SWTOR sucks, doesn't it?

[GalacticKegger]

Foks, you don't need community members to agree with you for your opinions to be valid. They are NOT the folks you need to convince.

+10 for truth.

[PorsaLindahl]

I don't think SWTOR sucks. But I damn sure believe that many, many, many, and many more decisions made by those who are responsible for the game have made decisions that totally suck. Edited November 19, 2017 by PorsaLindahl

[olagatonjedi]

It's relevance is called historical perspective, which new players (assuming they actually play) try to fake but fail miserably at because they weren't actually there. If this was truly irrelevant then BW would not have caved in and brought back at least some semblance of tier tokens (components) and comms (unassembled components) to the level cap game.

 

Now ... if you are genuienly that adamant about discrediting someone, then for best results might I suggest Bioware's decision makers?

So you are attaching a number to someones historical perspective? I cant think of a more flawed premise.

[Costello]

Sadly I doubt that anyone from the development team is reading this thread or wants constructive feedback.

 

That said a lot of posts are not constructive, I love or I hate are utterly meaningless in the terms of development when they are not backed up by anything. You could love the colour blue and I could hate the colour blue. It doesn't do anything to improve blue. So if there is any post where you could replace whatever the person loves or hates with blue and it would make as much sense they are aren't providing anything specifically about the experience which can be used.

 

Take for example I love the conversation system. Many others have said how they hate it. Neither explains the issue. But if I say I love the conversation system because I feel that it really puts the player in the center of the story, it makes them an active participant, but more than this is allows them to craft their characters personality. Do they always push to do the right thing, or do they threaten children to get their last piece of candy. Is their bounty hunter all about the hunt or are they a complete mercenary and do whatever pays the most even if its letting a double crossing mark go free.

 

Games like the Secret World (SWL) has amazing dialogue, but your character is the mute just watching it unfold. More than once its even comment upon. So after being a spectator to this rich dialogue you go off to do all the heavy lifting. There are many other games both MMO and single player which don't envelop the player in the story and the events where they can say 'whats in it for me' as opposed to just accept or reject.

 

And for me it shines in group situations, your with a friend or partner and doing quests together, your both in the conversation. You both have a chance to speak and make the decision. Its not ideal but its massively better than other games where you would have your individual dialogue experiences and find at the end that someone in the group skipped the dialogue and is off killing stuff while you were listening to what was said. They just didn't care cause ultimately they weren't part of it, the only option would be to accept and then go kill whatever. But here I want to be nice to a moff of the black talon I can if someone else wants to call him ugly they can. It all goes to crafting that character I'm going to hopefully spend a long time with.

 

Other people will say the dialogue wheel is awful cause its so deceptive from what you pick to what is actually said or its a waste of time and slows the action down and people should all space bar through. That may be valid and they may think text boxes is the way to go. But it only counts if when they say I hate dialogue they can explain why they hate it or its just I hate blue!

[Jdast]

.Balderdash. Never said it ... never even alluded to it. I have never deviated from my position that the MMORPG systems which were removed from the game are not only entirely applicable, but are (by my own admission as observed by Olag - see above) what I have been requesting be returned to the game since KotFE began the process of removing them.

 

I was referring to your criticisms on an empirical level -- as in they are no longer applicable in November 2017 because the system has undergone such a major course correction since 5.0 and there is, in fact, tactical filtering and crates are no longer the only, even primary source of loot acquisition. Sorry if I was unclear. It's even good enough for government work now (a phrase I myself use a lot). Dasty

[ZeroTypeR]

While in some cases I do miss the uniqueness of Companions and their roles, the greater flexibility has been very wonderful.

 

Someone who gets attached to the stories of the characters, I can have characters with me because of their stories and my characters relation with them. And if I have a favorite character, I don't have to keep that character aside to play another companion I don't want to.

 

There will always be some exceptions to that. Treat was an amazing tank / healer. HK 51 assassinate ability was awesome.

