Ylliarus Posted October 21, 2018 Author Share Posted October 21, 2018 touchy No? Just mildly annoyed I had to explain it for the umpteenth time again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonzenaattori Posted October 21, 2018 Share Posted October 21, 2018 (edited) No? Just mildly annoyed I had to explain it for the umpteenth time again develop a talent in restraint then, or patience, or knitting Edited October 21, 2018 by Bonzenaattori Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ylliarus Posted October 21, 2018 Author Share Posted October 21, 2018 develop a talent in restraint then Someone is being nice and friendly I see. Well, perhaps we can both benefit from your advice? Because your hostility is really unnecessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonzenaattori Posted October 21, 2018 Share Posted October 21, 2018 Someone is being nice and friendly I see. Well, perhaps we can both benefit from your advice? Because your hostility is really unnecessary. It's not hostility, its a proposition for a solution you seem to need Claiming that I'm being hostile is pretty childish, its like there's an unwritten rule in your head that you expect me to know and follow. Not gonna happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ylliarus Posted October 21, 2018 Author Share Posted October 21, 2018 (edited) It's not hostility, its a proposition for a solution you seem to need Claiming that I'm being hostile is pretty childish, its like there's an unwritten rule in your head that you expect me to know and follow. Not gonna happen. "Solution you seem to need"? Because I made a thread in a moment of enthusiasm and strong agreement with the poster mentioned in the OP? Surely there must be worse crimes than that out there... Also please, you started with the "touchy" comment, don't blame childish behaviour on me here. Edited October 21, 2018 by Ylliarus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonzenaattori Posted October 21, 2018 Share Posted October 21, 2018 I seem to need? Because I made a thread in a moment of enthusiasm and strong agreement? Surely there must be worse crimes than that out there... Also please, you started with the "touchy" comment, don't blame childish behaviour on me here. I called you touchy because you're acting touchy, or if you prefer you can spend the next 5 minutes trying to explain in your own words the difference between touchy and 'mildly annoyed'. Probably not possible but you're welcome to try. I mentioned your failure to debunk because most people who do such things when told they failed will try again and bolster their own efforts, or readdress it in a way that makes their argument more dynamic or backed up more adequately. You obviously do not feel the need to do that but instead reply to me by mentioning the number of times you've mentioned how you've given up already. Sorry, my expectations were too high, i didn't think you'd give up so soon. Instead of just ignoring the comment, knowing such a quote/reply was made already and already exists for people to read, you didn't have to state that you mentioned it for the umpteenth time.. but of course you did, because the idea of narrating that while disclosing a sense of 'mild annoyance', seems better for you in the long run. Almost as if the idea of having the last say satisfies you. Then you mention hostility. Lost cause Sorry for wasting my time, and yours somehow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ylliarus Posted October 21, 2018 Author Share Posted October 21, 2018 (edited) I called you touchy because you're acting touchy, or if you prefer you can spend the next 5 minutes trying to explain in your own words the difference between touchy and 'mildly annoyed'. Probably not possible but you're welcome to try. I mentioned your failure to debunk because most people who do such things when told they failed will try again and bolster their own efforts, or readdress it in a way that makes their argument more dynamic or backed up more adequately. You obviously do not feel the need to do that but instead reply to me by mentioning the number of times you've mentioned how you've given up already. Sorry, my expectations were too high, i didn't think you'd give up so soon. Instead of just ignoring the comment, knowing such a quote/reply was made already and already exists for people to read, you didn't have to state that you mentioned it for the umpteenth time.. but of course you did, because the idea of narrating that while disclosing a sense of 'mild annoyance', seems better for you in the long run. Almost as if the idea of having the last say satisfies you. Then you mention hostility. Lost cause Sorry for wasting my time, and yours somehow You're creating a problem where there is none... really you're blowing this out of proportion. I genuinely am a tiny tad baffled because I don't know if you want me to disagree with you or not xD if I am getting this correctly, if I disagreed with your first comment it would have been bad... but admitting you were right is also bad? Don't take this the wrong way but it comes across to me as if you were simply looking for a verbal fight in here. I hope I am wrong as to that assessment. Also