could we please get a straight answer?

[teclado]

Maybe it'll be the same for my PvE Defence setup in regs after the healer nerf.

I don't understand what you mean by this. How are they related?

[TyonYlle]

Before whilst we still had expertise. I often saw people instructing the team to go for the guy in PVE gear, and the other team likely said that about me, because I was one of them.

 

My stance would be a little different if I felt comfortable to ask a PVPer to "come off to the side" after a match and explain to me how I needed to gear. Yeah, that's my fault for being too shy, but most PVPers don't seem too approachable and willing to teach. All most are after is a quick queue, then they leave the moment a match ends to requeue.

[teclado]

Before whilst we still had expertise. I often saw people instructing the team to go for the guy in PVE gear, and the other team likely said that about me, because I was one of them.

 

My stance would be a little different if I felt comfortable to ask a PVPer to "come off to the side" after a match and explain to me how I needed to gear. Yeah, that's my fault for being too shy, but most PVPers don't seem too approachable and willing to teach. All most are after is a quick queue, then they leave the moment a match ends to requeue.

Oh yeah, this was absolutely the case. I have no idea why BW set up bolster to penalize high end PvE gear so harshly back in the 4.x days. What you had to do was put together a 190 blue set and pvp in that, replace with 204 pvp pieces as you got them (which of course those came very quickly). It only took about 4k warzone comms to get a full 204 set, which wasn't that much considering you got 140 comms for a win, up to 90 for a loss...I can't remember how many for daily / weekly. I think the daily was 300?

 

There were posts over in the pvp forums detailing this stuff, and I was happy to tell people this. Unfortunately, I had a few too many 224 geared folks tell me to go screw myself when I tried to tell them this.

 

Anyway, the fault was with how BW tuned bolster. All they had to do was re-tune bolster to not nuke high end PvE gear so harshly and everything would have been fine. People could PvP in their PvE stuff and only suffer minimal difference. It's like BW knew that something was wrong, but didn't really understand what. So rather than fixing the broken alternator belt, they decided to rip out the engine and put in a new one.

Edited June 28, 2017 by teclado

[Eli_Porter]

I don't understand what you mean by this. How are they related?

 

skank tanks easier to kill = normal tanks are more viable

[TyonYlle]

There were posts over in the pvp forums detailing this stuff, and I was happy to tell people this. Unfortunately, I had a few too many 224 geared folks tell me to go screw myself when I tried to tell them this.

Oh, damn, I'm sorry to hear that!

 

Oh yeah, this was absolutely the case. I have no idea why BW set up bolster to penalize high end PvE gear so harshly back in the 4.x days. What you had to do was put together a 190 blue set and pvp in that, replace with 204 pvp pieces as you got them (which of course those came very quickly). It only took about 4k warzone comms to get a full 204 set, which wasn't that much considering you got 140 comms for a win, up to 90 for a loss...I can't remember how many for daily / weekly. I think the daily was 300?

 

Well, sure, but I sure plenty of times PVPers being a ***** and berating for poor performance. When that performance is a result of not having the proper gear.

 

I think it's more of a case that some PVPers forget what it's like to just start out. Then, as a direct result the newbies are too quick to label all PVPers the same, as in with what happened to you.

 

Pretty much, it seems we all lose, in the end! ahaha

[micnevv]

Before whilst we still had expertise. I often saw people instructing the team to go for the guy in PVE gear, and the other team likely said that about me, because I was one of them.

 

My stance would be a little different if I felt comfortable to ask a PVPer to "come off to the side" after a match and explain to me how I needed to gear. Yeah, that's my fault for being too shy, but most PVPers don't seem too approachable and willing to teach. All most are after is a quick queue, then they leave the moment a match ends to requeue.

 

This issue still exists though. It's just not as noticeable because very few people have correctly geared toons for PVP right now. I'll use my assassin as an example: It's in mostly min/maxed 248s, anyone who isnt wearing 244+ gets absolutely shredded.

