Huttball ( Vandin ) PVP map - feedback...?

[Lhancelot]

And they refuse to tell us if it is intended or a bug.

If it’s intended, all they have to say is sorry we omitted it from the patch notes by mistake.

If it’s a bug, all they have to say is it’s a bug that will be fixed in a future update.

 

The fact that they have stayed silent and omitted it from the pts and patch notes, seems to say to me, they knew it would be a poorly received change and didn’t want to argue with us about it because they “know what’s best”.

 

There was no community consolation at all and no reply to all of the requests for confirmation. I don’t think we will ever see it fixed or reversed and I doubt they’ll ever broach the subject.

 

They’ve activated their overpowered DCD called :

 

Bioware Ostrich manoeuvre

Allows Devs and Musco the ability to selectively stick their heads in the sand for certain topics. Effectively filtering out all discussion or references to a topic as if it doesn’t exist.

Activation time : 0 secs

Does not effect GCD

Duration : infinity

 

Remember when our community manager went on hiatus for a bit, how communication actually improved? I find that ironic.

 

I mean i get it. No one likes to deal with criticisms, but when you created the situation which they did with these changes in huttball, then face the music.

 

What they fail to understand is when you ignore a problem or criticisms, they only snowball. They get worse. You can't ignore problems and pretend they don't exist and expect people to remain courteous and polite.

 

By ignoring problems and people's concerns; this is rude. It's natural to greet rudeness with resentment. This isn't complicated, folks. Stop being rude and respond to people's posts occasionally and maybe people will have a better attitude in the end.

[KendraP]

Remember when our community manager went on hiatus for a bit, how communication actually improved? I find that ironic.

 

I mean i get it. No one likes to deal with criticisms, but when you created the situation which they did with these changes in huttball, then face the music.

 

What they fail to understand is when you ignore a problem or criticisms, they only snowball. They get worse. You can't ignore problems and pretend they don't exist and expect people to remain courteous and polite.

 

By ignoring problems and people's concerns; this is rude. It's natural to greet rudeness with resentment. This isn't complicated, folks. Stop being rude and respond to people's posts occasionally and maybe people will have a better attitude in the end.

 

Ouch man! But right 100%

[Storm-Cutter]

Back to Vandin,

 

• The best strategy seems to be grab ball, throw or run to pit, throw to stealth who is waiting on goal-line with most or all CDs up.
   
  
• Repeat.
  

 

So basically all the clever fire traps and acid traps and acid pools and electro traps are completely bypassed.

 

The heal spawns at the edge are usually ignored. The jet blasts used infrequently, and the grapple points only ued to get oneself out of the pit without running up the ramp.

 

Not sure who designed this, but it wasn't any significant improvement over original Huttball.

Edited November 14, 2018 by Storm-Cutter

[Raansu]

For the love of all that is good BW please fix this map. Too many traps, they last too long and the map pops way too damn much. Give me OG huttball any day, but this vandin map is horrible.

[Rion_Starkiller]

After playing this map ad nauseum, I now like it better than OG Huttball.

 

Disclaimer: I play scoundrels and sages a LOT.

[RACATW]

After playing this map ad nauseum, I now like it better than OG Huttball.

 

Disclaimer: I play scoundrels and sages a LOT.

 

Yep, probably because its basically made for sages / ops.

 

Youre not really going to see any great force pushes from juggs/guardians or pushbacks from snipers to land you in the fire or anything else for that matter.

 

Personally I am really tired of the map popping 4 out of 5 wzs in a row and it's making me not want to even queue.

Edited November 20, 2018 by RACATW

[Neulwen]

Yep, probably because its basically made for sages / ops.

 

Youre not really going to see any great force pushes from juggs/guardians or pushbacks from snipers to land you in the fire or anything else for that matter.

 

Personally I am really tired of the map popping 4 out of 5 wzs in a row and it's making me not want to even queue.

