The "My Commander Won't Go Back To A Follower" Argument Debunked

[Goreshaga]

Valkorion is an unreliable narrator. You cannot trust what he says and does as all he wants to do is to claim your body and break your will.

Pretty much that.

 

NEVER trust the creepy old man lurking in your head

Listen what he says and pretty much do the opposite of what he wants you to do

[Ylliarus]

Pretty much that.

 

NEVER trust the creepy old man lurking in your head

Listen what he says and pretty much do the opposite of what he wants you to do

 

You know, it was difficult to resist him though. I mean... Valkorion isn't particularly bad looking and that velvety voice of his...

 

But you're absolutely correct though! Not listening to him and doing the opposite of what he wants you to do is the only way to counter his manipulation of you

[Goreshaga]

You know, it was difficult to resist him though. I mean... Valkorion isn't particularly bad looking and that velvety voice of his...

 

But you're absolutely correct though! Not listening to him and doing the opposite of what he wants you to do is the only way to counter his manipulation of you

Even more difficult considering he always puts you in a situation where you don't have much choice.

But using his whole familly to defeat him was pretty satisfying.

[Ylliarus]

Even more difficult considering he always puts you in a situation where you don't have much choice.

But using his whole familly to defeat him was pretty satisfying.

 

Despite my feelings about KotFE and KotET, I do admit, that scene was rather epic idk why but especially Senya's role in that final scene touched me the most, because as a mother she had to endure all the horrors Valkorion inflicted on his children and family, in the end being able to end him as a source of misery for her family.

Edited October 22, 2018 by Ylliarus

[Paziqi]

This thread does raise some important questions, especially about the differences between different Outlanders. But I really don't think going back to your old factions should be any more of a problem than it was before Kotfe.

 

First of all, I'm pretty sure the Alliance isn't dissolving completely. It's a useful mechanic, and it makes sense that the Republic and Empire would still want their help.

 

What the codex tells us after Nathema is that the size and power of the Alliance has been dramatically reduced. That means that they can't dictate terms to the rest of the galaxy anymore.

 

In essence they are still important enough to be valuable to the Republic and Empire, but not so important they can afford to stay out of the coming conflict.

 

Before, the Outlander was just a single individual with a handful of followers (except the Inquisitor I guess, but they rarely felt like they were actually in charge of a huge portion of the Sith Empire.) Now they still have a small army and fleet at their command.

 

If you think your character is too physically or politically powerful to ever go back to working with their faction, then well, sorry, that's just not how it is. But I don't think it would be any different than it was in Shadow of Revan or War for Iokath, for example.

 

It's more of a big deal for Imperial characters because they had a specific place in the Sith Empire's power structure. But I'm pretty sure you aren't going to kneel before Acina for example.

 

Using my Sith Warrior as an example: He hates the Republic and the Jedi. He is extremely loyal to the Empire, but he would never want to bow before Acina. He sees her as an upstart who is sitting in on a throne that he deserves, but the fact of the matter is that she is the Empress of the Sith. He can't really do anything about that, so he is willing to consider her an ally instead. He thought the same on Iokath. And it was similar to when the Yavin Coalition formed. At the time, a quirk of the existing hierarchy of the Empire meant he was essentially a peer of Darth Marr, not an underling, despite the fact that Vitiate had turned against them.

 

I would assume it's going to be the same here, because you'll technically still be a member of the Alliance. If you consider going back to work with the Republic and Empire in any capacity as being "a lackey," then well, that's the situation your character is faced with because of the current political situation in the galaxy.

 

The game has always had restrictions for the story to move forward. You could never reject Lana and Theron in Forged Alliance. You can just tell Darth Baras to leave you alone. You can't abandon the Great Hunt. You can't just say "I don't care about saving the galaxy, Lana. Find someone else to defeat Arcann. I'm going to hunt down Acina/Saresh."

 

And in this case the coming conflict of the Republic and Empire won't let the Alliance stay neutral, and it you can't exactly ignore key objectives from your allies.