 

So before in 4.0 you had to trudge through a few games to get your set of T1 PVP gear, all it took was a day or two of PVPing. Now you have to deal with people like me on my assassin one-shotting you for more than 2 weeks. Gearing purely through PVP is a nightmare right now.

 

All I want Bioware to do is re-introduce PVP gear (4.0 speed) and significantly improve bolster. Ideally bolster would be around 3% lower than a set of augmented T1 PVP gear. That way PVPers would be rewarded in a meaningful way, and PVEers would not be punished.

Edited June 28, 2017 by micnevv

[teclado]

Oh, damn, I'm sorry to hear that!

It's all good. I think they were probably just feeling defensive, as I'm sure they had been taking flack from some of the not-so-helpful PvP crowd.

 

All I want Bioware to do is re-introduce PVP gear and significantly improve bolster. Ideally bolster would be around 3% to 5% lower than a set of augmented T1 PVP gear. That way PVPers would be rewarded in a meaningful way, and PVEers would not be punished.

This would make me so happy. I'm totally cool with having a slower progression for ops gear (yeah, I do like ops). Slow progression shouldn't be a thing in PvP IMO. I'm not looking to have a gear advantage over people (I'm sure that some are, but that's not me).

 

Maybe the 3.3 to 4.x PvP gearing was too fast and people lost interest? If so, that's fine - make it slower than 3.3, but surely what we have now is way too much of a grind for PvP gear. There has to be a middle ground.

[TyonYlle]

This would make me so happy. I'm totally cool with having a slower progression for ops gear (yeah, I do like ops). Slow progression shouldn't be a thing in PvP IMO. I'm not looking to have a gear advantage over people (I'm sure that some are, but that's not me).

 

Maybe the 3.3 to 4.x PvP gearing was too fast and people lost interest? If so, that's fine - make it slower than 3.3, but surely what we have now is way too much of a grind for PvP gear. There has to be a middle ground.

 

What if PVP gear was purchasable via command tokens? This would probably allow newbies to gear before actually learning to PVP. At least then, if they're already geared, they won't need to take the flak from some of the PVPers. Some might still complain about their skill level, but people are inherently a bag of dix. Yes, that was a Markimoo reference!

 

After all, everyone, no matter how skillfull at PVP had to start somewhere, yeah?

[HuaRya]

Creating 2 sets of gear is going back to what hundreds of threads pleaded to go away from.

 

You'll find this funny:

 

Way back pre 2.0 I assumed there was only one set of gear for this game. So I did flashpoints in order to gear up for the thing I ultimately wanted to do which was pvp. The FP's were fun and before I knew it I went from barely any Tionese to full Black Hole gear. Then I went into a warzone. People were emote mocking me and I didn't really understand why. I got throttled and then someone told me about recruit gear. I stopped doing FP's that day and stuck with PVP going all the way up to Elite War Hero.

 

Now we can have one set of gear for doing anything in the game. Using the example above someone can go off and do FP's, Operations, Heroics, Uprisings, GSF to get the full 248's AND THEN they can do what they desire most PVP.

 

Edited June 28, 2017 by HuaRya

[TUXs]

You'll find this funny:

 

Way back pre 2.0 I assumed there was only one set of gear for this game. So I did flashpoints in order to gear up for the thing I ultimately wanted to do which was pvp. The FP's were fun and before I knew it I went from barely any Tionese to full Black Hole gear. Then I went into a warzone. People were emote mocking me and I didn't really understand why. I got throttled and then someone told me about recruit gear. I stopped doing FP's that day and stuck with PVP going all the way up to Elite War Hero.

The biggest mistake they made with gearing was THIS imo. They literally PENALIZED people for doing the most obvious and logical thing, wearing their best gear into a WZ. I will never understand how the hell that got implemented into the game...ever.