I main juggernaut and operative healer and I enjoy it on both of them. I can't push ppl into traps so well but I can jump around and push them off ledges. I think the strongest class for it is assassin tank. PTs are also strong. They can both jump and hook ppl into traps. Assassins in general are good, especially for getting the ball. I wouldn't say snipers and mercs are weak either. Very strong for controlling mid, and entrench and elenet have great use in any huttball. And marauders... marauders are not weak anywhere with their insane predation utility. All the classes have their strengths.

[RACATW]

I main juggernaut and operative healer and I enjoy it on both of them. I can't push ppl into traps so well but I can jump around and push them off ledges. I think the strongest class for it is assassin tank. PTs are also strong. They can both jump and hook ppl into traps. Assassins in general are good, especially for getting the ball. I wouldn't say snipers and mercs are weak either. Very strong for controlling mid, and entrench and elenet have great use in any huttball. And marauders... marauders are not weak anywhere with their insane predation utility. All the classes have their strengths.

 

Why would you want to push them into the pit? That's how you play vandin. You go into the pit and pass to stealthers.

Edited November 20, 2018 by RACATW

[Totemdancer]

Too many pops, too much desync, too many bugs.

 

Just remove the map till all of the above is fixed.

[Neulwen]

Why would you want to push them into the pit? That's how you play vandin. You go into the pit and pass to stealthers.

Push them off the goal line. And if they go on the ledges that means they don't have a stealther at the line.

Edited November 20, 2018 by Neulwen

[RACATW]

Push them off the goal line. And if they go on the ledges that means they don't have a stealther at the line.

 

So basically youre saying push people off the ledges so that they realize they shouldn't go on the ledges in the first place? And their stealthers runs over to the goal line for them to pass to from now on.

 

 

Anyway pushing them off the goal line is nothing new really but won't help if they have more than one person up there. Especially considering you have to wait for one or more people to unstealth.

Edited November 20, 2018 by RACATW

[Raansu]

So basically youre saying push people off the ledges so that they realize they shouldn't go on the ledges in the first place? And their stealthers runs over to the goal line for them to pass to from now on.

 

 

Anyway pushing them off the goal line is nothing new really but won't help if they have more than one person up there. Especially considering you have to wait for one or more people to unstealth.

 

The stealther thing could be solved by putting like small damage output in the endzone. Pulls you out of stealth and prevents camping.

[RACATW]

The stealther thing could be solved by putting like small damage output in the endzone. Pulls you out of stealth and prevents camping.

 

Would be nice but stealthers would just hide under the ledges and restealth right after. Unless it was dots and kept them unstealthable until they go into the pit.

 

Not like they would have to though unless it was significant damage. Since they could just hide under the ledges to wait for the ball carrier as well.

Edited November 20, 2018 by RACATW

[Neulwen]

So basically youre saying push people off the ledges so that they realize they shouldn't go on the ledges in the first place? And their stealthers runs over to the goal line for them to pass to from now on.

 

 

Anyway pushing them off the goal line is nothing new really but won't help if they have more than one person up there. Especially considering you have to wait for one or more people to unstealth.

Just means there's less enemies in mid competing for the ball. Just control mid and it doesn't matter if they got stealthers in our line. Not like stealthing in goalline is new either ^^.

[RACATW]

Just means there's less enemies in mid competing for the ball. Just control mid and it doesn't matter if they got stealthers in our line. Not like stealthing in goalline is new either ^^.

 

You're joking right? I've seen that work 1 time out of 20. The team that is playing objectives better almost always has the better deathmatchers. (Unless their entire team is deathmatching)

Edited November 20, 2018 by RACATW

[Neulwen]

You're joking right? I've seen that work 1 time out of 20. The team that is playing objectives better almost always has the better deathmatchers. (Unless their entire team is deathmatching)

 

What are you even on about? How does this imply that vandin was made for ops and sages and that juggs are bad for it?

