Break free of your conditioning - gearing, OPs, ...

[DanNV]

It might not be wise to have CXP level be legacy-wide. A major reason that GC exists is to slow down players from burning through old content too quickly.

 

Actually, based on what EA told investors, this stupid system is supposed to make more people sub and keep them paying those subs longer. I would say that there should be little argument that it has failed miserably on those counts.

[curulz]

No, they don't.

 

Some of them are not itemized as well as the 220/224 token pieces were. So depending on your gear going into 5.0, the 228s may be an upgrade but they may not be an upgrade.

[Transcendent]

It might not be wise to have CXP level be legacy-wide. A major reason that GC exists is to slow down players from burning through old content too quickly.

 

GC is a means towards an end. So what is the necessary end for BW? To incentivize you to play content more often than you do, and allow some of your characters to be really well geared so they can play at their full potential. It's no good if people burn through the levels in 3-6 months and then really start to slack off for the remaining 6 months of the cycle.

 

That may work well for someone with one or two characters. I've got three characters at 70 (my Mercs so they can share the gear grind to an extent and to at least try GCC gearing before commenting on it), and 21 alts at level 65+ to level and gear up.

 

Now imagine how long that will take to get all of those to CR300? With the way it works now and with the pathetic CXP sources available right now in the game after the nerfs? It simply isn't going to happen. So now I'm at the stage where either BioWare fix the CXP sources and amounts, fix the GC Rank system, fix the GCC gearing to be workable and to include alternate pathing (which as a PvP player they technically are, but we've yet to see how that'll work out), or quite simply I'll not bother.

 

I'm not paying for the game as it currently stands. So BioWare can either resolve the system they were already given feedback on prior to it going live, or I can simply play something else. I have no issue with that, but I'm certainly not going to keep providing the feedback for them to ignore it, nor am I prepared to pay them while they fix the mess they deliberately introduced even after the feedback provided.

 

It really is quite simple and BioWare should have worked out the kinks in this system prior to going live. Lack of polish, I'm not sure even with some this system will shine.

[Eli_Porter]

Now imagine how long that will take to get all of those to CR300? With the way it works now and with the pathetic CXP sources available right now in the game after the nerfs? It simply isn't going to happen.

 

You don't need to reach CR300 on all your alts, you just need to reach gear levels sufficient for HM/NiM content. This can be done with six 230 set armorings and crafted 240 on everything else (mods/enhs/implants/7th armoring/etc).

[Sargrith]

You don't need to reach CR300 on all your alts, you just need to reach gear levels sufficient for HM/NiM content. This can be done with six 230 set armorings and crafted 240 on everything else (mods/enhs/implants/7th armoring/etc).

 

Maybe what they could do is allow say at the top teir 230 recipes for armorings that work as set pieces. Would help alts out and allow you to fill in gaps. Still doesn't change the terrible random gearing as the main gearing but it would help alts.

[RswanBing]

You don't need to reach CR300 on all your alts, you just need to reach gear levels sufficient for HM/NiM content. This can be done with six 230 set armorings and crafted 240 on everything else (mods/enhs/implants/7th armoring/etc).

 

I agree it's not necessary to get CR300 on every characters. But this game has always been alt-friendly, it has always been possible to get max-gear if people want, during the DvL event, they push everyone to create new alts. And just after that, this new system changes everything.

 

I don't even think to gear all my alts, since 5.0 I haven't play at all with my imps, only my main rep and a few crafts alts. This litteraly killed the way I played (used to play many alts at the time, rep and imp), the time it would take is just ridiculous. So I know, the way I play is my problem, and I would deal with it if this new system was better than the old one, but it's not.

It doesn't bring anything new, doesn"t make anything better for people and for the unlucky ones it's clearly worse than before. It just makes things longer, and the only real reason is greedyness. They offer less and less content on every part of the game, even story, and want people to spend even more time as a sub.