 

This is my take on it as well. I don't believe the alliance is gone at this point, just very weakened, and no longer able to stand back and dictate. Much like on Iokath, we are going to have to pick a side to ally with in order to stay alive. But that doesn't mean whoever we are allying with is now in control of us, or that we are now their inferior. We are peers, more or less equals, joining together against a common foe because neither of us could win on our own.

[casirabit]

=Ner_idia;9660146]

=> Going back to faction is fine: if you are a Peacekeeper. Why would any Sith, particularly a full dark Sith, ever go back? You've killed the Emperor and by all rights.....Acina's in your chair.

 

Except that Acina is actually dead just like Jace Malcom. They can't honesty use either of those characters after Iokath because some of watched Malcom die (those that allied with the Empire) and some watched Acina die (those that allied with the Republic) so for all story purposes those two characters are gone.

[Estelindis]

Valkorion is an unreliable narrator. You cannot trust what he says and does as all he wants to do is to claim your body and break your will.

This is so true. If my character had total freedom to act as she actually wanted, she'd never have spoken back to Valkorion at all and actively avoided doing anything he told her to do (though it'd get a bit trickier if he tried negative psychology, lol).

[Paziqi]

Except that Acina is actually dead just like Jace Malcom. They can't honesty use either of those characters after Iokath because some of watched Malcom die (those that allied with the Empire) and some watched Acina die (those that allied with the Republic) so for all story purposes those two characters are gone.

 

My guess is that we aren't going to see the new Emperor/Empress of the Empire, or whoever is leading the Republic; for this very reason. That is why we are getting our quest givers: Jonas for the Republic, and that droid from the Black Talon for the Empire. They can find a way to get around even mentioning the current leaders this way.

 

Their other options, of course, are to declare who is alive/dead... and break continuity for whoever took the other option, or to create different cut scenes for all possible options... but that is going to cost too much money. I'm betting our best case scenario is that we will get a letter from whoever is leading our faction, like we did after Nathema, based on the choices we made. I personally would be fine with that. It would be better than them not mentioning anything at all.

[Ylliarus]

This is so true. If my character had total freedom to act as she actually wanted, she'd never have spoken back to Valkorion at all and actively avoided doing anything he told her to do (though it'd get a bit trickier if he tried negative psychology, lol).

 

Especially the Jedi Knight wouls have all the reason in the world to keep ignoring Valkorion since he tried to control their mind once already. If I'd play through KotFE and KotET I'd probably do it on my Jedi Knight and she's going to oppose him whenever she gets the dialogue option to. She'll remain true to the Jedi Code throughout the entire story.

[ExarSun]

Lot of good arguments here, but overall nothing is debunked IMO. Considering the Alliance Commander (even more so if force user) is physically and spiritually OP as hell by having defeated Valkorion and reinforcing his/her force connection through him, having absorbed (part of) Vaylin's power and spirit (mentioned by Arcann). Even before KOTFE/KOTET the main character was arguably if not the strongest - one of the strongest person in their respective factions. So why would he/she go back and bend the knee before some self-appointed leader. While it may be logical for trooper or some LS Jedi, it seems weird for some self-centered Sith Lord or DS Jedi for example.

 

Not that I am against Rep vs Imp, but i dont like the idea that as the most powerful creature in the galaxy ATM, I will once again be some servant lol...

Edited October 22, 2018 by ExarSun

[Atalantia]

There is no Alliance anymore, no fleet, no nothing except a bunch of soldiers, jedi, sith, that came to defeat Zakuul.

 

And while some maybe awed with your power and stay, most of those soldiers, Jedi, Sith are going to go home. They have nothing in the area to tie them to the place. Soldiers want to go home after the victory not stay and start another round of fighting, Just ask Patton.

 

Zakuul even told you off. They aren't scared of the alliance without the fleet and the gravestone. So I guess you could go and conquer them with ........ the remaining people that stay

[Estelindis]

Zakuul even told you off. They aren't scared of the alliance without the fleet and the gravestone.