Deathmatchers? If the team is clueless and just fights in their own pit or goal line it doesn't matter what class one plays... Of course the team who plays better objective wise will win. Controlling mid does not necessarily mean deathmatching. Assassins for example, as mentioned, are great at getting the ball in mid. Snipers too.

Edited November 20, 2018 by Neulwen

[RACATW]

What are you even on about? How does this imply that vandin was made for ops and sages and that juggs are bad for it?

Deathmatchers? If the team is clueless and just fights in their own pit or goal line it doesn't matter what class one plays... Of course the team who plays better objective wise will win. Controlling mid does not necessarily mean deathmatching. Assassins for example, as mentioned, are great at getting the ball in mid. Snipers too.

 

Control of mid is obtained by killing the other team. aka deathmatching. No, not everyone repeatedly spams cap on objectives (we're not all pacifists and bad objective players)

 

Stealthers = ops + roll & sages can use their knockback very easily there (it's just the right distance in every way) and its pretty easy to use pull

 

The premise of my argument in my OP wasn't directed at you and wasn't terribly thought out aside from giving feedback about what was fun for me personally and how the map was made and with who in mind. It's not fun for me as a jugg anymore as I worked pretty hard to understand how to use my force push 'just so' into fire/acid traps on huttball maps.

 

Push wasn't the same as my pt's pull where I can pull someone from 40m~ away into fire repeatedly every time they try to grab the ball. But pt pays for it by being such a crappy class to play (super weak dcds).

Edited November 20, 2018 by RACATW

[Totemdancer]

What are you even on about? How does this imply that vandin was made for ops and sages and that juggs are bad for it?

Deathmatchers? If the team is clueless and just fights in their own pit or goal line it doesn't matter what class one plays... Of course the team who plays better objective wise will win. Controlling mid does not necessarily mean deathmatching. Assassins for example, as mentioned, are great at getting the ball in mid. Snipers too.

 

There is “death matching” all over the map and “Death Matching” to hold mid.

If you can’t control mid or compete in mid, then you will never get the ball.

It’s up to the guys mid to death match, but only if they are also focused on controlling the ball spawn and grab it as soon as it does.

 

I’ve seen both teams of people death matching in mid and the ball spawns and everyone at mid ignores it.

I’ve literally run all the way back to mid from scoring to pick up the ball because everyone mid is too busy killing ****.

Hutt Ball is a team map. If you are a selfish player who only cares about their total dps and not helping the team, then you are doing it wrong. I would even go as far as saying some people like that can’t play HB at all because the concept is too hard and so they do the easiest thing and death match. They are not good players and people who justify death matching under the wrong circumstances to hide their lack of skill playing HB make me laugh.

 

I consider myself a reasonably good HB player. But even I’m still finding some new tactics or tricks after 7 years. HB is fluid, if you have good teams it is extremely competitive and some “will” do a **** load of damage and healing.

HB becomes a real art when you learn to out think your opponents when both sides are good at combat. That’s where knowing your class and it’s role or it’s specialty in HB really makes the difference and makes a good HB player.

Any fool can death match all over the map. If you want to do that, then go play arena or organise some fighting in Rishi SHs.

 

What amazes me is there are some real basic strategies and tactics in all HB maps. They aren’t hard to learn or to counter them. But people still have difficulty with them.

 

If you see a team that keeps running the pit, there is a good chance they have someone in the end zone. I’ve seen non stealth opponents just standing there waiting and no defenders getting rid of them by blowing them off or negating the pass by stunning.

I see people white bar people before traps.

Whole teams that respawn and just fight in their end zone while the other team has a daisy chain of players to their line and no opposition.

If the other team is 90% likely to score and 3 of you can’t stop them, then get back to mid fast for the ball respawn.

If you see some Guardian/Jugg/Mara keep getting the ball (original HB) and just run to the second platform and leap up to the ramp and blade blitz to the line, DONT STAND THERE. I’ve literally scored 6 goals in one match by doing that.