 

Oh yeah....and this: /e looks at Hua's gear and makes the shape of an L on his forehead

[Anzel]

We are working on getting a discussion topic together on this very thing, bolster. We want to ensure that we explain our stance on bolster, gearing, and expertise, and then see how everyone feels we should proceed. I am hopeful that it will be this weeks discussion topic.

 

-eric

 

For the love of all that is holy please do NOT bring back Expertise. I hated having to deal with separate sets of gear. I don't want to visit the bank every time I change from PvP to Flash Points or Uprisings. This would be a terrible solution to a simple problem.

[DarthSpuds]

What? *Sigh*

 

I don't know why people always assume that nerfs are due to PvP, .

 

Because no NPC in the entire history of MMORPGs has ever said "No fair, he killed me, Nerf him now!", and pretty much EVERY PvPer in EVERY game I have ever played has?

 

Just a guess.

 

All The Best

Edited June 28, 2017 by DarthSpuds

[DarthSpuds]

For the love of all that is holy please do NOT bring back Expertise. I hated having to deal with separate sets of gear. I don't want to visit the bank every time I change from PvP to Flash Points or Uprisings. This would be a terrible solution to a simple problem.

 

Well, if they put Expertise on ALL gear but have it have an effect ONLY in PvP you could still run with just one set of Gear.

 

But that would a) be too simple, and b) take away some grind, so it won't happen.

 

All The Best

Edited June 28, 2017 by DarthSpuds

[TUXs]

Well, if they put Expertise on ALL gear but have it have an effect ONLY in PvP you could still run with just one set of Gear.

 

But that would a) be too simple, and b) take away some grind, so it won't happen.

 

All The Best

I'd be fine with this too, as long as it did what it was meant to do...it needs to be the way they balance the difference between a 5-min dummy parse for PvE and a 15-second PvP fight. Bringing it back as it was is useless. It was obviously meant to be what they tweaked, they just never did.

[teclado]

Because no NPC in the entire history of MMORPGs has ever said "No fair, he killed me so he must be OP", and pretty much EVERY PvPer in EVERY game I have ever played has?

 

Just a guess.

 

All The Best

I'm probably spamming this thread too much, but...

 

Understand that PvE content cannot be made to be too easy, otherwise many players will lose interest. Having an OP class in PvE trivializes the difficulty of that content. What's the point of having HM or NiM operations if they are not extremely challenging?

 

You're also making the assumption that the devs listen to balance complaints from anybody, let alone PvPers. For exhibit A, I point to the fact that everybody in PvP was complaining about Merc defensives, then BW proceeds to nerf Merc damage. Therefore, that nerf was not due to the devs listening to the PvPers at all.

 

Take in the entirety of the "How Class Balance Happens" and the "Nerfs vs Buffs" threads and posts by Eric and you will see that this 5.3 round of balancing has little to nothing to do with PvP.

 

Well, if they put Expertise on ALL gear but have it have an effect ONLY in PvP you could still run with just one set of Gear.

 

But that would a) be too simple, and b) take away some grind, so it won't happen.

 

All The Best

That still wouldn't work, for reasons that I typed in detail up that way a ways ^^.

 

TLDR is that stat optimizations are different in PvP vs PvE, especially for tanks. This goal of having a single gear set will be a mythical unicorn so long as stat optimizations are different between the two activities. It can be marginalized to the point where most people won't care enough to put in the effort of maintaining two sets.

Edited June 28, 2017 by teclado

[teclado]

EDIT: accidental double post, edit fail. Edited June 28, 2017 by teclado

[Icykill_]

Honestly we don't need expertise anymore and would be way to hard to implement again

 

There is only one fast, viable and cost effective way to address the issue and that is with Bolster

Edited June 28, 2017 by Icykill_

[Andryah]

Honestly we don't need expertise anymore and would be way to hard to implement again

 

There is only one fast, viable and cost effective way to address the issue and that is with Bolster

 

^^ Accurate assessment in my view.

