Break free of your conditioning - gearing, OPs, ...

[TheKilltech]

Can you list out some games that are not MMORPGs, and support cooperative PvE with 8 or more players?

 

This isn't intended as a snarky question, by the way. I'm genuinely curious if there's a bunch of games I've overlooked.

most action-RPGs would count for that criteria. Diablo series and Path of Exile being among those i can name instantly.

 

if not for the 8 players i would list the LoL and its family but yeah...

 

further away from the genre there are some shooter games though i admit that i don't know many with a 8+ coop mode because i haven't looked for such. anyway although just for 4 players i'd list Left4Dead regardless as it is just a great example of a PvE multiplayer experience. i think Team Fortress2 has a coop mode for more players. not sure about Warframe coop player limit. Armored Warfare has a PvE mode AFAIK.

 

there were actually also MMORPG/Shooter attempts like GlobalAgenda, Defiance or Firefall but those failed for various reasons (well, mostly for trying to be too much WoW). however, there are a few other games in development to fill the gap.

 

there's of a lot of these survival/craft/builder games appeared since minecraft and arma3 dayz mod. i can't name the titles but if its something you like you find plenty of interesting options there.

 

hmm, i guess you'd have to be more specific about the gameplay/genre you are looking for to be more concrete. there are soo many games out there that it's likely you find something for you.

 

but yeah, as for star wars games with 8+ PvE mode there isn't that many options to SWTOR, true

[RobertFKennedyUS]

Actually, based on what EA told investors, this stupid system is supposed to make more people sub and keep them paying those subs longer. I would say that there should be little argument that it has failed miserably on those counts.

 

Paying those subs longer = slowing you down

[Khevar]

most action-RPGs would count for that criteria. Diablo series and Path of Exile being among those i can name instantly.

Unfortunately, I find the Diablo gameplay unpleasant. I tried to get into it several times, and it just didn't stick. Later on, when Torchlight was released I tried that one as well, and it just didn't do it for me.

 

Based on screenshots and gameplay videos, Path of Exile is pretty much the same, no?

further away from the genre there are some shooter games though i admit that i don't know many with a 8+ coop mode because i haven't looked for such.

The only one I know about is Destiny. And you'll note that Destiny's version of large-group PvE has more in common with MMORPG "raiding" than any other medium.

anyway although just for 4 players i'd list Left4Dead regardless as it is just a great example of a PvE multiplayer experience.

Left4Dead and TF2 were fun when I played them. But I have to be feeling like playing shooters. And that's all about twitch-reflexes and aiming.

there's of a lot of these survival/craft/builder games appeared since minecraft and arma3 dayz mod.

I'm probably going to sound like a snob, but I'd rather watch paint dry than play minecraft (or a minecraft-like game).

hmm, i guess you'd have to be more specific about the gameplay/genre you are looking for to be more concrete. there are soo many games out there that it's likely you find something for you.

So here's the deal.

 

I'd never played an MMO before SWTOR (40 minutes of GW1 doesn't really count, in my book). I had no interest in SWG, despite being a Star Wars fan. I also had no interest in SWTOR, for that matter. At least, not at first. Then I read a review by Jerry Holkins that commented that there was more questing in a single class story than many single player RPGs he had played. And I'd seen other reviews that commented on how solo-friendly SWTOR was.

 

So I gave it a try. Intending ONLY to run the 8 class stories and stop playing.

 

And then I met some people. And we played flashpoints and operations together. And I discovered I liked it.

 

It's that simple.

 

Edit: And to speak to your original post, had Bioware tried to add a new type of content (as you described), I'd be happy to try it.

 

But the fact that you continue to look down your nose at people that LIKE flashpoints and operations really detracts from whatever point you want to make.

Edited December 28, 2016 by Khevar

[Radzkie]

So I gave it a try. Intending ONLY to run the 8 class stories and stop playing.

 

And then I met some people. And we played flashpoints and operations together. And I discovered I liked it.

 

It's that simple.

I hope I was one of those people. At least for a short time. I remember you were in my first guild. Then you were DWBI's daddy.

 

I still think you're cool and adult-y Khevar.

 

BTW Mauduin says hi and that he misses you

Edited December 28, 2016 by Radzkie

[Khevar]

I hope I was one of those people. At least for a short time. I remember you were in my first guild. Then you were DWBI's daddy.

