I believe it is, in fact. If it is not, then considering how blatant the clues are, they are purposely misleading us into thinking that is the case. This isn't some wild-eyed fan theory, between the two letters, the look, and everything, this is clearly what they want us to believe, or at least suspect. And, more, it is basically written as a way to make this tired old story of a mentally ill woman that was abused and tortured throughout her childhood and is therefore Evil, a woman that we were forced by the story to make kneel to her abuser ourselves, without a trace of regret, a woman we tortured, humiliated, and manipulated just as her abuser did, slightly less noxious. And I commend them for doing so. It doesn't mean she's coming back to the story. If Syl exited the story and was never seen again, that would be pretty decent closure, honestly. We got the opportunity, if we wanted it, to say we should have done better, and I feel that was the writers acknowledging their numerous mistakes. Personally, I'd like her back in some way, not as an enemy, not as Vitiate 2.0, but around. I don't see companions as followers but as allies, and we defeated her, and then we helped her, so I could see her joining us. I'd prefer it, it would finish the process of washing the foul taste of her original story away. I've never cared for "let her rest" for this, it implies that death is the only solution to her trauma, and that is a TERRIBLE message. But if she is alive and in the story, I really don't want it to be as someone we have to kill again.

A character with an extension to their story? Shara Jenn. I think how they handled her in Nathema was off. A brainwashed character that the Agent helped to free still sides with the Empire against her actual friend and dies for it? No, that's just too much. She faked her death, if she "died". She's supposed to be really smart, I could buy that, and that story annoys me. I'd like to see Risha and a few other of the class exclusive companions get some story beats, and also to become companions for any player that wants them. I could stand having the Sith from the Jedi Knight storyline around, but I suppose we already have Scourge. Malora seems to have been a lot of work never to see her again. Feels like a waste. Characters just to slap into the market with no story: I'd like to see Vaylin, because while I found her story grotesque and could stand to see it overturned, I don't think they have the chops to do it and too many people hated her specifically or the whole thing for more story. I'd kind of like Zhorrid so she can help me shoot Jadus in the face, if they ever bring him back. I don't necessarily think she needs more story.

Yeah, all of that would have been good, especially the idea of liberation, not necessarily redemption. I hate just putting in a me, too post but that was a great write up, of what went wrong and what could have been instead, that I had to.

I have grown very tired of these stories, but I tolerate them if there's anything good in them at all. There wasn't here. Mental illness being used to define a villain, abuse being used not to make a well-rounded character that you can interact with in various ways but instead just to make a character you have to kill, all the "too broken to live" nonsense, I could stand a lot less of. She shouldn't need to die because she's too broken, she should only die because she's bringing down the base and there's no other way, but after Senya's, "She's broken, I see that now", I just have no faith that's what the writers were going for. We should be allowed to consistently and completely reject the abuse rhetoric we hear from Valkorion, and Lana (or it revealed the monster, bull puckey, Beniko, way to support her abusive dad and abusers everywhere who use the same argument to justify themselves, but thanks for trying, I guess). And then they make us do the same ourselves, without remorse, use her abuse against her, manipulate and humiliate her, and then they dare to give us an LS line about how we gave her every chance? Here and there they did better. Chapter 9 was solid. It doesn't make up for the sheer bad they put into the rest. Her story took everything bad about the "crazy lady in the attic" and forced us to treat her the same. I really wish they wouldn't let that stand. But, I expect they're going to, because leaving our "heroes" having tortured a torture victim, and were so stupid as to be responsible for millions of deaths because we couldn't be bothered to do anything but what the real enemy told us we had to, and as a direct result the Fleet went berserk, is more important than one more resurrection or retcon. And with the elements right there to do it, they could give us something better, but "oh the story would be hurt!" and there's no "responsible" way to bring her back. If the story wasn't abuse excusing garbage, that might actually matter to me. It was, so it doesn't.

I'll believe that when the game shuts down and he hasn't returned. They say that now, but I still feel, based on past experience with such things, that they'll ultimately change their minds.

