Server Merge Discussion Thread

[Brolevio]

if you can't do group stuff in an mmorpg easily because lack of players, your game is in serious trouble.

 

+1 for mergers.

[Tisaren]

The premise behind one or two mega servers seems to be:

 

1. There aren't enough people for PUG Ops/flashpoints/PvP on my server. Therefore, if I force other players from other servers to join me, I will have enough people to play with.

 

The problems with this premise:

 

1. There are many people on those servers who will not do PUG Ops/etc. regardless of where they are. They either play with friends or guildmates or they are solo players. So no, you won't have them to play with. If you're expecting some dramatic influx of PUG players from a merger serve, think again.

 

2. People who are truly invested in doing group content already have the option to move to a more populated server on their own. If they're on a dead server and complaining about it, they have an option that doesn't bother anyone else.

 

3. Solo/RPG players do feel alienated and harassed on certain servers. You might think it's fine to sacrifice them and their subscriptions, but the game cannot exist on group content players alone.

Excellent points.

[Tisaren]

Removing designations from a server selection screen does not remove RP'ers and RP guilds from a server. With or without that label the Ebon Hawk is still very much a RP server, in spite of what the pro-merger crowd wants us to believe. In the character transfer screen and on Torstatus those designations are still present, btw. Edited September 13, 2017 by Tisaren

[Ylliarus]

The premise behind one or two mega servers seems to be:

 

1. There aren't enough people for PUG Ops/flashpoints/PvP on my server. Therefore, if I force other players from other servers to join me, I will have enough people to play with.

 

The problems with this premise:

 

1. There are many people on those servers who will not do PUG Ops/etc. regardless of where they are. They either play with friends or guildmates or they are solo players. So no, you won't have them to play with. If you're expecting some dramatic influx of PUG players from a merger serve, think again.

 

2. People who are truly invested in doing group content already have the option to move to a more populated server on their own. If they're on a dead server and complaining about it, they have an option that doesn't bother anyone else.

 

3. Solo/RPG players do feel alienated and harassed on certain servers. You might think it's fine to sacrifice them and their subscriptions, but the game cannot exist on group content players alone.

 

As much as I support megaservers and server merges, these are excellent points that I simply can't counter because they're bursting with sense and logic. Very well written!

 

Removing designations from a server selection screen does not remove RP'ers and RP guilds from a server. With or without that label the Ebon Hawk is still very much a RP server, in spite of what the pro-merger crowd wants us to believe. In the character transfer screen and on Torstatus those designations are still present, btw.

 

Very much true, while recruitment may be a problem for RP guilds on the Progenitor, the RP scene is still very much alive the last time I had a little sneak peak to see how things were doing. Saying that because the RP tag was removed there is no more RP there is bluntly said b.s. and I couldn't think of a statement that is more wrong. And this is coming from someone who supports the idea of server merges and megaservers.

Edited September 13, 2017 by Ylliarus

[IoNonSoEVero]

It's entirely probably that once you turn 17 servers into 2 or 3 that there will be more people available to do group content. Not everyone wants to sit in their stronghold trying on outfits.

 

Someone who's a guildie or has, say, 4 or 5 friends they always play with isn't "sitting in their stronghold trying on outfits." And whether they're on Harb or a dead server, they're still not going to be at the Fleet, itching to group with strangers. The fact that one can't get a PUG doesn't mean there aren't people doing group content.

[IoNonSoEVero]

As much as I support megaservers and server merges, these are excellent points that I simply can't counter because they're bursting with sense and logic. Very well written!

 

Thank you.

[DanNV]

The problems with this premise:

 

1. There are many people on those servers who will not do PUG Ops/etc. regardless of where they are. They either play with friends or guildmates or they are solo players. So no, you won't have them to play with. If you're expecting some dramatic influx of PUG players from a merger serve, think again.

 

2. People who are truly invested in doing group content already have the option to move to a more populated server on their own. If they're on a dead server and complaining about it, they have an option that doesn't bother anyone else.

 

3. Solo/RPG players do feel alienated and harassed on certain servers. You might think it's fine to sacrifice them and their subscriptions, but the game cannot exist on group content players alone.

 

1. There are many people who do try to pug or do group content as well and they can't (or can in only a limited way) in the current state of most of the servers.