 

However, even in their vanilla stantec, I am finding some companion enjoyment. Currently leveling a bounty hunter and have Mako by my side almost all the time.. She has a move that when she's about to finish off an NPC she whips out a gun and there's this loud shotgun like blast. Given that all the other stuff is the usual lasers and pew pew pew, that blast caught me off guard at first and had me laughing hysterically, as little Mako is packing some serious heat to put a final nail in some poor NPCs coffin.

 

So the game still has personality in places if you're willing to look for it. Or see it when it's in front of you.

 

I agree. I found the companion role change update to be a very positive one, however I also think that the bonus damage needs to be toned down. The thing that would've made it better, IMO, would've been to add a unique role for the companions who had unique abilities/fighting styles.

Edited November 20, 2017 by ZeroTypeR

[GalacticKegger]

I was referring to your criticisms on an empirical level -- as in they are no longer applicable in November 2017 because the system has undergone such a major course correction since 5.0 and there is, in fact, tactical filtering and crates are no longer the only, even primary source of loot acquisition. Sorry if I was unclear. It's even good enough for government work now (a phrase I myself use a lot). Dasty

Ya ... they've met us 10% of the way to what we had pre-KotFE which is probably good enough for some (likely those who will close up the bar here so to speak when all is said and done). Just not good enough for me or those who feel similarly. Whether that amount equates to the dozens of members from our dormant Harbinger guilds who would come back for those changes or 100,000 is immaterial. Whether or not there are enough to make as much of a difference as last December is immaterial. All one can do is stand up and be counted.

 

Or as it was so eloquently put in an earlier post:

Foks, you don't need community members to agree with you for your opinions to be valid. They are NOT the folks you need to convince.

Truth. Edited November 20, 2017 by GalacticKegger

[Storm-Cutter]

Only here for GSF and PvP and occasional guild activities - mainly taking new guild-members through old content while having a trip down memory lane, and a laugh at the same time in voice-chat

 

It's not a huge amount of money for the hours I get out of it. -Only wish it was spent on more content than gimmicks , expensive movie trailers, piss-poor story ( for the most part since ~Makeb) and RNG.

 

But those things are what most people obviously like. - To watch lavish movie clips and re-do old stuff for shiny things, and be hoodwinked into thinking the writing isn't done by selecting five random words from a list of eleven.

 

• lose
  
• death,
  
• love,
  
• life,
  
• traitor,
  
• family,
  
• force,
  
• light
  
• dark.
  
• old
  
• new
  

 

such as the one above.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Storm-Cutter

[Eshvara]

Foks, you don't need community members to agree with you for your opinions to be valid. They are NOT the folks you need to convince.

 

Heh, imo nobody should come here thinking they are going to change people's way of thinking. it rarely ever happens.

On the forums people with opposite opinions always think the one standing on the other side is wrong!

Then people continue to agree to disagree and move on.(if things stay civil)

[GalacticKegger]

So you are attaching a number to someones historical perspective? I cant think of a more flawed premise.

Actually there's no need to attach a number because everybody is automatically given one when they first sign up. It can be seen at the bottom of the screen when mousing over a name below a forum avatar. The lower the number the longer the member's history with the game is. Edited November 20, 2017 by GalacticKegger

[Calarand]

I actually play it because I like it. Is it perfect? Absolutely not. Do I enjoy it? Yush! It's also Star Wars and I like to be a part of something star warsy!

and

I'm a single player. I like this game, not like an MMO, but as a continuation of KOTOR.

That pretty much sums it up for me.

 

Back in the days when money wasn't much of a problem for my household, I used to be an avid WoW player. Yes, I'd buy xpack after xpack just to do the leveling, solo content because I enjoyed the new areas and quests so much. I have never had any gear, mounts or whatnot from grouping and I was fine with that because there were regular huge updates pretty much yearly bringing more lands to explore and more quests to do. What can I say, I just like to solo my MMOs.

 

Ever since I stopped doing so well financially, paying a sub and utilizing only 1/4th of the content in WoW stopped making sense, but luckily SWtOR had appeared and it was simply PERFECT. Especially after the changes that made FPs solo-friendly. So I'm here to stay, paying an occasional sub whenever I can, for as long as the game lets me enjoy content solo without forcing me to group... yeah, getting Darth Hexid seems to be a bad sign there, but I digress.