Yes yes and yes. Enough with mentally ill abuse victims that just can't be saved, that further we are inexplicably forced to abuse ourselves, to mock, torture, and humiliate without a hint of apology or remorse (if we so chose, but we weren't given that option) to the point where she had every reason to believe that's how she would be treated if she didn't force the issue. This garbage should not stand. Let Vaylin live. I know it won't happen, because she lacks the right characteristics the dudes they have brought back have, but it would be nice.

All of that sounds good. I'd especially like a spirit Marr, but I'd prefer Vaylin to get to live. But I'll take a spirit for both.

Well, yes, but I was thinking about it actually making sense Anyway, several characters in a player made mod being done for Battlefront II, including Vaylin. Might be worth watching out for. Vaylin mod seen on Twitter.

Even try to help her, really. Yes, there were a couple that kind of sounded like that was the intent, but they just didn't make up for our treatment of her in chapters 6-8. But I digress. I don't know that I cry either, really, not during game play, anyway. But several of the Nemesis characters in Nathema Conspiracy annoy me. I found Senya's death, with the Light Side dialog, to be fairy affecting, though I dislike that path otherwise. Kira fighting for control of her life and destiny. Felix coming back and telling us what was done to him (and, seriously, BWA, you should have let us murder Jarak). All I can think of at the moment.

Well, she's distinctive looking and everyone hates her, hiding her face seems smart.

Wicked Huntress. Here's the mask I was considering for something similar, Callous Conqueror: https://ibb.co/j89prM4

I have a couple of issues: One is simply that I don't know that anything from the sequel series will go over well in the game. The second is that these methods are too open-ended, I would like one (or probably a couple, really, but mostly this one) character brought back, but it should be by a method that is unique and not repeatable. I'd rather not have a revolving door of death to get her back, just a clearly one time thing. I wouldn't even want that if I didn't find her story so utterly contemptible. But, because I find it contemptible, I would accept any of these methods if that's what we get. Or a ghost, since Yoda can blast things I think she could. Yeah, I absolutely think that he'll be back if the game lasts long enough for it*. I expect to see their Revan at some point, also. Because nostalgia is a powerful force, especially at the point when they start bleeding customers, which is going to happen, eventually. I'd LIKE to see it at least give me something I want when it happens, I don't expect it to. Hope I'm wrong, that it either doesn't happen or, better, that it does but has a good payoff (he brings her with him), but I don't see any reason to be optimistic. *I'm not expecting them to close their doors any time soon, just saying that it will happen eventually.

I do like the idea of a bonus chapter for a healing thing. Arcann and Senya can be involved, as ghosts if necessary, one more time, then move on after they help save her if dead. I'd prefer them to live if we allowed them to, but BW has the whole "you can't save everyone" thing, so they might not go for that. But, since I feel the story was poorly thought out and/or rushed, I'd just as soon save them all. Two to five minutes of game time, hopefully that's not too hard for the devs. And, yeah, if Vitiate gets to come back at any time, I'm not going to be happy, unless he brings her back with him some how. It just reinforces a trend that I don't care for at this point. There was a time I wouldn't have minded, he's that kind of villain, but after KotET, for personal reasons along with "yeah you really killed him this time", I would not be thrilled.

Sorry for the thread mild necromancy. Not just because of that. I still very much feel the story was badly enough done that I want it overturned, with the whole "kneel" thing and mocking her and so on. If we had more clearly compassionate dialog with her, I'm sure I would have let it go by now, but this wasn't that. I would have liked more what we got in Chapter 9, just, before she died rather than after, even if they decided it wouldn't work. I'll always prefer this kind of character be saved rather than killed, but I understand that it can't always be that way, but this one went too far, I think. So I'd still like to see something more done with her that isn't quite so awful, preferably living and getting help/allying with a DS ruler that's already beaten her once. But, oh well.

