252/258 Gearing System not viable for Casual/PvP players

[TUXs]

I firmly believe that removing gear as a factor in PvP as some like to suggest BW do would break PvP in this game - people in general would stop doing it; qs would die.

Why do you think this? Rewards would still be needed, but cosmetic things, not gear. I think you're absolutely incorrect in this.

[Syal]

Why do you think this? Rewards would still be needed, but cosmetic things, not gear. I think you're absolutely incorrect in this.

 

Bioware should inspire from games like BF, COD...

[Lhancelot]

I firmly believe that removing gear as a factor in PvP as some like to suggest BW do would break PvP in this game - people in general would stop doing it; qs would die.

 

This has been proven wrong by the past. During 4.0, we could gear 10-20 toons in BiS for PVP in a matter of a month maybe less, I know I did at least. Guess what? PVP flourished during this time, because the gearing system was so seamless and fluid with the game.

 

They had vendors that sold all mods, all pieces of gears you could want with WZ comms and this made you want to PVP more because you could run so many different specs and gear the same specs differently if you wanted. It was fun.

 

I had multiple DPS sorcs then, for instance I had one in tons of alacrity mods and gear just for fun while another was all critical hit gears, just for fun. This isn't possible now. I also played countless toons and was non-stop PVPing back then, because I wasn't playing partially geared/gimpy toons and constantly focusing on grinding gears so I wasn't gimped.

 

This idea that gear grind encourages people to play more particularly PVPers is a fallacy. The only players that want a steep gear grind for PVP would be someone that wants to hold an advantage over other PVPers due to a gear gap, and contrary to what many like to say about PVPers the majority of PVPers enjoy a level playing field for both themselves and others.

 

In PVP, better gear means your PVP experience will be fulfilling and fun. Gear simply enables you to experience game content more fully. PVP is game content. The matches are a PVPers content. No one enjoys spending tons of time just trying to reach a point where their toons are not cannon fodder in a WZ.

Edited October 18, 2018 by Lhancelot

[Andryah]

Yeah because you potentially spend an hour in a MM raid wiping to the same boss and making no progress XD

 

At least bad matches are just over with quickly.

 

Yep.

 

And actually... the ability for PvPers to gear the new gear through UCs means PvPers can expect to see continued sub-par random grouping in PvP... because in PvP.. you don't have to down a boss through team play, or play your best in the match ... you simply have to show up, can actually leave your team hanging and do nothing until the match ends and then collect some UCs.

 

PvP griping here has, in my view, actually somewhat shot themselves in the foot here because as players see UCs to be low hanging fruit for gaining gear, PvP match quality will continue to decline. (yes.. I understand gear through UCs is throttled.. but just about everything thing to obtain this gear IS a throttle too... either grinding OPs, or grinding Dailies, or hoping for some low percentage random gear drop from a crate or a boss)

Edited October 18, 2018 by Andryah

[Andryah]

As a pvper I don't really care about the new system. At first I did but then I looked at it and figured out I will have 2 full legacy sets easily and at least 3 characters equipped with 258 imp/ear/relics within the first month of 5.10. If I want to go nuts and spend ucs inefficiently I could probably do that in a little over a week (depending on time to get to "hero" with the new faction). But I doubt I will go nuts. I have no problem with the new challenge. And I also don't have a problem with gear mattering in PvP.

 

^^ If only you could talks some reason into your fellow PvPers on this.

 

I applaud you taking the time to actually sit down and use the information available to determine what the real access curve is for a PvPer to gear up multiple characters. A few others have been just as thoughtful in discussion as well.. rather then running around yelling "the sky is falling!". However... most PvPers appear to have simply set their hair on fire over this and are running around yelling "fire!! fire!!".

 

I firmly believe that removing gear as a factor in PvP as some like to suggest BW do would break PvP in this game - people in general would stop doing it; qs would die.

 

I understand your perspective here, but I think in modern MMO PvP you are in the minority view here. I think your point here is there have to be desirable rewards for PvPing or players simply won't show up .. and for some players that is true.. but not for all players.

 

It really depends on your view of PvP dynamics. Do you want the ability to compete to have a notable gear component in it... or do you want the ability to compete in PvP to be skill based. Yes.. I understand that in a system that requires gear.... it's always some of both. Gear makes for a "have" and "Have-nots" paradigm in PvP and for the PvPer for PvP sake this seems unnecessary unless you want to give the advantage to players with more time then others to play the game and the ability to overcome a skill handicap through hard coded power in the gear.

 

I actually think that if you remove gear from the PvP equation you actually more closely follow the spirit of SWTOR ----> to be friendly and encouraging to the more casual players with less time to play and more desire to just play and have fun. It would also mean more people queuing for PvP at times... just for some PvP fun.. and not worrying about all the overhead to just be reasonably capable on the play field.

