The "My Commander Won't Go Back To A Follower" Argument Debunked

[Fallensouls]

So far from the posts here it looks like allot of us do not want to go back to being a follower of our former factions.

[Ylliarus]

So far from the posts here it looks like allot of us do not want to go back to being a follower of our former factions.

 

Appearances can be very deceptive my friend not meaning this as disrespect to any of the posters here, but it's the same group of people that continue in this discussion/debate. Go onto the SWTOR Reddit forums and you'll see very different sentiments. Go to the Discord servers that contain SWTOR players and the sentiment will change again. The fact you see a lot of positive posts doesn't make it proof that a lot of the playerbase doesn't want to go back to their factions. Vocal minorities are a thing, you know (note that I am not calling anyone here a vocal minority, just talking in general here!)

Edited October 20, 2018 by Ylliarus

[Fallensouls]

Appearances can be very deceptive my friend not meaning this as disrespect to any of the posters here, but it's the same group of people that continue in this discussion/debate. Go onto the SWTOR Reddit forums and you'll see very different sentiments. Go to the Discord servers that contain SWTOR players and the sentiment will change again. The fact you see a lot of positive posts doesn't make it proof that a lot of the playerbase doesn't want to go back to their factions. Vocal minorities are a thing, you know (note that I am not calling anyone here a vocal minority, just talking in general here!)

 

I will never use reddit, that site sucks lol, all people do on there is troll and no real discussing takes place. Plus tons of players have no idea aboput a poll on reddit. So it doesn't have the true numbers of how people feel, because everyone in game didn't vote.

 

Also you forget the huge mass of players who don't come to the forums, I wonder how they will react to going backwards on our characters stories? I am sure Bioware is very nervous about that. Will this be another Galactic Command debacle?

Edited October 20, 2018 by Fallensouls

[Ylliarus]

I will never use reddit, that site sucks lol

 

Great for you, but this very moment 1000 people are online on the SWTOR Reddit, posting and discussing stuff. What you think or perceive doesn't automatically become reality or truth. Also, the fact that you say "that site sucks" does not invalidate the opinions and posts those players post or discuss there. Their opinions are as valid as yours, as valid as mine. They can't be just dismissed because you personally don't like the medium they use to discuss.

Edited October 20, 2018 by Ylliarus

[Fallensouls]

Great for you, but this very moment 1000 people are online on the SWTOR Reddit, posting and discussing stuff. What you think or perceive doesn't automatically become reality or truth. Also, the fact that you say "that site sucks" does not invalidate the opinions and posts those players post or discuss there. Their opinions are as valid as yours, as valid as mine. They can't be just dismissed because you personally don't like the medium they use to discuss.

 

You perception and or likes doesnt mean its right for everyone and it is just your opinion. It is not a fact that everyone likes the idea of going back to Sith vs jedi or that it is even the majority that like that idea. That is your opinion not a fact .

Just because a poll showed thats how people on reddit feel does not mean the entire game feels that way or agrees with your opinion. This game cannot afford another screw up like the Galactic command was and if mass of subs leave, this game may not survive. You do realize that dont you? EA has no problem shutting down a game that does not make money.

 

You know what I bet your poll on reddit doesn't mean anything, I kinda get the feeling Lucas Arts wants this so they can promote their crappy comic book series. Wouldnt be the first time Lucas arts made a game fail either. Because that is what happened to SWG.

Edited October 20, 2018 by Fallensouls

[AureliaSulis]

You perception and or likes doesnt mean its right for everyone and it is just your opinion. It is not a fact that everyone likes the idea of going back to Sith vs jedi or that it is even the majority that like that idea. That is your opinion not a fact .

Just because a poll showed thats how people on reddit feel does not mean the entire game feels that way or agrees with your opinion. This game cannot afford another screw up like the Galactic command was and if mass of subs leave, this game may not survive. You do realize that dont you? EA has no problem shutting down a game that does not make money.

 

That is the heart of the issue. Will returning subscriptions compensate for the loss of more subscribers? Will the game continue to tread water barely keeping financially afloat, or will the new content put further lead in its 'shoes' and it goes under, and eventually there will be no game.

 

My advice to BioWare (and all those who have their ear) - for the umpteenth time - is to continue the Alliance as a playable third faction. This would help prevent the inevitable loss of further subscriptions and income.

