could we please get a straight answer?

[Bristol]

I appreciate the data and I sympathize with the frustration. I have no clue how BW came to the conclusion that they did. I think they should come out and do the math, show us what their models are.

 

I'm just tired of people saying that these damage and healing nerfs are exclusively or largely due to PvP complaints. If that were true, it would defy what BW has been telling us.

 

I agree, whole heatedly, I AGREE!

 

I have multi-million dollar customers and BOY-HOWDY, you should see the time and effort that my department puts into the PowerPoint slides to communicate how all of the measures that our customers hold dear are addressed with all of the how-comes, why-for's with a smattering of check out these new dew-dads for good measure. There are matrices and performance plots and timelines. And, if at the end of the day, they still don't feel like their issues are being heard, white collar or not, the people sent to bust my butt have no compulsion about dropping f-bomb after f-bomb until me and my management adequately address the latest burr in their bonnet.

 

I personally feel that my issues with SWTOR are not being addressed and I am not satisfied with the level of communication being employed to adequately quell my concerns. My frustration is only further inflamed when I see that another splinter of the gaming community (aka my competition) is being promised a level of communication that is not being offered to me and my concerns.

[teclado]

My frustration is only further inflamed when I see that another splinter of the gaming community (aka my competition) is being promised a level of communication that is not being offered to me and my concerns.

Oh, so you do like PvP then!

 

I would throw out a guess that most SWTOR players don't want to see the math, because their eyes would gloss over and they would get a headache even glancing at it. As somebody who actually likes math, to me that sort of thing is necessary. Many players have been doing "napkin math" trying to figure out if these changes line up with what BW has stated their goals to be. In some cases, the math doesn't seem to jive with what BW said. It would be nice for them to drop in and say either: 1. "Oh, you are right...we are going to fix that" or 2. "Nope, you did not account for this. Here's how we arrived at these nerf numbers."

 

I'm guessing they won't do that because the combat team (the ones who did the math and could explain it) are specifically not posting on the forums in order to protect them from angry players. Musco, Keith, Charles probably have a decent understanding of the why, but probably aren't comfortable putting themselves in the position of trying to defend the combat team's math / models. If they had to keep going back and forth with the combat team to relay answers to specific questions, they would have to constantly pester and slow down the team, which would slow down balance work.

 

Just a guess...

Edited June 27, 2017 by teclado

[Alec_Fortescue]

REMOVE Bolster, it just has a history of being exploited a lot. Make gearing faster through PvP. 700 tokens for full 230 is actually A LOT of effort and the gap between 230s and 248 is MASSIVE in terms of performance.

 

PvP simply needs to be just as fast a way of getting decent gear as PvE is.

 

My 2Cent as a mainly pvp player. Since November I have only managed to get a single set of 248s, didn't even get 242s before gear cap raise, because pvp progression is so slow.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Alec_Fortescue

[Evolixe]

We are working on getting a discussion topic together on this very thing, bolster. We want to ensure that we explain our stance on bolster, gearing, and expertise, and then see how everyone feels we should proceed. I am hopeful that it will be this weeks discussion topic.

 

-eric

 

Very good. Hopefully we can get this nonsense about gear being so awefully decisive in PvP out of the way.

PvP is about the players. Not the gear. And it never should be.

 

REMOVE Bolster, it just has a history of being exploited a lot. Make gearing faster through PvP. 700 tokens for full 230 is actually A LOT of effort and the gap between 230s and 248 is MASSIVE in terms of performance.

 

PvP simply needs to be just as fast a way of getting decent gear as PvE is.

 

My 2Cent as a mainly pvp player. Since November I have only managed to get a single set of 248s, didn't even get 242s before gear cap raise, because pvp progression is so slow.

 

They can't do that because getting full gear through pvp in 2 weeks would make a lot of PvE players just lose interest.

 

I'm one of those to think they should've never removed PvP gear to begin with.

It was, and still is, the best way to keep both worlds separated properly.

If PvP gear was only good for PvP, then it wouldn't matter how fast you could gain gear.

 

 

As someone who frequently engages in high-end PvE and PvP alike,

let's eliminate all the differences in stats and get everyone on equal footing.

Customization on stat distribution would still be a good thing, but the actual availability of those stats should never be in question.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Evolixe

[bncsmom]

We are working on getting a discussion topic together on this very thing, bolster. We want to ensure that we explain our stance on bolster, gearing, and expertise, and then see how everyone feels we should proceed. I am hopeful that it will be this weeks discussion topic.

 

-eric

 

How I feel about it:

 

Bring Expertise And PVP Gear Back!!!

 

It was a huge mistake to take it out to begin with.

[Eli_Porter]

How I feel about it:

 

Bring Expertise And PVP Gear Back!!!

 

It was a huge mistake to take it out to begin with.

