An honest conversation: Future Operation development is not feasible.

[Quraswren]

A story player doesn't have to take their first or only character(s) to that point. S/he could create any number of characters -- testing out different classes, advance classes, races, character designs, whatever -- take eight (or one) through the story, then cancel because there wasn't enough additional story coming.

 

So what you're saying is they would rather do anthing other than play through the story? Maybe anything else other than play through any of the stories past their mains. Thats exactly what it sounds like you're saying here.

 

Players will do anything but play the story.

 

They will make new toons and delete them. They will test out classes but will only do it somewhere else other than story. The will choose that adv class at character creation and never get to access their ship because they are doing anything else other than story - Seeing races, design whatever. Even going so far as to create new characters for each story but never actually doing the story they created the toon on or seeing very short story long enough to play through to get a ship.

 

Like people said. Story just isn't it when you want to keep gamers around. bioware cannot continue to rely on it. It seems players are doing all kinds of things except seeing the story.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Quraswren

[kodrac]

OK...I thought this all started because you said that players finished the story and found that there was no more story coming, so they quit? I may be mistaken, so I apologize if I am...you're right...all types of players quit, but I don't believe lack of story was the primary one...it's certainly A reason for some...but I don't believe it's the primary reason people have quit.

 

Right. That's why I expanded on that to include subscriptions. My guild certainly wanted to continue playing, but didn't want to pay to wait out the fix for Ilum that we were told Gabe was hard at work on but never came.

Edited October 18, 2017 by kodrac

[TUXs]

But really, that statistic... I don't know how else to explain to you that it's utter ******** anymore, so I just hope you're not exposed to any statistic interpretation in your career.

Likewise. I hope you don't need to either.

[DarthDymond]

So what you're saying is they would rather do anthing else than play through the story? Thats exactly what it sounds like you're pushing here.

 

Players will do anything but play the story. They will make new toons and delete them. They will test out classes but will only do it somewhere else other than story. The will choose that adv class at character creation and never get to access their ship because they are doing anything else other than story - Seeing races, design whatever. Even going so far as to create new characters for each story but never actually doing the very short story play through to get a ship.

What? This entire tangent was about what the infographic Tuxs posted does or does not prove -- specifically the part about 57 million characters created vs 6.8 million starships.

 

Tuxs seemed to me to be saying that anyone who created a character but didn't get the ship for that character, must not have been a "story player." My point is that story players can easily have made and discarded multiple characters before settling on -- and playing through the story for -- only the ones that work for them. Hence all the "it's not a 1:1 ratio" back-and-forth.

Edited October 18, 2017 by DarthDymond

[IoNonSoEVero]

The fact is not all story is repeatable on the same character. The original story isn't repeatable, Rothc isn't repeatable, SoR isn't repeatable. Only Kotfe, and Kotet were repeatable on the same character for everything else you had to do the normal activity of Making a new character. GASP!!!

 

Just because you think that the story content was to short since 5.0 (iokath, and umbara) doesn't mean it was neglected anymore then anything else. Operations got Neglected for 2+ years, GSF got Neglected for 3+ years. having some story every few months IS NOT BEING NEGLECTED!!

 

I pretty clearly said several times that everyone is getting scraps right now, if you actually tried reading my post. But if you think story is geting more than group stuff right now or that 10 mins of story in.a year is a lot, or on par with what sseused to have, you are deluding yourself.

[Cruxa]

So what you're saying is they would rather do anthing other than play through the story? Thats exactly what it sounds like you're saying here.

 

You may not believe it, but for some story players the gameplay of the class is also an integral part of their character. I played both a marauder and a juggernaut to about level 20, but avoided the class story since I didn't want to spoil it for my "real" toon, to see which class would fit the personality of my warrior better. I deleted both toons after settling for marauder.

I deleted my smuggler at level 2 because I didn't like his hair color ingame anymore and spent the next hours recreating and deleting him with different appearance options.

 

There are a multitude of reasons for story players to play other characters besides their story toons, which are nevertheless still connected to story.

[Sargrith]

I won't argue over an overall content drought, I was just argueing that Story was being neglected more then other content, which it isn't. We're all having Less content then we'd like I'm sure. I know I'd love to have more Operations (2 full Ops per year), PvP'ers should get 2-4 new maps per year, as should GSF, even Story players should get more then they currently do, unfortunately I don't think that is possible anymore so we'll just have to take what we can get.

 

We want more mostly because once, long ago we got story, ops, PvP, etc that we really enjoyed. Some of it is still really good even if old, and that is why we are so hungry now. We know what they could once do.