this is a forum, where people post stuff and react. You can't blame me for reacting to your post that's literally what these forums are for xD In any case, sorry if I disappointed you or anything. It's just not my intention to look for a fight the thread led to a lot of interesting talks and spirited debates in here so I don't see a need to ruin that sentiment. Edited October 21, 2018 by Ylliarus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonzenaattori Posted October 21, 2018 Share Posted October 21, 2018 You're creating a problem where there is none... really you're blowing this out of proportion. I genuinely am a tiny tad baffled because I don't know if you want me to disagree with you or not xD if I am getting this correctly, if I disagreed with your first comment it would have been bad... but admitting you were right is also bad? Don't take this the wrong way but it comes across to me as if you were simply looking for a verbal fight in here. I hope I am wrong as to that assessment. Also this is a forum, where people post stuff and react. You can't blame me for reacting to your post that's literally what these forums are for xD In any case, sorry if I disappointed you or anything. It's just not my intention to look for a fight the thread led to a lot of interesting talks and spirited debates in here so I don't see a need to ruin that sentiment. when in doubt, hug it out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ylliarus Posted October 21, 2018 Author Share Posted October 21, 2018 when in doubt, hug it out A sentiment I can agree with heartily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fallensouls Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 (edited) Amen. The SWTOR forums are no less toxic than Reddit, the sheer hostility here is astounding. At least on Reddit I've had good discussions with people where reasonable arguments were exchanged politely. Here it doesn't take much to light a fire that makes the Tsar Bomba look like a candlelight. What a worthwhile addition to the discussion. Instead of responding to the points I made in response to your post, you reply with spite. Clearly you're not here for civilised debate but only to grieve people. Despite the fact that several other people and myself included pointed out to you I had already admitted this thread was made in a spur of the moment decision, you keep spitefully bringing it up. Such behaviour comes close to bullying and garners you no favour. I have admitted four times now this thread was a mistake but you keep attacking those who disagree with you. That is extremely troublesome behaviour. I like how you always assume others have read your previous posts. You literally say the same thing in most of them so I didn't bother to read every single one.You argue with most of us, and are literally rude to everyone who disagrees with you. Also my statement is true and accurate so why are you berating me? Because your thread isn't going the way you want? I have already told you several times your mistake is taking that crap poll on Reddit as accurate numbers of people who didn't like The Eternal Throne stuff. I don't appreciate you taking it out on me because you got a wake up call. I will apologize for my snarky remark, even tho some of your comments are not very nice at all, not just to me but others as well. And as far as adding to the discussion, I think the most people would have loved it if , the whole thing wasnt a solo mission. That was the one thing that upset everyone. If that was fixed people would love it, it would be way less grindy and more fun.. But still I think the story is worth playing over and over. Certainly worth continuing as well. Edited October 22, 2018 by Fallensouls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ner_idia Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 People have been campaigning....and I mean CAMPAIGNING....that everyone should just suck it up and be happy about going back to faction. It's not so much a dialogue as harraging, much like the person who keeps yelling and interrupting until the other side simply gives up. My thoughts: => Going back to faction is fine: if you are a Peacekeeper. Why would any Sith, particularly a full dark Sith, ever go back? You've killed the Emperor and by all rights.....Acina's in your chair. => The process of going back is going to be the most ham-fisted and likely unbelievable situation possible. Much like everything else that's happened since KOTFE came out, you'll get various options...all of which will lead you to the same place. I could say more but it'd probably be a waste of effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldVengeance Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 (edited) This thread does raise some important questions, especially about the differences between different Outlanders. But I really don't think going back to your old factions should be any more of a problem than it was before Kotfe. First of all, I'm pretty sure the Alliance isn't dissolving completely. It's a useful mechanic, and it makes sense that the Republic and Empire would still want their help. What the codex tells us after Nathema is that the size and power of the