 

2. If they have guild assets they don't have the option to move. So, they're stuck or they change games. Neither option is good for SWTOR.

 

3. This is a valid concern. The problem here sits squarely in BW's lap. They have let the game turn toxic in many locations and don't do a thing about it. They need 24 hour mods online, on each server to handle these kinds of issues.

 

I would submit that the entire population problem is a BW/EA problem. They are the ones who destroyed much of the game, came up with stories that don't even remotely feel like a SW story, changed things in the game the players told them upfront they'd quit over, ruined the ability to lay alts, closed all the F2P out of any sort of end game play which further reduced the queues and population, and the list goes on. They couldn't have done a better job driving people away from the game if they'd tried. Now we have the busiest server in the game spending most of it's time at light population and most of the rest of the servers look like ghost towns anywhere you go.

 

I understand the concerns with server mergers. But, they are going to have to happen unless EA intends to just shut everything down. BW has a lot of work to do in order to be sure the problems are addressed up front (not the usual "tweaking" for ages after the fact) and to be sure merges go smoothly. However, the fact is, it doesn't matter what I think about merges or what anyone else thinks about them, BW is going to have little choice. They can't have a game where most of their servers look dead to someone starting a new character or returning to the game after a long break. Those people aren't likely to go look at other servers, they';ll just drop the sub and move on.

[TUXs]

I vote for 3 servers. I RP on harbinger and EH and there really is no difference. All of this nonsense about RP being. griefed more on non RP servers is rubbish. I've actually been griefed far more on EH than Harb.

Maybe in the past there was more griefing. The only times I can remember were near launch and also during the gree events. But now we have so few people, that there aren't enough griefers even playing to cause an issue. I've not been griefed on Harb for over 12 months, but I've been griefed on EH a few times in the last year.

HA!!!! THANK YOU for stating this. I don't RP or know people in the RP community, but this has been my assumption forever.

 

Trolls are easy to spot and easy to ignore, no matter what server you're on. THANK YOU for sharing your experience.

[kodrac]

It's entirely probably that once you turn 17 servers into 2 or 3 that there will be more people available to do group content. Not everyone wants to sit in their stronghold trying on outfits.

 

It's this kind of dismissive attitude that does your cause a disservice.

[Jedi_riches]

 

2. If they have guild assets they don't have the option to move. So, they're stuck or they change games. Neither option is good for SWTOR.

 

They do have the option, but are choosing not to do so which is fine but then they wish bioware to force everyone together whether others want that or not.

[Andryah]

The premise behind one or two mega servers seems to be:

 

1. There aren't enough people for PUG Ops/flashpoints/PvP on my server. Therefore, if I force other players from other servers to join me, I will have enough people to play with.

 

The problems with this premise:

 

1. There are many people on those servers who will not do PUG Ops/etc. regardless of where they are. They either play with friends or guildmates or they are solo players. So no, you won't have them to play with. If you're expecting some dramatic influx of PUG players from a merger serve, think again.

 

2. People who are truly invested in doing group content already have the option to move to a more populated server on their own. If they're on a dead server and complaining about it, they have an option that doesn't bother anyone else.

 

3. Solo/RPG players do feel alienated and harassed on certain servers. You might think it's fine to sacrifice them and their subscriptions, but the game cannot exist on group content players alone.

 

Outstanding presentation of what is really going on here, and why it will not meet the demands being pressed by some here in this thread.

[Andryah]

It's this kind of dismissive attitude that does your cause a disservice.

 

Yep.

 

But I do not expect him to stop.

[Totemdancer]

Why are we discussing merging Harby and EH, I mean, aren't they the two largest servers? I don't see why they would need to be merged, if anything wouldn't it make more sense to merge the smaller servers. Or, if you really wanted to merge one of the two big guys, then merge the smaller servers into Harby, and leave EH alone as the sole RP server?

 

Or, you could even merge half the smaller servers with Harby, and the other half with EH. If EH were to merge with Harby, than naturally Harby would become a RP server, because correct me if I'm wrong but EH has always been an RP server, ever since the start.

 

Why is it that big of a deal that we "have" to have some mega server, as opposed to two servers? Then choice will still be there whilst not instancing RP.

