Compassion, Healing or Love for the Broken Dark Princess: Vaylin Appreciation <3

[MrJunay]

Vaylin, it seems, is also a blonde, just paints her hair in a dark color. She has a gothic style, judging by the black nails.

Hardly she was so dark because of age.

[Eshvara]

It was probably a symbolic thing too, even if it was because of aging. Arcann changed his looks after "redemption" Vaylin became "darker" after she became worse.

[Paulsutherland]

Also her habit of killing lackys for fun. Please don't misunderstand, I'm not trashing Vaylin. But she takes pleasure in destruction, while Arcann does not. He even respects some adversaries.

 

I wouldn't say that, the Scions were a branch of Zakuulan Knights and he does kill the Scions because of their prophecies.

[gamephil]

Eh, I put in spoiler tags because it's not all love for Vaylin, but discussion or debate about the story around her and Arcann. So skip if you want.

 

 

 

I don't think we should forget that Vaylin had a part in bombing the planets as well, she carried it out willingly and took videos of it because it looked so pretty.

 

I didn't think we were. But, seriously, she was broken by monsters who decided to torture any empathy she might have had out of her (torturing people in front of her and punishing her if she felt anything for them) and do dark side rituals to her to control her. No one is denying that she's not a GOOD person, but after the horrors that were done to her? I just don't know. She was a troubled child with far too much power, tortured because she was troubled, and controlled in ways we have no real world equivalent of. I don't view her as bombing them "willingly" because any semblance of choice was taken from her years before.

 

That doesn't mean that she's not a monster. It just means being a monster was not her choice.

 

Also her habit of killing lackys for fun. Please don't misunderstand, I'm not trashing Vaylin. But she takes pleasure in destruction, while Arcann does not. He even respects some adversaries.

 

He killed fully half his knights and quipped that the remainder would be "motivated". That kind of statement doesn't leave me thinking it didn't amuse him, even if he didn't laugh. He may have ordered the bombing of five worlds out of calculation, which is every bit as monstrous as doing so from glee. From Vaylin's reaction ("You're going to say something wonderful"), he'd given such orders before. Or he did it from seething rage and madness, which isn't any better but leaves me more sympathetic, considering what I assume Valkorion did to someone that WASN'T his favorite.

 

Just because he didn't seem to enjoy it doesn't mean it's not awful, not insane.

 

If you choose to surrender to contain Valkorion, the creep pops out of your head, says a few words, and Arcann throws all that away and attacks. Like someone else we know. The difference between them is paper thin, he simply presents differently. They're both awful and in very similar ways. Him not laughing about it (and keep in mind that her laughter is, "The sound of a spirit breaking". Ugh, I hate you, Jarak) doesn't change that.

 

I view them as close enough to the same. That's why I'm good with saving him, because he was also broken, just not as much on screen. If he did those things in his own right mind, though, he's a monster who should be dead or rotting in prison somewhere. I like to view him more positively than that. Just not more positively, or less, than I view her.

 

Although, if I did view them differently, I'd probably be happier, since then the divergence of their stories wouldn't bug me so much.

 

 

Edited February 28, 2018 by gamephil
Clarity

[MrJunay]

Valky did everything possible to turn his children in monsters. That was his goal. He wanted Outlander (or another "new body", and with him Valky himself) to look like the savior of the galaxy (and took the Eternal Throne).

A fairly primitive plan for someone who lived for thousands of years, but it worked.

Arcann and Vaylin really turned into monsters and obediently danced to a tune of their beloved daddy. Arcann was saved only thanks to the Senya, but no one saved Vaylin.

They are both monsters and victims.

[DuskIsNotAmused]

Eh, I put in spoiler tags because it's not all love for Vaylin, but discussion or debate about the story around her and Arcann. So skip if you want.

 

 

 

 

 

I didn't think we were. But, seriously, she was broken by monsters who decided to torture any empathy she might have had out of her (torturing people in front of her and punishing her if she felt anything for them) and do dark side rituals to her to control her. No one is denying that she's not a GOOD person, but after the horrors that were done to her? I just don't know. She was a troubled child with far too much power, tortured because she was troubled, and controlled in ways we have no real world equivalent of. I don't view her as bombing them "willingly" because any semblance of choice was taken from her years before.

 

That doesn't mean that she's not a monster. It just means being a monster was not her choice.

 

 

 

He killed fully half his knights and quipped that the remainder would be "motivated". That kind of statement doesn't leave me thinking it didn't amuse him, even if he didn't laugh. He may have ordered the bombing of five worlds out of calculation, which is every bit as monstrous as doing so from glee. From Vaylin's reaction ("You're going to say something wonderful"), he'd given such orders before. Or he did it from seething rage and madness, which isn't any better but leaves me more sympathetic, considering what I assume Valkorion did to someone that WASN'T his favorite.