Did it really hurt anyone else that Zakuul's reaction post-Gravestone is exactly the same regardless of how you've treated them across the whole story arc? You can be a kind liberator who floods them with humanitarian aid in spite of how you and your home faction suffered at their hands, or you can try to get revenge as a bloodthirsty tyrant ruling them through pain and intimidation. No matter what, they send you exactly the same "k thx bye" mail.

[JennyFlynn]

Did it really hurt anyone else that Zakuul's reaction post-Gravestone is exactly the same regardless of how you've treated them across the whole story arc? You can be a kind liberator who floods them with humanitarian aid in spite of how you and your home faction suffered at their hands, or you can try to get revenge as a bloodthirsty tyrant ruling them through pain and intimidation. No matter what, they send you exactly the same "k thx bye" mail.

It made my head spin alright and threw me off. Majority of my characters became Peacekeepers who continued to bring aid to Zakuul. Who felt the people of Zakuul shouldn't be punished for Arcann and Vaylin's antics, or even Valkorion's. For those characters that mail didn't make a lick of sense.

[fishpeople]

Yeah Zakuul bailing on us felt like a cheap move. Oh well, they have a lot of resources on their world, I guess we can watch them get caught in the new conflict next.

[Goreshaga]

Hm, the Alliance defeated Arcann and Vaylin without the fleet though.

So why should it be considered nothing as soon as the fleet is gone ?

[fishpeople]

Hm, the Alliance defeated Arcann and Vaylin without the fleet though.

So why should it be considered nothing as soon as the fleet is gone ?

 

We also lost the Gravestone and some manpower. Maybe the new Zakuul leader is a power hungry maniac and is seizing on what he believes is an opportunity to further his own goals?

[IoNonSoEVero]

Did it really hurt anyone else that Zakuul's reaction post-Gravestone is exactly the same regardless of how you've treated them across the whole story arc? You can be a kind liberator who floods them with humanitarian aid in spite of how you and your home faction suffered at their hands, or you can try to get revenge as a bloodthirsty tyrant ruling them through pain and intimidation. No matter what, they send you exactly the same "k thx bye" mail.

 

That really bugged me. My Commanders helped Zakuul as much as they could, and that letter was really cold. I get that some Zakuulans felt like Vinn Atrius and blamed the Alliance for all of Zakuul's troubles, but part of me is really hoping they fall on their faces on their own now.

[IoNonSoEVero]

Especially the Jedi Knight wouls have all the reason in the world to keep ignoring Valkorion since he tried to control their mind once already.

 

You've actually hit on one of the things that frustrates me about that particular plot point. All four of the Force-using classes have personal experience seeing the Emperor or someone else take over other people's bodies. The Sith Warrior sees the Voice and understands what that's all about; the Jedi Consular deals with the Children of the Emperor; the Sith Inquisitor deals with Zash trying to steal their body, and the Jedi Knight has the Emperor in their head and sees the Children of the Emperor in action.

 

And everyone goes through Ziost where they get to watch Vitiate take over Master Surro and the others.

 

Thus IMHO any one of them should have been able to pretty quickly ascertain what Valkorion was after, especially when he started talking about 'hosts.' But the dialogue never gives them that chance. I always roll my eyes when the PC seems so surprised in Chapter 9, I mean, come on.

[Darth_Advent]

Zakuul flouncing on Commander Outlander is one thing I take as a hint that everything to do with KotFEET, including the Alliance, exists on borrowed time. "Please just kindly forget we were even part of the story. We'll be hanging out with the characters from the Ewoks cartoon and the Yuuzhan Vong if you need us."

 

I don't have much of a problem accepting missions from other faction leaders. For one thing despite being Commander (even after I decided specifically to become an Emperor) I was never shown or given the opportunity to do much in the way of ruling or reigning. One scene looking potent in the preamble to Iokath and a few subsequent military commitments was all. The rest of the time I could have as much been one of my followers as far as the events of an uprising were concerned.

