Break free of your conditioning - gearing, OPs, ...

[Hebruixe]

Oh great another one of these threads.

 

Does no one on the defence side realise that getting higher level gear, to do higher level ops with your guild is the best experience in this game? Doing easy content with a small team is repetitive and stale, even the first time (fps, uprisings). Doing harder ops is fun as the completetion itself is very rewarding. Times that bydoing it with a large group of friends/guildes...and it is easy to understand.

 

Utterly subjective. Not everyone has the same experience as you.

[Darkchip]

normally i'm not much annoyed by the typical forum whining (with their usual doom & gloop + "i quit" extortion attempts) that comes with every change in every game that has a forum. yeah, that's the nature of forums.

 

but with 5.0 gearing change i see some old veterans clinging to a (computer-) stone age gameplay system that prevents the game from evolving. and that clinging to a past long gone is eventually bad for everyone.

 

seriously, why do players focus so much on grinding gear as their main activity? don't they know that playing games can actually be fun out of itself? how can repeating/grinding through content that plays the same every single time just to get stats so one can play the next higher 'difficulty' which is mostly the very same gameplay with increased mob stats to undo the gear progression previously made be considered... fun? how much conditioning have MMORPGs inflicted onto these player that they cannot break free from it? that (skinner box) system may have worked for the very first online games where technical and financial limitations didn't allow for much more. but today?

 

and what's all the fuzz about having no new OPS if all they they are is just upsacled FPs. i mean just scale down mob stats appropriately and you could play them with 4 players as FPs. the gameplay would stay nearly the same with the biggest change being a better FPS rate. the number of player just doesn't feel meaningful in any way. but worst of all their replay value is next to null once you figured out the mechanics (or googled it to begin with to save yourself being kicked by a vet).

 

maybe it's because i am from a different generation of gamers that didn't play these first online games and i got too used to the pure entertainment value of the raw gameplay of modern games that i so despise the concept that i need a reward for everything i do in order to do it because the core MMORPG gameplay itself is just... not fun.

 

but with all the uproar on the forums with every change made i fear the dev are being too distracted to be really able to focus on that most fundamental problem. without it fixed i don't see how new generations of gamers can be won over to play this genre if they have experienced how fun games (on their own without counting social elements) can be? without adapting to these new players the games of old cannot last.

 

yet with the uprisings in 5.0 i saw that the rigid combat system can be tweaked to be somewhat interesting. still far from perfect but it's a start. now imagine the devs iterating on this with constant feedback. imagine combat encounters becoming more dynamic and less repetitive/predictable and therefore more immersive such that even fighting a lot of trash will be enjoyable (regardless of rewards). yeah, i find the current skipping of trash is the blatant depiction of how broken MMORPG gameplay is!

 

and perhaps even imagine this game bringing back a very old element of tabletop RPGs: the "dungeon master". the person responsible for making every run onto a dungeon a unique experience (by partially controlling mobs/environment placements and their reactions to player actions) may sound hard to implement but there is already one game that did just that: Left4Dead. yes, to shame all the MMORPGs it was a shooter that managed to revive this core idea of RPGs and it had incredible success with it. imagine how OPs, FPs and perhaps even the open world could be fun if we had that. a system, where all your small actions would suddenly matter - not story wise, but through gameplay (e.g. killing that black sun boss for loot might have been a bad idea with all the goons that are now constantly sent after you.. . oh and skipping all the mobs in the last FP run was perhaps also not so wise with the final boss managing to call upon them for help. hmpf)

 

All i see hear is the standard YAHOO I KNOW I SUCK AND NOW I CAN HAS BIS GEAR SUCK IT RAIDERS

[fatsi]

You are not funny, Ben. Stop doing this already.

[Celedaen]

The OP actually has a decent point regarding stagnation of gameplay in MMOs, which would have merited a discussion on its own. But you had to go and wrap your point in condescension against the section of playerbase you disagree with, and throw in a few taunts using words such as whine, conditioning etc.

 

So long as you refuse to empathize with your fellow players there will be no discussion and anything that was worth considering will get buried in the vitriol. Assuming it was a discussion that you were looking for, of course.

 

And I say this as someone who has never done an operation in this game, and haven't even done the new uprisings as they don't appeal to me personally.

[Tsillah]

This RNG gearing is not fun to me. Therefore I cancelled my sub and I've not seen any reason yet to resub.

 

You can try your best to try and prove how wrong people are to complain, but you can't. I don't enjoy it, so I will not play it.

 

The conditioning I needed to break free from was believing it was acceptable to spend more and more money on less and less actual content. It's a bit sad if the most exciting thing about a game is spending 150 bucks a month on cartel packs to at least get some new shinies.