Edited October 18, 2018 by Andryah

[KendraP]

As i just mentioned in 2 of the other threads on this subject, i just did a lot of very rough number crunching. The new gear is about a 5% increase over what we have now (not counting augments). The 236 augment addition was a 2.5% increase with a further 0.6% for 240.

 

For reference 242 --> 248 is about 7%

 

Thoughts on the implication?

Edited October 18, 2018 by KendraP

[Rion_Starkiller]

What about the armor gain? How much more DR will we have?

 

PS - I'm really enjoying you as my personal scientific calculator

Edited October 18, 2018 by Rion_Starkiller

[KendraP]

What about the armor gain? How much more DR will we have?

 

PS - I'm really enjoying you as my personal scientific calculator

 

Let me do some googling - i dont know the DR equation offhand.

[phalczen]

I actually think that if you remove gear from the PvP equation you actually more closely follow the spirit of SWTOR ----> to be friendly and encouraging to the more casual players with less time to play and more desire to just play and have fun. It would also mean more people queuing for PvP at times... just for some PvP fun.. and not worrying about all the overhead to just be reasonably capable on the play field.

 

But the reality is far from your vision. Take some examples:

• How long did guilds actually pvp against each other under the original conquest system for control of named commanders for increased Framework drops? How long before guilds simply waited out the named commander's shield to expire, tolerated the low drop rate of Frameworks from unnamed commanders, or both? Gear doesn't matter here, by the way, since the areas are level-synced.
  
• How is Outlaw's Den doing? Gear doesn't matter here, because its level-synced.
  
• How are the pvp instances, sorry, gameplay focus areas, populated? Another area where gear doesn't matter.
  
• Is the most efficient way to acquire CMTs by grouped ranked? How is that doing?
  

This notion of "pvp for the sake of pvp" just doesn't exist in practice in our game. The people that cry out for "pvp for the sake of pvp" make it seem on the forums like 99% of anyone who does any pvp feels this way, but the reality just doesn't match the narrative. If it were, I'd be fearful of running through Outlaw's Den without a group.

Do you recall the threads complaining about Season Ten, and therefore Season Nine's rewards, being delayed for a couple of weeks, to get a quality bug-free update out? So much for "pvp for the sake of pvp."

The history of this game has been all about distribution of incentives. Why do you think Chapters and Uprisings were the main source of CXP when GC was introduced? Why do you think GSF participation increased and we finally got a balance update with 5.5? Participation in content is driven by incentives.

 

However, as you say, if the gear grind was replaced with some other very appealing incentive grind, it is possible there might be wider participation in pvp. It's part of the reason why I supported the discussion around old ranked season rewards being available for season tokens.

 

The proof will be in the pudding, I guess: The devs were clear on the livestream that Valor, Unassembled Components, CXP/XP, Requisition, credit towards dailies/weeklies, and galactic credits would NOT for the custom skirmishes 2+ vs 2+ people. So, bragging rights and the associated guild heraldry system coming after 5.10 will be the only incentives for those people, aside from training/teaching scenarios. If those things are very popular, maybe I'll be more apt to accept the "pvp for the sake of pvp" narrative.

[Rion_Starkiller]

Let me do some googling - i dont know the DR equation offhand.

 

You've let me down for the last time, Kendra

Edited October 18, 2018 by Rion_Starkiller

[Andryah]

As i just mentioned in 2 of the other threads on this subject, i just did a lot of very rough number crunching. The new gear is about a 5% increase over what we have now (not counting augments). The 236 augment addition was a 2.5% increase with a further 0.6% for 240.

 

For reference 242 --> 248 is about 7%

 

Thoughts on the implication?

 

 

Sounds about right (keep in mind it may still get adjusted some up/down before the patch goes live) ... AND.. clearly what this demonstrates is that higher tier gear/augments are seeing diminishing returns compared to prior tier gear/augments... which honestly is not surprising (this is not uncommon in MMOs).

 

Couple that with the fact that the effort/resource cost is even higher then the last bump in tier..... I really don't see the merit in chasing this gear ahead of a coming expac (even if the expac is a ways away yet).

 

People can and will chase this gear for sure... but for most players it's really not needed, and is definitely a low return on investment of time and resources. So.. chasers be aware.

Edited October 18, 2018 by Andryah

[phalczen]

As i just mentioned in 2 of the other threads on this subject, i just did a lot of very rough number crunching. The new gear is about a 5% increase over what we have now (not counting augments). The 236 augment addition was a 2.5% increase with a further 0.6% for 240.

 

For reference 242 --> 248 is about 7%

 

Thoughts on the implication?

 

5% total for all 14 gear slots? or 5% per slot?