 

From a roleplay perspective there's not much I can do about it even if I wanted too. Even a Force sensitive player class has not become on Valkorion's living god level of power and barely managed to surpass his children, and not without the aid of some helpful plot items. Even my Dark Lord cannot spread his arms and create a Palpatine scale Force Storm in space to scuttle any Republic or Imperial fleet that opposes his whims. His power base is (again) greatly diminished. If his goal is to claw his way back to the zenith of Galactic power, then it still makes sense for him to work his way into an existing system if only to subvert it from within. He was originally going to challenge the reigning Emperor of the Sith Empire someday if he lived long enough and survived the machinations of other Dark Councilors, so returning to the New Sith Empire under its new leadership doesn't change much except for the faces involved.

 

And again, even the most ludicrously overpowered Sith in lore need to some extent armies, followers, munitions, and tools. The assets of so-called Eternal Alliance just don't stack up to those of the Republic or Sith Empire anymore and that's factoring in the unprecedented crisis in basic resources putting the screws on everyone.

Edited October 22, 2018 by Darth_Advent

[Estelindis]

I always roll my eyes when the PC seems so surprised in Chapter 9, I mean, come on.

Me too. It was so obvious.

 

Can you imagine Valkorion's reaction if the PC asked one of their companions to sit on the throne instead? After all, if we had no personal political ambitions, the only reason to sit on the throne was to stop the eternal fleet going nuts and attacking everyone. Sitting there solely for that purpose doesn't actually have to be attached to any leadership role. If we'd asked a trusted companion to handle the fleet, I think Valkorion would've been thwarted.

 

I mean it's arguable as to whether "just anyone" can do it. Arcann and Vaylin both could, but they're as far from plebs as one can get. But if we were accompanied by Lana and Theron, I'm pretty sure Lana could handle it. And if Senya and Arcann were with us, I believe Senya would be capable enough.

 

This leaves the PC with the problem of Valkorion still stuck in their head, but from their point of view that'd seem much better than walking into his trap. Us managing to overcome him in spite of doing exactly what he wanted is a very unsatisfying case of "you won because you're the main character." The McGuffin holocron is really not enough justification, given that we discovered it completely by accident while failing in our actual mission to stop Vaylin breaking her conditioning (which again didn't matter because we were able to defeat her regardless).

Edited October 22, 2018 by Estelindis

[IoNonSoEVero]

Me too. It was so obvious.

 

Can you imagine Valkorion's reaction if the PC asked one of their companions to sit on the throne instead? After all, if we had no personal political ambitions, the only reason to sit on the throne was to stop the eternal fleet going nuts and attacking everyone. Sitting there solely for that purpose doesn't actually have to be attached to any leadership role. If we'd asked a trusted companion to handle the fleet, I think Valkorion would've been thwarted.

 

I mean it's arguable as to whether "just anyone" can do it. Arcann and Vaylin both could, but they're as far from plebs as one can get. But if we were accompanied by Lana and Theron, I'm pretty sure Lana could handle it. And if Senya and Arcann were with us, I believe Senya would be capable enough.

 

This leaves the PC with the problem of Valkorion still stuck in their head, but from their point of view that'd seem much better than walking into his trap. Us managing to overcome him in spite of doing exactly what he wanted is a very unsatisfying case of "you won because you're the main character." The McGuffin holocron is really not enough justification, given that we discovered it completely by accident while failing in our actual mission to stop Vaylin breaking her conditioning (which again didn't matter because we were able to defeat her regardless).

 

That would have been amazing. If one has to be strong in the Force to sit on the throne, yes, Lana or Senya could have easily handled it.

 

I always thought that Valkorion used that moment to grab your body because you'd fulfilled your role to him, but also because the energy from the throne gave him enough strength to do so, combined with your PC being stunned from the shock. If Lana or Senya had taken the throne instead, he would have been out of luck, and the next mission could have been the quest to find whatever relics would rid the PC of Valkorion in their head, like Zash's ritual with the mind trap.

[kodrac]

. I always roll my eyes when the PC seems so surprised in Chapter 9, I mean, come on.

 

When I got to that point I wanted to chuck my PC out of the window. All of these long drawn out chapters, two years of expansions, loss of companions, etc and this is what it was for? Something that unimaginative? Something we've seen multiple times before that didn't require a half-baked story and two years for? C'mon man!