[Ylliarus]

All people do on there is troll and no real discussing takes place. Plus tons of players have no idea aboput a poll on reddit. So it doesn't have the true numbers of how people feel, because everyone in game didn't vote.

 

Also you forget the huge mass of players who don't come to the forums, I wonder how they will react to going backwards on our characters stories? I am sure Bioware is very nervous about that. Will this be another Galactic Command debacle?

 

Actually, I find the crowd over at the SWTOR Reddit much friendlier than some of the people here. The discussions I was able to have there were far more reasonable and friendly than some of the stuff that I have seen happen here.

 

The poll was meant as a general estimate representation, I have repeated that many times. It does not speak for the entire playerbase, but it can give an estimate to how players generally will feel about the subject. The poll was posted here on these forums as well as on Reddit. IRL news stations, papers, scientists as well as researchers work on exactly the same basis; if you have a city of 250.000 people, they take 2.500 for example and poll them on a specific issue, using the results as a general estimate to how people in that city might feel. It is a practice that happens daily, because it's impractical to poll an entire city of 250.000 people. The same goes here, I don't have the means to make every single SWTOR player vote on a poll, so what did I do? I went to the 2 most populous SWTOR forums, these and Reddit, trying to poll as many people as I could. On Reddit the thread was on #3 for a day or two so it had very good visibility and therefore could reach a lot of players. Is it meant to speak for the entire playerbase? Again, no. Can it give an estimate on how players generally might feel about the subject at hand? It could.

 

As to the silent players who don't come to the forums to voice their thoughts: I can't know what they'll do, but you neither. Neither you or I can presume to speak for them, we can only assume one thing or another based on our experiences and perceptions. The sentiments I have seen being expressed by people as well as having seen many old contacts return to the game make me convinced the return to the Empire vs Republic narrative is going to work beneficially to SWTOR. You seemingly have had different experiences, which I have to respect. Just because I experienced things differently doesn't make you automatically wrong, but exactly the same goes for you. Just because your friends or guild expressed negative opinions about the return to the Empire vs Republic story doesn't make me wrong nor does it invalidate my opinion.

 

You perception and or likes doesnt mean its right for everyone and it is just your opinion. It is not a fact that everyone likes the idea of going back to Sith vs jedi or that it is even the majority that like that idea. That is your opinion not a fact .

Just because a poll showed thats how people on reddit feel does not mean the entire game feels that way or agrees with your opinion. This game cannot afford another screw up like the Galactic command was and if mass of subs leave, this game may not survive. You do realize that dont you? EA has no problem shutting down a game that does not make money.

 

It seems we were both thinking and writing the same thing at the same time.

 

You also do realise that I want this game to do good, right? You do realise that I post this passionately about this particular subject because I love and adore SWTOR? I want this game to do good, I want it to be succesful. But seemingly our opinions differ on how that success can be achieved.

Edited October 20, 2018 by Ylliarus

[Dracofish]

I will never use reddit, that site sucks lol, all people do on there is troll and no real discussing takes place. Plus tons of players have no idea aboput a poll on reddit. So it doesn't have the true numbers of how people feel, because everyone in game didn't vote.

 

Also you forget the huge mass of players who don't come to the forums, I wonder how they will react to going backwards on our characters stories? I am sure Bioware is very nervous about that. Will this be another Galactic Command debacle?

 

I frequent the fanart/fanfic circle on Tumblr, and I can say there is a large group of folks there who don't do Reddit or these forums and have very similar concerns as mine with the game direction. They may not be dead against the return to the original conflict, but they don't like having the last hundred or so hours of story pretty much erased. And that seems to be a common theme.

 

As I've said before, the "It Was All A Dream" trope would make more sense to me than just forcing us to crawl back to our original factions. (Seriously, that was a joke, but it would make more sense. Really.)

Edited October 21, 2018 by Dracofish

[IoNonSoEVero]

Vowrawn would seem to be the heir apparent in the Empire lue of Acina. Plus the character already has a background with working well with him in the storyline. I have no real objection to Vowrawn for the above reasons, I was just really hoping to try something different to set it abit apart from other male Emperor leaders, plus with a female lead it also leaves the door open for a new possible romance option.