 

There is absolutely nothing in this new system that is made for the players, or to make things better for them. While a lot of things should be done in this game, while a lot of bugs are here for years, while they completely let down the raiders... (this could go on for a long time so I will stop here), they prefer to ignore the community and give us something no one asked for, while there is lots of suggestions in this forum, and some are really realistic.

 

I don't see any reason to support a game who's only objective is money. All game companies 1st objective is making money sure, but most of them know that they have to make a great game that players actually enjoy and invest a minimum in it to go on. But in this game, they seem to forgot that, they do less and less, listen only themselves, and just try to grab more and more money. I really don't see any hope for this game in that direction.

Edited December 27, 2016 by RswanBing

[RobertFKennedyUS]

That may work well for someone with one or two characters. I've got three characters at 70 (my Mercs so they can share the gear grind to an extent and to at least try GCC gearing before commenting on it), and 21 alts at level 65+ to level and gear up.

 

Now imagine how long that will take to get all of those to CR300? With the way it works now and with the pathetic CXP sources available right now in the game after the nerfs? It simply isn't going to happen.

 

I know, that's why I said that the end is to allow someone to level up just a few alts to their full potential. GC is a means to an end, and the end is to get people playing the content again, and grinding on it. If you don't get to get all your alts to their maximum potential but you do get enough of the ones that you'll actually be using a significant amount, maybe that's acceptable losses. Do you really need 21 alts in NiM gear? Of course not.

 

Any solution is going to be less than perfect, but GC is a one-size fits all solution. Almost by definition it is guaranteed to be a suboptimal solution for each individual.

 

So now I'm at the stage where either BioWare fix the CXP sources and amounts, fix the GC Rank system, fix the GCC gearing to be workable and to include alternate pathing (which as a PvP player they technically are, but we've yet to see how that'll work out), or quite simply I'll not bother.

 

I'm not paying for the game as it currently stands. So BioWare can either resolve the system they were already given feedback on prior to it going live, or I can simply play something else. I have no issue with that, but I'm certainly not going to keep providing the feedback for them to ignore it, nor am I prepared to pay them while they fix the mess they deliberately introduced even after the feedback provided.

 

It really is quite simple and BioWare should have worked out the kinks in this system prior to going live. Lack of polish, I'm not sure even with some this system will shine.

 

Well you can do whatever you want, I didn't ask. I'm talking about situation more objectively.

[DarthSpuds]

I think it provides quite a bit for a casual player.

 

Then I suggest you are not a casual player.

 

I am, and I refuse to engage with the CXP/RNG fiasco - if this is the best Bioware can offer casuals, or raider then all they are doing is insulting us.

 

All The Best

[psandak]

The brutal irony of his OP is that he is trying to shame people for doing repetitive content for rewards, while completely ignoring the fact that that is the only way to be rewarded. I don't think he grasps the concept of stale content.

 

I guess if I were new to the game there would be tons of fun things to do and see. But at this point there just isn't for a long term player.

 

But grinding is not the ONLY way to be rewarded. The OP's point is that instead of trying to find the next best grind activity (before it gets nerfed), players should be participating in aspects of the game they enjoy. Can ANYONE actually say with a straight face that they in fact enjoyed clearing KP trash over and over? If I had to guess, the only "enjoyable" aspect of doing that was getting boxes quickly. Other than that, everyone I know dreaded it. Guildmates called it "KP Hell" and many were in fact glad it got nerfed so they no longer "had to do it."

 

Personally, I refuse to "grind" anymore. I will play the game with the characters I want to play in the activities I want to participate in. I would rather do what I feel I will enjoy and be "sub-optimal" in my CXP to time ratio, than burn out on KP trash, or the Fractured Uprising, or the trash between Annihilator and Gharj in EV, or whatever.

 

That is what the OP is advocating.