Alliance has been dramatically reduced. That means that they can't dictate terms to the rest of the galaxy anymore. In essence they are still important enough to be valuable to the Republic and Empire, but not so important they can afford to stay out of the coming conflict. Before, the Outlander was just a single individual with a handful of followers (except the Inquisitor I guess, but they rarely felt like they were actually in charge of a huge portion of the Sith Empire.) Now they still have a small army and fleet at their command. If you think your character is too physically or politically powerful to ever go back to working with their faction, then well, sorry, that's just not how it is. But I don't think it would be any different than it was in Shadow of Revan or War for Iokath, for example. It's more of a big deal for Imperial characters because they had a specific place in the Sith Empire's power structure. But I'm pretty sure you aren't going to kneel before Acina for example. Using my Sith Warrior as an example: He hates the Republic and the Jedi. He is extremely loyal to the Empire, but he would never want to bow before Acina. He sees her as an upstart who is sitting in on a throne that he deserves, but the fact of the matter is that she is the Empress of the Sith. He can't really do anything about that, so he is willing to consider her an ally instead. He thought the same on Iokath. And it was similar to when the Yavin Coalition formed. At the time, a quirk of the existing hierarchy of the Empire meant he was essentially a peer of Darth Marr, not an underling, despite the fact that Vitiate had turned against them. I would assume it's going to be the same here, because you'll technically still be a member of the Alliance. If you consider going back to work with the Republic and Empire in any capacity as being "a lackey," then well, that's the situation your character is faced with because of the current political situation in the galaxy. The game has always had restrictions for the story to move forward. You could never reject Lana and Theron in Forged Alliance. You can just tell Darth Baras to leave you alone. You can't abandon the Great Hunt. You can't just say "I don't care about saving the galaxy, Lana. Find someone else to defeat Arcann. I'm going to hunt down Acina/Saresh." And in this case the coming conflict of the Republic and Empire won't let the Alliance stay neutral, and it you can't exactly ignore key objectives from your allies. Edited October 22, 2018 by OldVengeance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goreshaga Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 I would have no problem supporting the Republic on my former JK, as long as i could stay with the Alliance (as an indépendant faction who is only helping the Republic) and not forced to go back to being a Jedi Master. So right now, this is my biggest concern with that new storyline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TyonYlle Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 (edited) Going back to faction is fine: if you are a Peacekeeper. Why would any Sith, particularly a full dark Sith, ever go back? You've killed the Emperor and by all rights.....Acina's in your chair. I mean, one could also say that you left the empire, Acina stayed; she built up a powerbase in your absence. The chair might be yours (general your) but what would happen if you tried to take it by force? Edited October 22, 2018 by TyonYlle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fallensouls Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 (edited) You cannot go back to your previous faction because it would violate Star Wars cannon. You are a force user who uses both sides of the Force. You cannot return to the Sith because it violates Their theology that the Darkside is better than the light and they would try to kill you. The jedi who are very intolerant of any darkside use would separate you from the force and Exile you like they did to the Exile. SO Bioware is basically ignoring cannon to force the story back to the Sith vs Jedi. Unless they intend to allow the Alliance to continue. That would be the only way it would work. Edited October 22, 2018 by Fallensouls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ylliarus Posted October 22, 2018 Author Share Posted October 22, 2018 I like how you always assume others have read your previous posts. You literally say the same thing in most of them so I didn't bother to read every single one.You argue with most of us, and are literally rude to everyone who disagrees with you. Also my statement is true and accurate so why are you berating me? Because your thread isn't going the way you want? I have already told you several times your mistake is taking that crap poll on Reddit as accurate numbers of people who didn't like The Eternal Throne stuff. I don't appreciate you taking it out on me because you got a wake up call. I will apologize for my snarky remark, even tho some of your comments are not very nice at all, not just to me but others as well. And as far as adding to the discussion, I think the most people would have loved it if , the whole thing wasnt a solo mission. That was the one thing that