 

But that's the biggest conditioning that's been going on: moving the border on what's acceptable for what I spend my money on. I already refuse to play any game that has the name Perfect World on it because they're some of the greatest rip off artists. With the way SWTOR has been going I'm going to have to add BWA to that list.

 

It's just disappointing to spend so much on a game only to find out that they're not investing it back into the game. So I stop investing. That's the only conditioning I needed to be freed from really.

[Halinalle]

I guess it's because they want BIS gear as easily as possible and then they can finally do all the harder SM ops and HM FPs. 4.0 proved that to be fact so why would it change.

[Tsillah]

I guess it's because they want BIS gear as easily as possible and then they can finally do all the harder SM ops and HM FPs. 4.0 proved that to be fact so why would it change.

 

No we don't want BiS gear as easily as possible. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

Edited December 26, 2016 by Tsillah

[Ruskaeth]

If that were even remotely true, the development team would be making radical changes. What we see are small changes but RNG is still here to stay.

Heh... that's entirely objective. Getting the last piece from bosses is pretty fast gearing. As I understood, it'll reward that piece to everyone in the raid - or the token or whatever it is called? However, it does not change the fact that you have to grind amazing amount of time to get to the 240 armorings in case your team needs the extra those provide for Master raiding or something else. Previously, changing roles for your raid team was a possibility, people could cover for others so more raids would happen. WIth this system, not so much and that is a problem.

 

BW, just get over it, your RNG attempt is a failure.

 

For me this update is a fiasco. I used to play all healing and dps classes on HM/NiM raids and that provided variety and fun to me. Now, without much grind, that is no longer possible. That or having to grind credits and mats to get those crafted? Seriously BW, I know I am a minority but please Ben, Ben, Ben Ben, do explain how do you think easier gearing hurt the game and how does the current version of gearing help the game? If you can explain that, I am most curious. As for an answer, please, for crying out loud BW, get yourself an UX TEAM before it's too late. You are flailing in the dark now.

 

Also, BW, could you please make credits legacy wide. This is like 2005 not having those like that.

Edited December 26, 2016 by Ruskaeth

[Transcendent]

but yeah, with their change of direction they got new players in like me that can't find fun in most of the aspects of MMORPGs. naturally i therefore don't think i'll find much in common with old veterans of the genre. and beware: BW is aiming to reach out to those other audiences. should they succeed there will be a lot of change to swallow for veterans i fear.

 

Well unless they're going to seriously upgrade the game engine (new shinies!) and upgrade the mob AI which is seriously awful in this game, hence stale gameplay due to lack of challenge? I don't see the "new players" being pulled in sticking around for longer than the story itself.

 

At which point does the MMO become a monthly subscription cost for a single player RPG?

 

A fair few players enjoy running the harder content for the challenge, for which you require gear (and yes the set bonus does make a difference here for some players). Equally step into PvP without that set bonus? Not going to end well for you as a player.

 

I'm failing to see the point of this conversation? Who are you trying to convince about set bonus gear, or gearing in general, this is fundamental to a solid RPG game and has been for a very long time.

 

Or are you one of those players who think something like an RTS works well without base building and resource management? That's a similar analogy, core mechanics define the genre the game is in. It's also like having a shooter without guns, or a racing game without anything to race.

 

I guess this is the trouble with the "new generation" of gamers, they don't want to have to put any effort into things, which is why we end up where we are now, dumbed down gameplay systems which don't require any mental capability to figure out.

[Eli_Porter]

The RNG progression system is basically a diminishing returns system for gear progression. The further along you get, the less likely you are to get equip-able gear. This is to encourage playing on your alts while at the same time keeping a progression system alive on your main.

 

With a static progression system, the farther along you get the easier it becomes to max out a character due to your power. But once you max out a character, you no longer have a progression system to return to on that character.

 

 

I like the RNG system, but only if:

 

1. The hardest content (NiM ops) and access to the best drop tables (T3) isn't gated by more than a month of casual grinding.

 

2. Build-defining pieces of gear (Set pieces) require significantly less RNG to obtain.

Edited December 26, 2016 by Eli_Porter

[Sundragon]

Some people don't want to work for their gear. If that's how you feel, don't let the door hit you on your way out.

[Halinalle]

No we don't want BiS gear as easily as possible. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

 

Don't try to deny it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Path_of_least_resistance

Edited December 26, 2016 by Halinalle

[Transcendent]

Some people don't want to work for their gear. If that's how you feel, don't let the door hit you on your way out.

 

Do you actually have something constructive to add to the conversation?

[Snowred]

normally i'm not much annoyed by the typical forum whining (with their usual doom & gloop + "i quit" extortion attempts) that comes with every change in every game that has a forum. yeah, that's the nature of forums.

 

but with 5.0 gearing change i see some old veterans clinging to a (computer-) stone age gameplay system that prevents the game from evolving. and that clinging to a past long gone is eventually bad for everyone.