 

Not only that, but they are on opposite sides of the country in seperate regions. Discussing merging them is pointless because that's not ever going to happen if they make regional servers.

[Andryah]

They do have the option, but are choosing not to do so which is fine but then they wish bioware to force everyone together whether others want that or not.

 

Yeah. Our guild moved, and we absorbed the expenses and logistics, which were well worth it to get off of Harbinger. Back before the great low cost transfer migrations set in from the PvP servers.... Harbinger was not that bad. Oh it was always a bit more toxic just due to size of the population, but nothing like what it became once it began receiving a lot of player transfers from the old PvP servers. I'm guessing that Harbinger received more misfits then rational and mature adults in the process, and while we at first thought it would settle down and sort itself out within the community... it did not.

 

DanNV is an incredibly unhappy player with this game, yet continues to subscribe to complain in the forum apparently. But his point was that guilds must be dismantled before transfer and then reformed after transfer and all costs incurred for guild assets rest with the guild. The studio does need to fix this issue such that guilds can move intact, and they have essentially acknowledged this.. but have provided no commitment on when/how. Nor have they provided any commitment on any sort of server consolidation either though.

 

That said.. the current state of the game DOES NOT prevent a guild from moving, it just makes it a logistical and economic challenge for the guild that chooses to do so. But for small, disaggregate, and/or disorganized guilds... it would probably be too heavy a push for them to do it. But this goes to a general issue with many guilds... they simply are not well organized guilds but rather a loose aggregate of players who are simply using the guild for what it can give them personally. And INB4 someone rolls through with.. "but my guild is dead... and I want to take it with me!!" nonsense..... if the guild is dead... it does not need to be moved/transferred... just take the remaining assets and move on.

Edited September 13, 2017 by Andryah

[kodrac]

I'm guessing that Harbinger received more misfits then rational and mature adults in the process, and while we at first thought it would settle down and sort itself out within the community... it did not.

 

Well, to be fair, rational and mature adults is not the first words that come to mind when describing online gaming.

[Andryah]

Well, to be fair, rational and mature adults is not the first words that come to mind when describing online gaming.

 

LOL.. point taken.. yet such adults do in fact exist in MMOs.. and most of them would like to avoid a server full of griefing misfits.

[TUXs]

Yeah. Our guild moved, and we absorbed the expenses and logistics, which were well worth it to get off of Harbinger. Back before the great low cost transfer migrations set in from the PvP servers.... Harbinger was not that bad. Oh it was always a bit more toxic just due to size of the population, but nothing like what it became once it began receiving a lot of player transfers from the old PvP servers. I'm guessing that Harbinger received more misfits then rational and mature adults in the process, and while we at first thought it would settle down and sort itself out within the community... it did not.

You take every opportunity you can to bash Harbinger...why? I've met nothing but great people on the server. I've never dropped from a group, I haven't added a single player to /ignore and the few trolls have been easy to spot and easy to ignore...why are our experiences so different??

[bdatt]

The premise behind one or two mega servers seems to be:

 

1. There aren't enough people for PUG Ops/flashpoints/PvP on my server. Therefore, if I force other players from other servers to join me, I will have enough people to play with.

 

The problems with this premise:

 

1. There are many people on those servers who will not do PUG Ops/etc. regardless of where they are. They either play with friends or guildmates or they are solo players. So no, you won't have them to play with. If you're expecting some dramatic influx of PUG players from a merger serve, think again.

 

2. People who are truly invested in doing group content already have the option to move to a more populated server on their own. If they're on a dead server and complaining about it, they have an option that doesn't bother anyone else.

 

3. Solo/RPG players do feel alienated and harassed on certain servers. You might think it's fine to sacrifice them and their subscriptions, but the game cannot exist on group content players alone.

 

The premise is that the game feels dead which is discouraging to current, returning, and new players that want to do group content.

[Jedi_riches]

Yeah. Our guild moved, and we absorbed the expenses and logistics, which were well worth it to get off of Harbinger. Back before the great low cost transfer migrations set in from the PvP servers.... Harbinger was not that bad. Oh it was always a bit more toxic just due to size of the population, but nothing like what it became once it began receiving a lot of player transfers from the old PvP servers. I'm guessing that Harbinger received more misfits then rational and mature adults in the process, and while we at first thought it would settle down and sort itself out within the community... it did not.