 

Please don't, I'd really hate having 4 different sets of gear for my character if I want to PvP with both specs.

[teclado]

Please don't, I'd really hate having 4 different sets of gear for my character if I want to PvP with both specs.

Are you talking about a DPS / tank class, e.g. Jugg? You pretty much do need that right now, at least three. One set for dps (plus some enhancements and augments to move around for PvE vs PvP setup - acc, alac, crit, power adjustments), one set for PvE tank (with shield / absorb / defense), and finally a third set for PvP tank (tank armorings with dps mods and enhancements, fortitude augs).

 

The difference is that now it takes a lot longer to get those setups for PvP. You still have to carry them, unless you are OK with mediocre - poor warzone performance, which is no different than from 3.3 to 4.x (bolster gave you mediocre - poor performance in your PvE gear).

 

So, the reality is that with expertise or no expertise, nothing changes in terms of how many gear sets you have to carry. It all depends on what kind of performance level you want.

Edited June 27, 2017 by teclado

[Sertar]

Can you guys please calm down and leave your emotions out of the discussion? Making PvP and PvE gear the same is like THE one big and really good change of 5.0! Yes, you can argue about the gear grind taking too long, being alt-unfriendly and the gap between bolster level and BiS level being too big. In my opinion it's fine as it is, now that you can get 230s with Command Tokens.

But please, please don't go back to expertise. It's causing so many problems that we had for years and you guys are just so much in your CXP and bolster bashing that you forget how bad it was.

[Eli_Porter]

Are you talking about a DPS / tank class, e.g. Jugg? You pretty much do need that right now, at least three.

 

Yes, and it's one of the reasons I don't PvP with my Guardian anymore (Hoping the healer nerf makes my tank gear viable in regs again).

 

And DPS/Healer classes will go from having one set of left-side and two sets of right-side to two sets of left-side and four sets of right-side.

Edited June 28, 2017 by Eli_Porter

[KhaoTicTycoon]

Having read through all of the comments in this thread there is 1 suggestion I have not seen anyone make and I'm curious as to what people's thoughts would be.

 

 

• 
  Stat sync / Bolster DOWN people's gear to an equal level
  

 

If Bioware were able to implement such a system that still allowed people to customize there stats using whatever specific Mods / Enhancements they wanted this would seem to alleviate A LOT if not ALL the complaints people are having about the current gear grind while still allowing people to freely move between PVE & PVP without having to constantly change gear (if something a kin to "expertise" were added again).

 

At the same time hardcore / casual gear junkies a like would still have something to work towards if they really wanted to have BiS gear for there toons.

[Transcendent]

We want to ensure that we explain our stance on bolster, gearing, and expertise, and then see how everyone feels we should proceed.

 

That'll be an interesting topic, especially as not only does it affect PvP players who generally tend to prefer skill based PvP, but now due to the removal of Expertise it also affects PvE players playing a different game mode as a means to a gear upgrade path.

 

I'm not even sure how you can address this fairly and cater to the game mode it directly affects, and those players who primarily play that game mode with no interest in PvE content.

[TUXs]

They can't do that because getting full gear through pvp in 2 weeks would make a lot of PvE players just lose interest.

 

I'm one of those to think they should've never removed PvP gear to begin with.

It was, and still is, the best way to keep both worlds separated properly.

If PvP gear was only good for PvP, then it wouldn't matter how fast you could gain gear.

 

As someone who frequently engages in high-end PvE and PvP alike,

let's eliminate all the differences in stats and get everyone on equal footing.

Customization on stat distribution would still be a good thing, but the actual availability of those stats should never be in question.

I agree - they absolutely can NOT remove Bolster...it would be the death of casual PvP...even alt PvP would drop off if that were to happen. Bolster needs to be increased to 246 for PvP imo. Allow 248's to have a slight boost, but just get rid of the massive gear gap that exists...it's ridiculous right now.

 

I'm fine with the PvP gear being removed. I don't think they ever used Expertise as intended. It should have been the easy stat to tweak to address imbalances in healing, DPS or mitigation, without ever impacting PvE...but it wasn't. It became a static stat that never got touched once added to the game. If they bring anything back, it needs to be Expertise, but not on gear. Apply it to each class and advanced class individually.

 

Balance everything they want around their 5 min parse for PvE, but use Expertise as the tweak for PvP, as it was obviously meant to be. Damage reduction, healing boost, damage increase...adjust those specifically to PvP.

[TyonYlle]

Honestly, and this post will be coming from a complete newbie. But once I am able to get a better internet plan, I was thinking about trying a little PVP. I would rather they don't bring back PVP gear. That was a big reason why I didn't try it before. I just found it so hella confusing! Although, admittedly I didn't feel up to learning how to gear twice!

 

PVP now generally seems more newbie friendly, I think.