 

That being said, being a progression raider this new system is not conducive to continued progression raiding. Someone in this thread said that all we want is easy gearing. That cannot be further from the truth. What we - progression raiders - want is consistent gearing; we want to know that what we are doing provides a steady path to progression and RNG gearing does not do that. I am hopeful that the upcoming changes will provide more steady gearing.

[Andryah]

That being said, being a progression raider this new system is not conducive to continued progression raiding.

 

What progression raiding? Progression raiding was pretty well dropped from this game more then two years ago. You know.. when they flat out said no more new NiM OPs ever. And in fact there have been no new OPs in the last two expacs.. period.

 

Someone in this thread said that all we want is easy gearing. That cannot be further from the truth. What we - progression raiders - want is consistent gearing; we want to know that what we are doing provides a steady path to progression and RNG gearing does not do that. I am hopeful that the upcoming changes will provide more steady gearing.

 

I think it is pretty clear that many people indeed want the old easy gearing game of 4.0 back.. and they want it back now. They want to not only gear their mains with raid drops.. they want to gear all their alts as well.. and they want it done easy, and without much time and effort. [Which is not in any way to say that GC as currently deployed is working... it's not. But we also are not going to see a return to the rich feeding trough of 4.0 either.]

 

The ability to predict/calculate effort to result is an important element in end game MMO for sure..... but so is random chance to some degree (not as GC stands right now though). People are used to competing in random chance with fellow group mates, and guilds can skew chance to benefit under-geared members, but chance has always been a factor in end game gearing.

Edited December 27, 2016 by Andryah

[Khevar]

I think it is pretty clear that many people indeed want the old easy gearing game of 4.0 back.. and they want it back now.

Really? Here's what I believe:

 

1. Many people complaining about RNG would be happy with the 3.0 gearing. Or 2.0 gearing. Or even 1.3-1.7 gearing.

2. Many people complaining about RNG would be happy with GC sitting ON TOP OF existing systems.

3. Many people complaining about RNG would be happier if GC ranks were legacy wide.

 

SWTOR, throughout it's history (starting with patch 1.2) has been modifying it's gameplay to REDUCE the feeling of "grind". To make things more accessible. To make people feel like their time investment is resulting in a noticeable improvement of their characters. To reduce the impact of poor RNG.

 

It is, in my personal opinion, one of the main things that has made gameplay in SWTOR better than gameplay in other, more grindy games (e.g. The Division, etc), resulting in a wider appeal. The more an MMO obfuscates a grind by making it not FEEL like a grind, the better players react.

 

What we have here, is a 180 degree change from the direction the game has taken since the early days.

Edited December 27, 2016 by Khevar

[Jamtas]

Really? Here's what I believe:

 

1. Many people complaining about RNG would be happy with the 3.0 gearing. Or 2.0 gearing. Or even 1.3-1.7 gearing.

2. Many people complaining about RNG would be happy with GC sitting ON TOP OF existing systems.

3. Many people complaining about RNG would be happier if GC ranks were legacy wide.

 

100% agree. 4.0 was waaay too easy. But BW seems to think it's either all the way to the left or all the way to the right.

[Tsillah]

100% agree. 4.0 was waaay too easy. But BW seems to think it's either all the way to the left or all the way to the right.

 

That's the problem really. It's just too extreme. I've said various times that particularly the priority operation system was too much in 4.0 That was also an extreme, but not a prohibiting one. That's different now.

 

But what GC does is make the game easier to manage for BWA. It's not for the players, it's for themselves. Of course it already backfired and they're bringing tokens back into the game.

 

There are so many other things they could've done that wouldn't have been quite so extreme, but then BWA doesn't really do anything unless they can push it too far.

Edited December 27, 2016 by Tsillah

[TheKilltech]

it's interesting how the vast majority of the things discussed here is gearing as if there was nothing else... oh wait there is nothing else. call me a white knight all you want but i find that for anyone not overly interesting in grinding for it's own sake the game has no entertainment value to offer at end-game level (well, okay there is PvP but even that isn't good in comparison to games like e.g. LoL - otherwise there would be more people playing it).