[TUXs]

What? This entire tangent was about what the infographic Tuxs posted does or does not prove - specifically the part about 15 million characters created vs 6.8 million starships.

 

Tuxs was saying that anyone who created a character but didn't get the ship for that character, must not have been a "story player."

57 million, not 15.

 

And no, I did not say that. I stated that in order to play the story, you also get a ship, it's not optional - it's a 1:1 ratio story to ship. But we also know that only 6.8 million ships exist out of 57 million characters.

 

Make any excuse you want to explain the gap, we can't prove why there's a gap that significant, but there is...and it strikes me as very odd. I would have expected 57 million to 48 million tbh, since a ship is part of your second planet...not 57 to 6.8 though...I find the gap amazingly large.

[DarthDymond]

57 million, not 15.

Bah, you beat me to my edit -- I knew that didn't sound right.

Edited October 18, 2017 by DarthDymond

[Costello]

Dude, do u even ops?

 

Maybe as new gear is introduced it looks different, but very soon everyone is geared and people do ops because, you know, they don't care about gear, they grind for it because they NEED it to do more difficult ops, but thats it....

 

And they do ops because, as you cynically and mockingly named, have "warm fuzzy feeling being in a group". Also, they do it for a sense of accomplishment after even minor victory.

 

Solo players, on the other hand, do not need BIS gear, only want it. Or can you name other reason for solo players to allow them to get BIS gear?

 

Yes I did do Ops when they were new. Since 5.0 my guild moved to WoW for new raids there, I suspect many hard core raiders did likewise, not as if I could consider I played this game solely or even primarily for raids when only 2 new op bosses have been launched in 2 years.

 

I feel like I have touched a nerve though, you are saying that Op players don't do because they want the gear but they are doing it because they need the gear so they can do the more difficult ops which are locked behind a minimum gear level.

 

However they do it for the achievement and the warm fuzzy feeling not the gear (Such as you raid leader), yet both of these can be achieved through non ops based play. Or SM ops play which offers a bolster and therefore does not require BIS gear, and must offer the same feeling of group participation and achievement, even more so if its not just over gearing the mobs and walking through it. So you need gear but in your example you are quoting a raid leader who doesn't need any gear but is still playing the ops, so he doesn't need it but doing it for the warm fuzzy feeling or is he doing it for the gear even though he doesn't need it someone else does and if it wasn't for the gear wouldn't be doing the ops.

 

But the point I was making is that if people enjoy playing ops for the sake of playing them, the warm fuzzy and even the achievement of beating the same ops boss for the 30th time then the reward or lack of one shouldn't matter. I shouldn't be seeing someone telling me that Solo players have less right to BIS than group play raiders. Why should it matter if someone is doing what they want to do and enjoying it what item reward someone else is getting.

 

In fact if Operations were fun regardless of the gear reward they could offer no reward and people would still do it on NiM just for the sense of completion and group activity. Yet it seems group players feel they need better gear than solo players, yet it could be argued that Master Mode Story chapters have just the same gear requirement.

 

So if we discount gear and accept that warm fuzzy feelings and sense of achievement can be obtain through other means what do raids bring that could not be achieved through other content. It has taken an ops team a year to turn out 2 possibly three operation bosses. How many people will participate in this content, how many will then participate on Master or NiM mode (or vet and master whatever terms they use). Is this a good use of their time? If raiding is your primary focus was 2 or 3 raid bosses in two years worth the wait and what were you doing between the bosses being launched, SOR for 3 years running? If they are going to have a team working on new operation boss for a year and flat out they can only release 3 bosses it would be nice to know if it was worth it and what the people that want this content over other content get out of it that you can't get grouping up to kill a light vs dark boss.

[kodrac]

I would have expected 57 million to 48 million tbh, since a ship is part of your second planet...not 57 to 6.8 though...I find the gap amazingly large.

 

Well, that is 57 million created. That doesn't mean used or still around. They could be level 1s reserving names or bank mules. I've probably created 100 and deleted 85 for one reason or another. So that just throws it more out of whack.

[TUXs]

Solo players, on the other hand, do not need BIS gear, only want it. Or can you name other reason for solo players to allow them to get BIS gear?

Allow them? Yes...there are a million reasons to "allow" them to get it. Their $ is just as valuable as yours. If I were a solo player, you bet your *** I'd want BiS still...who wouldn't want to be the best they can be at something? Why would you want to always be an underachiever?

 

Top tier gear dropping from crates for solo players, is the best damn thing to happen to this game - arguably the best part of CXP/GC imo. MAYBE...just maybe...by having that top tier gear, they'll be encouraged to try something they were cautious about before.

[Icykill_]

57 million, not 15.