I'd rather not. I'd rather see the devs realize that the trope of "tortured person is too far gone to even TRY to save" is a much worse trope than being able to come back will ever be. I'd rather the tired old trope of using mental illness, especially when it's followed up by torture specifically because you're mentally ill, means that you get put in a box and ultimately have to die. Those are MUCH worse, more damaging, and every bit as tired as "character comes back from the dead" will ever be. And then they had to go and make it an order of magnitude worse by making us talk to her like an abusive *** would. Making us mock her before using the command phrase. The command phrase itself, specifically forcing her to her knees to her abuser. Not allowing us to respond to Lana and Valkorion when they tell us she's just a monster, not a victim, herself. Even as an Agent, or a Knight, both of whom got the brunt of this, we still just go and do what that monster says. They made us go along with abuser rhetoric and even spout some of that crap ourselves. If they'd let us try as hard for her as we did for Arcann, that might be different if she didn't go along. Instead, they made us actually hurt her with the same techniques as her "father". Maybe there's another, satisfying way to reverse this toxic garbage that they put out. But, ultimately, the easiest way I see is to reverse her death and allow us to do better this time around. Or even just have her on the console, that might be dead easy and doesn't require more story for those who don't want it or her. I find it extremely hard to believe that they are capable of doing so without that, considering, for whatever reason, they gave us this sludge in the first place. If they can, more power to them. If not, just let us have her back to make up for this terribly done and damaging story. It's bad enough that we use mental illness to create these narratives, over and over again, but this was so nasty it really shouldn't stand.

Would it be possible to get this as a Cartel item? Or at least something that is inspired by it?

I'd make a number of changes to KotXX. The scene in the cave would have actual repercussions and there would be a less aggressive dialog option. I'd like to be able to off Jarak myself, even if it's a DS choice, rather than follow him and have him die in an accident. I wanted to say to Lana, "Yeah, pity I didn't get to do it." I'd like to be able to spare, kill, imprison, or recruit anywhere from 0-3 of Senya, Arcann, and Vaylin. I'd still like five minutes of story time to make that story less noxious. I'd like Arcann's redemption, if I choose to allow it, not to look and sound so much like a brainwashing ritual. I'd like to recruit the honorable Sith, can't remember his name, that was ordered to try to stop you. I'd like the dead companions to continue to have relevance for those that didn't kill them. I want to have Holiday as her own companion. I'd like to team up with Zhorrid and shoot Jadus in the face again for that whole recital thing. I'd like mental illness to not be presented as a joke or a plot point to get some widdle tragedy, or if it must be used the latter way, at least give me some better, more compassionate dialog options, even if ultimately I fail. They've done it at times, but some others they fail spectacularly. All that comes to mind just now.

I'd kind of like to be able to replay chapters and pick different results. Or, failing that, be able to change my flags, possibly for a small fee (preferably in credits). There are just some times that mistakes are made that I'd like to have a doover for without having to start again or rely on the automatic selections that are made when we skip things. I'd like to be able to genuinely switch sides, though I'm pretty sure that won't happen since it seems like it would break too many things. Just recreating them and having my former Sith throwing rocks at people doesn't have the same vibe. I'd like to be able to get story-based characters as companions if they aren't going to use them any longer. Because I don't see another way for it to work, I could see it being something we'd have to buy. Better, some things like the bonus chapter for HK, but either way. Yeah, I know, whale and all that, I just don't consider it anything more odd than getting new costumes or looks, There are just several characters I'd like to have tagging along, even if their stories are not going to be continued, especially for some where I don't think I'd trust them with the story. I'd specifically like Vaylin and maybe Malora, I thought they were wasted and worse as is, and the easiest help for this would be to just do a companion so we could pretend that it had better stories. Plus, the usual: More planets, better stories (note that I haven't even gotten through Nathema yet, so take that one with a grain of salt), finally getting all of our companions back (if they aren't already, thought we were still missing a couple). Having those companion stories continue. Stop killing companions if it means they won't get any more story, though, to be fair, the stories seem to kind of end whether or not they're dead. Like that.