If you see a Sorc keep pulling someone from a specific position, pressure the Sorc, kill them or make them move away from that position.

 

None of this is rocket science (even though you’d think it was for some people). It’s the most basic premises of HB pvp. But it seems people would rather b***h and moan about how the other team has an operative, Sorc or Jugg than use their brains. Yes some classes are better in HB to run or support the ball, but all can do it and all can play a role in helping to win. If no one on my team will run the ball or know how to score, I will even do it on my sniper and I’ve scored many times (before the stupid “blow up” timer was added).

Some classes offer support like dps at mid to control it. But it always blows my mind when I see 2-3 snipers on a perch dpsing everyone but the ball carrier and the opponent runs right past them like they aren’t even there to go on and score unopposed. Then at the end of the match those same snipers will point to their dps and say how good they are and it’s everyone else’s fault that they lost. It’s obviously not just snipers, it’s every class that does it and it’s usually those people who b***h and moan the worst when they lose.

 

If you are a player (broadly dierected, not at the OP) who expects to win and let others carry you, then you have no right to tell those people they didn’t do enough dps or it’s their fault you lost. I’ve scored all six goals in Quesh Ball with zero dps, then got told I was a **** player and those that death match carried me.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Don't let Totem fool you. I've played with her. I didn't even know objective points could get that high . It'd take me like 3 weeks to get that many objective points. She scored like 6 times in a row, was totally insane. Edited November 22, 2018 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[MandoMetal]

Do not want

[Neulwen]

stupid “blow up” timer

Agree with everything you wrote except the timer being stupid ^^.

[TrixxieTriss]

Agree with everything you wrote except the timer being stupid ^^.

 

It’s a bit hard to carry a team who refuses to pick up the ball or take passes when the ball blows up in your face.

Now its impossible to get close to scoring or winning when your team won’t try. Under the current system you may as well requeue when you see that happening because there is nothing you can do.

[Neulwen]

It’s a bit hard to carry a team who refuses to pick up the ball or take passes when the ball blows up in your face.

Now its impossible to get close to scoring or winning when your team won’t try. Under the current system you may as well requeue when you see that happening because there is nothing you can do.

More or less but that is not the fault of the system. This system should stimulate people to play more objectives, provided there is value in winning. So if anything, wins need to be made more rewarding versus losses, something akin to what is being done to the ranked arena weekly. Games should not be balanced around people not doing objectives. Telling ppl what to do can also work sometimes. Sometimes there are new players who don't know. Also I think that when the cc break bug gets fixed and when vandin pop rate gets normalised, there will be more people willing to play ball.

Edited November 23, 2018 by Neulwen

[Totemdancer]

More or less but that is not the fault of the system. This system should stimulate people to play more objectives, provided there is value in winning. So if anything, wins need to be made more rewarding versus losses, something akin to what is being done to the ranked arena weekly. Games should not be balanced around people not doing objectives. Telling ppl what to do can also work sometimes. Sometimes there are new players who don't know. Also I think that when the cc break bug gets fixed and when vandin pop rate gets normalised, there will be more people willing to play ball.

 

(Warning : unintended long post incoming)

 

Optimism. I forget what that’s like in this game after 7 years. It’s good to see you’ve still got some.

 

Everything you’ve said is true and been said over and over for years. But Bioware don’t or won’t listen to feed back from players who play lots of pvp (not the influencers program) about making people try to win in pvp.

Myself and others have made so many easy to implement recommendations that don’t harshly penalise people who are new or teams that get stuck with newbies. But been totally ignored by Bioware in favour of their influencers.

After awhile you just give up hope that anything positive will happen to improve the situation. All I’ve seen for the last 3-4 years is it getting worse, to the point that lvl 70 reg pvp is worse than lowbies (if it pops)

 

Even if they normalise the Vandin pops, you still have to contend with the terrible and nearly unplayable desync and bugs. I already play from Australia with huge lag. So when the desync is this bad that even US and EU players are complaining, it is extremely bad for people with high lag. Unplayable is my definition.