 

Expertise entered MMOs years ago as a way to put a wall between PvE and PvP. It was a bad idea then, and it is a bad idea now. It will be a bad idea in the future too... regardless of the MMO being discussed.

 

Bolster, or some other mechanic that makes all players essentially "stat equal", is the way to go with PvP 17 years into the new millennium. PvP should reward skill, tactics, and teamwork over all else.. and any mechanism that inoculates PvP from gear and gear grinds is a good thing in my view. Class balance plays a role as well, but in the PvP space there seems to be an inordinate amount of lobbying for each players favored class to get the most Whipped Cream and Cherries on the ability desert.

[BadHoneyBadger]

Are there any plans to either:

 

1) Raise bolster in warzones to 248 or beyond.

2) Or to reintroduce PVP gear and expertise.

 

These are the only viable options I can think of. Increasing the rate of UCs in warzones is not really an option: too small an increase and it would not solve gear disparity for PVP, and too large an increase and it would rival Operations as a means to get gear.

 

Are these options currently being considered? And if the answer is a solid no, then please just say so.

 

And I can only urge you to re-read your own past reflections on gearing for PVP.

 

I would venture to say No until there is another couple tiers of gear out for the following reason:

1) You are wanting something for nothing - Why should other players grind pvp, operations, heroics, and ect to get the best gear possible just for someone that did ZERO work to be on a par level with them?

2) The casual players are already catered to - They have already changed the gear aqusition to cater to the unlucky or casual players. You can straight up buy 236's with pvp unassembled components or a full set of 230 set bonus gear with Tokens

[TyonYlle]

If PVP truly is about skill Vs skill like what some people have mentioned, and they don't want to utterly destroy people if they have vastly better gear. Why don't BW just use bolster to make ALL gear the same. This would allow newbies an easier time entering into the world of PVP. They would just need to learn to play, and PVPers should be more happy to teach them that then they seem to like berating their "PVE" gear.

 

In my mind, PVP should never be about grinding. PVP is players against other players, a social interaction given that this is an MMO. The enjoyment should come from the matches, not grinding to aquire "the better gear" that allows you (general you) to mop the floor with people.

[Eli_Porter]

If PVP truly is about skill Vs skill like what some people have mentioned, and they don't want to utterly destroy people if they have vastly better gear. Why don't BW just use bolster to make ALL gear the same. This would allow newbies an easier time entering into the world of PVP. They would just need to learn to play, and PVPers should be more happy to teach them that then they seem to like berating their "PVE" gear.

 

In my mind, PVP should never be about grinding. PVP is players against other players, a social interaction given that this is an MMO. The enjoyment should come from the matches, not grinding to aquire "the better gear" that allows you (general you) to mop the floor with people.

 

Almost every MMO I've played with a well-received PvP system had a way to improve your character, well past a few weeks of play. Competitive players usually don't mind the minor difference in performance if it means attracting and retaining players.

 

If you want a PvP experience with an emphasis on balance and skill rather than progression, I suggest you play a game designed for that.

[TyonYlle]

Almost every MMO I've played with a well-received PvP system had a way to improve your character, well past a few weeks of play. Competitive players usually don't mind the minor difference in performance if it means attracting and retaining players.

 

If you want a PvP experience with an emphasis on balance and skill rather than progression, I suggest you play a game designed for that.

 

My post was towards all I have seen about people saying how PVP is, or should be about skill vs skill.

[EricMusco]

The Bolster discussion thread is now live: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9345818. Let us know your thoughts over in that thread!

 

-eric

[kodrac]

Please, no more expertise. It was too much of a roadblock. People would come into PvP with their super sweet purple ops gear and get nerfed by bolster and be a detriment to your team. And trying to explain it to them was just asking for an e-peen slap.

 

If expertise is re-introduced then give Cyber-techs schematics for intro level mods, blue only, no RE.

[kodrac]

The Bolster discussion thread is now live: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9345818. Let us know your thoughts over in that thread!

 

-eric

 

Bah, if only I would've read to the last page...