 

DanNV is an incredibly unhappy player with this game, yet continues to subscribe to complain in the forum apparently. But his point was that guilds must be dismantled before transfer and then reformed after transfer and all costs incurred for guild assets rest with the guild. The studio does need to fix this issue such that guilds can move intact, and they have essentially acknowledged this.. but have provided no commitment on when/how. Nor have they provided any commitment on any sort of server consolidation either though.

 

That said.. the current state of the game DOES NOT prevent a guild from moving, it just makes it a logistical and economic challenge for the guild that chooses to do so. But for small, disaggregate, and/or disorganized guilds... it would probably be too heavy a push for them to do it. But this goes to a general issue with many guilds... they simply are not well organized guilds but rather a loose aggregate of players who are simply using the guild for what it can give them personally. And INB4 someone rolls through with.. "but my guild is dead... and I want to take it with me!!" nonsense..... if the guild is dead... it does not need to be moved/transferred... just take the remaining assets and move on.

 

Oh I agree, biowares focus should be on ensuring the transfer of guild assets but NOT for the purpose of forced server merges as once servers are gone they are gone and players who don't wish to be a a megaserver have no place to move to.

[casirabit]

WOW!!!

I'm amazed and shocked that happened, especially on the rep side. I've not had that experience in a long time (over a year), even then it was just the occasional jerk who was trolling, not really griefing.

I'm always ready to help people and often jump to the opportunity to do so 😊. I've even spent time on Tython when I'm a higher lvl just so I can help.

There are actually a lot more Rp people on Harb than there used to be because the west coast Rp server is a ghost town. It's actually better than before and I find more people accepting it.

I do agree there are more jerks on the imp side, but they are mostly fleet trolls and can be ignored easily. They're the ones I'm mainly referring to when I say there are only a small number, but they are loud. They sit on the fleet waiting for pvp or FPs and they get bored. Even more so now because the wait time are longer. There is no excuse for their behaviour, but once you identify them and put them on ignore, the rest of the population is good. Most people put those idiots on ignore and the problem goes away.

But I still don't consider that greifing, trolling yes, griefing no. For me they would need to interrupting my Rp with people by jumping through our group, using emotes, stealing mobs, etc. trolls are trolls and can be ignored really easy with ignore.

Even pvp rage is a lot less than it used to be prior to 5.0. It's still there, but people rarely say anything if you do a bit of RP before the match starts. I used to have more problems with pve people and even Rp people in 3.0-4.0 when I used to try and help them out when they didn't understand the expertise-Bolster system and would wear epic pve gear instead. I actually love helping people in the game and go out of my way, but I used to get abused trying to help those Pve-Rp people with gearing. I was told so many times to mind my own business (can't say what they really said) and I was very polite and often use to PM them so others, so as to not embarrass them.

 

On the flip side, I've had people interrupt groups on EH and I've been told to shut up at the start of pvp matches because I did a little Rp. I've also seen jerks trolling on the imps side fleet. Trolls are everywhere and on every server, but they aren't essentially griefers because it's only chat and you can put them on ignore. Then they are basically talking to themselves.

 

Don't take this the wrong way, but I don't think you understand the difference between greifing and and chat/pm trolling.

 

Whether it is griefing or trolling it doesn't matter. The problem is Harbinger has a toxic reputation and if you have to deal with either behavior on a daily basis the game no longer is fun and most people will not do it and when you fill up your ignore list then you what do you do? You seemed to miss the point that I said I filled up my ignore list is a short time I was there or you just want to ignore it.

[casirabit]

Why are we discussing merging Harby and EH, I mean, aren't they the two largest servers? I don't see why they would need to be merged, if anything wouldn't it make more sense to merge the smaller servers. Or, if you really wanted to merge one of the two big guys, then merge the smaller servers into Harby, and leave EH alone as the sole RP server?

 

Or, you could even merge half the smaller servers with Harby, and the other half with EH. If EH were to merge with Harby, than naturally Harby would become a RP server, because correct me if I'm wrong but EH has always been an RP server, ever since the start.