And it’s not just Vandin that it happens in. It happens in all maps, especially Quesh Ball and normal HB.

Fixing desync should be their number one priority in the game at the moment. Not changing the gear system or making more grind. People will stay and play pvp for longer if the desync and bugs are fixed and gearing is fair.

 

I recently listened to a podcast with Musco by some influences who blew hot air up his *** the whole interview.

They tried to make light of the desync and basically said we were all whining about it on the forums and the live stream for no reason. One of them even said he didn’t know what desync was and who cares (laughing the whole time). At which point they all laughed along.

When Musco finally said some meaningful about it, he insinuated it won’t be fixed anytime soon or maybe not at all.

That alone tells us they don’t care enough about it or they think it’s not a problem. It must be good being able to play in the office where you don’t experience it

After listening to these guys for 30-40mins I thought I was going to throw up from the Musco and Bioware lovefest. From their point of view the game was perfect and Bioware and Musco could do no wrong, Musco even said they got the interview about the new 5.10 because they are their number one influencer (or some such), I’d be surprised if Musco didn’t float out of the building after all the hot air being blown up “you know what” and about by the interviewers.

If these are the “influencers” that Bioware listen to and take feed back from, it’s no wonder the game is in such a poor state.

 

I’ve no optimism left after the gear for 5.10 was announced the other day, I know they might still make changes to it. But they won’t be good changes to fix the grind or the problems it will cause.

Bioware will be Bioware and double down like they always do. It will be a **** system with lots of bugs and we’ll also get more desync from it in pvp. Just like we’ve gotten from every patch they’ve done since 5.0.

Then they’ll go on holidays for 4 weeks without fixing anything. They’ll come back mid January to say their data shows they need to make changes (all the things we are currently telling them is bad). It will be the same old spiel of how they don’t want to make big changes and will just make tiny ones because they want to wait and see (not wanting to admit they ****ed up). Then it will take till early spring and that will turn into late spring/early summer because they’ve got new content (tiny release) and they’ll do it at the same time.

 

It’s the same old, same old story every year and we all get suckered in because we hope they will change or we have optimism (that hasn’t been eroded yet) or we are masochists with a swtor addiction (that’s why I’m still here).

Those that do leave or can force themselves to break the addiction must feel a weight lifted off their shoulders. Sadly for the game, more and more people are choosing this route because they’ve finally had enough of the same ******** merry-go-wheel from Bioware.

It’s why we only have 2 servers in the US that are now based on the east coast to save money.

It’s why only DM is the only viable server in the EU for pug group activities.

It’s why US servers are basically ghost towns for pvp outside of main primetime.

It’s why primetime is shrinking in size.

It’s why some people have already started demanding mergers again.

 

We will see even more people leave over 5.10 (just like 5.0) Even Snave has said it (and hinted at leaving) on the PTS because of the more intensive and stupid grind they are adding to it.

Mark my words, by February we will have even less people than now and more players will be demanding mergers because they can’t play group activities outside of prime time or if they aren’t in a guild. Bioware know this and it’s why they are pushing this guild thing with 5.10. They will delay mergers for too long (once it’s apparent they are needed) and more people will continue to leave. Eventually this will lead to them merging ALL servers into one on the east coast (which has been their long term plan for mergers all along, Its why they moved the west coast to east in the last merge)

 

The game is dying. It’s not dead. But how much longer can it continue if Bioware don’t give a **** about the problems or player enjoyment.

 

Sorry I got so off track with this post. But I can’t play at the moment due to excessive lag and it gives me time to pause and think about why the game is the way it is.

[Neulwen]

I have more Vandin feedback ^^:

The stun traps are annoying. The stun lasts too long, and if we get stunned by it right before it is turned off, we are still stunned until it is next turned on, and so we get double duration stunned. The stun should be shorter. Maybe half the duration.