Because if its the former scenario, 424 charged matter transubstantiators for a 5% increase is a heckuva lot less than 56 CMTs for a 3.1% increase, or 28 for a 2.5% increase. That means,

• a single 258 Masterwork gear piece provides about a 0.01% boost per Charged Matter Transubstantiator used to make it
  
• a 240 Augment provides about a 0.055% boost per CMT
  
• a 236 Augment provides about a 0.089% boost per CMT
  

 

Even if its 5% per gear slot, an average of 30 CMTs per slot means 258 gear is getting you about 0.17% boost per slot per CMT, versus 1.25% per 236 Augment per slot.

 

Either way, using CMTs to make 236 augments certainly seems a lot more cost-effective than saving them to craft 258 gear. 424 for a whole suit seems, well, insane, unless the Devs assume everyone has been exploiting group ranked.

[Rion_Starkiller]

That 5% doesn't include the additional DR from 258 armorings. 5% covers strictly Endurance, Mastery, Power, Tertiary Stat. 248 to 258 should be quite a large difference in armor DR across 7 pieces. Additionally, force power & tech power will noticeably increase for MH/OH. Edited October 18, 2018 by Rion_Starkiller

[KendraP]

5% total for all 14 gear slots? or 5% per slot?

Because if its the former scenario, 424 charged matter transubstantiators for a 5% increase is a heckuva lot less than 56 CMTs for a 3.1% increase, or 28 for a 2.5% increase. That means,

• a single 258 Masterwork gear piece provides about a 0.01% boost per Charged Matter Transubstantiator used to make it
  
• a 240 Augment provides about a 0.055% boost per CMT
  
• a 236 Augment provides about a 0.089% boost per CMT
  

 

Even if its 5% per gear slot, an average of 30 CMTs per slot means 258 gear is getting you about 0.17% boost per slot per CMT, versus 1.25% per 236 Augment per slot.

 

Either way, using CMTs to make 236 augments certainly seems a lot more cost-effective than saving them to craft 258 gear. 424 for a whole suit seems, well, insane, unless the Devs assume everyone has been exploiting group ranked.

 

Still working on the damage reduction from armor rating - got actual work.

 

Its 5% increase in total stat pool - https://m.imgur.com/a/CUmFDOp

 

Per armoring/mod/enh/whatever i could break down if someone really wants me to

[phalczen]

Additionally, force power & tech power will noticeably increase for MH/OH.

Which almost seems to justify my initial impression that it may be worthwhile getting the MH/OH via the Shards method. But crafting 258 much beyond those pieces, well, if I'm not in at least 236 augments I'm probably better off using CMTs for that instead.

[TUXs]

Still working on the damage reduction from armor rating - got actual work.

 

Its 5% increase in total stat pool - https://m.imgur.com/a/CUmFDOp

 

Per armoring/mod/enh/whatever i could break down if someone really wants me to

No need for me...I'm just gonna trust you, mostly because I'm not sure if those were even numbers I recognized, so I don't wanna look stupid

 

Thanks for the work Kendra!!!

Edited October 18, 2018 by TUXs

[Mycroft-Tarkin]

That 5% doesn't include the additional DR from 258 armorings. 5% covers strictly Endurance, Mastery, Power, Tertiary Stat. 248 to 258 should be quite a large difference in armor DR across 7 pieces. Additionally, force power & tech power will noticeably increase for MH/OH.

 

Does Bolster also bolster DR?

[Rion_Starkiller]

Does Bolster also bolster DR?

 

I never actually paid attention. I'll have a look tonight when I log in. Now I'm curious too.

[KendraP]

No need for me...I'm just gonna trust you, mostly because I'm not sure if those were even numbers I recognized, so I don't wanna look stupid

 

Thanks for the work Kendra!!!

 

Lol i did it the laziest way possible and just added tbe stats from every piece of gear -it looks bad because I wasn't planning on sharing, thus it had to make sense to no one but myself.

 

On the damage reduction the equation i found was:

Damage Reduction = ArmorRating / ( ArmorRating + 240 * 65 + 800 ) * 100

From http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=8524702

But still working on how to apply it

[Rion_Starkiller]

Still working on the damage reduction from armor rating - got actual work.

 

Its 5% increase in total stat pool - https://m.imgur.com/a/CUmFDOp

 

Per armoring/mod/enh/whatever i could break down if someone really wants me to

 

It seemed like you enjoyed doing it. That's the only reason I was pestering you about it.

 

Thanks for your work.

Edited October 18, 2018 by Rion_Starkiller

[Mycroft-Tarkin]

Lol i did it the laziest way possible and just added tbe stats from every piece of gear -it looks bad because I wasn't planning on sharing, thus it had to make sense to no one but myself.