upset everyone. If that was fixed people would love it, it would be way less grindy and more fun.. But still I think the story is worth playing over and over. Certainly worth continuing as well. You're trying to paint me in a specific light and because of it see my every post as something hostile. Being argumentative, disagreeing with someone's viewpoints and debating it with reasonable counter arguments is NOT arguing. I admit, I may have seemed heated at times but I merely echo the sentiment of the post I receive. If someone responds to me derisively, I will respond so in turn. If someone responds to me with a spirited debate but respect for my opinion, I will return the sentiment. You try to force me into the image that I am mad and angry that people disagree with me. I literally am not even remotely mad or angry. Disagreeing with someone's viewpoints and explaining why is how debates and discussions work, I really don't understand why you're getting so worked up over it that I do not agree with you and see things differently than you do. I am not taking anything out on you, I am challenging your views in order to continue a reasonable debate. But if you respond to me with a derisive or belittling demeanour you can't expect me to just nod and accept that. What wake up call are you talking about? I agree that this thread wasn't particularly necessary to make because the subject was discussed in a different thread. But I still stand by my viewpoints and defend them as any other debater would do in a discussion. I don't know if you're angry with me for disagreeing with you or if there is another problem here, but I am merely taking part in a spirited discussion as many others do. You cannot go back to your previous faction because it would violate Star Wars cannon. You are a force user who uses both sides of the Force. You cannot return to the Sith because it violates Their theology that the Darkside is better than the light and they would try to kill you. The jedi who are very intolerant of any darkside use would separate you from the force and Exile you like they did to the Exile. SO Bioware is basically ignoring cannon to force the story back to the Sith vs Jedi. Unless they intend to allow the Alliance to continue. That would be the only way it would work. That is YOUR perspective on the issue. In no way, shape or form did the story force any other alignment on our characters than the one that we chose to follow. If you chose to be a Dark Side Sith Warrior, you're still a Dark Side Sith Warrior at the end of KotET. If you chose to be a Light Side Jedi Consular, you're still a Light Side Jedi Consular at the end of KotET. Bioware prizes itself for allowing their players to choose the destiny and journey of their players' characters, they go out of their way to give players as much room as they can by not declaring any canons. It's why until this day we do not know who the canon Sith ruler is at the moment, Acina or Vowrawn. Charles Boyd explicitly said on Twitter Bioware would not force a canon on player choices. Therefore Bioware will also not force any alignment in the Force on our toons. If you chose to play as a Sith or Jedi who steered away from their original teachings, that is your right and choice. But that same narrative is not forced onto anyone else, as it's Bioware's policy to not make any important choices canon so as to leave room for the players to make choices and interpretation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fallensouls Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 (edited) If you chose to play as a Sith or Jedi who steered away from their original teachings, that is your right and choice. But that same narrative is not forced onto anyone else, as it's Bioware's policy to not make any important choices canon so as to leave room for the players to make choices and interpretation. You are totally wrong, you do become a user of both sides of the force regardless if you chose either option. You are just trying to get everyone to believe you because going back to the Sith vs Jedi is what YOU want. You use both sides of the force after you get either Satele or Marr to train you It doesnt matter who helps you make your saber because you already got the training. You use both sides of the force to become the new Revan and fulfill your destiny to defeat the Emperor, dont you get that or are you just trying to cover that part of the story up? KOTOR has always been about REVAN AND THE EMPEROR.. Since you kill REVAN you become the new one to beat VAlkorian and that can only be done if you use more than just one side of the force. That is the whole story AND HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE INTENT OF THE WRITERS TO MAKE HAPPEN. YOUR OPINION is based of your want for YOUR character and not based in any reality of the story of the game. Edited October 22, 2018 by Fallensouls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ylliarus Posted October 22, 2018 Author Share Posted October 22, 2018 You are totally wrong, you do become a user of both sides of the force regardless if you chose either option. You are just trying to everyone to believe you because going back to the Sith vs Jedi is what