[BobbyWilkerson]

It does in many places. But it is worth seeing the story through if not worth subbing after that.

[olagatonjedi]

Actually there's no need to attach a number because everybody is automatically given one when they first sign up. It can be seen at the bottom of the screen when mousing over a name below a forum avatar. The lower the number the longer the member's history with the game is.

Incorrect. The lower the number, the longer that specific account was made. It gives no indication if someone created the account name long ago but just started playing, or is someone has multiple accounts, one of which could be user #1.

[GalacticKegger]

Incorrect. The lower the number, the longer that specific account was made. It gives no indication if someone created the account name long ago but just started playing, or is someone has multiple accounts, one of which could be user #1.

So someone could be less experienced than their number implies, just not more experienced than their number implies; though they could have another account that started earlier. Got it ... makes perfect sense. Thanks mate! Edited November 20, 2017 by GalacticKegger

[olagatonjedi]

So someone could be less experienced than their number implies, just not more experienced than their number implies; though they could have another account that started earlier. Got it ... makes perfect sense. Thanks mate!

Im saying the number isnt guaranteed to have any relevance to their experience.

[jimmorrisson]

SWTOR only began to "suck" with it's implementation of 5.0's loot crate gearing system known as "command crates". The uproar caused by the 5.0's change should have been a warning to EA over what fans will tolerate. Blame placed by many on former producer Ben Irving or current producer Keith Kanneg can now be placed on EA the company itself.

 

It can be argued that given the major headlines generated by Star Wars Battlefront II's disastrous rollout, SWTOR was used as a test bed for Battlefront II's loot box scheme. One can also assume Battlefront II's development came at the expense of SWTOR.

 

However loot boxes can work.

 

Last July/Labor Day/Update 5.5 double cxp events (which should be the default) shown that players actually can enjoy earning and opening crates so long a they get them in a timely manner while Developers can continue to enjoy torturing players by making sure chase gear is ultra rare.

Edited November 20, 2017 by jimmorrisson

[Galahard]

Please define 'MMO'.

 

If your definition of MMO equals WoW, then I understand why you think it sucks (as an 'MMO').

 

If you break away from your own expectations and biases, you will see that SWTOR is a quality single player game with multiplayer elements, that is not being made anymore these days.

I'm talking about original content here and the first few expansions, however, the downward spiral is clearly seen.

 

Why would someone pay a monthly fee for a single player game, well good question.

If that is the business model, that is what you do, if you want to play the game.

Don't say I like it, but come on, we are talking about $15, that's a trip to the McDonald's.

 

I play it for the quality art and storytelling, just like any old Bioware title.

Star Wars is the second reason, it cannot be discounted.

 

SWTOR tried to live up to his promise, but the market that they targeted didn't appreciate this type of quality and style of gameplay.

It was and is ahead of its time.

[Deewe]

Please define 'MMO'.

Couple of MMO I used to play UO - EQ1 & 2 - SWG - WoW - DDO - LotRo - AoC - AC - City of Heroes - Rift - WildStar - The Secret World - GW2

 

I might be forgetting some but I guess you get the idea.

[olagatonjedi]

Couple of MMO I used to play UO - EQ1 & 2 - SWG - WoW - DDO - LotRo - AoC - AC - City of Heroes - Rift - WildStar - The Secret World - GW2

 

I might be forgetting some but I guess you get the idea.

Ive played many of those, for a significant amount of time, and they all have issues, some worse than swtor, amd some not as bad as swtor. There is no perfect game for everyone.

[Galahard]

Couple of MMO I used to play UO - EQ1 & 2 - SWG - WoW - DDO - LotRo - AoC - AC - City of Heroes - Rift - WildStar - The Secret World - GW2

 

I might be forgetting some but I guess you get the idea.

 

You missed the point (and didn't define, just gave examples).

 

The point was, that the term "MMO" can only be loosely applied to SWTOR, that is it's more a single player experience with multiplayer elements.

 

Heck, it's only an MMO in the business model. More accurately, it shares the business model with MMOs.

 

So the main point is that SWTOR should be measured based on the merits of its own type of style of gameplay, not on some imaginary, "MMO" type of criteria.