 

Just because he didn't seem to enjoy it doesn't mean it's not awful, not insane.

 

If you choose to surrender to contain Valkorion, the creep pops out of your head, says a few words, and Arcann throws all that away and attacks. Like someone else we know. The difference between them is paper thin, he simply presents differently. They're both awful and in very similar ways. Him not laughing about it (and keep in mind that her laughter is, "The sound of a spirit breaking". Ugh, I hate you, Jarak) doesn't change that.

 

I view them as close enough to the same. That's why I'm good with saving him, because he was also broken, just not as much on screen. If he did those things in his own right mind, though, he's a monster who should be dead or rotting in prison somewhere. I like to view him more positively than that. Just not more positively, or less, than I view her.

 

Although, if I did view them differently, I'd probably be happier, since then the divergence of their stories wouldn't bug me so much.

 

 

 

You've pretty much summarized how I feel on quite a few points (Except far more eloquently ), They're both broken they got to that point through different means but in the end the result was the same, though how they show it is different. I think that poor Vaylin was further down the rabbit hole because of the accelerated way her father broke her, but does that make her any less worth saving no it doesn't not even a little bit. Frankly I would have liked the chance (It wouldn't have had to succeed, just the chance) to help Thexan, Arcann and Vaylin people can say it's unrealistic if they want but that shouldn't stop us from trying.

 

There is something that confuses me though, Senya is always very vocal about wanting to save both of her children but she has many more actual interactions to this effect with Vaylin. But towards the end of KotET from what I've heard/ seen she just seems to give up on her Arcann seems more upset about it than she does, I don't understand

 

P.s. I also hate that your forced to use her conditioning (at all, but also) in such a voyeuristic manner.

Edited February 28, 2018 by DuskIsNotAmused

[Paulsutherland]

Valky did everything possible to turn his children in monsters. That was his goal. He wanted Outlander (or another "new body", and with him Valky himself) to look like the savior of the galaxy (and took the Eternal Throne).

 

But it became known the Emperor was in the Outlanders head, so if that was his plan, the Scions ruined it. In fact during the palace chapter when Arcann, Vaylin and the Outlander let out lines about Valkorian still being active while broadcasting to the rest of the galaxy, likely didn't help either.

[MrJunay]

There is something that confuses me though, Senya is always very vocal about wanting to save both of her children but she has many more actual interactions to this effect with Vaylin. But towards the end of KotET from what I've heard/ seen she just seems to give up on her Arcann seems more upset about it than she does, I don't understand

Yes, it looks very strange. The whole trailer KOTET was devoted to the relations between Senya and Vaylin, but there is almost nothing in the game! Senya does nothing to save her daughter. Let she did not succeed (if it's necessary for the plot), but she should have tried.

[gamephil]

I'm long-winded today. So, BAU.

 

 

There is something that confuses me though, Senya is always very vocal about wanting to save both of her children but she has many more actual interactions to this effect with Vaylin. But towards the end of KotET from what I've heard/ seen she just seems to give up on her Arcann seems more upset about it than she does, I don't understand

 

I think it comes down to Senya waking up to Vaylin breaking herself. She has sensed that there is nothing left of her to save. To me, that's, let's call it sub-optimal (I hate hate hate it), but I think they were rushed by that point. I have no problem with, say, Luke telling us, "There's still good in him" because of his superpowers, but the reverse does not feel right. Still, Vaylin keeps trying to kill Senya, personally, and Arcann never did. Not saying that excuses giving up (YMMV), exactly, but it does make it harder for Senya to help.

 

I hope I'm not repeating myself on this thread, but I would have left this story behind a year ago, if Arcann and Senya had simply given her one more chance (and the Outlander had given her one that wasn't an appeal to reason) before she tries to kill them all. I get that they may have been too hurt themselves to do so, but all things considered, I just would have liked it better. I don't like the story they chose in the best of times, but those tiny changes would have made it more tolerable.

 

P.s. I also hate that your forced to use her conditioning (at all, but also) in such a voyeuristic manner.

 

Yeah, I have views on that, along with other ways we're forced to interact with these characters. For Vaylin, I would have liked if the Outlander can simply say, "You can still be saved", to which she responds, "I never wanted to be". After the unfortunate death, I would have liked a real choice: Rather than, "You sick, twisted..."/"Now you'll suffer"/"I don't care", the first one could be replaced by the, admittedly somewhat cliched, "I know what you went through, but he/she is the last. I'm sorry." Having two responses like they gave us was just unnecessary.