 

Why is it that big of a deal that we "have" to have some mega server, as opposed to two servers? Then choice will still be there whilst not instancing RP.

 

Because some people would not be happy with that. They want one server and they don't see that if they merge EH with HB that a lot of people will quit and they still will not get what they want.

[casirabit]

You take every opportunity you can to bash Harbinger...why? I've met nothing but great people on the server. I've never dropped from a group, I haven't added a single player to /ignore and the few trolls have been easy to spot and easy to ignore...why are our experiences so different??

 

Her experiences are not different than the one I encountered when I checked out Harbinger and that is why I say force Ebon Hawk to merge with Harbinger, it will not have the result some people are expecting. BW can't afford (according to you all) to lose any more players but that is what will happen and then the ones that stay will not be using group pickups anyway as that is not what a lot of us do on Ebon Hawk. We group up with friends and guilds. That is the way Ebon Hawk operates so it will not change for those that decide to stay.

 

And that is sad that Harbinger is like that but then again some of the posters that have taken the opportunity to bash others because their playstyle is different seems to come from that server. No I am sure not all is like that and I doubt you are, from our conversations, but there is enough that most do not want anything to do with that server. It is unfortunate that has happened.

Edited September 13, 2017 by casirabit

[HuaRya]

Someone who's a guildie or has, say, 4 or 5 friends they always play with isn't "sitting in their stronghold trying on outfits." And whether they're on Harb or a dead server, they're still not going to be at the Fleet, itching to group with strangers. The fact that one can't get a PUG doesn't mean there aren't people doing group content.

 

Heh, heh. The "Friends" you speak of where once 'Strangers" you met when the MMO had a larger population. Kind of the whole point of playing an MMO and joining a guild and jumping on their VOIP. It's what an MMO is all about.

 

Since you are so tied to your 4 or 5 friends it's about 96% likely you'll quit SWTOR when they move onto another game and they almost always do. Successful MMO's ensure a large pool of people who want to play the game so that people can enjoy every bit of content the game has to offer.

[casirabit]

Someone who's a guildie or has, say, 4 or 5 friends they always play with isn't "sitting in their stronghold trying on outfits." And whether they're on Harb or a dead server, they're still not going to be at the Fleet, itching to group with strangers. The fact that one can't get a PUG doesn't mean there aren't people doing group content.

 

Ignore him. He constantly bashes the roleplay community. He thinks roleplayers just sit around and do nothing and if that is the case I like to know how I got my achievements and how I got two of my fourteen characters to 300 (before the daily bug). I am sure you don't get CXP for roleplaying or standing around doing nothing.

 

I have learned just to ignore anything he says even if he responds to one of my post. It is not worth the trouble talking to someone like him that constantly bashes roleplayers and has an opinion that roleplayers do nothing and thinks ERP is actual roleplaying.

Edited September 13, 2017 by casirabit

[Ratajack]

You take every opportunity you can to bash Harbinger...why? I've met nothing but great people on the server. I've never dropped from a group, I haven't added a single player to /ignore and the few trolls have been easy to spot and easy to ignore...why are our experiences so different??

 

You never fail to present Harbinger as a heavenly paradise. Why?

 

I've seen many more trolls and griefers than mature, respectful, friendly players on Harbinger. My ignore list is full, even though I do not have a single credit spammer on it, yet I see more and more trolls everyday.

 

Why are our experiences so different?

 

Is it possibly because one of us has a vested interest in seeing as many bodies (and therefore more potential LFG fodder) as possible move to the Harbinger cesspool?

 

 

Is it possibly because we have different definitions of "trolling" and "griefing"? Is it possibly because one of us accepts "trolling" and/or "griefing" as "normal, acceptable behavior"?

 

 

 

I consider any behavior that would not be acceptable in the "real world" to be "trolling" or "griefing". If a behavior is not acceptable in the "real world", then why should any reasonable person expect that that behavior would be acceptable "in game". It's a shame that I have to make certain to point out that "unacceptable behavior" obviously does not include game objectives, such as killing NPC's and other players in WZ's, etc. Unflrtunately, though, unless I make that distinction abundantly clear, trolls would come out of the woodwork to point out that killing is unacceptable in the "real world" but expected in game.