 

And no, I did not say that. I stated that in order to play the story, you also get a ship, it's not optional - it's a 1:1 ratio story to ship. But we also know that only 6.8 million ships exist out of 57 million characters.

 

Make any excuse you want to explain the gap, we can't prove why there's a gap that significant, but there is...and it strikes me as very odd. I would have expected 57 million to 48 million tbh, since a ship is part of your second planet...not 57 to 6.8 though...I find the gap amazingly large.

 

2/3rd’s of my 80+ characters don’t have ships because I lvld them in pvp and did no story after lvl 10

[DWho]

At least the last two OPS in SoR wouldn't be considered old at that time but apparently they story wasn't a retention enough device to get them to stay long enough to see it or invest their time to the game much at all.

 

You are right though. A fuller SoR style expansion with less bugs will go farther for players than story alone will ever hope to accomplish. Just like relying solely on end game wont be this great redeemer either but I get the feeling it will do better for the game than story has done these past 2 years.

 

Sadly now that I think about it though. The damage story alone has done combined with just hinting at the phrase galactic command (no matter how they adjust it) and the damage may be to much to recover from no matter what bioware does. bioware has put a hurt on this IP in a major way and in a lot of ways. Relying on story too much was one of them. It just doesn't keep gamers in game.

 

Story hasn't done any damage. It has done exactly what it was intended to do, bring new players into the game and immerse them in the game world. I think a lot of people came back to the game wanting the new story to be Star Wars (4.0 and beyond). While it contained Star Wars characters it did not feel like the heroic story of the movies like the original class stories did (saving the galaxy and all). That was why people left without even trying the group content. Story needs to be engaging to succeed.

 

Player retention requires one thing, something for players to do over and over that they enjoy. For some people that is doing story on multiple characters (it is really the shift away from multiple storylines that has made story a less effective retention device). For others it is repeating group content. For some its just the social aspect of the game (social by the way does not mean running group content over and over that is only part of it - guilds are a big retention mechanic as well). Story is the core of this game. Story is what Star Wars is and always will be. The group content all needs to be story related or it won't work in the game. The best OPs in the game were those on Oricon and they were tied intimately to the storyline.

 

As for all the comparison to launch as to why people left it is silly to do so. The game is a completely different game now than it was at launch and it is not currently plagued with nearly as many technical problems as this game suffered out of the gate. The whole idea that since only 10% of the population got their ships means that the story was the problem is ridiculous to anyone who was around at launch and saw the problems the game had.

[Cruxa]

Make any excuse you want to explain the gap, we can't prove why there's a gap that significant, but there is...and it strikes me as very odd.

 

So finally you DID get it. The whole point was that you preferred one specific explanation for this gap, while several others tried to point out that there are multiple other possible explanations. Therefore you can't use it as an argument for either side here.

 

Personally, with all I said before and experienced in other games, I expected this gap to be even larger, so it doesn't really strike me as odd at all. On the contrary, if anything, it's a bit small, but still in the expected range.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Cruxa

[Transcendent]

Sadly now that I think about it though. The damage story alone has done combined with just hinting at the phrase galactic command (no matter how they adjust it) and the damage may be to much to recover from no matter what bioware does. bioware has put a hurt on this IP in a major way and in a lot of ways. Relying on story too much was one of them. It just doesn't keep gamers in game.

 

Agreed, especially that last part which you would have thought history would have taught BioWare. Clearly someone missed the launch when coming up with that idea.

 

Well, that is 57 million created. That doesn't mean used or still around. They could be level 1s reserving names or bank mules. I've probably created 100 and deleted 85 for one reason or another. So that just throws it more out of whack.

 

Okay, my head hurts now, this particular discussion is going around in circles.

 

Top tier gear dropping from crates for solo players, is the best damn thing to happen to this game - arguably the best part of CXP/GC imo. MAYBE...just maybe...by having that top tier gear, they'll be encouraged to try something they were cautious about before.

 

Agreed. It is the only good thing to come out of CXP/GC, aside from perhaps the other gear for space barbie moments. :p

[TUXs]

So finally you DID get it. The whole point was that you preferred one specific explanation for this gap, while several others tried to point out that there are multiple other possible explanations. Therefore you can't use it as an argument for either side here.

 

Personally, with all I said before and experienced in other games, I expected this gap to be even larger, so it doesn't really strike me at odd ar all. On the contrary, if anything, it's a bit small, but still in the expected range.

It's not MY graph, it's Biowares, and It proves that 57 million characters were created, only 6.8 million ever got their ship. If only 12% of the characters ever got their ships, it's unrealistic to state that most players quit because of a lack of story, since your ship is a part of the story. The numbers don't support that excuse. Period.