 

On the damage reduction the equation i found was:

Damage Reduction = ArmorRating / ( ArmorRating + 240 * 65 + 800 ) * 100

From http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=8524702

But still working on how to apply it

 

As far as I know Armor Rating = literally add all the "X Armor" from the different gear pieces.

[Andryah]

Lol i did it the laziest way possible and just added tbe stats from every piece of gear -it looks bad because I wasn't planning on sharing, thus it had to make sense to no one but myself.

 

On the damage reduction the equation i found was:

Damage Reduction = ArmorRating / ( ArmorRating + 240 * 65 + 800 ) * 100

From http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=8524702

But still working on how to apply it

 

I suspect you will find DR to be largely linear as well, maybe a bit less given the offset variables in the equation you found.

 

And your back of the envelope estimates is sufficient in this case to size the increase in stats, power, DR, etc... so no need in my view to refine it further to reagent grade excrement. Some min/maxer will do that as one as the numbers are locked for the patch.... they love doing that sort of refinement to 19 decimal points.

 

For the purposes of discussion, this distills down to ~ 5% boost from new gear for what looks like 2x-5x the effort/cost of the current tier. Anyway you slice that... it looks like a bad slice of bread to chase after. but the same was true in the case of the 240 augments too.. so I guess we should not be surprised by the diminishing returns we are seeing.

Edited October 18, 2018 by Andryah

[Rion_Starkiller]

The biggest gearing change so far, looking at Smarty's sheet https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tTZEODvA4-N_wLXlizG654Ii1z9gI88HavBk1WbTsk0/edit?usp=sharing, is the change in enhancements needed to hit ~1860 alacrity.

 

You only need 5 alacrity enhancements (instead of 6) and 6 alacrity augs to hit 1.3 gcd, which means you have 1 more crit enhancement.

 

I wonder how this will affect the dps rankings

Edited October 18, 2018 by Rion_Starkiller

[Andryah]

The biggest gearing change so far, looking at Smarty's sheet https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tTZEODvA4-N_wLXlizG654Ii1z9gI88HavBk1WbTsk0/edit?usp=sharing, is the change in enhancements needed to hit ~1860 alacrity.

 

You only need 5 alacrity enhancements (instead of 6) and 6 alacrity augs to hit 1.3 gcd, which means you have 1 more crit enhancement.

 

I wonder how this will affect the dps rankings

 

Eeek.. now you are down into the minutia here.

 

More ability to spread around enhancement choices seems to be a plus here.. but a small plus. This assumes that the studio does not tinker with formulas or soft caps... which they probably will not as that is usually reserved for when a new expac comes forward.

Edited October 18, 2018 by Andryah

[MetalGhost]

Dear Keith + Bioware Team,

 

I implore you to consider implementing an alternative gearing system for the PvP community, to your proposed 252/258 gear. I'm going to keep the reasons why this hurts us (BADLY) in a concise list below:

 

1. Many PvPers don't do PvE. Obtaining the means to gear up through a PvE gearing system is forcing people to participate in an aspect of the game they may not enjoy in order to grind gear.

 

2. You are penalising the Casual player: The Data Crystals you mention are obtainable for "Casual" players by doing the weeklies on multiple characters and then transfer over the mods via legacy - will Casual players really have the time to do weeklies on multiple characters? And at an ever increasing cost of UC? This doesn't sound Casual to me. Believe it or not, some of us have jobs and families and lives outside of the game, playing recreationally in our spare time.

 

3. The Craft option: How about crafters that are PvPers? Are they now supposed to be able to jump into a Gods MM and to obtain mats? This isn't realistic for many (even hardcore PvE'ers struggle with this ops) and nor should you expect a PvP player to need to do PvE in order to get mats for crafting.

 

4. Market creation: This will create a hyper-inflated market for mats, held in the hands of the MM PvE community who will be able to charge whatever they want. At least with T-ranked, anyone can give it a go and still eventually be rewarded without too much complexity.

 

In summary, you've made it astoundingly difficult and not enjoyable for PvPers like myself and many others to obtain high end gear. Some of us are still trying to gear alts in 248....

 

There was nothing wrong with the old 204/208 system for PvP - it was in fact perfect and put everyone on the same level playing field. Take a look at what they're doing in GW2 where they essentially make skill and not gear, the focus for PvP. Thanks for listening.

 

Kind Regards,

 

Loyal + Casual PvP Player that is hanging in here all these years despite many bad decisions by Bioware.

 

They used to have pvp gear you could earn that was on par with its equivalent pve gear. I'm guessing they moved those employees who were creating the sets to the cartel maket to have more emplyees creating usless vanity items. Thats why we do not have pvp gear anymore. The game has digressed instead of progressing. Back when the game first came out we had good pvp gear, and now we have none.