 

seriously, why do players focus so much on grinding gear as their main activity? don't they know that playing games can actually be fun out of itself? how can repeating/grinding through content that plays the same every single time just to get stats so one can play the next higher 'difficulty' which is mostly the very same gameplay with increased mob stats to undo the gear progression previously made be considered... fun? how much conditioning have MMORPGs inflicted onto these player that they cannot break free from it? that (skinner box) system may have worked for the very first online games where technical and financial limitations didn't allow for much more. but today?

 

and what's all the fuzz about having no new OPS if all they they are is just upsacled FPs. i mean just scale down mob stats appropriately and you could play them with 4 players as FPs. the gameplay would stay nearly the same with the biggest change being a better FPS rate. the number of player just doesn't feel meaningful in any way. but worst of all their replay value is next to null once you figured out the mechanics (or googled it to begin with to save yourself being kicked by a vet).

 

maybe it's because i am from a different generation of gamers that didn't play these first online games and i got too used to the pure entertainment value of the raw gameplay of modern games that i so despise the concept that i need a reward for everything i do in order to do it because the core MMORPG gameplay itself is just... not fun.

 

but with all the uproar on the forums with every change made i fear the dev are being too distracted to be really able to focus on that most fundamental problem. without it fixed i don't see how new generations of gamers can be won over to play this genre if they have experienced how fun games (on their own without counting social elements) can be? without adapting to these new players the games of old cannot last.

 

yet with the uprisings in 5.0 i saw that the rigid combat system can be tweaked to be somewhat interesting. still far from perfect but it's a start. now imagine the devs iterating on this with constant feedback. imagine combat encounters becoming more dynamic and less repetitive/predictable and therefore more immersive such that even fighting a lot of trash will be enjoyable (regardless of rewards). yeah, i find the current skipping of trash is the blatant depiction of how broken MMORPG gameplay is!

 

and perhaps even imagine this game bringing back a very old element of tabletop RPGs: the "dungeon master". the person responsible for making every run onto a dungeon a unique experience (by partially controlling mobs/environment placements and their reactions to player actions) may sound hard to implement but there is already one game that did just that: Left4Dead. yes, to shame all the MMORPGs it was a shooter that managed to revive this core idea of RPGs and it had incredible success with it. imagine how OPs, FPs and perhaps even the open world could be fun if we had that. a system, where all your small actions would suddenly matter - not story wise, but through gameplay (e.g. killing that black sun boss for loot might have been a bad idea with all the goons that are now constantly sent after you.. . oh and skipping all the mobs in the last FP run was perhaps also not so wise with the final boss managing to call upon them for help. hmpf)

 

This game is a stone age MMO it's 5 years old and it's in a time warp going backwards not forwards. You use the word imagine quite a bit there sadly for you the devs have no imagination.

[DarthSpuds]

Some people don't want to work for their gear. If that's how you feel, don't let the door hit you on your way out.

 

A dog with diarrhoea spouts more sense than you.

 

All The Best

[Forren-Midosea]

Don't try to deny it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Path_of_least_resistance

 

ignorant....

[Sarfux]

I will say one post and one post only since I've been away. I will not be dragged any longer into a heated debate on the forums with people that dislike the game but are still here for some reason

 

BioWare is trying to push development of new systems in mmorpgs for gearing, to expand the way we get gear. But there are those that will NOT let that happen because they are reluctant to change or anything new happening whatsoever. Yes, they will adjust the numbers with time. Yes, they will figure out new ways to please us all. They will listen to feedback of mostly people in game, and of some on here meaning the rational and logical ones, and they will adjust numbers based on that.

 

I feel as though many mmo players cling to the past and are reluctant to change. Especially if that change is a brand new system for the game that was never in it. They don't let anything really "get going" because they don't like it and just like their own thing and that's it. That's why there is nothing NEW coming in the mmorpg genre. Because there are those that won't take it for what it's worth.

 

But, keep hatin' See ya guys. Just had to chime in here and say the new system is staying. Don't worry, the numbers will be tweaked and they will listen to your concerns. They listen, whether you think they do or not is not an issue. I know this, trust me I've never led you wrong. Game is not going anywhere. It will be here in 2020 and beyond. I guarantee you that. Just like you all proclaim it will "be dead" within 6 or 8 months or something like that. Just stop with that nonsense. That's trash talk.

 

Just enjoy the game for what it is. Have concerns, questions and thought filled posts. But no need to come to bashing the game or not letting new system in mmorpgs have a chance to even get going before you jump down the devs' throats. They will adjust the numbers and all that. It's mmos. Numbers and things are always changed. Just remember to stop being so negative and enjoy what you have in front of you.