 

Like I said, I don't like the story beats they chose, but it would not have been difficult to mollify me.

 

Edited February 28, 2018 by gamephil

[DuskIsNotAmused]

I'm long-winded today. So, BAU.

 

 

 

 

I think it comes down to Senya waking up to Vaylin breaking herself. She has sensed that there is nothing left of her to save. To me, that's, let's call it sub-optimal (I hate hate hate it), but I think they were rushed by that point. I have no problem with, say, Luke telling us, "There's still good in him" because of his superpowers, but the reverse does not feel right. Still, Vaylin keeps trying to kill Senya, personally, and Arcann never did. Not saying that excuses giving up (YMMV), exactly, but it does make it harder for Senya to help.

 

I hope I'm not repeating myself on this thread, but I would have left this story behind a year ago, if Arcann and Senya had simply given her one more chance (and the Outlander had given her one that wasn't an appeal to reason) before she tries to kill them all. I get that they may have been too hurt themselves to do so, but all things considered, I just would have liked it better. I don't like the story they chose in the best of times, but those tiny changes would have made it more tolerable.

 

 

 

Yeah, I have views on that, along with other ways we're forced to interact with these characters. For Vaylin, I would have liked if the Outlander can simply say, "You can still be saved", to which she responds, "I never wanted to be". After the unfortunate death, I would have liked a real choice: Rather than, "You sick, twisted..."/"Now you'll suffer"/"I don't care", the first one could be replaced by the, admittedly somewhat cliched, "I know what you went through, but he/she is the last. I'm sorry." Having two responses like they gave us was just unnecessary.

 

Like I said, I don't like the story beats they chose, but it would not have been difficult to mollify me.

 

Yeah I've got to say there are several times when it feels like they gave responses that were basically shades of the same (Base game and expansions) the best you can manage is pick a class who's words/ inflections don't completely divert from your Pc's personality/ approach. Although there were some quests/ scenes that were really well developed for branching pathways. SWtOR is inconsistent, full of great stuff but inconsistent.

[fishpeople]

Yes, it looks very strange. The whole trailer KOTET was devoted to the relations between Senya and Vaylin, but there is almost nothing in the game! Senya does nothing to save her daughter. Let she did not succeed (if it's necessary for the plot), but she should have tried.

 

There was another trailer a few pages back with Senya narrating she would do whatever it would take to save Arcann and Vaylin from the darkness. When KOTET first came out I honestly expected Senya was going to die saving Vaylin, making a mothers sacrifice to save her daughter. As you said, nothing happened. Even in the final encounter the two of them just ignored the other.

[gamephil]

There was another trailer a few pages back with Senya narrating she would do whatever it would take to save Arcann and Vaylin from the darkness. When KOTET first came out I honestly expected Senya was going to die saving Vaylin, making a mothers sacrifice to save her daughter. As you said, nothing happened. Even in the final encounter the two of them just ignored the other.

 

And it might not even have to be similar to how she sacrificed herself for her son. The Outlander shows they are willing to show mercy. Before a decision can be made, Senya sees someone or something about to kill her youngest, and she acts without thinking and is mortally wounded. That breaks through the madness, so much of it being about how her own mother thinks she's a monster, which has just been proven wrong.

 

She still murders whoever or whatever just killed her mother, though. I doubt she'll be held to account for that one. Yes, it's been done. I'm OK with that.

 

Some format where the player can influence the result and Senya and Arcann live might be doable, also. Maybe they stress that they will act to save Vaylin, if there is an opportunity, and the Outlander just leaves them behind and takes Lana and Theron. And, of course, killing the whole family remains an option.

 

Such is life.

 

Edit: I just noticed that it parallels the scene on Arcann's flagship, just with a different ending. I'm OK with that, too.

 

Edit: No no no, the Outlander injures Vaylin and Valkorion prepares to pull her spirit to him. Senya steps in, saying something nasty to Valkorion, telling her daughter and the Outlander not to blow it, then dies in her daughter's place. He still got enough of Vaylin's power to do Chapter 9, and this also breaks her control of the Fleet. He brings Senya up to fight you in Chapter 9 instead. She looks at him and just breaks free because, "I just died for my daughter, I'm not going to work for you." Her children use the Holocron and join the fight. OK, I'm done. For now.

Edited February 28, 2018 by gamephil

[fishpeople]

And it might not even have to be similar to how she sacrificed herself for her son. The Outlander shows they are willing to show mercy. Before a decision can be made, Senya sees someone or something about to kill her youngest, and she acts without thinking and is mortally wounded. That breaks through the madness, so much of it being about how her own mother thinks she's a monster, which has just been proven wrong.