Edited June 28, 2017 by TyonYlle

[Eshvara]

Honestly, and this post will be coming from a complete newbie. But once I am able to get a better internet plan, I was thinking about trying a little PVP. I would rather they don't bring back PVP gear. That was a big reason why I didn't try it before. I just found it so hella confusing! Although, admittedly I didn't feel up to learning how to gear twice!

 

PVP now generally seems more newbie friendly, I think.

 

Are you still levelling? I wonder what you'll think when you jump into warzones with gear that isn't at least at Iokath grade.

This system really isn't Newby friendly. It takes too long to get gear and you'll be behind for a very long time. Unless that seems good to you, then yah!

Edited June 28, 2017 by Eshvara

[teclado]

Making PvP and PvE gear the same is like THE one big and really good change of 5.0! Yes, you can argue about the gear grind taking too long, being alt-unfriendly and the gap between bolster level and BiS level being too big. In my opinion it's fine as it is, now that you can get 230s with Command Tokens.

But please, please don't go back to expertise. It's causing so many problems that we had for years and you guys are just so much in your CXP and bolster bashing that you forget how bad it was.

I read that first part as "getting rid of expertise was awesome! I mean, it sucks in a number of ways, but it's awesome!" But seriously, it cannot simultaneously suck and be awesome. That would mean it's a net neutral thing.

 

The 230s are not necessarily better than the old pvp 208 stuff, after bolster does its thing. The bolster cap is at 238. I honestly have not put in the time to try different things and see which bolsters better right now, but I recall a time early in 5.0 in which the 208 stuff bolstered better than 230. That may or may not still be the case. So the 230s with command tokens are kind of useless if you already have 208 with set bonus, which I already did on about 12 different characters. In pvp, 248 vs 230 is kind of a big deal.

 

The only problem that expertise was causing was the fact that bolster nerfed high end (220+) PvE gear too harshly, to the extent that 190 blues bolstered better. All that BW had to do was fix that and we would have been fine. Yeah, it was super confusing to have to down-gear from your 224s in order to do better in warzones. All BW had to do was fix that.

 

Many have said, and continue to insist, that it sucked having to carry two (or more) gear sets. I agree to a certain extent. However, as I outlined in my previous post, you still have to carry two or more gear sets!! I sure do. Oh, and by the way, it takes about 100 times (probably not an exaggeration) longer to get the set for pvp because we can't have pvp'ers getting raid gear. So can we please stop trying to claim that it's better now without expertise because we don't have to carry more than one gear set? That's false.

 

You know what I think? I think that expertise was some sort of nebulous thing that people didn't really understand, and therefore we had to kill it.

 

I'm not trying to sound harsh or overly critical, but I am very familiar with how expertise worked and I keep reading factually incorrect statements about it. It's really getting on my nerves. It seems like my gaming experience was ruined because of other people's misunderstandings.

[Eli_Porter]

Many have said, and continue to insist, that it sucked having to carry two (or more) gear sets. I agree to a certain extent. However, as I outlined in my previous post, you still have to carry two or more gear sets!! I sure do. Oh, and by the way, it takes about 100 times (probably not an exaggeration) longer to get the set for pvp because we can't have pvp'ers getting raid gear. So can we please stop trying to claim that it's better now without expertise because we don't have to carry more than one gear set? That's false..

 

Pretty poor argument... "Yeah you already need to carry two or three sets of gear on a character, what's so bad about having to carry one or two more sets of gear?". To me it looks as if you're saying "you're already suffering, what's a bit more to ya?"

Edited June 28, 2017 by Eli_Porter

[micnevv]

The argument against having to carry multiple sets is somewhat silly if I'm being truthfully honest here.

 

I currently have a cargo bay and a half filled with shells of all kinds of GC gear. I've never had to hold on to so much gear in the past with separate sets for different content.

 

I'd much rather spend 10 extra seconds to equip different gear than have to deal with the current gear gap. And it's not like you have to apply an outfit stamp to each set of gear like in WoW.

Edited June 28, 2017 by micnevv

[Eli_Porter]

That's what cargo bays are for, gear you might need at some point. Not for switching gear whenever you wanna do PvP instead of PvE because your inventory barely has room for 4 sets of gear. Edited June 28, 2017 by Eli_Porter

[Eshvara]

The argument against having to carry multiple sets is somewhat silly if I'm being truthfully honest here.

 

I currently have a cargo bay and a half filled with shells of all kinds of GC gear. I've never had to hold on to so much gear in the past with separate sets for different content.

 

And it's not like you have to apply an outfit stamp to each set of gear like in WoW. I'd much rather spend 10 seconds to equip different gear than have to deal with the current gear gap.

 

Yeah I'm the exact same way!

[teclado]

Eli, I don't think we're on the same page.