YOU want. You use both sides of the force after you get either satele or Marr to train you I doesnt matter who helps you make your saber because that is not the training you get. You use both sides of the force to become the new Revan and fulfill your destiny to defeat the Emperor, dont you get that or are you just trying to cover that part of the story up? KOTOR has always been about REVAN AND THE EMPEROR.. Since you kill REVAN you become the new one to beat VAlkorian and that can only be done if you use more than just one side of the force. That is the whole story AND HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE INTENT OF THE WRITERS TO MAKE HAPPEN. The intent of the writers is to give every single player of SWTOR the ability to shape their own destiny and create their own personal epic story. You believing me to be wrong does not make me wrong. I can disagree with your viewpoint and not be automatically incorrect, because your point of view is just as subjective as my own. Throughout the story of KotFE and KotET you get multiple dialogue opportunities to dismiss a wider view of the Force. Through Bioware's own policy to give room to player choice and interpretation it's not forced upon us at any point in the story. I watched a playthrough the other day of KotFE and KotET on Youtube where the player made choices that kept him aligned with the Dark Side and at every opportunity he got he professed his character's alignment with the Dark Side and Sith whenever he had the ability to do so in the dialogue options. Perhaps you have missed these dialogue options because you personally play through the story accepting a wider view of the Force. But your playthrough is not a general objective canon, it's only your subjective personal canon just as my playthroughs are mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fallensouls Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 (edited) The intent of the writers is to give every single player of SWTOR the ability to shape their own destiny and create their own personal epic story. You believing me to be wrong does not make me wrong. I can disagree with your viewpoint and not be automatically incorrect, because your point of view is just as subjective as my own. Throughout the story of KotFE and KotET you get multiple dialogue opportunities to dismiss a wider view of the Force. Through Bioware's own policy to give room to player choice and interpretation it's not forced upon us at any point in the story. I watched a playthrough the other day of KotFE and KotET on Youtube where the player made choices that kept him aligned with the Dark Side and at every opportunity he got he professed his character's alignment with the Dark Side and Sith whenever he had the ability to do so in the dialogue options. Perhaps you have missed these dialogue options because you personally play through the story accepting a wider view of the Force. But your playthrough is not a general objective canon, it's only your subjective personal canon just as my playthroughs are mine. YOUR OPINION is based of your want for YOUR character and not based in any reality of the story of the game. And your biased outlook because you want to return to Jedi vs Sith. I think Bioware just needs to do another dark vs light event then everyone would be sick of Jedi vs Sith, and we wouldn't be discussing this at all. Because after you make 5 new characters from scratch you are ready for some new content. Jedi vs Sith is just Bioware cutting corners rehashing old content and frankly i do not want to play any repacked old content. I would rather go play another game and many of my friends, and most of my guild feel the same way. Edited October 22, 2018 by Fallensouls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goreshaga Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 (edited) Charles Boyd explicitly said on Twitter Bioware would not force a canon on player choices. Therefore Bioware will also not force any alignment in the Force on our toons. If you chose to play as a Sith or Jedi who steered away from their original teachings, that is your right and choice. But that same narrative is not forced onto anyone else, as it's Bioware's policy to not make any important choices canon so as to leave room for the players to make choices and interpretation. And this is exactly why there is a need to at least give the option to keep the Alliance (even if in a slightly different shape or with a different name). There is a choice in the storyline to really care about the Alliance, Torian even calls Odessen his home at some point, wich means that Odessen and the Alliance can be very important to both our PCs and their companions. You can also chose to go beyond both the Jedi and Sith teachings. My former JK chose to listen to both Marr and Satele, and she already had some very interesting discussions with Scourge about the Force and about the Jedi and Sith views about it way before being frozen. She fell in love and is now engaged to Theron, there is no turning back to being a Jedi for her now, that would just not make any sense, she is not suited to be a Jedi anymore, even if she's still willing to fight to protect people and bring peace, she