 

She still murders whoever or whatever just killed her mother, though. I doubt she'll be held to account for that one. Yes, it's been done. I'm OK with that.

 

Some format where the player can influence the result and Senya and Arcann live might be doable, also. Maybe they stress that they will act to save Vaylin, if there is an opportunity, and the Outlander just leaves them behind and takes Lana and Theron. And, of course, killing the whole family remains an option.

 

Such is life.

 

Edit: I just noticed that it parallels the scene on Arcann's flagship, just with a different ending. I'm OK with that, too.

 

Edit: No no no, the Outlander injures Vaylin and Valkorion prepares to pull her spirit to him. Senya steps in, saying something nasty to Valkorion, telling her daughter and the Outlander not to blow it, then dies in her daughter's place. He brings Senya up to fight you instead. She looks at him and just breaks free because, "I just died for my daughter, I'm not going to work for you." Her children use the Holocron and join the fight. OK, I'm done. For now.

 

That sounds great to me, if they really wanted to screw with us, they should of had Thexan appear at the end.

 

I think our best chances at getting Vaylin back are in that suggestion thread.

[gamephil]

That sounds great to me, if they really wanted to screw with us, they should of had Thexan appear at the end.

 

I think our best chances at getting Vaylin back are in that suggestion thread.

 

Yeah, I'm not meaning that they should re-write it, just musing on ways that could have worked. Something like the other thread is more plausible. I kind of want to save all three remaining family members, but if they gave us a choice I'd be OK with that. And it increases the replayability. instead of having only the two basic outcomes. By a lot if in addition to picking who lives we also got a choice of which version of them we get. DS Arcann and unchanged Vaylin for people that want to crush the galaxy.

 

You know who you are. Ah, well.

Edited February 28, 2018 by gamephil

[fishpeople]

If there would have been an option to get Vaylin that required me to make some dark side choices, I would have taken them in order to show Vaylin the light.

[Eshvara]

Did someone just say DS Arcann? Yes please! I love all the Arcann's but DS Arcann was always my favorite. Put him back on the throne and rampage over the galaxy!!

 

And of course Vaylin, my sister in law. I fully support this. 10/10 👌

 

I'm a total nutcase, I know.:rak_03:

 

 

Forgive me!

Edited February 28, 2018 by Eshvara

[gamephil]

Did someone just say DS Arcann? Yes please! I love all the Arcann's but DS Arcann was always my favorite. Put him back on the throne and rampage over the galaxy!!

 

And of course Vaylin, my sister in law. I fully support this. 10/10 👌

 

I'm a total nutcase, I know.:rak_03:

 

 

Forgive me!

 

It's all right. I was honestly hoping to put Senya on the throne. Most of my characters don't want it, Arcann already blew it (and outgrew it, really), and she is a member of the royal family who has learned from her mistakes. The Empress and her two healed children as High Justices would have suited me fine.

 

Or, for those so inclined, Arcann as High Justice while the Outlander escapes with Vaylin to wreak something, or no High Justice and you break DS Arcann out of the mental care facility and run off with him to wreck something.

Edited March 1, 2018 by gamephil

[Eshvara]

It's all right. I was honestly hoping to put Senya on the throne. Most of my characters don't want it, Arcann already blew it (and outgrew it, really), and she is a member of the royal family who has learned from her mistakes. The Empress and her two healed children as High Justices would have suited me fine.

 

Or, for those so inclined, Arcann as High Justice while the Outlander escapes with Vaylin to wreak something.

 

Heh, you worded that really nicely and I do like that setup a lot!

I'm talking from a DS perspective. xD

 

But yeah, the ideal image, if I have to be fair, would be yours! It's nice.

[DuskIsNotAmused]

It's all right. I was honestly hoping to put Senya on the throne. Most of my characters don't want it, Arcann already blew it (and outgrew it, really), and she is a member of the royal family who has learned from her mistakes. The Empress and her two healed children as High Justices would have suited me fine.

 

Or, for those so inclined, Arcann as High Justice while the Outlander escapes with Vaylin to wreak something, or no High Justice and you break DS Arcann out of the mental care facility and run off with him to wreck something.

-stares intently at shiny idea- ...I'll be here awhile move on .

[SootyTX]

Also her habit of killing lackys for fun. Please don't misunderstand, I'm not trashing Vaylin. But she takes pleasure in destruction, while Arcann does not. He even respects some adversaries.

 

First off, really like the concept you painted in the post a couple above this reply, I really think the way Vaylin was handled was ultimately extremely disappointing while Arcann, as a very generic bad guy, went through a mediocre (at best) forced redemption arc.