 

Then it turns into "Nightmare on Zakuul Street" which was cringe worthy in itself, but it led to the worst part, in my opinion: When Valkorian is seemingly unstoppable, you use the kneel before the Dragon of Zakuul line. And it works! Why? My dream, my rules. Oh lawd I tasted a little throw up.

 

And, seriously, how does one use a physical item in a dream?

 

I've yet to finish this on my Consular and I want to see the Iresso return, but I really don't want to experience this monstrosity again.

Edited October 22, 2018 by kodrac

[SiegePro]

If Lana or Senya had taken the throne instead, he would have been out of luck, and the next mission could have been the quest to find whatever relics would rid the PC of Valkorion in their head, like Zash's ritual with the mind trap.

Even funnier would be if the Sith Inquisitor could use the exact same mind trap used to remove Zash/Khem’s split personality.

 

Imagine Valky having to spend an eternity trapped with only Zash (or Khem, but it’s funnier to imagine with Zash because they both had the same failed plan) for company?

[IoNonSoEVero]

Even funnier would be if the Sith Inquisitor could use the exact same mind trap used to remove Zash/Khem’s split personality.

 

Imagine Valky having to spend an eternity trapped with only Zash (or Khem, but it’s funnier to imagine with Zash because they both had the same failed plan) for company?

 

There could have been quite a comedy routine with that scenario.

[Ylliarus]

You've actually hit on one of the things that frustrates me about that particular plot point. All four of the Force-using classes have personal experience seeing the Emperor or someone else take over other people's bodies. The Sith Warrior sees the Voice and understands what that's all about; the Jedi Consular deals with the Children of the Emperor; the Sith Inquisitor deals with Zash trying to steal their body, and the Jedi Knight has the Emperor in their head and sees the Children of the Emperor in action.

 

And everyone goes through Ziost where they get to watch Vitiate take over Master Surro and the others.

 

Thus IMHO any one of them should have been able to pretty quickly ascertain what Valkorion was after, especially when he started talking about 'hosts.' But the dialogue never gives them that chance. I always roll my eyes when the PC seems so surprised in Chapter 9, I mean, come on.

 

Omg saaame xD like I saw it comes from lightyears away, it was the most obvious "turn" the story would take and our Alliance Commander seems so surprised it becomes comical. But you raise a very valid point though, the Force User classes should have seen it from the very first moment Valkorion appeared in their head. Especially the Warrior and Knight, those two should know the Sith Emperor the best.

 

Me too. It was so obvious.

 

Can you imagine Valkorion's reaction if the PC asked one of their companions to sit on the throne instead? After all, if we had no personal political ambitions, the only reason to sit on the throne was to stop the eternal fleet going nuts and attacking everyone. Sitting there solely for that purpose doesn't actually have to be attached to any leadership role. If we'd asked a trusted companion to handle the fleet, I think Valkorion would've been thwarted.

 

I mean it's arguable as to whether "just anyone" can do it. Arcann and Vaylin both could, but they're as far from plebs as one can get. But if we were accompanied by Lana and Theron, I'm pretty sure Lana could handle it. And if Senya and Arcann were with us, I believe Senya would be capable enough.

 

This leaves the PC with the problem of Valkorion still stuck in their head, but from their point of view that'd seem much better than walking into his trap. Us managing to overcome him in spite of doing exactly what he wanted is a very unsatisfying case of "you won because you're the main character." The McGuffin holocron is really not enough justification, given that we discovered it completely by accident while failing in our actual mission to stop Vaylin breaking her conditioning (which again didn't matter because we were able to defeat her regardless).

 

Tbh before KotET was released I expected we'd have a companion sit on the Eternal Throne instead of us. I was convinced Senya would have been a major candidate to become Empress of Zakuul. So I really like what you're saying, it would have been extremely interesting if we could seat a companion on the Eternal Throne. In that scenario the writers wouldn't have written themselves into a corner I believe. We could have been second in command or the closest advisor, I would have preferred such a take on the plot.

Edited October 22, 2018 by Ylliarus