 

Additionally, though while suitable on the one hand, the fact that he is an alien is problematic. The Empire has age old racial strife and the upper echelon has always been fairly pro-human for leadership. It isn't a coincodence that every Emperor you have ever seen is human.

 

Pureblood Sith are not considered 'aliens' in the Empire the way other species are. In fact they're considered superior to humans and the Sith order comes from their heritage. There are plenty of people at the Sith Academy that say as much, such as the Sith who has you scan the overseers to see how much Sith pureblood heritage they have and wants to weed out the ones who don't have a lot.

 

Tenebrae's original body, the Emperor's Hands, Darth Serevin, Darth Arkous, Scourge - there are plenty of Sith purebloods all over leadership in the Empire.

 

If you play a Sith pureblood for any Imperial class you don't get the same 'you're a dirty alien' or 'I'm shocked an alien is doing so well' remarks that pop up from time to time with the other species, either.

Edited October 21, 2018 by IoNonSoEVero

[MandFlurry]

Actually, I find the crowd over at the SWTOR Reddit much friendlier than some of the people here. The discussions I was able to have there were far more reasonable and friendly than some of the stuff that I have seen happen here.

 

The poll was meant as a general estimate representation, I have repeated that many times. It does not speak for the entire playerbase, but it can give an estimate to how players generally will feel about the subject. The poll was posted here on these forums as well as on Reddit. IRL news stations, papers, scientists as well as researchers work on exactly the same basis; if you have a city of 250.000 people, they take 2.500 for example and poll them on a specific issue, using the results as a general estimate to how people in that city might feel. It is a practice that happens daily, because it's impractical to poll an entire city of 250.000 people. The same goes here, I don't have the means to make every single SWTOR player vote on a poll, so what did I do? I went to the 2 most populous SWTOR forums, these and Reddit, trying to poll as many people as I could. On Reddit the thread was on #3 for a day or two so it had very good visibility and therefore could reach a lot of players. Is it meant to speak for the entire playerbase? Again, no. Can it give an estimate on how players generally might feel about the subject at hand? It could.

 

As to the silent players who don't come to the forums to voice their thoughts: I can't know what they'll do, but you neither. Neither you or I can presume to speak for them, we can only assume one thing or another based on our experiences and perceptions. The sentiments I have seen being expressed by people as well as having seen many old contacts return to the game make me convinced the return to the Empire vs Republic narrative is going to work beneficially to SWTOR. You seemingly have had different experiences, which I have to respect. Just because I experienced things differently doesn't make you automatically wrong, but exactly the same goes for you. Just because your friends or guild expressed negative opinions about the return to the Empire vs Republic story doesn't make me wrong nor does it invalidate my opinion.

 

 

 

It seems we were both thinking and writing the same thing at the same time.

 

You also do realise that I want this game to do good, right? You do realise that I post this passionately about this particular subject because I love and adore SWTOR? I want this game to do good, I want it to be succesful. But seemingly our opinions differ on how that success can be achieved.

 

Don't mean to get political, because i'm not, but i thought and would have hoped that people would not have still been stupid enough to by by polls that do Not represent much of the fanbase, but only a small part. I also don't use Reddit and don't care for it because it doe not fulfill my needs.

 

Remember an Election in 2016, in which Trump did not have a chance on winning whatsoever won by a landslide in some parts. These are how terrible polls can mis-represent not just a gaming community, but also a whole country as well.

 

Too many dumb polls that you describe say they represent a whole entire state or city of 250,000+ or whatever, in which only 200 people or sometimes less or more Never really shows how that community feels and that's where stations put out fake news. It also carries with his community as well.

 

Swtor, has over 10 million registered accounts i believe, whereas Reddit has only in the thousands. Thing is only a niche uses either forums, while not even caring for the other.

[Fallensouls]

So far I think this thread has been debunked.

[PiiTarr]

Actually, I find the crowd over at the SWTOR Reddit much friendlier than some of the people here. The discussions I was able to have there were far more reasonable and friendly than some of the stuff that I have seen happen here.

 

Have you been using reddit long? I've found some extremely toxic posters there, including several who no longer post here. Some of their posts are deleted by the reddit moderators, others are not. I also see downvotes of posts relevant to the thread topic without any explanation, which is in no way, shape, or form "discussion."