 

I think, though, judging Vaylin and Arcann under the same standards is unfair. While Arcann's childhood was brutal and obviously drove him down the path he went, Vaylin as a child discovered she had an ability she found incredible and fascinating, she clearly had no idea how to control. She was failed by her mother, and quite literally tortured into a state of insanity at her father's command through a combination of psychology, drugs and cybernetics. Arcann does not have that excuse - he was raised to be brutal, to devalue the lives of others but he was still rational.

 

Now, obviously the way The Force impacts Arcann is a complicating issue, as it is not the same as 'real life' and the corrupting nature of the Dark Side has to be accounted for in some way. But by that same token, the same influences impact Vaylin but in an even more extreme way, as she is more in tune with The Force and that very power has been internalized by her torture, creating a kind of constant reinforcement of that corruption (to me, anyway). Honestly its a wonder she is even coherent, that I think is a testament to her sheer force of will. But all that internal turmoil has to find release, which I feel is where her random acts of violence spring from. Driven not from any form of rational thought or desire to do a thing, simply from the need to find some form of release, however temporary, for the Darkness that has been forcibly contained within her.

 

And that is why a redemption arc for her would have been (would be, hopefully) absolutely fascinating - because she is so NOT like any character that's been redeemed (or has fallen) that we've ever seen. I think the way the writers ended her story (as it stands anyway) as just another power block for The Player to kill was such a disappointing waste.

[JakRoanin]

Again the last thing I want to happen in this thread is to put Arcann and Vaylin against each other. They might be siblings but they are individuals.

 

That said, I take your point and agree with it, but I would also argue that what broke inside Vaylin cannot be healed.

[gamephil]

That said, I take your point and agree with it, but I would also argue that what broke inside Vaylin cannot be healed.

 

I know that wasn't to me, and that is certainly the story they chose. I appreciate that you are sympathetic with her plight. I have specific problems with that story in general, that I won't go into here (or, won't go into again, since I slipped and talked about some of them already), and I find the presentation in this case to be horrifying in its assumptions, more so than the other dozens of times I've seen it before. But I am glad to have a thread that acknowledges what was done to her and has sympathy for her.

 

And, yes, let us not put the two against one another. People identified with Vaylin, people identified with Arcann, people wanted none, one, or both to be saved. Aside from that, though, I agree with Sooty. It was a waste.

Edited March 1, 2018 by gamephil

[Paulsutherland]

It's all right. I was honestly hoping to put Senya on the throne. Most of my characters don't want it, Arcann already blew it (and outgrew it, really), and she is a member of the royal family who has learned from her mistakes. The Empress and her two healed children as High Justices would have suited me fine.

 

Or, for those so inclined, Arcann as High Justice while the Outlander escapes with Vaylin to wreak something, or no High Justice and you break DS Arcann out of the mental care facility and run off with him to wreck something.

 

Sith Voodoo for Arcann too? or you mean corrupt the version we have to embrace the DS again? I like the bit at the top, giving Senya the throne would have been my ideal solution too.

[gamephil]

Sith Voodoo for Arcann too? or you mean corrupt the version we have to embrace the DS again? I like the bit at the top, giving Senya the throne would have been my ideal solution too.

 

I was just thinking that, had the story been richer with choices, that there might be a surviving DS Arcann. Even if Senya lived, but for whatever reason he still falls, but lives. That type of thing. So, alternate history stuff, not an actual thing that can happen at this point.

 

But Sith Voodoo or talking him into falling again (though I don't know why he'd put that mask back on) would be acceptable. B5 ref follows: If I were them, if I were the bad guy. No John.

 

Grousing follows.

 

 

I have written... a bit about Vaylin and my opinion of her fate, and especially how we are forced to interact with her. Let's just say that if we hadn't had a choice with Arcann and Senya, as well, the volume for them would have been similar. Especially the whole public execution as an LS choice even existing.

 

 

Edited March 1, 2018 by gamephil

[DuskIsNotAmused]

-Sighs- Why is it that appreciation threads always end up having ill favoured characters? In the Arcann thread it's Lana, In the Theron thread it's Arcann I don't understand. It's like the character becomes the cause for all the problems with the favoured one .

 

Edit:

Oh thats what I wanted to ask earlier, you know the whole Torian/ Vette/ Vaylin arc? Did you ever get the feeling it was designed to make the Odessen fight with Vaylin feel... less forced (I understand for some characters it wouldn't feel forced, but there are quite a few that it wouldn't really be in character for ?

Edited March 1, 2018 by DuskIsNotAmused