 

Just an example: FOR TWO YEARS, THERE WERE NO NEW OPS!!!1!!!!!1111ONE

 

OK, where is it written in the law of physics, that an online game must be continuously adding new ops?

Nowhere? So it's just an expectation, based on other games?

So change the expectations, not the game, if you're expecting different, play other games.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Galahard

[PorsaLindahl]

OK, where is it written in the law of physics, that an online game must be continuously adding new ops?

Nowhere? So it's just an expectation, based on other games?

So change the expectations, not the game, if you're expecting different, play other games.

 

Sound advice, but people here just love their whining and moaning too much to move along to other things.

[DanNV]

SWTOR tried to live up to his promise, but the market that they targeted didn't appreciate this type of quality and style of gameplay.

 

The gameplay didn't live up to the marketing at launch, got better through 3.x and then fell flat on it's face and stopped living up to the marketing. The people looking for mmo content aren't incorrect in asking for it since it was promised.

 

OK, where is it written in the law of physics, that an online game must be continuously adding new ops?

Nowhere? So it's just an expectation, based on other games?

 

No, it's an expectation based on promsies made by the SWTOR dev team.

 

So change the expectations, not the game, if you're expecting different, play other games.

 

People are playing other games hence two NA servers, consolidated into one data center and a population that probably ins't really worth paying devs to develop for. So, you're getting what you suggested, but that means what you want is likely to go away, too. This game is gone as soon as EA doesn't care about claiming to have a SW MMO.

[Galahard]

The gameplay didn't live up to the marketing at launch, got better through 3.x and then fell flat on it's face and stopped living up to the marketing. The people looking for mmo content aren't incorrect in asking for it since it was promised.

SWTOR is/was a full fledged MMO at 3.x with 10 ops in 3 years.

Nothing wrong there, unless the expectation was to be on par with WoW that was 7 years ahead in development time and more than 10 times the subs and budget.

 

No, it's an expectation based on promsies made by the SWTOR dev team.

Who were mostly fired by EA, first the founders of the studio in the first year, later the complete ops team.

 

People are playing other games hence two NA servers, consolidated into one data center and a population that probably ins't really worth paying devs to develop for. So, you're getting what you suggested, but that means what you want is likely to go away, too. This game is gone as soon as EA doesn't care about claiming to have a SW MMO.

Yeah, I agree that EA is stupid not to invest into a SW franchise game, hey, what's new?

Edited November 21, 2017 by Galahard

[LordArtemis]

Ok, a few things.

 

This is JUST MY OPINION. I am not speaking for anyone but myself here. Just to be clear.

 

1) Launch

The game failed to meet expectations across the board. This was directly due to development mistakes and missteps, as well as developer arrogance and a lack of understanding their target audience. As a result, players left the game in droves shortly after launch. This, IMO, was the largest loss of players to date and left a lasting impression that has been tough to change.

 

2) F2P/Cartel Market

This change saved the game from likely cancellation. I believe the total amount of players had fallen to such low levels cancellation was likely seriously considered by someone in the leadership pipeline. Almost everyone associated with the original design was essentially canned, and a new crew was brought into the game. This was one of the healthiest periods for the game.

 

3) Balance crusade, ban crusade, CSM debacle, broken assurances, level sync.

All of these things came as a result of a change in management IMO. A string of bad decisions and poorly designed/handled game additions combined together to cause a net loss of players over time that had a real impact on the game. I believe a decision was made to reverse the trend with something drastic, instead of focusing on the problem.

 

4) KotFE/ET, removal of armor and currency, GC.

This set of expansions pulled in new players and got some old players to return, but some bad decisions that followed (or poorly handled changes) combined with poor insight with respect to the lack of the expansions" retention ability ended up causing another downward trend. This resulted in yet ANOTHER need to combine servers.

 

And that takes us into today.

 

The game has arguably made quite a few positive changes....some of the silly restrictions of the past, like character appearance or speeder speed restrictions have been lifted. Travel is no long a chore. Companions are now powerful enough to carry the day for most players. The game has plenty of events on a regular basis, and a real potential for earnings based on game play alone. And there has NEVER been so many appearance options.