 

I still think you're cool and adult-y Khevar.

 

BTW Mauduin says hi and that he misses you

Radzkie!!!!!!!!

 

Long time no see! Say Hi to Maud for me.

[DanNV]

Paying those subs longer = slowing you down

 

Exactly, and it has failed because many of us aren't paying those subs longer, we're taking our money elsewhere. It isn't keeping us playing and subbing longer. That makes it a failure and I expect EA investors will not be happy although it may take a quarter or two for them to catch on. In the mean time, anyone at BW with a clue will be looking for other games to get a spot on and leaving BW. Watch for that. It'll be the indication it's totally over.

[VirtualMorrigan]

I don't understand...as a casual player, how do you normally get your gear?

 

If you say hard content like flashpoints, ops, etc...then you are not part of my definition of a casual player.

 

 

A tactical flashpoint is hard content? A star fortress tactical is hard content? Really?

 

You used to get even a small amount of radiant crystals by doing FP weeklies and such. Not much, but over time it summed up. That is how I got gear. Slowly, but I knew what I was getting and when. I have never set a foot into an op because I simply am not good enough.

 

I am so very sorry that I do not fit your definition of casual, but really, that is what I am.

[Suzsi]

A tactical flashpoint is hard content? A star fortress tactical is hard content? Really?

 

You used to get even a small amount of radiant crystals by doing FP weeklies and such. Not much, but over time it summed up. That is how I got gear. Slowly, but I knew what I was getting and when. I have never set a foot into an op because I simply am not good enough.

 

I am so very sorry that I do not fit your definition of casual, but really, that is what I am.

 

You probably fit the definition of solo more than casual tbh..

At least that's what I am.

 

I play every day ( mostly - xmas has been busy ) with little breaks in between. I do story content and mostly solo content with the rare bit of grouping content when its 'forced' such as DvL to get the companion but I didn't go any further - I only did the tacticals I didn't go to legendary level and do the operations. RIght now I have been doing WZ's more often because its the best way to get CXP, I alternate between heroics solo and WZ for my CXP. Would rather add repeating story mode chapters to that list but currently at 240 CXP for 30+mins of work they really aren't worth doing . I am not a hardcore PVPer so I am sure I let the teams down even though I try.

 

Casual is more like someone who plays a couple of hours a week due to work and other commitments. Someone who plays regularly 3/4+ days a week but prefers solo content and story etc fits more in the solo category.

[stoopicus]

There is no truly hard story mode solo content until the Vaylin fight, and then only if you took the light side holocron choice. Unless you run without a companion or leave behind the flashpoint droid or something. Tactical FPs are more challenging.

 

Some fights have mechanics you need to figure out (Revan, Vaylin, Makeb bosses, etc) but hard? no, not until late in KotET.

[Shwarzchild]

There is no truly hard story mode solo content until the Vaylin fight, and then only if you took the light side holocron choice. Unless you run without a companion or leave behind the flashpoint droid or something. Tactical FPs are more challenging.

 

Some fights have mechanics you need to figure out (Revan, Vaylin, Makeb bosses, etc) but hard? no, not until late in KotET.

 

I keep seeing people mention the vaalyn encounters as difficult. Are they not paying attention to the reflect she has if you try to range her? I could see the kotfe vaalyn encounter to be harder than the kotet versions. Vaalyn in kotet even on veteran is swiss cheese if you're standing in melee range and interrupting casts like force blast and syphon. The only hard encounter in kotet that I found were the Genoharaden at the end of chapter 2. There were some other silly things that were annoying like the eternal walkers, or the party fight where you have to control arcann more than players probably realize they need to.

[ekwalizer]

The issue is the removal of an entire system, which has been in place since pretty close to the beginning. I doubt there would be an outcry over GCS if it had been incorporated as an additional route.

 

When you build a bypass or loop, you don't destroy the existing interstate.

[ivanhedgehog]

Making CXP legacy wide means that you get less overall crates to roll for set armorings, making the system's biggest problem of getting set gear for your alts even worse.

 

you never stop getting command levels/crates so that is not a problem

[ivanhedgehog]

100% agree. 4.0 was waaay too easy. But BW seems to think it's either all the way to the left or all the way to the right.