 

my problem is that raiders are far from being the majority of the players i see in game yet their mindset dictates and enforces everyone else to follow their needs: grinding top gear. if that is supposed to be the very only "fun" aspect of end-game everyone must realize that this cannot be a sustainable concept - looking at how far other MMOs have evolved.

 

FPs and OPs need to be fun for a wider audience out of their own first - meaning that even if there were no rewards at all most players should be able to enjoy them (doesn't mean i want to remove rewards ofc). but as it stands they are not because they play identically every single time! that's plain boring!! seriously, replaying old content is no where so dull and repetitive as in MMORPGs. nowadays there are so many great games that show how to keep old content fresh and interesting through various ideas. but all MMORPGs instead prefer to lead the bottom of the list instead.

Edited December 27, 2016 by TheKilltech

[Tsillah]

it's interesting how the vast majority of the things discussed here is gearing as if there was nothing else... oh wait there is nothing else. call me a white knight all you want but i find that for anyone not overly interesting in grinding for it's own sake the game has no entertainment value to offer at end-game level (well, okay there is PvP but even that isn't good in comparison to games like e.g. LoL - otherwise there would be more people playing it).

 

my problem is that raiders are far from being the majority of the players i see in game yet their mindset dictates and enforces everyone else to follow their needs: grinding top gear. if that is supposed to be the very only "fun" aspect of end-game everyone must realize that this cannot be a sustainable concept - looking at how far other MMOs have evolved.

 

FPs and OPs need to be fun for a wider audience out of their own first - meaning that even if there were no rewards at all most players should be able to enjoy them (doesn't mean i want to remove rewards ofc). but as it stands they are not because they play identically every single time! that's plain boring!! seriously, replaying old content is no where so dull and repetitive as in MMORPGs. nowadays there are so many great games that show how to keep old content fresh and interesting through various ideas.

 

I guess you haven't read very well then.

[Khevar]

FPs and OPs need to be fun for a wider audience out of their own first - meaning that even if there were no rewards at all most players should be able to enjoy them (doesn't mean i want to remove rewards ofc). but as it stands they are not because they play identically every single time! that's plain boring!! seriously, replaying old content is no where so dull and repetitive as in MMORPGs. nowadays there are so many great games that show how to keep old content fresh and interesting through various ideas. but all MMORPGs instead prefer to lead the bottom of the list instead.

BIOWARE is the one supplying the content. WE'RE the one's consuming the content.

 

You want different group gameplay modes besides ops and flashpoints? The suggestion box is right over here.

 

I personally would be happy to try a variety of gameplay options. I'm not married to the current paradigm of scripted fights. But do you want to know why I play them?

 

It's simply because I like playing with others, and this is all we got.

Edited December 27, 2016 by Khevar

[Jamtas]

FPs and OPs need to be fun for a wider audience out of their own first - meaning that even if there were no rewards at all most players should be able to enjoy them (doesn't mean i want to remove rewards ofc). but as it stands they are not because they play identically every single time! that's plain boring!! seriously, replaying old content is no where so dull and repetitive as in MMORPGs. nowadays there are so many great games that show how to keep old content fresh and interesting through various ideas. but all MMORPGs instead prefer to lead the bottom of the list instead.

 

Lack of content is 100% BWs fault. Otherwise, I must have missed the post where we players demanded that they produce little to no replayable group content for 2+ years and instead focus all of their development efforts in making 26 story chapters (16 KOTFE, 9 KOTET & bonus HK Chapter for those that qualified) that can be finished over a few days for a subscription based game where replayable content is what keep people subscribing - instead of buying just a single month to consume everything in game and not paying again until the next "expansion" drops.

Edited December 27, 2016 by Jamtas

[TheKilltech]

Lack of content is 100% BWs fault.

there is no lack of content. we have more then enough. however, that content lacks a lot of replay value and that needs to be addressed. and no, whatever changes to the gearing system won't fix it!