 

But the game still has a long way to go.

 

And that is a problem at the moment, because it is my belief that the current likely downward trend could end up being quite destructive to the playerbase, especially considering how many high quality products are now on the market coupled with some highly anticipated changes coming to some benchmark games in the near future.

 

What happens in the next few months will likely prove vital to the games continued health and longevity in this market.

Edited November 22, 2017 by LordArtemis

[DanNV]

1) Launch

The game failed to meet expectations across the board. This was directly due to development mistakes and missteps, as well as developer arrogance and a lack of understanding their target audience. As a result, players left the game in droves shortly after launch. This, IMO, was the largest loss of players to date and left a lasting impression that has been tough to change.

 

That is correct. The game basically died at launch. There is an interview with James O from that time that basically says so.

 

2) F2P/Cartel Market

This change saved the game from likely cancellation. I believe the total amount of players had fallen to such low levels cancellation was likely seriously considered by someone in the leadership pipeline. Almost everyone associated with the original design was essentially canned, and a new crew was brought into the game. This was one of the healthiest periods for the game.

 

Per the interview mentioned above, EA gave BW a timeline to go F2P or shutdown. Hence the goofy F2P setup, they didn't have time to hire someone who knew how to do it.

 

3) Balance crusade, ban crusade, CSM debacle, broken assurances, level sync.

All of these things came as a result of a change in management IMO. A string of bad decisions and poorly designed/handled game additions combined together to cause a net loss of players over time that had a real impact on the game. I believe a decision was made to reverse the trend with something drastic, instead of focusing on the problem.

 

Level sync and a few other things in that time frame were actually the fulfillment of promises made at the guild conference after launch.

 

4) KotFE/ET, removal of armor and currency, GC.

This set of expansions pulled in new players and got some old players to return, but some bad decisions that followed (or poorly handled changes) combined with poor insight with respect to the lack of the expansions" retention ability ended up causing another downward trend. This resulted in yet ANOTHER need to combine servers.

 

No endgame content started the final downward spiral with 4.0. Same mistake they made at launch that had people leaving when they hit max level and realized there was nothing to do. GC finished the job along with a further expansion with no endgame in 5.0. The trickling out of an op over most of a year (maybe more by the time they're done) hasn't really helped. I expect everything we've seen trickle out this year was supposed to be the expansion for this December. Obviously, that means there is no expansion this December and I would not expect one before fall at the earliest, if there is another expansion.

 

 

And that takes us into today.

 

The game has arguably made quite a few positive changes....some of the silly restrictions of the past, like character appearance or speeder speed restrictions have been lifted. Travel is no long a chore. Companions are now powerful enough to carry the day for most players. The game has plenty of events on a regular basis, and a real potential for earnings based on game play alone. And there has NEVER been so many appearance options.

 

The problem is the game has no new endgame, just recycles old content. That means retention is going to be low at best. Low retention means no one to teach new players how the game works or how to do what endgame there is which leads to lower retention, this is a self-feeding death spiral. They have made insufficient changes to get players to stay and added insufficient new content to get players to stay or come back. Add that GC still exists as a gearing mechanism, NiM raids don't drop NiM gear (only last bosses drop BiS and several pieces aren't available with anything but UCs) and you have little or no way to stop the slide the game is on. EA didn't consolidate this game into two NA servers in one data center because they expect it to grow or because they are planning to throw money at it.

 

But the game still has a long way to go.

 

At this point it only has one place to go, and that is lights out and lock the doors. It's just a matter of time unless something major changes at EA.

 

And that is a problem at the moment, because it is my belief that the current likely downward trend could end up being quite destructive to the playerbase, especially considering how many high quality products are now on the market coupled with some highly anticipated changes coming to some benchmark games in the near future.

 

What happens in the next few months will likely prove vital to the games continued health and longevity in this market.

 

This game is in poor health at best, and isn't likely to improve. It will sputter along until EA decides to pull the plug, but that's it. There is no sign EA is going to invest the money this game needs to survive, much less grow. Enjoy it while it lasts. Play the parts you enjoy while you can. Don't expect anything fantastic out of Austin, it's not going to happen.