 

This is true but the GC fiasco is hiding the bigger problem. If BW doesnt come out with some serious content(as in a lot of it) some time mid spring to early summer, they will likely have a catastrophic sub loss. There has to be something not 3+ years old to do. uprisings 1.5 will not suffice.

[Eli_Porter]

you never stop getting command levels/crates so that is not a problem

 

The problem is that crates at 300 take way longer to get than crates at lower levels, so you get less overall crates meaning that you get less chances to roll for set gear.

[Tsillah]

So now define for me which is the better? The one that finds fun and amusement doing it one way, or the one that finds fun and challenge doing it the other way?

 

You know, your entire post was on point, but this part is the heart of it all in these discussions. Sure, there are people who are fine with RNG gearing and those who aren't. But a lot of the defenders or white knights if you want to call em that, have one thing in common: in their minds they cannot accept that others may like something else and so they need to put up or shut up.

 

MMOs need to appeal to a broader audience to keep a broader audience. Now I suppose that a lot of players in SWTOR are here simply because it's Star Wars and not because it's an MMO.

 

But what will happen if next year there's a new Star Wars game (and we know new SW games are coming), that's perhaps an RPG and it's a good game? I know I'm waiting on ME:Andromeda but I'm also eagerly looking forward to those new SW games that are being made as we speak.

[RobertFKennedyUS]

Exactly, and it has failed because many of us aren't paying those subs longer, we're taking our money elsewhere. It isn't keeping us playing and subbing longer. That makes it a failure and I expect EA investors will not be happy although it may take a quarter or two for them to catch on. In the mean time, anyone at BW with a clue will be looking for other games to get a spot on and leaving BW. Watch for that. It'll be the indication it's totally over.

 

You're certainly entitled to believe that but you made it sound like you were actually correcting something I was saying and you didn't. A lot of what you're saying is basically agreement with my earlier comments.

[LordArtemis]

A tactical flashpoint is hard content? A star fortress tactical is hard content? Really?

 

You used to get even a small amount of radiant crystals by doing FP weeklies and such. Not much, but over time it summed up. That is how I got gear. Slowly, but I knew what I was getting and when. I have never set a foot into an op because I simply am not good enough.

 

I am so very sorry that I do not fit your definition of casual, but really, that is what I am.

 

...and I am equally sorry that you felt the need to apologize...considering that is a silly notion.

 

Simply because you do not fit my definition does not mean you do not qualify...it simply meant you did not qualify within MY POST.

 

It was an explanation of my posts meaning...not a dismissal of your self identification. The qualification sits within the context of the post, nothing more.

You may be surprised to learn that not every comment is a personal attack on your self image...

Edited December 28, 2016 by LordArtemis

[Halinalle]

There is no truly hard story mode solo content until the Vaylin fight, and then only if you took the light side holocron choice.

 

I've done that fight twice on my guardian and I still fail to see where's the difficult part.

 

Unless you insist on staying outside of circle then... well... L2P?

 

Tactical FPs are more challenging.

 

Yes, if by "challenging" you mean trying to stay awake.

 

(And yet some players keep saying that I should learn to play.)

Edited December 28, 2016 by Halinalle

[Tsillah]

Yes, if by "challenging" you mean trying to stay awake.

 

That really depends on the tactical. Some are dead boring as you suggest, but then it makes sense for story mode. Other however have been rather poorly balanced towards teams of 4 DPS in particular. Actually some of them are easier to do with companions than other players because companions can cheese certain effects.

 

Also mechanics get broken in 4 DPS groups because the boss is losing health faster than it can trigger the next mechanics and thereby making the fights sometimes impossible to beat. Som even have mechanics that most pugs will have a hard time dealing with, which makes you wonder why they exist in tactical mode.

 

BWA just really needs to make a decision on what's what, but that would require a greater effort on their part.

[Halinalle]

Actually some of them are easier to do with companions than other players because companions can cheese certain effects.

 

That is true. For example Travik's orbital strikes and Goh's purple circles. My companion just gets ignored. HK-51 deserves some love too!

Definitely would've made my Assault on Tython run yesterday far more interesting.

Edited December 28, 2016 by Halinalle

[Tsillah]

That is true. For example Travik's orbital strikes and Goh's purple circles. My companion just gets ignored. HK-51 deserves some love too!

Definitely would've made my Assault on Tython run yesterday far more interesting.