can't do it as a Jedi. YOUR OPINION is based of your want for YOUR character and not based in any reality of the story of the game. And your biased outlook because you want to return to Jedi vs Sith. I think Bioware just needs to do another dark vs light event then everyone would be sick of Jedi vs Sith, and we wouldn't be discussing this at all. On the other hand, there is indeed also the choice of telling both Marr and Satele that you'll stay a Jedi/Sith no matter what... Edited October 22, 2018 by Goreshaga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ylliarus Posted October 22, 2018 Author Share Posted October 22, 2018 (edited) YOUR OPINION is based of your want for YOUR character and not based in any reality of the story of the game. And your biased outlook because you want to return to Jedi vs Sith. You see? I cannot have a reasonable discussion with you because you don't even respond to my arguments, you're just telling me how wrong I am without giving factual evidence. I am trying to do my best here to be patient and reasonable, but clearly it's not being reciprocated because you're so stubbornly convinced that only you can be right. Edited October 22, 2018 by Ylliarus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ylliarus Posted October 22, 2018 Author Share Posted October 22, 2018 (edited) And this is exactly why there is a need to at least give the option to keep the Alliance (even if in a slightly different shape or with a different name). There is a choice in the storyline to really care about the Alliance, Torian even calls Odessen his home at some point, wich means that Odessen and the Alliance can be very important to both our PCs and their companions. You can also chose to go beyond both the Jedi and Sith teachings. My former JK chose to listen to both Marr and Satele, and she already had some very interesting discussions with Scourge about the Force and about the Jedi and Sith views about it way before being frozen. She fell in love and is now engaged to Theron, there is no turning back to being a Jedi for her now, that would just not make any sense, she is not suited to be a Jedi anymore, even if she's still willing to fight to protect people and bring peace, she can't do it as a Jedi. Agreed, that way both sides of this issue can be pleased and Bioware makes all players have something they want. On the other hand, there is indeed also the choice of telling both Marr and Satele that you'll stay a Jedi/Sith no matter what... THANK YOU. Edited October 22, 2018 by Ylliarus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fallensouls Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 (edited) You see? I cannot have a reasonable discussion with you because you don't even respond to my arguments, you're just telling me how wrong I am without giving factual evidence. I am trying to do my best here to be patient and reasonable, but clearly it's not being reciprocated because your so stubbornly convinced that only you can be right. I have given you factual reasons , sound logical reasons, you just don't want to admit how absolutely wrong you been in every post and every forum. No you are not very nice at all most of the time and that is why I am short with you in some instances. You do not discuss you argue and that is not fun for anyone. And no there is no option to just stay as you are in the story, Valkorian would not accept you if you did that anyways. Edited October 22, 2018 by Fallensouls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ylliarus Posted October 22, 2018 Author Share Posted October 22, 2018 (edited) I have given you factual reasons , sound logical reasons, you just don't want to admit how absolutely wrong you been in every post and every forum. No you are not very nice at all most of the time and that is why I am short with you in some instances. You do not discuss you argue and that is not fun for anyone. I literally don't know what to say to you anymore. What you're saying right now is "you disagree with me and therefore you're rude and not nice". I have explained my viewpoints calmly and reasonably, I have given examples and elaborations. But you dismiss it all, you just dismiss it all and tell me how wrong I am and think that's proof enough to counter my arguments. You can't blame me for not admitting that I am wrong if I don't believe I am wrong based on the evidence I have seen and gathered myself. I am sorry for not agreeing with you, but your arguments simply aren't convincing me you're right. I repeat, being argumentative is not being hostile. Challening your views as part of a debate is not being hostile. Why do you see disagreement with your viewpoints as a personal attack? Edited October 22, 2018 by Ylliarus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ylliarus Posted October 22, 2018 Author Share Posted October 22, 2018 And no there is no option to just stay as you are in the story, Valkorian would not accept you if you did that anyways. Valkorion is an unreliable narrator. You cannot trust what he says and does as all he wants to do is to claim your body and break your will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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