The way things work now is backwards imo.

 

This. The best players are the ones who don't actually need help from a relatively small stat increase. But people still feel better when they know they've done everything they can to give themselves an edge. I've always thought they should just add cool cosmetic drops to ops but I guess they save all that stuff for the cartel market now.

 

Also it's kind of funny that people say BiS is for nightmare ops players but they said on stream nightmare GotM is balanced around 252. That means ranked PvP players technically 'need' it more than PvE players since they'll be the only ones going against 258 level players.

[giorgo]

http://www.swtor.com/blog/pvp-economy-and-ranked-rewards-restructure-game-update-3.3

 

Let that sink in. Until they fix the mess that 5.x gearing is and reintroduce separate PVP gear, they must make any new gear accessible to pvpers at the same rate with MM players. Plus this gear must be accessible by playing PVP. Not gated behind any kind of story or any stupid reputation grind, pve weeklies (lol) and other...smelly things .

Edited October 17, 2018 by giorgo

[giorgo]

Totem is deliberately making it appear more complex than it really is for most players... because he is trying very hard to sow feelings of fear, uncertainty, and doubt about the coming patch and is also trying to raise a ground swell of rage and pushback by players toward the studio... I guess in hopes of "forcing" the studio to back down and just give everyone the gear for 59 credits and a bottle cap (yes I am exaggerating cost to make a point). Totem is plying the tried and true "this will destroy the game" approach to trying to influence the studio to make changes to gear falls from trees (even harkening back to the great 4.0 crystal "monsoons" that many players geared from.

 

Here is what Totem and others who feel the same way he does should be doing ----> presenting an objective and coherent case to the studio in the PTS forum to insure that at this late stage in 5.x (and knowing we have a 6.0 coming) that for PvP players.... bolster is properly set so as to make this gear a non-factor in PvP leading up to the release of 6.0. This is a much better avenue of influence attempt on the studio then demanding cheaper faster ways to get the new gear.

 

I see absolutely no reason to be demanding this gear be available faster and at much lower effort and resource cost. BiS gear is not meant to fall from trees in bushels for players in MMOs. I DO see a reason to try to persuade the studio to make bolster = new BiS thresholds. In fact.. this should always be the PvPers approach to trying to influence the studio where gear is concerned. I know not every PvPer will agree with me as there are some that actually like the presence of a gear gate to compete and have more time then other PvPers and hence see it as an early access ticket to an advantage.

 

At the end of the day, I'm not certain that trying to get bolster raised to = BiS will work with the studio.. because from a fairness scheme perspective the studio may in fact feel that PvPers should have to work for BiS gear just like every other player. The fact that they are providing a UC pathway to get the gear, to me, exemplifies this being a studio point of view on the matter. But again.. the long term play for the PvP only player demographic is to get gear removed from the PvP equation..... not continually trash-talk the mechanics of how such gear is acquired.

 

And back to the original theme of this thread topic..... BiS gear in MMOs is generally beyond the reach of the casual player... and always has been in the MMO genre. Casual is incongruent with BiS in MMOs... and yet... this particular MMO generally does give a pathway to BiS (or very close) for the casual player... and as such is an exception to the common approach to BiS by MMO studios.

Why...do you...use colours...mate?

 

Also...

http://i.imgur.com/BrJ7UyM.jpg

[Khevar]

I see absolutely no reason to be demanding this gear be available faster and at much lower effort and resource cost. BiS gear is not meant to fall from trees in bushels for players in MMOs.

A counter argument to this particular point.

 

If a developer feels it is time for a new tier of gear, the activity of obtaining it could be made to feel "more rewarding" instead of "more grindy". Now, the current implementation as described on the PTS has a lot of features like "caps", and "increasing costs", and "resource scarcity". All of which feel "more grindy".

 

This situation is exacerbated by being at the end of the 5.x life cycle, where many (most?) players are expecting there to be a complete gear reset along with a new level cap in the near future.

 

Which means that players that DON'T feel compelled to chase the gear grind will likely pass on it, and those that DO feel compelled to chase it will do so anyway, but feel unhappy about it.

On the other hand, if the developers chose to alter the implementation so that it wasn't as much of a grind, they would have MORE people participating in it, who would feel more rewarded while doing so.

 

The only argument I've seen against easy gearing is that once people are geared they would get bored and leave. But consider that we've had 248 gear for a year and a half, with very little new content, and people are still playing!

 

This suggests to me that "obtaining BiS gear" isn't the END of the game for many players. And people will continue to log in even after they obtain it.

 

TL; DR;

If Tier 5 gear were made available faster and at much lower effort and resource cost, it would make the activity of obtaining it more fun for players, and encourage more participation, with little downside.

[Lhancelot]

This is a design philosophy I strongly disagree with. The best players don't need the best gear to complete what they do - it's a great reward, I get that, but the gear is mostly needed by the masses, not the top 2% of players.

 

I would prefer to see BiS gear readily available for players of all skill levels, and have the rewards for the top of the top be cosmetic in nature, not skill enhancing. The way things work now is backwards imo.

 

It is, that's why the game developers changed gearing slowly over time from the start to 4.0.

 

Long ago it was determined the gear grind was ridiculously too hard, to get full BiS literally took months for one toon. Clearly it was dumb, they got smart and worked on the issue over a few years time before finally getting it right. That was with 4.0, the golden age of PVP on SWTOR.

 

Ironically, they are reverting back into exactly what the game has spent years progressing from. That's the biggest head shaking part aobut this entire topic for me.