 

Yeah, I mean nothing's perfect but it gets rather silly. It even got to the point where people would start a pug group with 2-3 guildies, then get some random people in and as soon as they enter they kick the randoms and bring out their companions because it's better that way.

 

Hardly the kind of behaviour you'd want to encourage I would think.

[Transcendent]

MMOs need to appeal to a broader audience to keep a broader audience. Now I suppose that a lot of players in SWTOR are here simply because it's Star Wars and not because it's an MMO.

 

But what will happen if next year there's a new Star Wars game (and we know new SW games are coming), that's perhaps an RPG and it's a good game? I know I'm waiting on ME:Andromeda but I'm also eagerly looking forward to those new SW games that are being made as we speak.

 

This is the appeal of an MMO, it caters to a multitude of different players and playstyles, add Star Wars on top of that as one of the pulls of the game and it should be successful. At least, as long as the developers realise this and cater to the broadest mix possible without discriminating against any one set of players or playstyles.

 

It's something I think BioWare have forgotten in their zest to change things to suit their metrics.

 

With regards to the last part of your post, I would imagine it'll pull players away from this game even if short term, how that'll have an effect on this games population or development budget remains to be seen. I'm not waiting on ME:A, I'm making the break pretty much now from SWTOR, most likely on a permanent basis. I've got a massive backlog of games on Steam / Origin / Uplay to go through and that'll keep me entertained irrespective of them being Star Wars or not.

 

I may have a look at the changes coming in Jan 2017, but I think my tolerance for BioWare Austin has pretty much got to the stage I got to with Infinity Ward way back when, and I've never touched a game from that developer since. So on that note, bon chance mon ami, I wish you all well.

[Halinalle]

Yeah, I mean nothing's perfect but it gets rather silly. It even got to the point where people would start a pug group with 2-3 guildies, then get some random people in and as soon as they enter they kick the randoms and bring out their companions because it's better that way.

 

Hardly the kind of behaviour you'd want to encourage I would think.

 

That's really annoying and I'm already getting sick of it, tbh.

Someone goes AFK for few minutes or DC's -> gets kicked and group leader refuses to requeue "because companion healer is better". I usually refuse to kick player if there's even a small chance they will reconnect or show any type of activity. I rather take level 15 sentinel and carry them through the FP than let someone use their companion for "easy mode". If I'm group leader they don't have any other choice. Well, they can always leave...

There's always a chance that replacement is actually really good player.

Edited December 28, 2016 by Halinalle

[Tsillah]

This is the appeal of an MMO, it caters to a multitude of different players and playstyles, add Star Wars on top of that as one of the pulls of the game and it should be successful. At least, as long as the developers realise this and cater to the broadest mix possible without discriminating against any one set of players or playstyles.

 

It's something I think BioWare have forgotten in their zest to change things to suit their metrics.

 

With regards to the last part of your post, I would imagine it'll pull players away from this game even if short term, how that'll have an effect on this games population or development budget remains to be seen. I'm not waiting on ME:A, I'm making the break pretty much now from SWTOR, most likely on a permanent basis. I've got a massive backlog of games on Steam / Origin / Uplay to go through and that'll keep me entertained irrespective of them being Star Wars or not.

 

I may have a look at the changes coming in Jan 2017, but I think my tolerance for BioWare Austin has pretty much got to the stage I got to with Infinity Ward way back when, and I've never touched a game from that developer since. So on that note, bon chance mon ami, I wish you all well.

 

I think we are in a very similar situation and mindset. January will be interesting, but I fear that BWA will be on the too-little-too-late boat rather than the wow-that's-awesome boat, if you know what I mean. I'd love to be proven wrong on that but I'm just not expecting it.

[Jamtas]

I think we are in a very similar situation and mindset. January will be interesting, but I fear that BWA will be on the too-little-too-late boat rather than the wow-that's-awesome boat, if you know what I mean. I'd love to be proven wrong on that but I'm just not expecting it.

 

Same boat. I want to hear a complete change of direction and mea culpa but what I expect to hear is along the lines of:

 

"We totally hear you, but you have to understand your words don't mean what you want. We refuse to admit a mistake so we will say we are monitoring and will make changes slowly because of course we want to get our new system right for you. You(r money) are important to us. We make this game for YOU(r money). You've been saying you want new operations and flashpoints. Coming in July we will have 8 man uprisings! "

Edited December 28, 2016 by Jamtas