[Toraak]

I pretty clearly said several times that everyone is getting scraps right now, if you actually tried reading my post. But if you think story is geting more than group stuff right now or that 10 mins of story in.a year is a lot, or on par with what sseused to have, you are deluding yourself.

 

Yes Story is on Par with everything else. Iokath is longer then 10 mins, as is umbara. Operations players haven't even gotten 1 full operation since 3.0 so story is definitely getting more then operation players, and PvP players have only gotten Iokath open world PvP (which nobody has done) so they have gotten outright NOTHING since 5.0

Edited October 18, 2017 by Toraak

[DWho]

It's not MY graph, it's Biowares, and It proves that 57 million characters were created, only 6.8 million ever got their ship. If only 12% of the characters ever got their ships, it's unrealistic to state that most players quit because of a lack of story, since your ship is a part of the story. The numbers don't support that excuse. Period.

 

The numbers don't support that any content was the cause of people leaving. There was no lack of story, there was no lack of end game content, and there was no lack of PVP content. Some people came to the game thinking it was KOTOR 3, which it wasn't. Technical issues were the main problem at launch and people gave up on the game because it was believed to be full of bugs and "not ready for prime time". The lesson to be learned there is that rushing out content, and launch was rushed, leads to a buggy game and bad player retention.

[HuaRya]

It would be so easy to create new story quests in existing planets. Belsavis, Balmorra, Alderaan, Tatooine , Voss, etc. are huge vanilla worlds to insert dungeons (for lack of a better description). All the props are built from previous content. No need to try and flesh out worlds smaller than Ziost when so much real estate exists that most people power leveled through..

[TUXs]

The numbers don't support that any content was the cause of people leaving. There was no lack of story, there was no lack of end game content, and there was no lack of PVP content. Some people came to the game thinking it was KOTOR 3, which it wasn't. Technical issues were the main problem at launch and people gave up on the game because it was believed to be full of bugs and "not ready for prime time". The lesson to be learned there is that rushing out content, and launch was rushed, leads to a buggy game and bad player retention.

EXACTLY!!!!

 

There were MANY reasons, especially around launch...very few had to do with lack of story.

[TUXs]

It would be so easy to create new story quests in existing planets. Belsavis, Balmorra, Alderaan, Tatooine , Voss, etc. are huge vanilla worlds to insert dungeons (for lack of a better description). All the props are built from previous content. No need to try and flesh out worlds smaller than Ziost when so much real estate exists that most people power leveled through..

Especially now with Level Sync...give us a reason to go back. Wasn't Voss an important part of the vanilla story? What ever happened there?

[Icykill_]

It's not MY graph, it's Biowares, and It proves that 57 million characters were created, only 6.8 million ever got their ship. If only 12% of the characters ever got their ships, it's unrealistic to state that most players quit because of a lack of story, since your ship is a part of the story. The numbers don't support that excuse. Period.

 

Just to play devils advocate... It’s possible that people didn’t go on to get the ships because they disliked the story(s) and changed class... stopped playing... or just played pvp and GSF

As far fetched as this sounds... you can’t rule out them leaving because they didn’t like the story... which means they didn’t leave for lack of story... they left because of the story... bahahaha

Edited October 18, 2017 by Icykill_

[Eshvara]

Just to play devils advocate... It’s possible that people didn’t go on to get the ships because they disliked the story(s) and changed class... stopped playing... or just played pvp and GSF

As far fetched as this sounds... you can’t rule out them leaving because they didn’t like the story... which means they didn’t leave for lack of story... they left because of the story... bahahaha

 

Whoa whoa!! You returned. Welcome back.

[Cruxa]

It's not MY graph, it's Biowares, and It proves that 57 million characters were created, only 6.8 million ever got their ship. If only 12% of the characters ever got their ships, it's unrealistic to state that most players quit because of a lack of story, since your ship is a part of the story. The numbers don't support that excuse. Period.

 

Where did I say it was your graph? Or was that a try to remind everyone that these are Bioware's numbers, in case anyone had forgotten?

 

Anyway, at least now you're acknowledging that it's 12% of characters created, not players as originally stated. And exactly, the numbers don't support this hypothesis, but only because they support no hypothesis at all. There were multiple reasons given why players didn't finish the second planet on 90% of their characters (for me, as a story player, it's even 98% of all my characters ever created that didn't get past level 10).

 

The statistic of "characters CREATED" says nothing at all. A more meaningful number would have been "characters with at least level 2" or even "existing characters". But I guess that number would have been much lower, so of course as Developers you state the better looking value, even though that value has no meaning at all on closer look.