 

level sync is a small beginning but at least is allows to play most of the old content. but a lot more needs to be done.

 

and it isn't entirely BWs fault as the entire MMORPG genre isn't any better.

 

and as for story chapers: well, at least this is something that makes it worth playing SWTOR at all. i wouldn't dared to consider subbing if not for that.

Edited December 27, 2016 by TheKilltech

[LordArtemis]

And what precisely does it provide to the casual player?

 

I probably do count as a casual at the moment, and I, personally, am no longer motivated to do anything that has to do with GC. I have three toons at GC level 8 each. The "a crate an hour" prediction is just a lie; I don't PVP because I hate it, in those oh-so-innovative Uprisings, my framerate goes to hell even if it's fine in FPS and similar, and my "normal" gameplay nets me so little GCXP that frankly I don't even need to bother. No. This system has nothing for a casual player, save the illusion that somehow some day the best gear might be obtainable. For me, that is not enough.

 

I don't understand...as a casual player, how do you normally get your gear?

 

If you say hard content like flashpoints, ops, etc...then you are not part of my definition of a casual player.

 

The casual player I am speaking of does not care about gear as the primary drive. So GC actually provides a path to gear that did not exist before.

 

If you say, however, that you liked the crystal/commendation system I actually agree....I liked that system. I like this system too. I liked that the prior system allowed you buy what you wanted, this system gives you candy from time to time.

 

As before, i can still get top end gear from crafting (a few levels below top tier) and NOW i also have a shot at top tier gear as well...before I did not, since I did not run flashpoints or ops, pvp, or any hardcore content.

 

I made some suggestions on how they should further tweak the system. But for now I am satisfied with it.

 

Then I suggest you are not a casual player.

 

I am, and I refuse to engage with the CXP/RNG fiasco - if this is the best Bioware can offer casuals, or raider then all they are doing is insulting us.

 

All The Best

 

Raiders are not casuals based on the kind of player I am speaking of. Raiders are hardcore players...ANY PLAYER that participates in hard content is a hardcore player.

 

A casual player almost never raids or engages in PVP, and rarely even groups for content. They usually play solo and get their gear either by drops or crafting.

 

So yes...I am a casual player...and I expect it is likely you are not if you raid.

Edited December 27, 2016 by LordArtemis

[eriksarcasm]

I don't understand...as a casual player, how do you normally get your gear?

 

If you say hard content like flashpoints, ops, etc...then you are not part of my definition of a casual player.

 

The casual player I am speaking of does not care about gear as the primary drive. So GC actually provides a path to gear that did not exist before.

 

If you say, however, that you liked the crystal/commendation system I actually agree....I liked that system. I like this system too. I liked that the prior system allowed you buy what you wanted, this system gives you candy from time to time.

 

As before, i can still get top end gear from crafting (a few levels below top tier) and NOW i also have a shot at top tier gear as well...before I did not, since I did not run flashpoints or ops, pvp, or any hardcore content.

 

I made some suggestions on how they should further tweak the system. But for now I am satisfied with it.

 

 

 

Raiders are not casuals based on the kind of player I am speaking of. Raiders are hardcore players...ANY PLAYER that participates in hard content is a hardcore player.

 

A casual player almost never raids or engages in PVP, and rarely even groups for content. They usually play solo and get their gear either by drops or crafting.

 

So yes...I am a casual player...and I expect it is likely you are not if you raid.

 

There is a middle ground, what I call "hard casual", which is what I consider myself. I don't do MUCH PvP, FP's or GSF, I do SOME. I did an operation once. I'm not unwilling to do group stuff, it's just not my favorite. I play for the love of the game, nothing more.

 

But it's relative. An argument can be made that anyone who subs is above a certain value of casual. That said, I too much preferred the commendaton system, even if GC gives me a chance at the best gear. And under the current system, I only feel satisfied finishing a flashpoint if it causes my GC level to tick up, because then I feel like I'm being rewarded. When it's not enough GXP gained to raise my level, it feels like work.