 

IRL news stations, papers, scientists as well as researchers work on exactly the same basis; if you have a city of 250.000 people, they take 2.500 for example and poll them on a specific issue, using the results as a general estimate to how people in that city might feel. It is a practice that happens daily, because it's impractical to poll an entire city of 250.000 people.

 

IRL, they have strict controls to keep the polls scientific. The website you used, strawpoll, uses an IP tracking system to try to avoid multiple votes by the same person or persons, but is widely known to be ineffective if someone were wanting to get around it to skew results. We've seen that happen before with other polls created by other players on these very forums.

[Kiesu]

Have you been using reddit long? I've found some extremely toxic posters there, including several who no longer post here. Some of their posts are deleted by the reddit moderators, others are not. I also see downvotes of posts relevant to the thread topic without any explanation, which is in no way, shape, or form "discussion."

Have you been using swtor forums long? I've found some extremely toxic posters here, including several who no longer post here. Some of them are banned, some of their posts are deleted by the forum moderators, others are not. I also see offtopic personal bickerings on posts unrelevant to the thread topic without any explanation, which is in no way, shape, or form "discussion."

 

This is the internet man, you just described half of the posting boards on the internet.

Edited October 21, 2018 by Kiesu

[Ylliarus]

Have you been using swtor forums long? I've found some extremely toxic posters here, including several who no longer post here. Some of them are banned, some of their posts are deleted by the forum moderators, others are not. I also see offtopic personal bickerings on posts unrelevant to the thread topic without any explanation, which is in no way, shape, or form "discussion."

 

This is the internet man, you just described half of the posting boards on the internet.

 

Amen. The SWTOR forums are no less toxic than Reddit, the sheer hostility here is astounding. At least on Reddit I've had good discussions with people where reasonable arguments were exchanged politely. Here it doesn't take much to light a fire that makes the Tsar Bomba look like a candlelight.

 

So far I think this thread has been debunked.

 

What a worthwhile addition to the discussion. Instead of responding to the points I made in response to your post, you reply with spite. Clearly you're not here for civilised debate but only to grieve people.

 

Despite the fact that several other people and myself included pointed out to you I had already admitted this thread was made in a spur of the moment decision, you keep spitefully bringing it up. Such behaviour comes close to bullying and garners you no favour. I have admitted four times now this thread was a mistake but you keep attacking those who disagree with you. That is extremely troublesome behaviour.

Edited October 21, 2018 by Ylliarus

[Ylliarus]

IRL, they have strict controls to keep the polls scientific. The website you used, strawpoll, uses an IP tracking system to try to avoid multiple votes by the same person or persons, but is widely known to be ineffective if someone were wanting to get around it to skew results. We've seen that happen before with other polls created by other players on these very forums.

 

And I keep repeating time and time again that it is in no way meant as THE ULTIMATE representation of ALL the players in the game, I keep repeating myself it COULD BE an ESTIMATE REPRESENTATION of how players MIGHT GENERALLY FEEL about the subject in question. I keep repeating that IT DOES NOT SPEAK FOR THE ENTIRE PLAYERBASE, but people conveniently read over that.

 

With no other means at my disposal I used Strawpoll to get a potential general estimate, because sadly I do not have the means to poll every single player in the game. But I have a feeling that even if Bioware would do a poll and the results wouldn't appeal to some of the posters here they'd keep screaming "rigged" or find excuses to not have accept it because it wouldn't align with their thoughts.

Edited October 21, 2018 by Ylliarus

[casirabit]

And I keep repeating time and time again that it is in no way meant as THE ULTIMATE representation of ALL the players in the game, I keep repeating myself it COULD BE an ESTIMATE REPRESENTATION of how players MIGHT GENERALLY FEEL about the subject in question. I keep repeating that IT DOES NOT SPEAK FOR THE ENTIRE PLAYERBASE, but people conveniently read over that.

 

With no other means at my disposal I used Strawpoll to get a potential general estimate, because sadly I do not have the means to poll every single player in the game. But I have a feeling that even if Bioware would do a poll and the results wouldn't appeal to some of the posters here they'd keep screaming "rigged" or find excuses to not have accept it because it wouldn't align with their thoughts.

 

Why bring up the polls anyways? It is just going to be arguments about it anyways. We will find out whether this is a good idea or not when it is released.