 

I now pronounce you, to proceed with biting my head clean off!

[Wayshuba]

I feel as though many mmo players cling to the past and are reluctant to change.

 

I respectfully disagree with your assessment of this sentence. MMO Gamers are willing to change quite often - to other MMOs if need be. What MMO Gamers will rarely tolerate, is garbage systems implemented by egotistical developers who don't even play the game they are responsible for especially after their patience has been worn to the bone with no significant group content released in over two years.

[Sargrith]

Interesting. Reading this thread I think I noticed a few things. First the white knights have played through 4.0 and didn't complain then. They are playing now and aren't willing to allow complaints now.

 

Second those who dislike the change are considering leaving because of the changes or at the least are less inclined to keep playing.

 

So what if Bioware actually listens, they actually roll the 5.0 gearing back. What if Bioware does what they say and makes the changes people are actually asking for? Well they retain customers. The white knights wont leave either way, so any change is fine with them. The rest of us normal players will have a game we enjoyed and will stay. Win win for Bioware.

 

So what happens if Bioware continues to not listen? Well 5.0 continues to drive off players. Continues to fester and wreck every other aspect of the game and continues to make anything good Bioware adds to the game meaningless. Care in point, the story, it was ok but because its worthless as a method for grinding cxp it is over looked and barely touched. They kept making changes to force people to play their "new" content and people are, they are grinding the veteran uprisings to dust...but only the quickest one, not all just the one. Because this game isn't about story anymore, it isn't about fun, its all about the grind. People will grind until they get tired of it, then they either give up and leave or they go back to doing whatever part of the game they actually enjoy. Problem is few people enjoy doing something with no hope of any reward, and this system takes away your hope for a reward being anywhere near the value of what your doing. The one player who hit 300 rank....did he have a complete set? Was he still rocking a 230 armoring? No and Yes, the grind is a false hope and eventually people will come to the conclusion. Then what? Well RP, hanging wth friends, and slowly but surely the game settles into its bed. I've seen terrible updates in games before. They kill all growth the game had, yes many times the game lingers on years after but it has for all times stopped growing. Some still managed to release content, LoTRo is one such game, it lingers and surprisingly enough keeps rolling towards a known ending point. I have been a lifetime sub there for years, I might log on twice in a year of the last 3, but they merged servers and keep adding new content. But everyone knows the end will come, and they are ok with it. If we are with this game well drive off new players, drive off the old ones. SWTOR like LOTRO has a built in core following that will stay till the end. If Bioware is ok with that being their remaining customers they can listen to the white knights and make an unfun game out of it. But if they hope to grow once again they need to listen to those who wont stay no matter what, they need to listen to those who tell them the hard truths. Choose, but choose wisely and choose soon.

[ZETA_SCORPII]

It's pretty clear that casual players (solo and tactical FP players) enjoy the new system. That's cool because you can gear up doing everything "casual". For those who enjoy raiding, the new system is garbage.

 

Someone in TS the other night brought up a great point. They said the reason why you get more cxp (faster) in Uprisings over Operations is so EA can show the board that more people are playing Uprisings over Ops. This will give them the argument that people enjoy Uprisings over Ops and therefore have the excuse for not creating new Ops.

 

Even with the new changes I don't see a reason to resub. At first I thought each boss in an Op would drop an assembled piece, but it's actually a RNG chance minus the last boss. This combined with a horrible grind to 300 that doesn't even guarantee you'll have BIS gear just makes the game frustrating. You don't need BIS to clear everything in the game, but without real, new endgame content there is really nothing motivating raiders to stay. It's pretty sad because once you get your feet wet in Ops most ppl find them incredibly rewarding. Raiders won't stay without proper motivation IMO.

Edited December 26, 2016 by ZETA_SCORPII

[Neshira]

While I agree that the whining, the "i quit" threads and the overall negativity and rudeness is ridiculous I don't agree with your sentiment.

 

The reason is that I believe everyone has their own way of playing and their own idea of "Fun" in a game. Telling someone that their way isn't right is just as bad as the people who are insulting the devs. It's doing the same thing that the devs are doing in the first place to make people angry: conveniently ignoring that not everyone likes what you like.

[doelow]

I like the skinner box system, OP. I don't want to play Gary's Mod or Left 4 Dead.

[Sundragon]

It's rather simple. If you don't find this game's gearing system fun, please just quit.

[curulz]

It's rather simple. If you don't find this game's gearing system fun, please just quit.

 

if you don't like other opinions on the matter, please just quit

[Sundown]

It's rather simple. If you don't find this game's gearing system fun, please just quit.

Only quitters quit. Some people liked the game better before, so they try to change direction. It is perfectly legit to do so. Of course, if nothing gets better, those people will eventually quit. Which is a loss for all of us as I see it.