Totally wrong. Yes, of course. A process with chanting zealots around her, the tattooing, the very fact of the Nathema void in the force, and I am not expected to see that as part of the process that destroyed her? The very command phrase, the fact that it caused her a physical reaction, the fact that it made her eyes go purple, and I'm suppose to think the Force wasn't involved? Energy beams from the machinery being what reversed the conditioning, and I'm supposed to believe the Force is not involved? That it was JUST the torture? Totally wrong. Yes, of course. I mean, I said specifically that a counter ritual might not be enough. But, you cut that out and ignored it. So, here we are. I've tried multiple times to explain why this thing is a harmful mess. I have never once argued that your precious boy shouldn't have been saved, I've only argued that the method of it could have been better. And all you do is pull out the "better dead than hurting" ableist nonsense, or "oh she's just too far gone". And now "totally wrong" for seeing space wizards that may as well have summoned a demon to possess her and somehow I'm totally wrong for thinking that they used a Force ritual as a part of the control? "Incapable of making choices until you use the holocron on her". I disagree. She made quite a few good (evil) decisions. Her mind wasn't destroyed in the manner you suggest. And were that true, maybe we could have done it on her instead of her ghost, so, again, "killing her is the only option" becomes non-sensical. Nothing to stop the story from going that way. But, whatever. "She's broken" means she has to die, "he's broken" but gets the Force ritual. OK. And, since I know how this goes: "But the Holocron doesn't work that way!" Yeah, probably not. But it could have. Just as the ritual could heal a broken mind. Just not hers, apparently. Nothing can save her or heal her until she's dead. Ultimately, you have ignored my concerns multiple times, as you did here by just cutting most of them out and shouting at me that I'm "totally wrong" and then giving me the whole "I'm sorry if that's harsh". No, you're not, or you wouldn't have said it. And I'm not wrong. I have a clearly different interpretation of events. You can interpret things to support your guy being able to be saved while telling me I must be wrong for thinking we should have been allowed to treat her differently if you want. Glad you got your choices. Just would have liked to see more respect for mine, from both fans and the creators of this mess.

Welcome! I thought for a long time that Arcann was brainwashed by the ritual, too. I once wrote that the message of the expansions is get brainwashed or you have to die. Vaylin broke free (though I don't really buy that she was ever truly free of anything but the stinking command phrase), and Arcann if brainwashed lives, if not, he dies. I don't any longer. I still feel the imagery was poorly thought out, but for my own ability to enjoy the game I have to assume that Arcann was released from a form of brainwashing by the ritual. Even magically healed from trauma irks me, so I created my own story to accept it. As I mentioned, I still don't LIKE it, but I can accept it. But I'll never be over completely the fact that they made my character, of their own free will (we are told), use the command phrase to hurt her. No regret, only mockery. No plan to take her alive. Their apparent need to keep driving this abuse victim to her knees, to kill her again and again. They apparently thought we would find that fun, and quite a few people did. If you spare Arcann and dare to criticize him when he meets up with you, you even say, "If you hadn't interfered she would be dead!" And he bloody well apologizes for it. For accidentally stopping you from killing his sister while she's helpless from what Valkorion did to her. This is the kind of story that needed to be handled with sensitivity and care. I will always maintain that if you can't do that, just give out happy endings. The result here was vile. I try not to speak too ill of the writers these days, because of the level of pressure, but this kind of thing needs to be learned from. And, sadly, I see no indication that it is. And, yeah, them bringing her back, even without a story, would go a long way to making up for this thing.