[Ylliarus]

Why bring up the polls anyways? It is just going to be arguments about it anyways. We will find out whether this is a good idea or not when it is released.

 

Well, it's mainly others who bring up the polls to which I respond. I've already stopped bringing them up myself unless someone else brings them up. But I agree, we should patiently wait and see what happens.

 

In my opinion we should follow Dasty's advice, take a glass of martini and sip it (no martini for you if you're underage tho!) while playing the game

[akdonkey]

From a Sith Prospective you finally have your own Power Base. A good Sith must have a Power Base. One would assume that Jedi also Develop a Similar Power Base. One could guess the other classes could gain a following for what ever reasons. In the Star Wars Universe many classes could end up with a small army.

[PiiTarr]

Have you been using swtor forums long? I've found some extremely toxic posters here, including several who no longer post here. Some of them are banned, some of their posts are deleted by the forum moderators, others are not. I also see offtopic personal bickerings on posts unrelevant to the thread topic without any explanation, which is in no way, shape, or form "discussion."

 

This is the internet man, you just described half of the posting boards on the internet.

 

Did you read the part of OP's post I quoted, or did you simply read my reply?

[PiiTarr]

Amen. The SWTOR forums are no less toxic than Reddit, the sheer hostility here is astounding.

 

I never said they were less toxic than reddit. You made the claim reddit was less toxic and I countered that by pointing out it was just as toxic.

[PiiTarr]

And I keep repeating time and time again that it is in no way meant as THE ULTIMATE representation of ALL the players in the game, I keep repeating myself it COULD BE an ESTIMATE REPRESENTATION of how players MIGHT GENERALLY FEEL about the subject in question. I keep repeating that IT DOES NOT SPEAK FOR THE ENTIRE PLAYERBASE, but people conveniently read over that.

 

With no other means at my disposal I used Strawpoll to get a potential general estimate, because sadly I do not have the means to poll every single player in the game. But I have a feeling that even if Bioware would do a poll and the results wouldn't appeal to some of the posters here they'd keep screaming "rigged" or find excuses to not have accept it because it wouldn't align with their thoughts.

 

I never claimed any of those things.

[Ylliarus]

I never claimed any of those things.

 

No but others did seem to ignore all the things I said about the polls in question, I guess your post was the unlucky one where I "exploded" a little, if you will. Perhaps not exploded but more that it was the drop that made me fall into explanation mode

[Bonzenaattori]

you literally debunked nothing. And none of your arguments have any substantial foundation behind it. It's just trying to explain a story angle. nothing more, that doesn't really debunk anything at all, otherwise this would've happened in iokath and you wouldn't have even been given a choice

 

It's just another typical BW "this is the story now. get used to it."

Edited October 21, 2018 by Bonzenaattori

[Ylliarus]

you literally debunked nothing. And none of your arguments have any substantial foundation behind it. It's just trying to explain a story angle. nothing more, that doesn't really debunk anything at all, otherwise this would've happened in iokath and you wouldn't have even been given a choice

 

I've already admitted that in multiple posts in this thread and admitted that it was a spur of the moment decision to make this thread. Don't merely respond to the title and OP but also read the rest of the discussion:

 

I guess the saying "sleep a night on it" is right again because today I look at this thread and think "why Yll, why...". I totally realise and recognise the error of making a seperate thread for this when the other thread was perfectly fine. So I admit, it was a mistake to make this thread so I do apologise for cluttering the forums!

 

I will admit however that it led to some very interesting reads in here though which point that indeed, the argument isn't as debunked as I thought it was

 

 

 

No, no, you're totally correct here, it was a mistake of me to make an entirely different thread about it. Yesterday it seemed logical and today I look at it and ask myself what the hell I was thinking. It's not necessarily that I made this thread because you disagreed with me, but yesterday I was convinced the specific post needed limelight and exposure. Today I see that it was completely not necessary.

 

Let's blame it on my enthusiasm, hype and surge of excitement for the new story update, albeit I recognise that's no excuse of course.

[Bonzenaattori]

I've already admitted that in multiple posts in this thread and admitted that it was a spur of the moment decision to make this thread. Don't merely respond to the title and OP but also read the rest of the discussion:

 

touchy