 

I'm saying that yes, we had to carry more than one gear set when we had expertise, but we still do. Nothing changed except now gearing is much much MUCH slower.

 

I used Jugg/Guardian as an example. If you want to play Vengeance / Vigilance in operations, you need a dps set with the following goal in mind:

Juggernaut - Vengeance || Guardian - Vigilance

10027+-372 DPS @ 47.2 APM | 8673 Endurance | 6884 Mastery | 3964 Power

1813 Critical (4xE, 6xA, 2xC) | 1635 Alacrity (5xE, 5xA) | 759 Accuracy (1xE, 3xA, Stim)

Now if you want to PvP with that set, you need to make a number of modifications. That is way too much crit, alacrity, and accuracy. You either have to move a number of enhancements, augments, implants/earpiece, or just accept the fact that you are entering a warzone with a non-optimal set of stats for pvp (equivalent to going into a warzone with a PvE set back in 4.x). Yes, many people do that now, and many people did that back in 4.x. No change.

 

If you want to play Immortal / Defence in operations, you need a tank set with the following goal in mind:

Juggernaut - Immortal || Guardian - Defence

75.96% Reduction | 7825 Endurance (2xC, Stim) | 7127 Mastery | 910 Power

4063 Defense | 2037 Shield (7xE, 3xA) | 1749 Absorb (3xE, 11xA)

Now if you want to PvP with that set...nearly everything changes. You'll want to keep the tank armorings (with tank set bonus), but get dps relics, dps ear/implants, dps mods (possibly B mods), dps enhancements, and fortitude augments. The traditional tank stats (defense / shield / absorb) don't work very well in PvP. It's impractical to move that much stuff around when you change activities, therefore you need a completely different gear set. You have to grind your tank set twice. We all know how long it takes to get one 248 set. I'll probably never get there. This is a massive difference from 4.x - massively worse change.

 

When we had expertise, it was very possible and quite easy to make a PvP tank set like that with maybe two weeks of casual play. Now, it's basically impossible for a casual player to ever get there.

Edited June 28, 2017 by teclado

[micnevv]

That's what cargo bays are for, gear you might need at some point. Not for switching gear whenever you wanna do PvP instead of PvE because your inventory barely has room for 4 sets of gear.

 

Well in that case the argument goes both ways. You can keep your PVP gear in the cargo bay, it's not like you're going to need it in the middle of an ops run.

 

I'll admit that I don't really see this as an issue so I don't have much else to contribute to this particular discussion regarding having an extra set of gear in your inventory.

Edited June 28, 2017 by micnevv

[Foambreaker]

We are working on getting a discussion topic together on this very thing, bolster. We want to ensure that we explain our stance on bolster, gearing, and expertise, and then see how everyone feels we should proceed. I am hopeful that it will be this weeks discussion topic.

 

-eric

 

Discussion: Should raiders get an unfair advantage?

 

If this development team had any commitment whatsoever to fair play this would not even be a discussion.

 

You should all be ashamed of yourselves.

[DWho]

The reason people had to carry two sets of gear before was that PVE gear was totally useless in PVP and PVP gear was totally useless in PVE. The gear gap existed before it just didn't exist within the full-time PVP community and now it does. Now, carrying 2 sets (or more) of gear is for a 5% difference in performance (outside of DPS/Tank/Healer switching).

 

Is it possible that these changes were designed to get people to play all aspects of the game instead of just one? That would make it easier for developing content because each update would "last longer" before people got bored with it. That way people who did play all aspects of the game would have an advantage.

[TyonYlle]

Are you still levelling? I wonder what you'll think when you jump into warzones with gear that isn't at least at Iokath grade.

This system really isn't Newby friendly. It takes too long to get gear and you'll be behind for a very long time. Unless that seems good to you, then yah!

 

Yeah, I have one charrie at Iokath level. But, isn't there still such a thing as lowbies? I often seen people asking lowbies to join the pvp queue.

 

It was just, in my mind, I didn't want to learn all about expertise, now with one gear set, you (general you) need only learn how to gear once. To mean, that seems easier if albeit it takes a little longer, but all we can do is wait and see until Musco/Keith gets the bolster thread up.

[Eli_Porter]

The reason people had to carry two sets of gear before was that PVE gear was totally useless in PVP and PVP gear was totally useless in PVE. The gear gap existed before it just didn't exist within the full-time PVP community and now it does. Now, carrying 2 sets (or more) of gear is for a 5% difference in performance (outside of DPS/Tank/Healer switching).

 

This ^

 

I can use my PvE Vigilance setup in PvP and not feel like a cripple (though vigilance is close to cripple in regs it's more due to the spec). Maybe it'll be the same for my PvE Defense setup in regs after the healer nerf.

Edited June 28, 2017 by Eli_Porter