Yeah, you've said this before. And it makes zero sense to me. Vaylin's mind was altered by the Force. She was under mind control. She had a ritual done to make her the way she is. That should mean that a ritual should be able to free her. Maybe, by using the ritual on her, she would revert to a still traumatized woman, because she was also tortured, but the ritual helping her makes perfect sense. Arcann was traumatized by abuse and neglect. The Force was never shown to be a part of it. Yes, that can change his brain chemistry, but using the Force to cure that is dicey at best. Using it to cure him from being influenced by the Dark Side might be all right, if that's even the case, but curing his trauma this way is a seriously messed up message. Not only could, and I would argue should, the ritual have been used for Vaylin to free her from what was done to her by a monster, it would have been a much, much stronger story for Arcann to come to terms with his trauma and to be able to choose a different path. Instead, we get the ableist narrative that his problems will cause him to lash out if he is not "cured" by magic. He is never allowed to become a better man purely of his own volition, whether you view the ritual as brainwashing or a cure. And the imagery of that entire scene is much too close to that of Vaylin in the trailer for my tastes, though I try not to view it as the same. It's hard sometimes. And they were so very close, too. They had him make the decision to protect his mother. They didn't have him doing it by harming his sister, but just by trying to separate them. They could have built on that, Senya caring for him and helping and him simply getting better slowly through hard work. It would have been both so much better and would have been Star Wars at its best. And then the two of them try to reach out to Vaylin, perhaps succeeding, perhaps not, but at least trying one more time. Instead, no, a mentally ill person is cured by magic, and another mentally ill person has to die for being broken. He can't save himself, and she can't be saved at all, and even the attempt is too much to ask. You'll forgive us if that doesn't sit well. Now, maybe you want to say that the codex entry supports you, and maybe it does. But, even if that's true, the same writers wrote it. They put in an excuse for the above ableist nonsense. That doesn't really earn them any points.

Plus there's Koth. He bailed because of Arcann's rule, even while being fooled by Valkorion's "benevolence". The refugees bailed because of Arcann's rule. There is no way that I can accept that Zakuul wasn't already falling apart. Ultimately, Arcann is a redeemed tyrant, if allowed to be, but he was a tyrant, and was really bad at it, and the idea that it was Vaylin's psychosis rather than his own that lead to the crumbling empire is just odd. She certainly didn't help in her six months, but he had a full five years to tear it down, and let's be serious, considering who set it up in the first place, they were probably both doing the galaxy a favor by doing so. It's just a shame that they caused so much harm otherwise.

I'm not all that against resurrections. I think some times there are solid reasons for it, but I do think they need to be used sparingly and in a way that doesn't become the revolving door of death, but they can be all right. In SWTOR, there are characters I'd like to see live again, or have it revealed they never really died. There are those I am utterly against living again. Valkorion is one of the latter, without giving me something in return. So long as he was Vitiate, inhuman ancient monster that eats worlds, I was all right with him continuing to come back periodically. Once they made him such a recognizable, near-human villain with the things he did to his family, I'd much prefer him to stay in the ground. They brought back Revan, and made him lesser in my opinion. They brought back Malgus, and, though it was a "we never saw the body", I still have some issues with him that made me not want him around, and they also made him less than he was. For that matter, making Vitiate into Valkorion made him less already, so I think him coming back would be unfortunate. There are a couple of ways that I would accept his return, but I don't expect them, and I recognize that for people that are against resurrections they'd make it worse. I still expect him to return at some point, though I don't think it will be soon, so long as the game continues long enough.

I'm expecting Jadus to come back. I'd have preferred it if it had been him instead of Malgus, if only because his story didn't end yet. I'd like to be allowed to end it. As for the Nathema thing, that seems utterly reasonable to me. His death returning her spirit to her body is in no way less reasonable than life returning to Nathema. If it really was Valkorion that kills her and not the injury, which we've seen others survive, it works fine. Perhaps it takes her a while to wake, or she's on ice/carbonite, or she escaped in the confusion. That all seems plausible, given what we've seen. I like her saving herself. Maybe if she's on ice we have the choice of letting her out or keeping her trapped or finishing her off or something, but I like her doing most of the work. Might also return Arcann to life, but then, since Vaylin bombed the region after we kill him, maybe not. Maybe if she recovered the body? Ultimately, though, we already have the option to let him live and even to give him his DS look, so I don't know that it's necessary.

Well, considering how Jadus treated his own daughter, I'm not sure that's a good place for her to end up. But, I can probably cope as long as when we find them Vaylin joins me and Zhorrid in killing him. Wins all around.