[TheKilltech]

I personally would be happy to try a variety of gameplay options. I'm not married to the current paradigm of scripted fights. But do you want to know why I play them?

 

It's simply because I like playing with others, and this is all we got.

sure, but i wonder, of all the MMOs out there why in heavens name would you pick a MMORPG to play with others? in the last few years a great many new games and concepts have appeared with focus on all possible aspects of multiplayer and all so much better made then this outdated stuff.

 

what kind of multiplayer gameplay are you looking for that other games just don't do better?

[Transcendent]

there is no lack of content. we have more then enough. however, that content lacks a lot of replay value and that needs to be addressed. and no, whatever changes to the gearing system won't fix it!

 

level sync is a small beginning but at least is allows to play most of the old content. but a lot more needs to be done.

 

I find it amusing when people say level sync makes content more replayable. Not for players like me who enjoyed going into operations on harder modes while over-levelled purely to have fun and muck around seeing what is / isn't possible with an extra 5 levels of progression. Now? I don't touch operations. Why? Level sync.

 

Funny how that works isn't it. Level sync works for some and not for others. So now define for me which is the better? The one that finds fun and amusement doing it one way, or the one that finds fun and challenge doing it the other way?

 

Hmmmm. Both are perhaps? Guess what, BioWare didn't cater to all players when they included level sync, which is why as a game system in an MMO it lacks polish and finesse. It was a way of making players replay content as BioWare saw fit and not as all of their players wanted to experience that content.

 

This is no different to the new RNG gearing system, BioWare didn't cater to all players when they created RNG gearing, which is why as a game system in an MMO it lacks polish and finesse. It is a way of making players participate in various content of BioWare's decision to boost participation which will skew metrics to suit them, while forcing players to remain subscribed to even participate in that system.

 

I guess the one thing to take away from 4.0 and 5.0, is that BioWare Austin really don't have players best interests at heart.

[Jamtas]

there is no lack of content. we have more then enough. however, that content lacks a lot of replay value and that needs to be addressed. and no, whatever changes to the gearing system won't fix it!

 

level sync is a small beginning but at least is allows to play most of the old content. but a lot more needs to be done.

 

and it isn't entirely BWs fault as the entire MMORPG genre isn't any better.

 

and as for story chapers: well, at least this is something that makes it worth playing SWTOR at all. i wouldn't dared to consider subbing if not for that.

 

I'll make an edit: Lack of NEW content.

 

The content created needs to be the sort to carry until the next expansion to give people a reason to stay subscribed. If all they are going to give moving forward in this game is new reasons to play the same content it will not last very much longer. They will churn through current players faster than they find new players to replace them.

[Khevar]

sure, but i wonder, of all the MMOs out there why in heavens name would you pick a MMORPG to play with others? in the last few years a great many new games and concepts have appeared with focus on all possible aspects of multiplayer and all so much better made then this outdated stuff.

Can you list out some games that are not MMORPGs, and support cooperative PvE with 8 or more players?

 

This isn't intended as a snarky question, by the way. I'm genuinely curious if there's a bunch of games I've overlooked.

Edited December 27, 2016 by Khevar

[Jamtas]

sure, but i wonder, of all the MMOs out there why in heavens name would you pick a MMORPG to play with others? in the last few years a great many new games and concepts have appeared with focus on all possible aspects of multiplayer and all so much better made then this outdated stuff.

 

what kind of multiplayer gameplay are you looking for that other games just don't do better?

 

As you can see in a thread in the off topic forum, this game is also unique in being Star Wars, and a large reason that many are here and why many have stayed in this MMO over others regardless of it's shortcomings.

 

If this game wasn't SW, then you'd have a point. Plenty of other MMOs do it better. But none of them are in the Star Wars universe.